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Sad day for Intel and America...

W

Whoey Louie

Guest
https://theprint.in/world/intel-corps-plan-to-outsource-manufacturing-is-the-end-of-an-era-in-us-tech/467936/


\"Intel Corp’s plan to outsource manufacturing is the end of an era in US tech
When most other US chip companies shut or sold domestic plants years ago, Intel held out, a strategy that is now in tatters, with the company’s factories struggling to keep up.\"

CEO Bob Swan made the stunning announcement on Friday, during an earnings
call. It sent Intel down 16%, AMD up 16%. Bottom line, Intel first screwed
10nm, they are only now recovering and catching up on that. Meanwhile
Swan announced that 7nm is all screwed up, yields are terrible, it has
slipped another 6 months on top of at least six months earlier. Intel
won\'t be in production until 2022/23. MEanwhile AMC is producing 7nm
via TSMC right now. By the time Intel is on 7nm, TSMC will be on 3 nm.
In short, Intel has gone from being a node ahead to a node behind.
And Swan says the answer is Intel is considering outsourcing production
to other companies!

I remember discussing this here a couple years ago, warning that this is
what happens when you let accountants take over high tech companies.
I remember the usual suspects here arguing it was no big deal, it\'s just
\"managing\". Well, the idiot bean counter from Ebay that somehow would
up running Intel sure has screwed this up really badly. It\'s unlikely
Intel will ever recover. And it validates AMD being apparently right
and early to get out of fabs years ago and Apple choosing to ditch Intel.
It\'s a sad day for the future of high tech in America.
 
J

John Larkin

Guest
On Tue, 28 Jul 2020 16:40:08 -0700 (PDT), Whoey Louie
<trader4@optonline.net> wrote:

https://theprint.in/world/intel-corps-plan-to-outsource-manufacturing-is-the-end-of-an-era-in-us-tech/467936/


\"Intel Corp’s plan to outsource manufacturing is the end of an era in US tech
When most other US chip companies shut or sold domestic plants years ago, Intel held out, a strategy that is now in tatters, with the company’s factories struggling to keep up.\"

CEO Bob Swan made the stunning announcement on Friday, during an earnings
call. It sent Intel down 16%, AMD up 16%. Bottom line, Intel first screwed
10nm, they are only now recovering and catching up on that. Meanwhile
Swan announced that 7nm is all screwed up, yields are terrible, it has
slipped another 6 months on top of at least six months earlier. Intel
won\'t be in production until 2022/23. MEanwhile AMC is producing 7nm
via TSMC right now. By the time Intel is on 7nm, TSMC will be on 3 nm.
In short, Intel has gone from being a node ahead to a node behind.
And Swan says the answer is Intel is considering outsourcing production
to other companies!

I remember discussing this here a couple years ago, warning that this is
what happens when you let accountants take over high tech companies.
I remember the usual suspects here arguing it was no big deal, it\'s just
\"managing\". Well, the idiot bean counter from Ebay that somehow would
up running Intel sure has screwed this up really badly. It\'s unlikely
Intel will ever recover. And it validates AMD being apparently right
and early to get out of fabs years ago and Apple choosing to ditch Intel.
It\'s a sad day for the future of high tech in America.
Intel screwed up the transition to EUV somehow. I think the problem
was mostly technical.

That said, Intel\'s management seems to be very rigid.

Intel\'s other problem is that x86 is ancient and buggy, and biggies
like Apple and Google can roll their own Arm-based chips and come out
ahead on price and performance.

I think Samsung is going to drop $1e10 or something amazing on a new
EUV-based fab too.
 
T

Tony Stewart

Guest
On Tue. 28 Jul.-20 7:40 p.m., Whoey Louie wrote:
https://theprint.in/world/intel-corps-plan-to-outsource-manufacturing-is-the-end-of-an-era-in-us-tech/467936/


\"Intel Corp’s plan to outsource manufacturing is the end of an era in US tech
When most other US chip companies shut or sold domestic plants years ago, Intel held out, a strategy that is now in tatters, with the company’s factories struggling to keep up.\"

CEO Bob Swan made the stunning announcement on Friday, during an earnings
call. It sent Intel down 16%, AMD up 16%. Bottom line, Intel first screwed
10nm, they are only now recovering and catching up on that. Meanwhile
Swan announced that 7nm is all screwed up, yields are terrible, it has
slipped another 6 months on top of at least six months earlier. Intel
won\'t be in production until 2022/23. MEanwhile AMC is producing 7nm
via TSMC right now. By the time Intel is on 7nm, TSMC will be on 3 nm.
In short, Intel has gone from being a node ahead to a node behind.
And Swan says the answer is Intel is considering outsourcing production
to other companies!

I remember discussing this here a couple years ago, warning that this is
what happens when you let accountants take over high tech companies.
I remember the usual suspects here arguing it was no big deal, it\'s just
\"managing\". Well, the idiot bean counter from Ebay that somehow would
up running Intel sure has screwed this up really badly. It\'s unlikely
Intel will ever recover. And it validates AMD being apparently right
and early to get out of fabs years ago and Apple choosing to ditch Intel.
It\'s a sad day for the future of high tech in America.
I can imagine the technical challenges with this takes so much
experience with high E-field ionization prevention with unavoidable
invisible contamination to get high yields. I can\'t imagine anyone else
competing with TMSC.
 
