Tesla is fast...

[John Larkin]

On Mon, 23 May 2022 21:02:30 -0700 (PDT), Ed Lee
<edward.ming.lee@gmail.com> wrote:

On Monday, May 23, 2022 at 8:30:22 PM UTC-7, Flyguy wrote:
On Sunday, May 22, 2022 at 7:47:12 AM UTC-7, Ed Lee wrote:
You won\'t get that from a battery. No battery of any chemistry is of much use after 5 years, used a lot or not.
My 10 years old Leaf battery is still 60% usable after 80,000 miles. Mine is outside the \"no battery\" range.
WOW! That means your range to total discharge is a grand FORTY FOUR MILES (which you don\'t dare use, so 30 miles is more realistic)!! Your trips will have to be within a 15 mile radius. The cost to replace the battery is roughly $5k, more than the car is worth.

I have another 10kwh battery siting in the car, connected to the OBC (On Board Charger) output. Still trying to figure out how to trick the OBC to enable the output. Look like i need to build a dummy self charger, which is charging from the vehicle battery, but pumping energy from the auxiliary battery.

I have spend around $1k for parts so far.

That may be a fun hobby, but it doesn\'t sound like sensible
transportation.

--

If a man will begin with certainties, he shall end with doubts,
but if he will be content to begin with doubts he shall end in certainties.
Francis Bacon

 

[Ed Lee]

On Tuesday, May 24, 2022 at 9:48:51 AM UTC-7, John Larkin wrote:

On Mon, 23 May 2022 21:02:30 -0700 (PDT), Ed Lee
edward....@gmail.com> wrote:

On Monday, May 23, 2022 at 8:30:22 PM UTC-7, Flyguy wrote:
On Sunday, May 22, 2022 at 7:47:12 AM UTC-7, Ed Lee wrote:
You won\'t get that from a battery. No battery of any chemistry is of much use after 5 years, used a lot or not.
My 10 years old Leaf battery is still 60% usable after 80,000 miles. Mine is outside the \"no battery\" range.
WOW! That means your range to total discharge is a grand FORTY FOUR MILES (which you don\'t dare use, so 30 miles is more realistic)!! Your trips will have to be within a 15 mile radius. The cost to replace the battery is roughly $5k, more than the car is worth.

I have another 10kwh battery siting in the car, connected to the OBC (On Board Charger) output. Still trying to figure out how to trick the OBC to enable the output. Look like i need to build a dummy self charger, which is charging from the vehicle battery, but pumping energy from the auxiliary battery.

I have spend around $1k for parts so far.
That may be a fun hobby, but it doesn\'t sound like sensible transportation.

40 miles are enough 90% of the time. For long distance, I can stuff extra batteries in. I think i can stuff in 30 to 50 kwhr eventually.

EVs are not for everyone. EV/ICE will have to co-exist.

 

[Commander Kinsey]

On Tue, 17 May 2022 11:53:27 +0100, John Doe <always.look@message.header> wrote:

Ricky <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:

Who gives a shit about your 36 year old car? You seem to be obsessed
with the idea that it means something. What do you think your 36 year
old car means in the transition to BEVs that is taking place in the
world?

I wonder if it\'s taking place in Germany where electric power is a little
scarce these days thanks to them giving up nuclear and now being
sanctioned by Russia.

It\'s the rest of the world doing the sanctioning, shooting themselves in the foot.

You do realize this is happening, and there\'s pretty much nothing you
can do to stop it, right? In 10 years, virtually every car sold in the
US will be a BEV...

This is a reality that you may not prefer, but it is your future,
whether you decide to like it or not.

Sounds like wishful thinking. Seems diesel engines are doing well now. My
next-door neighbor bought a fancy diesel pickup truck six months ago. Gets
great gas mileage.

Maybe when electric vehicles are made to use big batteries instead of a
billion small batteries...

The batteries cost too much to make and there isn\'t enough electricity to charge them all.

Why are they called BEVs? That\'s tautological. Of course batteries are electric. Can\'t we just call them electric cars?

 

[Commander Kinsey]

On Sat, 21 May 2022 23:02:02 +0100, ke...@kjwdesigns.com <keith@kjwdesigns.com> wrote:

On Saturday, 21 May 2022 at 09:02:01 UTC-7, Commander Kinsey wrote:
...
there\'s no reason why they can\'t last like an ICE. The batteries in most BEVs are warrantied for 100,000 or more miles. Do you believe they are going to drop out of the car shortly after that?

