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Rejuvenating SLAs...

D

Don Y

Guest
I\'ve a dozen group 24 AGM batteries pulled from one of my
UPSs as \"approaching end of life\" (easier to pull them
while they aren\'t complaining than to wait until they
sh*t the bed at some inappropriate time!)

I\'m debating idling that UPS, for a while. So, the logical
thing to do is just recycle the old batteries and bank the
\"core charges\" for the day when I need to replace them in
the future.

*But*, I can also tinker with them to see if there\'s any
practical way of extending their useful life!

[lots of youtube videos and the like but I suspect many
of those folks are *just* tinkering and not really expecting
any savings from their efforts (no one ever follows up to
indicate how long the battery\'s service was extended nor
how its capacity was affected)]

Of course, that means finding a place to store them (or,
reinstall in UPS) instead of enjoying a bit less clutter! :-/

So, anyone with first-hand experience on these larger units?
 
M

Martin Riddle

Guest
On Wed, 14 Oct 2020 12:59:37 -0700, Don Y
<blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:

I\'ve a dozen group 24 AGM batteries pulled from one of my
UPSs as \"approaching end of life\" (easier to pull them
while they aren\'t complaining than to wait until they
sh*t the bed at some inappropriate time!)

I\'m debating idling that UPS, for a while. So, the logical
thing to do is just recycle the old batteries and bank the
\"core charges\" for the day when I need to replace them in
the future.

*But*, I can also tinker with them to see if there\'s any
practical way of extending their useful life!

[lots of youtube videos and the like but I suspect many
of those folks are *just* tinkering and not really expecting
any savings from their efforts (no one ever follows up to
indicate how long the battery\'s service was extended nor
how its capacity was affected)]

Of course, that means finding a place to store them (or,
reinstall in UPS) instead of enjoying a bit less clutter! :-/

So, anyone with first-hand experience on these larger units?
I just tried to Equalize a GP12120 AGM that is 5 years old. No dice
for this one. Some say 5-8 hrs will pull off the sulfation but I had
no luck, only 1/2 capacity left.
On the other Hand I have another CSB 7AH battery that has not been
used in 4 years and it still has the rated capacity.

For the group 24, check witht he mfg, some say yes to equalization and
some say no.

Cheers
 
R

Robert Baer

Guest
Don Y wrote:
I\'ve a dozen group 24 AGM batteries pulled from one of my
UPSs as \"approaching end of life\" (easier to pull them
while they aren\'t complaining than to wait until they
sh*t the bed at some inappropriate time!)

I\'m debating idling that UPS, for a while.  So, the logical
thing to do is just recycle the old batteries and bank the
\"core charges\" for the day when I need to replace them in
the future.

*But*, I can also tinker with them to see if there\'s any
practical way of extending their useful life!

[lots of youtube videos and the like but I suspect many
of those folks are *just* tinkering and not really expecting
any savings from their efforts (no one ever follows up to
indicate how long the battery\'s service was extended nor
how its capacity was affected)]

Of course, that means finding a place to store them (or,
reinstall in UPS) instead of enjoying a bit less clutter!  :-/

So, anyone with first-hand experience on these larger units?
Once upon a time,i used to get battery rejects from weelchairs and
the like - both sealed (mostly AGM types) and liquid (unsealed),some
suitable for a truck.
First cleaned them up, and then applied a quick 100 A test for one
second to weed out not-too-profitable-to-recover-by-recycling-charge
methods.
Then put the \"good\' ones on standard charger; let them sit for a day
and then full 10 second 100 A test 10V or better to pass.

Those that passed this went back to wait a day for second 100 A full
test.

Never tried to check battery\'s service life before/after nor the
capacity.
However, the larger ones seemed to be good enough to start a truck,
and all those that passed were good enough to be put back online in
medical mobility units that they had come from (scooters, etc).

Oh, to tweak some of you, i stored all of them on my cement garage floor.