B

bitrex

Guest
On 7/28/2020 7:52 PM, John Larkin wrote:
On Tue, 28 Jul 2020 16:40:08 -0700 (PDT), Whoey Louie
trader4@optonline.net> wrote:


https://theprint.in/world/intel-corps-plan-to-outsource-manufacturing-is-the-end-of-an-era-in-us-tech/467936/


\"Intel Corp’s plan to outsource manufacturing is the end of an era in US tech
When most other US chip companies shut or sold domestic plants years ago, Intel held out, a strategy that is now in tatters, with the company’s factories struggling to keep up.\"

CEO Bob Swan made the stunning announcement on Friday, during an earnings
call. It sent Intel down 16%, AMD up 16%. Bottom line, Intel first screwed
10nm, they are only now recovering and catching up on that. Meanwhile
Swan announced that 7nm is all screwed up, yields are terrible, it has
slipped another 6 months on top of at least six months earlier. Intel
won\'t be in production until 2022/23. MEanwhile AMC is producing 7nm
via TSMC right now. By the time Intel is on 7nm, TSMC will be on 3 nm.
In short, Intel has gone from being a node ahead to a node behind.
And Swan says the answer is Intel is considering outsourcing production
to other companies!

I remember discussing this here a couple years ago, warning that this is
what happens when you let accountants take over high tech companies.
I remember the usual suspects here arguing it was no big deal, it\'s just
\"managing\". Well, the idiot bean counter from Ebay that somehow would
up running Intel sure has screwed this up really badly. It\'s unlikely
Intel will ever recover. And it validates AMD being apparently right
and early to get out of fabs years ago and Apple choosing to ditch Intel.
It\'s a sad day for the future of high tech in America.



Intel screwed up the transition to EUV somehow. I think the problem
was mostly technical.

That said, Intel\'s management seems to be very rigid.

Intel\'s other problem is that x86 is ancient and buggy, and biggies
like Apple and Google can roll their own Arm-based chips and come out
ahead on price and performance.

I think Samsung is going to drop $1e10 or something amazing on a new
EUV-based fab too.
They tried making an x86 low-power derivative to compete with the ARM
market segment at one point, it was called Atom and it kinda sucked
 
S

server

Guest
On Tuesday, July 28, 2020 at 4:40:13 PM UTC-7, Whoey Louie wrote:
https://theprint.in/world/intel-corps-plan-to-outsource-manufacturing-is-the-end-of-an-era-in-us-tech/467936/


\"Intel Corp’s plan to outsource manufacturing is the end of an era in US tech
When most other US chip companies shut or sold domestic plants years ago, Intel held out, a strategy that is now in tatters, with the company’s factories struggling to keep up.\"

CEO Bob Swan made the stunning announcement on Friday, during an earnings
call. It sent Intel down 16%, AMD up 16%. Bottom line, Intel first screwed
10nm, they are only now recovering and catching up on that. Meanwhile
Swan announced that 7nm is all screwed up, yields are terrible, it has
slipped another 6 months on top of at least six months earlier. Intel
won\'t be in production until 2022/23. MEanwhile AMC is producing 7nm
via TSMC right now. By the time Intel is on 7nm, TSMC will be on 3 nm.
In short, Intel has gone from being a node ahead to a node behind.
And Swan says the answer is Intel is considering outsourcing production
to other companies!

I remember discussing this here a couple years ago, warning that this is
what happens when you let accountants take over high tech companies.
I remember the usual suspects here arguing it was no big deal, it\'s just
\"managing\". Well, the idiot bean counter from Ebay that somehow would
up running Intel sure has screwed this up really badly. It\'s unlikely
Intel will ever recover. And it validates AMD being apparently right
and early to get out of fabs years ago and Apple choosing to ditch Intel.
It\'s a sad day for the future of high tech in America.
Why?

TSMC is building new fab in AZ,USA and listen to US gov to ditch Huawei.

Samsung OTOH is planning to fab for Huawei.
 
S

server

Guest
On Tue, 28 Jul 2020 20:13:54 -0400, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:

On 7/28/2020 7:52 PM, John Larkin wrote:
On Tue, 28 Jul 2020 16:40:08 -0700 (PDT), Whoey Louie
trader4@optonline.net> wrote:


https://theprint.in/world/intel-corps-plan-to-outsource-manufacturing-is-the-end-of-an-era-in-us-tech/467936/


\"Intel Corp’s plan to outsource manufacturing is the end of an era in US tech
When most other US chip companies shut or sold domestic plants years ago, Intel held out, a strategy that is now in tatters, with the company’s factories struggling to keep up.\"

CEO Bob Swan made the stunning announcement on Friday, during an earnings
call. It sent Intel down 16%, AMD up 16%. Bottom line, Intel first screwed
10nm, they are only now recovering and catching up on that. Meanwhile
Swan announced that 7nm is all screwed up, yields are terrible, it has
slipped another 6 months on top of at least six months earlier. Intel
won\'t be in production until 2022/23. MEanwhile AMC is producing 7nm
via TSMC right now. By the time Intel is on 7nm, TSMC will be on 3 nm.
In short, Intel has gone from being a node ahead to a node behind.
And Swan says the answer is Intel is considering outsourcing production
to other companies!