You won\'t get that from a battery. No battery of any chemistry is of much use after 5 years, used a lot or not.

I guess my 4 1/2 year old Tesla is going to expire soon then.

Most likely. The chemistry only allows a handful of years or 1000 charges.

And I bet that \"warranty\" only covers the first user.

No - it\'s transferable.

Tesla don\'t even transfer the optional extras. They STEAL them back.

 

[ke...@kjwdesigns.com]

On Saturday, 28 May 2022 at 13:32:53 UTC-7, Commander Kinsey wrote:

On Sat, 21 May 2022 23:02:02 +0100, ke...@kjwdesigns.com <ke...@kjwdesigns.com> wrote:
On Saturday, 21 May 2022 at 09:02:01 UTC-7, Commander Kinsey wrote:
...
there\'s no reason why they can\'t last like an ICE. The batteries in most BEVs are warrantied for 100,000 or more miles. Do you believe they are going to drop out of the car shortly after that?

You won\'t get that from a battery. No battery of any chemistry is of much use after 5 years, used a lot or not.

I guess my 4 1/2 year old Tesla is going to expire soon then.

Most likely. The chemistry only allows a handful of years or 1000 charges.

Sigh...

Tesla actually claim 1500 cycles and warranties them for 8 years. The latest batteries promise even longer lives.

1500 cycles for the Model 3 (358miles EPA rated) is over 500,000 miles.

I need to tell my friend with a 9 year old Tesla that his shouldn\'t be working any more and it is his imagination that lets him keep driving it.

The 8 year old battery in my MacBook with 94% capacity is also dead then, that\'s funny - I\'m using it right now, so if you don\'t get this post it is because the battery died...

And I bet that \"warranty\" only covers the first user.

No - it\'s transferable.

Tesla don\'t even transfer the optional extras. They STEAL them back.

There is a grain of truth in that but the only \"optional extra\" that is in question is the \"Full Self-Driving\" and that is transferable through private sellers provided it was originally purchased with the car when new.

It may or may not be transferable through a dealer.

kw

 

[ke...@kjwdesigns.com]

On Saturday, 28 May 2022 at 13:31:49 UTC-7, Commander Kinsey wrote:

On Tue, 17 May 2022 11:53:27 +0100, John Doe <alway...@message.header> wrote:

Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

Who gives a shit about your 36 year old car? You seem to be obsessed
with the idea that it means something. What do you think your 36 year
old car means in the transition to BEVs that is taking place in the
world?

I wonder if it\'s taking place in Germany where electric power is a little
scarce these days thanks to them giving up nuclear and now being
sanctioned by Russia.

It\'s the rest of the world doing the sanctioning, shooting themselves in the foot.

You do realize this is happening, and there\'s pretty much nothing you
can do to stop it, right? In 10 years, virtually every car sold in the
US will be a BEV...

This is a reality that you may not prefer, but it is your future,
whether you decide to like it or not.

Sounds like wishful thinking. Seems diesel engines are doing well now. My
next-door neighbor bought a fancy diesel pickup truck six months ago. Gets
great gas mileage.

Maybe when electric vehicles are made to use big batteries instead of a
billion small batteries...

The batteries cost too much to make and there isn\'t enough electricity to charge them all.

There\'s plenty of electricity - by some calculations it would only increase electrical consumption by 15-20% if every car was electric. But since the majority are charged at night when power stations are sitting idle not much increase in infrastructure is required.

Why are they called BEVs? That\'s tautological. Of course batteries are electric. Can\'t we just call them electric cars?

That is to distinguish them from Hybrid Electric Vehicles, \"HEVs\".

kw

 

[Commander Kinsey]

On Sat, 28 May 2022 22:49:29 +0100, ke...@kjwdesigns.com <keith@kjwdesigns.com> wrote:

On Saturday, 28 May 2022 at 13:32:53 UTC-7, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sat, 21 May 2022 23:02:02 +0100, ke...@kjwdesigns.com <ke...@kjwdesigns.com> wrote:
On Saturday, 21 May 2022 at 09:02:01 UTC-7, Commander Kinsey wrote:
...
there\'s no reason why they can\'t last like an ICE. The batteries in most BEVs are warrantied for 100,000 or more miles. Do you believe they are going to drop out of the car shortly after that?

You won\'t get that from a battery. No battery of any chemistry is of much use after 5 years, used a lot or not.