Thanks,
 
R

Ricketty C

Guest
On Thursday, October 15, 2020 at 1:39:41 AM UTC-4, Robert Baer wrote:
Don Y wrote:
I\'ve a dozen group 24 AGM batteries pulled from one of my
UPSs as \"approaching end of life\" (easier to pull them
while they aren\'t complaining than to wait until they
sh*t the bed at some inappropriate time!)

I\'m debating idling that UPS, for a while.  So, the logical
thing to do is just recycle the old batteries and bank the
\"core charges\" for the day when I need to replace them in
the future.

*But*, I can also tinker with them to see if there\'s any
practical way of extending their useful life!

[lots of youtube videos and the like but I suspect many
of those folks are *just* tinkering and not really expecting
any savings from their efforts (no one ever follows up to
indicate how long the battery\'s service was extended nor
how its capacity was affected)]

Of course, that means finding a place to store them (or,
reinstall in UPS) instead of enjoying a bit less clutter!  :-/

So, anyone with first-hand experience on these larger units?
Once upon a time,i used to get battery rejects from weelchairs and
the like - both sealed (mostly AGM types) and liquid (unsealed),some
suitable for a truck.
First cleaned them up, and then applied a quick 100 A test for one
second to weed out not-too-profitable-to-recover-by-recycling-charge
methods.
Then put the \"good\' ones on standard charger; let them sit for a day
and then full 10 second 100 A test 10V or better to pass.

Those that passed this went back to wait a day for second 100 A full
test.

Never tried to check battery\'s service life before/after nor the
capacity.
However, the larger ones seemed to be good enough to start a truck,
and all those that passed were good enough to be put back online in
medical mobility units that they had come from (scooters, etc).

Oh, to tweak some of you, i stored all of them on my cement garage floor.
I worked at Sears one Christmas season in the garage. We would charge batteries, slowly, for a day or two and then test them. The guy teaching me emphasized strongly to sit the battery on a piece of wood instead of the concrete. I have no idea how that is supposed to make any difference other than possibly temperature. Let a liquid container sit on a concrete floor and it most likely will be a couple or few degrees colder than if it is not on the floor directly.

Has anyone ever heard a rational for this idea?

--

Rick C.

- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
 
M

Martin Brown

Guest
On 14/10/2020 20:59, Don Y wrote:
I\'ve a dozen group 24 AGM batteries pulled from one of my
UPSs as \"approaching end of life\" (easier to pull them
while they aren\'t complaining than to wait until they
sh*t the bed at some inappropriate time!)

I\'m debating idling that UPS, for a while.  So, the logical
thing to do is just recycle the old batteries and bank the
\"core charges\" for the day when I need to replace them in
the future.

*But*, I can also tinker with them to see if there\'s any
practical way of extending their useful life!
My experience of SLAs in UPSs is that they are toast once they begin to
swell and nothing you can do will make them recover. Also you probably
don\'t want to put them back into a unit since they can swell up enough
to deform the metal frame and make removal very difficult before the UPS
fails them on self test. So far I have never encountered one that had
swelled enough to burst but some were very reluctant to come out.

If you are using them for powering a cattle fence outdoors then you can
abuse them how you like with little consequence but if you are putting
them into a UPS that you rely on I would err on the side of caution.

[lots of youtube videos and the like but I suspect many
of those folks are *just* tinkering and not really expecting
any savings from their efforts (no one ever follows up to
indicate how long the battery\'s service was extended nor
how its capacity was affected)]

Of course, that means finding a place to store them (or,
reinstall in UPS) instead of enjoying a bit less clutter!  :-/

So, anyone with first-hand experience on these larger units?
Not sure how big group 24 AGM is...

--
Regards,
Martin Brown
 
D

Don Y

Guest
On 10/14/2020 10:39 PM, Robert Baer wrote:
> Oh, to tweak some of you, i stored all of them on my cement garage floor.