I remember discussing this here a couple years ago, warning that this is
what happens when you let accountants take over high tech companies.
I remember the usual suspects here arguing it was no big deal, it\'s just
\"managing\". Well, the idiot bean counter from Ebay that somehow would
up running Intel sure has screwed this up really badly. It\'s unlikely
Intel will ever recover. And it validates AMD being apparently right
and early to get out of fabs years ago and Apple choosing to ditch Intel.
It\'s a sad day for the future of high tech in America.



Intel screwed up the transition to EUV somehow. I think the problem
was mostly technical.

That said, Intel\'s management seems to be very rigid.

Intel\'s other problem is that x86 is ancient and buggy, and biggies
like Apple and Google can roll their own Arm-based chips and come out
ahead on price and performance.

I think Samsung is going to drop $1e10 or something amazing on a new
EUV-based fab too.


They tried making an x86 low-power derivative to compete with the ARM
market segment at one point, it was called Atom and it kinda sucked
Intel\'s value has always been superb lithography cranking out bad
architectures, and now they don\'t have the lithography.



--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

Science teaches us to doubt.

Claude Bernard
 
R

Ricketty C

Guest
On Tuesday, July 28, 2020 at 8:13:58 PM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:
On 7/28/2020 7:52 PM, John Larkin wrote:
On Tue, 28 Jul 2020 16:40:08 -0700 (PDT), Whoey Louie
trader4@optonline.net> wrote:


https://theprint.in/world/intel-corps-plan-to-outsource-manufacturing-is-the-end-of-an-era-in-us-tech/467936/


\"Intel Corp’s plan to outsource manufacturing is the end of an era in US tech
When most other US chip companies shut or sold domestic plants years ago, Intel held out, a strategy that is now in tatters, with the company’s factories struggling to keep up.\"

CEO Bob Swan made the stunning announcement on Friday, during an earnings
call. It sent Intel down 16%, AMD up 16%. Bottom line, Intel first screwed
10nm, they are only now recovering and catching up on that. Meanwhile
Swan announced that 7nm is all screwed up, yields are terrible, it has
slipped another 6 months on top of at least six months earlier. Intel
won\'t be in production until 2022/23. MEanwhile AMC is producing 7nm
via TSMC right now. By the time Intel is on 7nm, TSMC will be on 3 nm..
In short, Intel has gone from being a node ahead to a node behind.
And Swan says the answer is Intel is considering outsourcing production
to other companies!

I remember discussing this here a couple years ago, warning that this is
what happens when you let accountants take over high tech companies.
I remember the usual suspects here arguing it was no big deal, it\'s just
\"managing\". Well, the idiot bean counter from Ebay that somehow would
up running Intel sure has screwed this up really badly. It\'s unlikely
Intel will ever recover. And it validates AMD being apparently right
and early to get out of fabs years ago and Apple choosing to ditch Intel.
It\'s a sad day for the future of high tech in America.



Intel screwed up the transition to EUV somehow. I think the problem
was mostly technical.

That said, Intel\'s management seems to be very rigid.

Intel\'s other problem is that x86 is ancient and buggy, and biggies
like Apple and Google can roll their own Arm-based chips and come out
ahead on price and performance.

I think Samsung is going to drop $1e10 or something amazing on a new
EUV-based fab too.


They tried making an x86 low-power derivative to compete with the ARM
market segment at one point, it was called Atom and it kinda sucked
That was a long time ago. It was a bit like putting thin tires on a Chevy Malibu to try to compete with a Tercel on fuel economy. I believe Intel has done much better on low power since then.

--

Rick C.

- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
 
J

Jan Panteltje

Guest
On a sunny day (Tue, 28 Jul 2020 16:40:08 -0700 (PDT)) it happened Whoey Louie
<trader4@optonline.net> wrote in
<dc4a803b-e1d8-46a7-a453-02b5d3aee005o@googlegroups.com>:

https://theprint.in/world/intel-corps-plan-to-outsource-manufacturing-is-the-end-of-an-era-in-us-tech/467936/
and early to get out of fabs years ago and Apple choosing to ditch Intel.
....
It\'s a sad day for the future of high tech in America.
Also because US national debt is now worse than that of many third world countries.
And that debt is increasing.

Intel CPUs also suffer from one security bug after the other.
Indeed top down failure.

And on \'top down\':
A reality show host as PreCedent!

PS writing this on my CORE i5 laptop.. No problems there.
 
J

Jan Panteltje

Guest
On a sunny day (Tue, 28 Jul 2020 18:35:07 -0700 (PDT)) it happened
edward.ming.lee@gmail.com wrote in
<0a405a10-fa99-4ef7-8cb5-1d98bfd2df6do@googlegroups.com>:

Why?

TSMC is building new fab in AZ,USA and listen to US gov to ditch Huawei.
Listening to an idiot PreCedent is not a good sign.
Same effect as a cookies baker in control of a tech company.


>Samsung OTOH is planning to fab for Huawei.

The whole anti China jive from the current US dictator has brought nobody anything.
The next US government (dems or reps) will probably start a war in the Chinese sea
or there about and draft all the unemployed as cannon feed like Vietnam.