I guess my 4 1/2 year old Tesla is going to expire soon then.

Most likely. The chemistry only allows a handful of years or 1000 charges.

Sigh...

Tesla actually claim 1500 cycles

So fuck all.

> and warranties them for 8 years.

My petrol car is still running after 20 years. So two battery changes would have cost....

> The latest batteries promise even longer lives.

I see vague promises all the time about batteries.

> 1500 cycles for the Model 3 (358miles EPA rated) is over 500,000 miles.

Do you really think you\'ll get that 358 miles?

> I need to tell my friend with a 9 year old Tesla that his shouldn\'t be working any more and it is his imagination that lets him keep driving it.

And how much did this Tesla cost? Tesla are not affordable cars for the majority. Compare with a petrol car of the same value, oh wait, they don\'t make battery cars that cheap.

> The 8 year old battery in my MacBook with 94% capacity is also dead then, that\'s funny - I\'m using it right now, so if you don\'t get this post it is because the battery died...

You hardly use collossal amounts of power from that. Now try running a science program like Boinc or Folding on it using the battery.

And I bet that \"warranty\" only covers the first user.

No - it\'s transferable.

Tesla don\'t even transfer the optional extras. They STEAL them back.

There is a grain of truth in that

It\'s either true or it isn\'t. If you buy a new Tesla, get all the extras, then sell it to me 3 years later, what happens?

 

[Commander Kinsey]

On Sat, 28 May 2022 22:54:17 +0100, ke...@kjwdesigns.com <keith@kjwdesigns.com> wrote:

On Saturday, 28 May 2022 at 13:31:49 UTC-7, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Tue, 17 May 2022 11:53:27 +0100, John Doe <alway...@message.header> wrote:

Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

Who gives a shit about your 36 year old car? You seem to be obsessed
with the idea that it means something. What do you think your 36 year
old car means in the transition to BEVs that is taking place in the
world?

I wonder if it\'s taking place in Germany where electric power is a little
scarce these days thanks to them giving up nuclear and now being
sanctioned by Russia.

It\'s the rest of the world doing the sanctioning, shooting themselves in the foot.

You do realize this is happening, and there\'s pretty much nothing you
can do to stop it, right? In 10 years, virtually every car sold in the
US will be a BEV...

This is a reality that you may not prefer, but it is your future,
whether you decide to like it or not.

Sounds like wishful thinking. Seems diesel engines are doing well now. My
next-door neighbor bought a fancy diesel pickup truck six months ago. Gets
great gas mileage.

Maybe when electric vehicles are made to use big batteries instead of a
billion small batteries...

The batteries cost too much to make and there isn\'t enough electricity to charge them all.

There\'s plenty of electricity

It went up by FIFTY percent recently and is due to do so again in autumn in the UK. A drastically higher price indicates a severe shortage. The UK government is now permitting drilling for oil and gas in new areas and forgetting the green crap. I\'m actually looking forward to a shortage of energy, it\'ll make life fun.

> by some calculations it would only increase electrical consumption by 15-20% if every car was electric.

Funny, by some calculations it would double it.

> But since the majority are charged at night when power stations are sitting idle not much increase in infrastructure is required.

At night the green solar energy is off.

Why are they called BEVs? That\'s tautological. Of course batteries are electric. Can\'t we just call them electric cars?

That is to distinguish them from Hybrid Electric Vehicles, \"HEVs\".

So why not say HEV and EV?

Or why not stop acronyms altogether? For example what is ICE? Apparently it now means internal combustion engine, but when all cars had engines, it meant in car entertainment (it has a decent stereo).

 

[Commander Kinsey]

On Tue, 17 May 2022 20:23:09 +0100, Ed Lee <edward.ming.lee@gmail.com> wrote:

On Tuesday, May 17, 2022 at 12:10:26 PM UTC-7, John Doe wrote:
Using a jillion tiny cells makes a difference because if any of those cells
fail, the whole car explodes and kills the driver.

Then the BMS is not doing it\'s job. Proper BMS should monitor each cell and alarm if they overheat.

Which means lots of tiny cells means more monitoring.

 

[Commander Kinsey]

On Wed, 18 May 2022 01:50:51 +0100, ke...@kjwdesigns.com <keith@kjwdesigns.com> wrote:

On Tuesday, 17 May 2022 at 12:10:26 UTC-7, John Doe wrote:
Using a jillion tiny cells makes a difference because if any of those cells
fail, the whole car explodes and kills the driver.