Not an issue if the battery has been manufactured in the past several decades! :>

OTOH, if stored in an unheated space and not \"floated\", you run the risk of
a freeze causing the case to crack and leak on your cement floor.
 
D

Don Y

Guest
On 10/15/2020 1:08 AM, Martin Brown wrote:
On 14/10/2020 20:59, Don Y wrote:
I\'ve a dozen group 24 AGM batteries pulled from one of my
UPSs as \"approaching end of life\" (easier to pull them
while they aren\'t complaining than to wait until they
sh*t the bed at some inappropriate time!)

I\'m debating idling that UPS, for a while. So, the logical
thing to do is just recycle the old batteries and bank the
\"core charges\" for the day when I need to replace them in
the future.

*But*, I can also tinker with them to see if there\'s any
practical way of extending their useful life!

My experience of SLAs in UPSs is that they are toast once they begin to swell
and nothing you can do will make them recover. Also you probably don\'t want to
put them back into a unit since they can swell up enough to deform the metal
frame and make removal very difficult before the UPS fails them on self test.
So far I have never encountered one that had swelled enough to burst but some
were very reluctant to come out.
I see a lot of discarded (\"recycled\") UPSs. It\'s fairly common to see
cases ruptured and plates exposed. No doubt a consequence of poor
maintenance/servicing.

If you are using them for powering a cattle fence outdoors then you can abuse
them how you like with little consequence but if you are putting them into a
UPS that you rely on I would err on the side of caution.
My interest was more out of curiosity. I.e., *can* I (reliably) get additional
life from them with some modest amount of effort (they are ~$200/ea). Even if
that meant exposing the inter-cell connections to recondition the cells
individually.

[lots of youtube videos and the like but I suspect many
of those folks are *just* tinkering and not really expecting
any savings from their efforts (no one ever follows up to
indicate how long the battery\'s service was extended nor
how its capacity was affected)]

Of course, that means finding a place to store them (or,
reinstall in UPS) instead of enjoying a bit less clutter! :-/

So, anyone with first-hand experience on these larger units?

Not sure how big group 24 AGM is...
Roughly the size of the starting battery used in a 6-8 cylinder vehicle
(e.g., they\'re 48 pounds, each)
 
D

Don Y

Guest
On 10/14/2020 1:12 PM, Martin Riddle wrote:
So, anyone with first-hand experience on these larger units?

I just tried to Equalize a GP12120 AGM that is 5 years old. No dice
for this one. Some say 5-8 hrs will pull off the sulfation but I had
no luck, only 1/2 capacity left.
Are you just dealing with the battery using its \"endpoint\" terminals?

On the other Hand I have another CSB 7AH battery that has not been
used in 4 years and it still has the rated capacity.
I\'m not sure I\'d bother with smaller batteries -- they\'re relatively
inexpensive (esp if you buy them in lots of 10+).

For the group 24, check witht he mfg, some say yes to equalization and
some say no.
 
J

Jasen Betts

Guest
On 2020-10-15, Ricketty C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:
Never tried to check battery\'s service life before/after nor the
capacity.
....
Oh, to tweak some of you, i stored all of them on my cement garage floor.

I worked at Sears one Christmas season in the garage. We would charge batteries, slowly, for a day or two and then test them. The guy teaching me emphasized strongly to sit the battery on a piece of wood instead of the concrete. I have no idea how that is supposed to make any difference other than possibly temperature. Let a liquid container sit on a concrete floor and it most likely will be a couple or few degrees colder than if it is not on the floor directly.

Has anyone ever heard a rational for this idea?
I heard \"The temperature difference room air vs floor causes the electolyte to
form layers\"

--
Jasen.
 
R

Robert Baer

Guest
Martin Brown wrote:
On 14/10/2020 20:59, Don Y wrote:
I\'ve a dozen group 24 AGM batteries pulled from one of my
UPSs as \"approaching end of life\" (easier to pull them
while they aren\'t complaining than to wait until they
sh*t the bed at some inappropriate time!)