It is a bit sad that your commie-nuke-ation system is now downgraded just to pester Huawei.
Shooting your own foot so to speak.
 
S

server

Guest
On Tuesday, July 28, 2020 at 11:43:59 PM UTC-7, Jan Panteltje wrote:
On a sunny day (Tue, 28 Jul 2020 18:35:07 -0700 (PDT)) it happened
edward.ming.lee@gmail.com wrote in
0a405a10-fa99-4ef7-8cb5-1d98bfd2df6do@googlegroups.com>:

Why?

TSMC is building new fab in AZ,USA and listen to US gov to ditch Huawei.

Listening to an idiot PreCedent is not a good sign.
Same effect as a cookies baker in control of a tech company.
I don\'t think you understand the U.S. system. The President is just picking consensus from other government officials. The decision to ditch Huawei come from many branches of the government, representing the people\'s will.

Samsung OTOH is planning to fab for Huawei.

The whole anti China jive from the current US dictator has brought nobody anything.
The next US government (dems or reps) will probably start a war in the Chinese sea
or there about and draft all the unemployed as cannon feed like Vietnam.
So, you agree that the current CCP polices is independent from the President.

It is a bit sad that your commie-nuke-ation system is now downgraded just to pester Huawei.
Shooting your own foot so to speak.
No, we are just waking up from the 50 years war plan from the CCP. Starting from Mo\'s era, CCP has been following Sun Tzu\'s \"The Art of War\". Which means lies and deceptions to take advantages of others at all cost.
 
B

bitrex

Guest
On 7/28/2020 9:43 PM, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Tue, 28 Jul 2020 20:13:54 -0400, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:

On 7/28/2020 7:52 PM, John Larkin wrote:
On Tue, 28 Jul 2020 16:40:08 -0700 (PDT), Whoey Louie
trader4@optonline.net> wrote:


https://theprint.in/world/intel-corps-plan-to-outsource-manufacturing-is-the-end-of-an-era-in-us-tech/467936/


\"Intel Corp’s plan to outsource manufacturing is the end of an era in US tech
When most other US chip companies shut or sold domestic plants years ago, Intel held out, a strategy that is now in tatters, with the company’s factories struggling to keep up.\"

CEO Bob Swan made the stunning announcement on Friday, during an earnings
call. It sent Intel down 16%, AMD up 16%. Bottom line, Intel first screwed
10nm, they are only now recovering and catching up on that. Meanwhile
Swan announced that 7nm is all screwed up, yields are terrible, it has
slipped another 6 months on top of at least six months earlier. Intel
won\'t be in production until 2022/23. MEanwhile AMC is producing 7nm
via TSMC right now. By the time Intel is on 7nm, TSMC will be on 3 nm.
In short, Intel has gone from being a node ahead to a node behind.
And Swan says the answer is Intel is considering outsourcing production
to other companies!

I remember discussing this here a couple years ago, warning that this is
what happens when you let accountants take over high tech companies.
I remember the usual suspects here arguing it was no big deal, it\'s just
\"managing\". Well, the idiot bean counter from Ebay that somehow would
up running Intel sure has screwed this up really badly. It\'s unlikely
Intel will ever recover. And it validates AMD being apparently right
and early to get out of fabs years ago and Apple choosing to ditch Intel.
It\'s a sad day for the future of high tech in America.



Intel screwed up the transition to EUV somehow. I think the problem
was mostly technical.

That said, Intel\'s management seems to be very rigid.

Intel\'s other problem is that x86 is ancient and buggy, and biggies
like Apple and Google can roll their own Arm-based chips and come out
ahead on price and performance.

I think Samsung is going to drop $1e10 or something amazing on a new
EUV-based fab too.


They tried making an x86 low-power derivative to compete with the ARM
market segment at one point, it was called Atom and it kinda sucked

Intel\'s value has always been superb lithography cranking out bad
architectures, and now they don\'t have the lithography.
I think a solid argument could be made that x86 has been a kludgy dog
since about 1988. Or at least since the last major opportunity they had
to not double down on it, on the Pentium.

It did leave a lot of competing architectures in the dust
performance-wise but it\'s not inherently elegant like the Shinkansen
bullet-train or anything, it\'s like that Budd RDC they mounted jet
engines to, as an engineering analogy.

<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=saG-QQSiG4I>
 
B

bitrex

Guest
On 7/29/2020 2:43 AM, Jan Panteltje wrote:
On a sunny day (Tue, 28 Jul 2020 16:40:08 -0700 (PDT)) it happened Whoey Louie
trader4@optonline.net> wrote in
dc4a803b-e1d8-46a7-a453-02b5d3aee005o@googlegroups.com>:


https://theprint.in/world/intel-corps-plan-to-outsource-manufacturing-is-the-end-of-an-era-in-us-tech/467936/
and early to get out of fabs years ago and Apple choosing to ditch Intel.
...
It\'s a sad day for the future of high tech in America.

Also because US national debt is now worse than that of many third world countries.
And that debt is increasing.

Intel CPUs also suffer from one security bug after the other.
Indeed top down failure.

And on \'top down\':
A reality show host as PreCedent!

PS writing this on my CORE i5 laptop.. No problems there.
Just by raw number of cores shipped the biggest CPU manufacturer in the
world is probably Qualcomm; what doesn\'t have some ARM-derivative
Qualcomm SoC with a 15 year old ATI GPU core along with in it, nowadays.
 