That is not true. The car is very unlikely to explode if a single cell fails. Even if multiple cells fail an explosion is also extremely unlikely.

From the NTHSA report - \"Lithium-ion Battery Safety Issues for Electric and Plug-in Hybrid Vehicles\".

\"Regarding the risk of electrochemical failure, the report concludes that the propensity and severity of fires and explosions from the accidental ignition of flammable electrolytic solvents used in Li-ion battery systems are anticipated to be somewhat comparable to or perhaps slightly less than those for gasoline or diesel vehicular fuels.\"
https://www.nhtsa.gov/sites/nhtsa.gov/files/documents/12848-lithiumionsafetyhybrids_101217-v3-tag.pdf

A cell can overheat under exceptional circumstances but a small cell may in actual fact be safer than larger ones as the energy of a single cell failure might be contained within its own steel container and not affect the rest of the battery to the point of failure. The fuse or other disconnect for the cell would electrically isolate the failed cell from the rest of the battery. If the cell breaches its own enclosure it could spread the failure to other cells.

My mobile phone\'s battery has expanded and ripped the back off the phone. Should I be worried?

 

[Commander Kinsey]

On Fri, 20 May 2022 02:22:39 +0100, ke...@kjwdesigns.com <keith@kjwdesigns.com> wrote:

On Wednesday, 18 May 2022 at 22:38:46 UTC-7, Flyguy wrote:
...
They can \"anticipate\" until the cows come home. What that boils down to is an uneducated guess. Until you have decades of data to analyze you are just blowing smoke. Just look at airline accidents; the B747 had decades of flight experience when TWA flight 800 exploded. And these planes undergo far more rigorous testing and evaluation than EVs do.

Hardly \"uneducated\". It is backed up by the scientific reasoning.

We also do have some years of statistics showing the rate of EV car fires is actually lower that conventional vehicles:

https://www.autoinsuranceez.com/gas-vs-electric-car-fires/

That was a rather bad choice of airplane crash you chose as it was caused by fumes igniting in the fuel tank.

Of course if you like driving around with the energy equivalent of 60 lbs of dynamite in the back of your car that\'s fine by me.

I used to drive around with propane gas in the boot of my car. Fuck safety. Enjoy speed.

 

[Commander Kinsey]

On Thu, 19 May 2022 07:44:38 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:

On Thursday, May 19, 2022 at 1:38:46 AM UTC-4, Flyguy wrote:
On Tuesday, May 17, 2022 at 5:50:55 PM UTC-7, ke...@kjwdesigns.com wrote:
On Tuesday, 17 May 2022 at 12:10:26 UTC-7, John Doe wrote:
Using a jillion tiny cells makes a difference because if any of those cells
fail, the whole car explodes and kills the driver.
That is not true. The car is very unlikely to explode if a single cell fails. Even if multiple cells fail an explosion is also extremely unlikely.

From the NTHSA report - \"Lithium-ion Battery Safety Issues for Electric and Plug-in Hybrid Vehicles\".

\"Regarding the risk of electrochemical failure, the report concludes that the propensity and severity of fires and explosions from the accidental ignition of flammable electrolytic solvents used in Li-ion battery systems are anticipated to be somewhat comparable to or perhaps slightly less than those for gasoline or diesel vehicular fuels.\"
https://www.nhtsa.gov/sites/nhtsa.gov/files/documents/12848-lithiumionsafetyhybrids_101217-v3-tag.pdf

A cell can overheat under exceptional circumstances but a small cell may in actual fact be safer than larger ones as the energy of a single cell failure might be contained within its own steel container and not affect the rest of the battery to the point of failure. The fuse or other disconnect for the cell would electrically isolate the failed cell from the rest of the battery. If the cell breaches its own enclosure it could spread the failure to other cells.

kw
They can \"anticipate\" until the cows come home. What that boils down to is an uneducated guess. Until you have decades of data to analyze you are just blowing smoke. Just look at airline accidents; the B747 had decades of flight experience when TWA flight 800 exploded. And these planes undergo far more rigorous testing and evaluation than EVs do.

You would seem to be blowing smoke as much as anyone. In the case of TWA flight 800, a fatal airliner accident due to design or construction issues is a very infrequent thing. These causes are much easier to minimize failure rates than the operational issues.

The bottom line is lithium-ion batteries are proving to be very safe in BEVs.

So why can\'t I post you some 18650 cells in the post? Why does the Royal Mail ban batteries in the post?

 

[Commander Kinsey]

On Sat, 21 May 2022 22:57:46 +0100, ke...@kjwdesigns.com <keith@kjwdesigns.com> wrote:

On Friday, 20 May 2022 at 14:17:08 UTC-7, Flyguy wrote:
On Wednesday, May 18, 2022 at 11:44:43 PM UTC-7, Ricky wrote:
On Thursday, May 19, 2022 at 1:38:46 AM UTC-4, Flyguy wrote:
They can \"anticipate\" until the cows come home. What that boils down to is an uneducated guess. Until you have decades of data to analyze you are just blowing smoke. Just look at airline accidents; the B747 had decades of flight experience when TWA flight 800 exploded. And these planes undergo far more rigorous testing and evaluation than EVs do.
You would seem to be blowing smoke as much as anyone. In the case of TWA flight 800, a fatal airliner accident due to design or construction issues is a very infrequent thing. These causes are much easier to minimize failure rates than the operational issues.

The bottom line is lithium-ion batteries are proving to be very safe in BEVs. The failures rates are comparable to the failure rates of fossil fueled vehicles which do burst into flame spontaneously as well. We are simply less worried by the relatively infrequent incidents which are dwarfed by the accident rates of automobiles caused by the operators. BEV issues get a lot of visibility, but are actually less likely.

You didn\'t anticipate that, did you?

--

Rick C.

-++-+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
-++-+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
No comparison whatsoever - the average age of ICE cars is much older than EVs, and fires are much more frequent in old cars.
...
There is some validity to that but fires as a result of accident are actually more likely with newer cars.

Hyundai and Kia have had to recently recall close to half a million recently manufactured cars in the US because of the risk of the cars spontaneously catching fire when turned off - they even recommend parking them outside.

Just don\'t crash one whatever you do.
https://youtu.be/-jiH3mE81zw?t=68

 

[ke...@kjwdesigns.com]

On Saturday, 28 May 2022 at 15:42:16 UTC-7, Commander Kinsey wrote:

On Sat, 28 May 2022 22:49:29 +0100, ke...@kjwdesigns.com <ke...@kjwdesigns.com> wrote:

On Saturday, 28 May 2022 at 13:32:53 UTC-7, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sat, 21 May 2022 23:02:02 +0100, ke...@kjwdesigns.com <ke...@kjwdesigns.com> wrote:
On Saturday, 21 May 2022 at 09:02:01 UTC-7, Commander Kinsey wrote:
...
there\'s no reason why they can\'t last like an ICE. The batteries in most BEVs are warrantied for 100,000 or more miles. Do you believe they are going to drop out of the car shortly after that?

You won\'t get that from a battery. No battery of any chemistry is of much use after 5 years, used a lot or not.

I guess my 4 1/2 year old Tesla is going to expire soon then.

Most likely. The chemistry only allows a handful of years or 1000 charges.

Sigh...

Tesla actually claim 1500 cycles
So fuck all.
and warranties them for 8 years.
My petrol car is still running after 20 years. So two battery changes would have cost....
The latest batteries promise even longer lives.
I see vague promises all the time about batteries.
1500 cycles for the Model 3 (358miles EPA rated) is over 500,000 miles.
Do you really think you\'ll get that 358 miles?
I need to tell my friend with a 9 year old Tesla that his shouldn\'t be working any more and it is his imagination that lets him keep driving it.
And how much did this Tesla cost? Tesla are not affordable cars for the majority. Compare with a petrol car of the same value, oh wait, they don\'t make battery cars that cheap.

A BMW 3 series is very comparable to the Tesla Model 3 in features and costs about the same. The Tesla is higher performance.

The 8 year old battery in my MacBook with 94% capacity is also dead then, that\'s funny - I\'m using it right now, so if you don\'t get this post it is because the battery died...
You hardly use collossal amounts of power from that. Now try running a science program like Boinc or Folding on it using the battery.
And I bet that \"warranty\" only covers the first user.

No - it\'s transferable.

Tesla don\'t even transfer the optional extras. They STEAL them back.

There is a grain of truth in that
It\'s either true or it isn\'t. If you buy a new Tesla, get all the extras, then sell it to me 3 years later, what happens?