S

server

Guest
On Wednesday, July 29, 2020 at 1:12:58 AM UTC-7, Bill Sloman wrote:
On Wednesday, July 29, 2020 at 5:32:44 PM UTC+10, edward....@gmail.com wrote:
On Tuesday, July 28, 2020 at 11:43:59 PM UTC-7, Jan Panteltje wrote:
On a sunny day (Tue, 28 Jul 2020 18:35:07 -0700 (PDT)) it happened
edward....@gmail.com wrote in
0a405a10-fa99-4ef7...@googlegroups.com>:
snip

No, we are just waking up from the 50 years war plan from the CCP. Starting from Mao era, CCP has been following Sun Tzu\'s \"The Art of War\". Which means lies and deceptions to take advantages of others at all cost.

One of the clear messages from Sun Tzu\'s \"The Art of War\" is that war is a very expensive way of getting what you want.
\"The Art of War\" is fair game in war, but not a way to run a country, and not diplomacy at all. When they treat everybody else as adversary, they get enemies everywhere.

Adversarys don\'t mind deception, friends do.兵不厌詐 友不能詐
 
G

Gerhard Hoffmann

Guest
Am 29.07.20 um 09:32 schrieb edward.ming.lee@gmail.com:
On Tuesday, July 28, 2020 at 11:43:59 PM UTC-7, Jan Panteltje wrote:
On a sunny day (Tue, 28 Jul 2020 18:35:07 -0700 (PDT)) it happened
edward.ming.lee@gmail.com wrote in
0a405a10-fa99-4ef7-8cb5-1d98bfd2df6do@googlegroups.com>:

Why?

TSMC is building new fab in AZ,USA and listen to US gov to ditch Huawei.

Listening to an idiot PreCedent is not a good sign.
Same effect as a cookies baker in control of a tech company.

I don\'t think you understand the U.S. system. The President is just picking consensus from other government officials. The decision to ditch Huawei come from many branches of the government, representing the people\'s will.
It\'s more that he is picking government officials who blindly
say yes to his weird hallucinations. And they have a short
survival span when they note they have lost contact with reality.


Samsung OTOH is planning to fab for Huawei.

The whole anti China jive from the current US dictator has brought nobody anything.
The next US government (dems or reps) will probably start a war in the Chinese sea
or there about and draft all the unemployed as cannon feed like Vietnam.

So, you agree that the current CCP polices is independent from the President.

It is a bit sad that your commie-nuke-ation system is now downgraded just to pester Huawei.
Shooting your own foot so to speak.

No, we are just waking up from the 50 years war plan from the CCP. Starting from Mo\'s era, CCP has been following Sun Tzu\'s \"The Art of War\". Which means lies and deceptions to take advantages of others at all cost.
Which describes US politics in a nut shell.

Like Northstream2, or denying export of Covid tests to Iran,
or weapons of mass destruction. As if the list of countries who
actually have used nukes against civilians had more than one entry.
 
S

server

Guest
On Wednesday, July 29, 2020 at 1:33:12 AM UTC-7, Gerhard Hoffmann wrote:
Am 29.07.20 um 09:32 schrieb edward.ming.lee@gmail.com:
On Tuesday, July 28, 2020 at 11:43:59 PM UTC-7, Jan Panteltje wrote:
On a sunny day (Tue, 28 Jul 2020 18:35:07 -0700 (PDT)) it happened
edward.ming.lee@gmail.com wrote in
0a405a10-fa99-4ef7-8cb5-1d98bfd2df6do@googlegroups.com>:

Why?

TSMC is building new fab in AZ,USA and listen to US gov to ditch Huawei.

Listening to an idiot PreCedent is not a good sign.
Same effect as a cookies baker in control of a tech company.

I don\'t think you understand the U.S. system. The President is just picking consensus from other government officials. The decision to ditch Huawei come from many branches of the government, representing the people\'s will.

It\'s more that he is picking government officials who blindly
say yes to his weird hallucinations. And they have a short
survival span when they note they have lost contact with reality.
You are ignoring the bi-partisan bills with overwhelming supports.

Samsung OTOH is planning to fab for Huawei.

The whole anti China jive from the current US dictator has brought nobody anything.
The next US government (dems or reps) will probably start a war in the Chinese sea
or there about and draft all the unemployed as cannon feed like Vietnam.

So, you agree that the current CCP polices is independent from the President.

It is a bit sad that your commie-nuke-ation system is now downgraded just to pester Huawei.
Shooting your own foot so to speak.

No, we are just waking up from the 50 years war plan from the CCP. Starting from Mo\'s era, CCP has been following Sun Tzu\'s \"The Art of War\". Which means lies and deceptions to take advantages of others at all cost.

Which describes US politics in a nut shell.

Like Northstream2, or denying export of Covid tests to Iran,
or weapons of mass destruction.
We are technically at war with Iran, who wants to destroy us and many others.

As if the list of countries who
actually have used nukes against civilians had more than one entry.
We were at war with Japan, and nukes were ways to end it, and to ensure not to use them again.
 