I see that you clipped my full response. Here it is again if you missed it first time:

kw>There is a grain of truth in that but the only \"optional extra\" that is in question is the \"Full Self-Driving\" and kw>that is transferable through private sellers provided it was originally purchased with the car when new.

kw>It may or may not be transferable through a dealer.

So yes, if I buy a Tesla and sell it to you 3 years later you get everything I had.

 

[ke...@kjwdesigns.com]

On Saturday, 28 May 2022 at 15:46:31 UTC-7, Commander Kinsey wrote:

On Tue, 17 May 2022 20:23:09 +0100, Ed Lee <edward....@gmail.com> wrote:

On Tuesday, May 17, 2022 at 12:10:26 PM UTC-7, John Doe wrote:
Using a jillion tiny cells makes a difference because if any of those cells
fail, the whole car explodes and kills the driver.

Then the BMS is not doing it\'s job. Proper BMS should monitor each cell and alarm if they overheat.

Which means lots of tiny cells means more monitoring.

No. A group of about 30-40 cells are connected in parallel. They are then monitored as if they were single larger cell as they all have the same voltage.

Only Tesla and Rivian use small cells. All other EV manufacturers uses large cells typically of 20Ah to 60Ah.

kw

 

[ke...@kjwdesigns.com]

On Saturday, 28 May 2022 at 15:48:52 UTC-7, Commander Kinsey wrote:

On Thu, 19 May 2022 07:44:38 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Thursday, May 19, 2022 at 1:38:46 AM UTC-4, Flyguy wrote:
On Tuesday, May 17, 2022 at 5:50:55 PM UTC-7, ke...@kjwdesigns.com wrote:
On Tuesday, 17 May 2022 at 12:10:26 UTC-7, John Doe wrote:
Using a jillion tiny cells makes a difference because if any of those cells
fail, the whole car explodes and kills the driver.
That is not true. The car is very unlikely to explode if a single cell fails. Even if multiple cells fail an explosion is also extremely unlikely.

From the NTHSA report - \"Lithium-ion Battery Safety Issues for Electric and Plug-in Hybrid Vehicles\".

\"Regarding the risk of electrochemical failure, the report concludes that the propensity and severity of fires and explosions from the accidental ignition of flammable electrolytic solvents used in Li-ion battery systems are anticipated to be somewhat comparable to or perhaps slightly less than those for gasoline or diesel vehicular fuels.\"
https://www.nhtsa.gov/sites/nhtsa.gov/files/documents/12848-lithiumionsafetyhybrids_101217-v3-tag.pdf

A cell can overheat under exceptional circumstances but a small cell may in actual fact be safer than larger ones as the energy of a single cell failure might be contained within its own steel container and not affect the rest of the battery to the point of failure. The fuse or other disconnect for the cell would electrically isolate the failed cell from the rest of the battery. If the cell breaches its own enclosure it could spread the failure to other cells.

kw
They can \"anticipate\" until the cows come home. What that boils down to is an uneducated guess. Until you have decades of data to analyze you are just blowing smoke. Just look at airline accidents; the B747 had decades of flight experience when TWA flight 800 exploded. And these planes undergo far more rigorous testing and evaluation than EVs do.

You would seem to be blowing smoke as much as anyone. In the case of TWA flight 800, a fatal airliner accident due to design or construction issues is a very infrequent thing. These causes are much easier to minimize failure rates than the operational issues.

The bottom line is lithium-ion batteries are proving to be very safe in BEVs.

So why can\'t I post you some 18650 cells in the post? Why does the Royal Mail ban batteries in the post?

You can\'t send petrol or propane either.

You are allowed to send lithium batteries when they are inside an electronic device.

kw

 

[Commander Kinsey]

On Sat, 28 May 2022 23:55:13 +0100, ke...@kjwdesigns.com <keith@kjwdesigns.com> wrote:

On Saturday, 28 May 2022 at 15:42:16 UTC-7, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sat, 28 May 2022 22:49:29 +0100, ke...@kjwdesigns.com <ke...@kjwdesigns.com> wrote:

On Saturday, 28 May 2022 at 13:32:53 UTC-7, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sat, 21 May 2022 23:02:02 +0100, ke...@kjwdesigns.com <ke...@kjwdesigns.com> wrote:
On Saturday, 21 May 2022 at 09:02:01 UTC-7, Commander Kinsey wrote:
...
there\'s no reason why they can\'t last like an ICE. The batteries in most BEVs are warrantied for 100,000 or more miles. Do you believe they are going to drop out of the car shortly after that?

You won\'t get that from a battery. No battery of any chemistry is of much use after 5 years, used a lot or not.

I guess my 4 1/2 year old Tesla is going to expire soon then.

Most likely. The chemistry only allows a handful of years or 1000 charges.

Sigh...

Tesla actually claim 1500 cycles
So fuck all.
and warranties them for 8 years.
My petrol car is still running after 20 years. So two battery changes would have cost....
The latest batteries promise even longer lives.
I see vague promises all the time about batteries.
1500 cycles for the Model 3 (358miles EPA rated) is over 500,000 miles.
Do you really think you\'ll get that 358 miles?
I need to tell my friend with a 9 year old Tesla that his shouldn\'t be working any more and it is his imagination that lets him keep driving it.
And how much did this Tesla cost? Tesla are not affordable cars for the majority. Compare with a petrol car of the same value, oh wait, they don\'t make battery cars that cheap.

A BMW 3 series is very comparable to the Tesla Model 3 in features and costs about the same. The Tesla is higher performance.

A BMW is overpriced shit, now look at a VW.

The 8 year old battery in my MacBook with 94% capacity is also dead then, that\'s funny - I\'m using it right now, so if you don\'t get this post it is because the battery died...
You hardly use collossal amounts of power from that. Now try running a science program like Boinc or Folding on it using the battery.
And I bet that \"warranty\" only covers the first user.

No - it\'s transferable.

Tesla don\'t even transfer the optional extras. They STEAL them back.

There is a grain of truth in that
It\'s either true or it isn\'t. If you buy a new Tesla, get all the extras, then sell it to me 3 years later, what happens?

I see that you clipped my full response. Here it is again if you missed it first time:

I only trim things over 5 levels deep when it\'s getting ridiculous.

kw>There is a grain of truth in that but the only \"optional extra\" that is in question is the \"Full Self-Driving\" and kw>that is transferable through private sellers provided it was originally purchased with the car when new.

kw>It may or may not be transferable through a dealer.

So yes, if I buy a Tesla and sell it to you 3 years later you get everything I had.

Not what someone else said in here. Or it may have been in the Einstein forum. Everything - AC, extra acceleration, etc, etc can all be switched off at the factory remotely, and is every time it\'s resold.

 

[Commander Kinsey]

On Sun, 29 May 2022 00:02:26 +0100, ke...@kjwdesigns.com <keith@kjwdesigns.com> wrote:

On Saturday, 28 May 2022 at 15:46:31 UTC-7, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Tue, 17 May 2022 20:23:09 +0100, Ed Lee <edward....@gmail.com> wrote:

On Tuesday, May 17, 2022 at 12:10:26 PM UTC-7, John Doe wrote:
Using a jillion tiny cells makes a difference because if any of those cells
fail, the whole car explodes and kills the driver.

Then the BMS is not doing it\'s job. Proper BMS should monitor each cell and alarm if they overheat.

Which means lots of tiny cells means more monitoring.

No. A group of about 30-40 cells are connected in parallel. They are then monitored as if they were single larger cell as they all have the same voltage.

So one of those 30-40 cells shorts out, then what? It\'s getting fucking hot with the other 29-39 cells rapidly charging it, and there\'s no sensor on it? The other 29-39 look just fine, all is well, oops driver dead in a fireball.

> Only Tesla and Rivian use small cells. All other EV manufacturers uses large cells typically of 20Ah to 60Ah.

Why this difference between manufacturers?

 

[Commander Kinsey]

On Sun, 29 May 2022 00:10:45 +0100, ke...@kjwdesigns.com <keith@kjwdesigns.com> wrote:

On Saturday, 28 May 2022 at 15:48:52 UTC-7, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Thu, 19 May 2022 07:44:38 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Thursday, May 19, 2022 at 1:38:46 AM UTC-4, Flyguy wrote:
On Tuesday, May 17, 2022 at 5:50:55 PM UTC-7, ke...@kjwdesigns.com wrote:
On Tuesday, 17 May 2022 at 12:10:26 UTC-7, John Doe wrote:
Using a jillion tiny cells makes a difference because if any of those cells
fail, the whole car explodes and kills the driver.
That is not true. The car is very unlikely to explode if a single cell fails. Even if multiple cells fail an explosion is also extremely unlikely.

From the NTHSA report - \"Lithium-ion Battery Safety Issues for Electric and Plug-in Hybrid Vehicles\".