S

server

Guest
On Wed, 29 Jul 2020 04:01:42 -0400, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:

On 7/28/2020 9:43 PM, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Tue, 28 Jul 2020 20:13:54 -0400, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:

On 7/28/2020 7:52 PM, John Larkin wrote:
On Tue, 28 Jul 2020 16:40:08 -0700 (PDT), Whoey Louie
trader4@optonline.net> wrote:


https://theprint.in/world/intel-corps-plan-to-outsource-manufacturing-is-the-end-of-an-era-in-us-tech/467936/


\"Intel Corp’s plan to outsource manufacturing is the end of an era in US tech
When most other US chip companies shut or sold domestic plants years ago, Intel held out, a strategy that is now in tatters, with the company’s factories struggling to keep up.\"

CEO Bob Swan made the stunning announcement on Friday, during an earnings
call. It sent Intel down 16%, AMD up 16%. Bottom line, Intel first screwed
10nm, they are only now recovering and catching up on that. Meanwhile
Swan announced that 7nm is all screwed up, yields are terrible, it has
slipped another 6 months on top of at least six months earlier. Intel
won\'t be in production until 2022/23. MEanwhile AMC is producing 7nm
via TSMC right now. By the time Intel is on 7nm, TSMC will be on 3 nm.
In short, Intel has gone from being a node ahead to a node behind.
And Swan says the answer is Intel is considering outsourcing production
to other companies!

I remember discussing this here a couple years ago, warning that this is
what happens when you let accountants take over high tech companies.
I remember the usual suspects here arguing it was no big deal, it\'s just
\"managing\". Well, the idiot bean counter from Ebay that somehow would
up running Intel sure has screwed this up really badly. It\'s unlikely
Intel will ever recover. And it validates AMD being apparently right
and early to get out of fabs years ago and Apple choosing to ditch Intel.
It\'s a sad day for the future of high tech in America.



Intel screwed up the transition to EUV somehow. I think the problem
was mostly technical.

That said, Intel\'s management seems to be very rigid.

Intel\'s other problem is that x86 is ancient and buggy, and biggies
like Apple and Google can roll their own Arm-based chips and come out
ahead on price and performance.

I think Samsung is going to drop $1e10 or something amazing on a new
EUV-based fab too.


They tried making an x86 low-power derivative to compete with the ARM
market segment at one point, it was called Atom and it kinda sucked

Intel\'s value has always been superb lithography cranking out bad
architectures, and now they don\'t have the lithography.




I think a solid argument could be made that x86 has been a kludgy dog
since about 1988. Or at least since the last major opportunity they had
to not double down on it, on the Pentium.
It\'s always been a klugey dog. It evolved directly from 4004, 8008,
and 8080. When x86 was evolved (not invented) there were much better
architures around, like PDP-11 and 68K and others.

x86 has always been weak on hardware protections, and the ones that it
has are rarely used. So we get buffer overflow exploits, cache
exploits, all those crashes and viruses and trojans and ransomware and
patch-fests.

c plus x86 is a mess. x86 means \"execute anything.\"

It did leave a lot of competing architectures in the dust
performance-wise but it\'s not inherently elegant like the Shinkansen
bullet-train or anything, it\'s like that Budd RDC they mounted jet
engines to, as an engineering analogy.
The performance came from lithography and insanely complex - and
power-hungry - work-arounds to the ghastly architecture and
instruction set.

I won\'t miss x86 when it\'s gone.

Intel has made many attempts to sell something else, ranging from
super-cisc to super-risc. I suspect internal politics killed them off.



--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

Science teaches us to doubt.

Claude Bernard
 
B

Bill Sloman

Guest
On Wednesday, July 29, 2020 at 6:54:28 PM UTC+10, edward....@gmail.com wrote:
On Wednesday, July 29, 2020 at 1:33:12 AM UTC-7, Gerhard Hoffmann wrote:
Am 29.07.20 um 09:32 schrieb edward....@gmail.com:
On Tuesday, July 28, 2020 at 11:43:59 PM UTC-7, Jan Panteltje wrote:
On a sunny day (Tue, 28 Jul 2020 18:35:07 -0700 (PDT)) it happened
edward....@gmail.com wrote in
0a405a10-fa99-4ef7...@googlegroups.com>:

Why?

TSMC is building new fab in AZ,USA and listen to US gov to ditch Huawei.

Listening to an idiot PreCedent is not a good sign.
Same effect as a cookies baker in control of a tech company.

I don\'t think you understand the U.S. system. The President is just picking consensus from other government officials. The decision to ditch Huawei come from many branches of the government, representing the people\'s will.

It\'s more that he is picking government officials who blindly
say yes to his weird hallucinations. And they have a short
survival span when they note they have lost contact with reality.
You are ignoring the bi-partisan bills with overwhelming supports.
Samsung OTOH is planning to fab for Huawei.

The whole anti China jive from the current US dictator has brought nobody anything.
The next US government (dems or reps) will probably start a war in the Chinese sea
or there about and draft all the unemployed as cannon feed like Vietnam.

So, you agree that the current CCP polices is independent from the President.

It is a bit sad that your commie-nuke-ation system is now downgraded just to pester Huawei.
Shooting your own foot so to speak.

No, we are just waking up from the 50 years war plan from the CCP. Starting from Mo\'s era, CCP has been following Sun Tzu\'s \"The Art of War\". Which means lies and deceptions to take advantages of others at all cost.