\"Regarding the risk of electrochemical failure, the report concludes that the propensity and severity of fires and explosions from the accidental ignition of flammable electrolytic solvents used in Li-ion battery systems are anticipated to be somewhat comparable to or perhaps slightly less than those for gasoline or diesel vehicular fuels.\"
https://www.nhtsa.gov/sites/nhtsa.gov/files/documents/12848-lithiumionsafetyhybrids_101217-v3-tag.pdf

A cell can overheat under exceptional circumstances but a small cell may in actual fact be safer than larger ones as the energy of a single cell failure might be contained within its own steel container and not affect the rest of the battery to the point of failure. The fuse or other disconnect for the cell would electrically isolate the failed cell from the rest of the battery. If the cell breaches its own enclosure it could spread the failure to other cells.

kw
They can \"anticipate\" until the cows come home. What that boils down to is an uneducated guess. Until you have decades of data to analyze you are just blowing smoke. Just look at airline accidents; the B747 had decades of flight experience when TWA flight 800 exploded. And these planes undergo far more rigorous testing and evaluation than EVs do.

You would seem to be blowing smoke as much as anyone. In the case of TWA flight 800, a fatal airliner accident due to design or construction issues is a very infrequent thing. These causes are much easier to minimize failure rates than the operational issues.

The bottom line is lithium-ion batteries are proving to be very safe in BEVs.

So why can\'t I post you some 18650 cells in the post? Why does the Royal Mail ban batteries in the post?

You can\'t send petrol or propane either.

You are allowed to send lithium batteries when they are inside an electronic device.

Why would that make them any safer? In fact I\'d say it\'s more likely they could short. I bought some 18650 tagged cells in the post, they put them in nice little plastic tubes, no possibility of shorting. They came by Royal Mail, not sure if they had an agreement with them or they just lied about the contents. They do check things that seem odd, like when I sent some aerosol cans in the post, you could hear they were aerosols when you shook the parcel. The bastards \"destroyed\" them, more likely the workforce took them home and kept them.

 

[ke...@kjwdesigns.com]

On Saturday, 28 May 2022 at 16:49:59 UTC-7, Commander Kinsey wrote:

On Sun, 29 May 2022 00:02:26 +0100, ke...@kjwdesigns.com <ke...@kjwdesigns.com> wrote:

On Saturday, 28 May 2022 at 15:46:31 UTC-7, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Tue, 17 May 2022 20:23:09 +0100, Ed Lee <edward....@gmail.com> wrote:

On Tuesday, May 17, 2022 at 12:10:26 PM UTC-7, John Doe wrote:
Using a jillion tiny cells makes a difference because if any of those cells
fail, the whole car explodes and kills the driver.

Then the BMS is not doing it\'s job. Proper BMS should monitor each cell and alarm if they overheat.

Which means lots of tiny cells means more monitoring.

No. A group of about 30-40 cells are connected in parallel. They are then monitored as if they were single larger cell as they all have the same voltage.
So one of those 30-40 cells shorts out, then what? It\'s getting fucking hot with the other 29-39 cells rapidly charging it, and there\'s no sensor on it? The other 29-39 look just fine, all is well, oops driver dead in a fireball.

In the case of Tesla they implement the bond wire from the cell to the common connection asa fusible link to protect against that eventuality.

I expect Rivian has a similar feature.

What actually happens is that most shorting failures occur within the body of the cell and the short itself gets cleared in a similar fashion to what happens in plastic film capacitors when a breakdown occurs. This would also apply to larger format cells.

Only Tesla and Rivian use small cells. All other EV manufacturers uses large cells typically of 20Ah to 60Ah.
Why this difference between manufacturers?

Each manufacturer has their own ideas about how to optimize cost, space, weight etc.

Tesla started out by exploiting the fact that 18650 cells were the most common mass production cells. The manufacturing processes and equipment were optimized to make those at lowest cost.

Larger format cells have the potential advantage of less material used to package the cell with a possibility of improving energy to weight ratio.

Tesla cells have gradually been increasing in size while keeping a similar style. The original 18650 has progressed to 2170 and next to 4680. The cell numbering system is the diameter in mm followed by the height in tenths of a mm so an 18650 is 18mm die by 65.0mm tall.

WIth these changes (and others) Tesla claims to have improved cost, energy density and power density and as well as reductions in use of raw materials while expecting greatly improved lifetime.

kw