Which describes US politics in a nut shell.

Like Northstream2, or denying export of Covid tests to Iran,
or weapons of mass destruction.

We are technically at war with Iran, who wants to destroy us and many others.
Really? There hasn\'t been a declaration of war. Iran may want to be free to try to convert the rest of the world to their brand of Islam, but they don\'t seem to be interested in destroying anybody for destruction\'s sake. It\'s more a matter of discouraging other people from trying to stop them doing their thing.

As if the list of countries who
actually have used nukes against civilians had more than one entry.
We were at war with Japan, and nukes were ways to end it, and to ensure not to use them again.
Using two nuclear bombs on Japan did serve to end the war with Japan . There was nothing in that about ensuring that they wouldn\'\'t need to be used again, and nothing in US policy since then has gone that far.. or seems likely to.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney
 
S

server

Guest
On Wed, 29 Jul 2020 01:54:24 -0700 (PDT), edward.ming.lee@gmail.com
wrote:

On Wednesday, July 29, 2020 at 1:33:12 AM UTC-7, Gerhard Hoffmann wrote:
Am 29.07.20 um 09:32 schrieb edward.ming.lee@gmail.com:
On Tuesday, July 28, 2020 at 11:43:59 PM UTC-7, Jan Panteltje wrote:
On a sunny day (Tue, 28 Jul 2020 18:35:07 -0700 (PDT)) it happened
edward.ming.lee@gmail.com wrote in
0a405a10-fa99-4ef7-8cb5-1d98bfd2df6do@googlegroups.com>:

Why?

TSMC is building new fab in AZ,USA and listen to US gov to ditch Huawei.

Listening to an idiot PreCedent is not a good sign.
Same effect as a cookies baker in control of a tech company.

I don\'t think you understand the U.S. system. The President is just picking consensus from other government officials. The decision to ditch Huawei come from many branches of the government, representing the people\'s will.

It\'s more that he is picking government officials who blindly
say yes to his weird hallucinations. And they have a short
survival span when they note they have lost contact with reality.

You are ignoring the bi-partisan bills with overwhelming supports.

Samsung OTOH is planning to fab for Huawei.

The whole anti China jive from the current US dictator has brought nobody anything.
The next US government (dems or reps) will probably start a war in the Chinese sea
or there about and draft all the unemployed as cannon feed like Vietnam.

So, you agree that the current CCP polices is independent from the President.

It is a bit sad that your commie-nuke-ation system is now downgraded just to pester Huawei.
Shooting your own foot so to speak.

No, we are just waking up from the 50 years war plan from the CCP. Starting from Mo\'s era, CCP has been following Sun Tzu\'s \"The Art of War\". Which means lies and deceptions to take advantages of others at all cost.

Which describes US politics in a nut shell.

Like Northstream2, or denying export of Covid tests to Iran,
or weapons of mass destruction.

We are technically at war with Iran, who wants to destroy us and many others.

As if the list of countries who
actually have used nukes against civilians had more than one entry.

We were at war with Japan, and nukes were ways to end it, and to ensure not to use them again.
The US proposed a nuke-free world at the end of WWII. The USSR
wouldn\'t agree.





--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

Science teaches us to doubt.

Claude Bernard
 
W

Whoey Louie

Guest
On Wednesday, July 29, 2020 at 4:01:48 AM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:
On 7/28/2020 9:43 PM, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Tue, 28 Jul 2020 20:13:54 -0400, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:

On 7/28/2020 7:52 PM, John Larkin wrote:
On Tue, 28 Jul 2020 16:40:08 -0700 (PDT), Whoey Louie
trader4@optonline.net> wrote:


https://theprint.in/world/intel-corps-plan-to-outsource-manufacturing-is-the-end-of-an-era-in-us-tech/467936/


\"Intel Corp’s plan to outsource manufacturing is the end of an era in US tech
When most other US chip companies shut or sold domestic plants years ago, Intel held out, a strategy that is now in tatters, with the company’s factories struggling to keep up.\"

CEO Bob Swan made the stunning announcement on Friday, during an earnings
call. It sent Intel down 16%, AMD up 16%. Bottom line, Intel first screwed
10nm, they are only now recovering and catching up on that. Meanwhile
Swan announced that 7nm is all screwed up, yields are terrible, it has
slipped another 6 months on top of at least six months earlier. Intel
won\'t be in production until 2022/23. MEanwhile AMC is producing 7nm
via TSMC right now. By the time Intel is on 7nm, TSMC will be on 3 nm.
In short, Intel has gone from being a node ahead to a node behind.
And Swan says the answer is Intel is considering outsourcing production
to other companies!

I remember discussing this here a couple years ago, warning that this is
what happens when you let accountants take over high tech companies.
I remember the usual suspects here arguing it was no big deal, it\'s just
\"managing\". Well, the idiot bean counter from Ebay that somehow would
up running Intel sure has screwed this up really badly. It\'s unlikely
Intel will ever recover. And it validates AMD being apparently right
and early to get out of fabs years ago and Apple choosing to ditch Intel.
It\'s a sad day for the future of high tech in America.



Intel screwed up the transition to EUV somehow. I think the problem
was mostly technical.

That said, Intel\'s management seems to be very rigid.

Intel\'s other problem is that x86 is ancient and buggy, and biggies
like Apple and Google can roll their own Arm-based chips and come out
ahead on price and performance.

I think Samsung is going to drop $1e10 or something amazing on a new
EUV-based fab too.


They tried making an x86 low-power derivative to compete with the ARM
market segment at one point, it was called Atom and it kinda sucked

Intel\'s value has always been superb lithography cranking out bad
architectures, and now they don\'t have the lithography.




I think a solid argument could be made that x86 has been a kludgy dog
since about 1988. Or at least since the last major opportunity they had
to not double down on it, on the Pentium.

It did leave a lot of competing architectures in the dust
performance-wise but it\'s not inherently elegant like the Shinkansen
bullet-train or anything, it\'s like that Budd RDC they mounted jet
engines to, as an engineering analogy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=saG-QQSiG4I
So it left a lot of competing architectures in the dust performance wise,
it maintained code compatibility with the huge X86 base, it was enormously
successful, but it was a \"kludgy dog\" because it was not inherently elegant.. Wow. And IDK how you make something inherently elegant, whatever that even
means, when you have to maintain the existing X86 architecture.
 
W

Whoey Louie

Guest
On Wednesday, July 29, 2020 at 10:11:59 AM UTC-4, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Wed, 29 Jul 2020 04:01:42 -0400, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:

On 7/28/2020 9:43 PM, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Tue, 28 Jul 2020 20:13:54 -0400, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:

On 7/28/2020 7:52 PM, John Larkin wrote:
On Tue, 28 Jul 2020 16:40:08 -0700 (PDT), Whoey Louie
trader4@optonline.net> wrote:


https://theprint.in/world/intel-corps-plan-to-outsource-manufacturing-is-the-end-of-an-era-in-us-tech/467936/


\"Intel Corp’s plan to outsource manufacturing is the end of an era in US tech
When most other US chip companies shut or sold domestic plants years ago, Intel held out, a strategy that is now in tatters, with the company’s factories struggling to keep up.\"

CEO Bob Swan made the stunning announcement on Friday, during an earnings
call. It sent Intel down 16%, AMD up 16%. Bottom line, Intel first screwed
10nm, they are only now recovering and catching up on that. Meanwhile
Swan announced that 7nm is all screwed up, yields are terrible, it has
slipped another 6 months on top of at least six months earlier. Intel
won\'t be in production until 2022/23. MEanwhile AMC is producing 7nm
via TSMC right now. By the time Intel is on 7nm, TSMC will be on 3 nm.
In short, Intel has gone from being a node ahead to a node behind.
And Swan says the answer is Intel is considering outsourcing production
to other companies!

I remember discussing this here a couple years ago, warning that this is
what happens when you let accountants take over high tech companies..
I remember the usual suspects here arguing it was no big deal, it\'s just
\"managing\". Well, the idiot bean counter from Ebay that somehow would
up running Intel sure has screwed this up really badly. It\'s unlikely
Intel will ever recover. And it validates AMD being apparently right
and early to get out of fabs years ago and Apple choosing to ditch Intel.
It\'s a sad day for the future of high tech in America.



Intel screwed up the transition to EUV somehow. I think the problem
was mostly technical.

That said, Intel\'s management seems to be very rigid.

Intel\'s other problem is that x86 is ancient and buggy, and biggies
like Apple and Google can roll their own Arm-based chips and come out
ahead on price and performance.

I think Samsung is going to drop $1e10 or something amazing on a new
EUV-based fab too.


They tried making an x86 low-power derivative to compete with the ARM
market segment at one point, it was called Atom and it kinda sucked

Intel\'s value has always been superb lithography cranking out bad
architectures, and now they don\'t have the lithography.




I think a solid argument could be made that x86 has been a kludgy dog
since about 1988. Or at least since the last major opportunity they had
to not double down on it, on the Pentium.

It\'s always been a klugey dog. It evolved directly from 4004, 8008,
and 8080. When x86 was evolved (not invented) there were much better
architures around, like PDP-11 and 68K and others.

x86 has always been weak on hardware protections, and the ones that it
has are rarely used. So we get buffer overflow exploits, cache
exploits, all those crashes and viruses and trojans and ransomware and
patch-fests.
IF true, then it\'s odd that so much of the internet and modern computing
runs so successfully on it.




c plus x86 is a mess. x86 means \"execute anything.\"


It did leave a lot of competing architectures in the dust
performance-wise but it\'s not inherently elegant like the Shinkansen
bullet-train or anything, it\'s like that Budd RDC they mounted jet
engines to, as an engineering analogy.

The performance came from lithography and insanely complex - and
power-hungry - work-arounds to the ghastly architecture and
instruction set.

I won\'t miss x86 when it\'s gone.

Intel has made many attempts to sell something else, ranging from
super-cisc to super-risc. I suspect internal politics killed them off.
Not internal politics, lack of customer acceptance. None of those were very
good. The Titanium was pretty much targeted at one customer, HP, it was
way late. The 960 had stiff competition and didn\'t gain enough design
wins to establish it as an architecture and it was targeted at markets
where the X86 could not compete. It\'s not like the X86 team had to come
with axes to kill it, they didn\'t even pay any attention to it.
 
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