I\'m debating idling that UPS, for a while.  So, the logical
thing to do is just recycle the old batteries and bank the
\"core charges\" for the day when I need to replace them in
the future.

*But*, I can also tinker with them to see if there\'s any
practical way of extending their useful life!

My experience of SLAs in UPSs is that they are toast once they begin to
swell and nothing you can do will make them recover. Also you probably
don\'t want to put them back into a unit since they can swell up enough
to deform the metal frame and make removal very difficult before the UPS
fails them on self test. So far I have never encountered one that had
swelled enough to burst but some were very reluctant to come out.

If you are using them for powering a cattle fence outdoors then you can
abuse them how you like with little consequence but if you are putting
them into a UPS that you rely on I would err on the side of caution.

[lots of youtube videos and the like but I suspect many
of those folks are *just* tinkering and not really expecting
any savings from their efforts (no one ever follows up to
indicate how long the battery\'s service was extended nor
how its capacity was affected)]

Of course, that means finding a place to store them (or,
reinstall in UPS) instead of enjoying a bit less clutter!  :-/

So, anyone with first-hand experience on these larger units?

Not sure how big group 24 AGM is...
Yes, any swelling or bulge is an indication that they should be
discarded via sales as scrap lead.

Think i mentioned i worked on truck batteries, much larger.
 
R

Robert Baer

Guest
Jasen Betts wrote:
On 2020-10-15, Ricketty C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:
Never tried to check battery\'s service life before/after nor the
capacity.
...
Oh, to tweak some of you, i stored all of them on my cement garage floor.

I worked at Sears one Christmas season in the garage. We would charge batteries, slowly, for a day or two and then test them. The guy teaching me emphasized strongly to sit the battery on a piece of wood instead of the concrete. I have no idea how that is supposed to make any difference other than possibly temperature. Let a liquid container sit on a concrete floor and it most likely will be a couple or few degrees colder than if it is not on the floor directly.

Has anyone ever heard a rational for this idea?

I heard \"The temperature difference room air vs floor causes the electolyte to
form layers\"
That could not happen with an AGM.
 
B

boB

Guest
On Wed, 14 Oct 2020 12:59:37 -0700, Don Y
<blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:

I\'ve a dozen group 24 AGM batteries pulled from one of my
UPSs as \"approaching end of life\" (easier to pull them
while they aren\'t complaining than to wait until they
sh*t the bed at some inappropriate time!)

I\'m debating idling that UPS, for a while. So, the logical
thing to do is just recycle the old batteries and bank the
\"core charges\" for the day when I need to replace them in
the future.

*But*, I can also tinker with them to see if there\'s any
practical way of extending their useful life!

[lots of youtube videos and the like but I suspect many
of those folks are *just* tinkering and not really expecting
any savings from their efforts (no one ever follows up to
indicate how long the battery\'s service was extended nor
how its capacity was affected)]

Of course, that means finding a place to store them (or,
reinstall in UPS) instead of enjoying a bit less clutter! :-/

So, anyone with first-hand experience on these larger units?
Thought you meant Sealed Lead Acid. AGM is a lead acid battery that
is sealed but SLA is also a flooded/liquid lead acid battery without
the glass mat.

AGMs plump when you cook them. i.e. they get fat when it gets hot.

My expereice with plump AGMs that have gotten hot as a result of
inbalance between batteries is that they aren\'t much good anymore.

The way to balance pretty much any lead acid battery bank is to charge
each one individually at the proper absorb voltage for the
manufacturer\'s recommended amount of time... Usually a couple hours
or maybe more. After they batteries are at the same voltage then you
can try putting them back into a series string again (if they were in
a string) and try again. If the one AGM starts to act up, get new
batteries.
If they were in parallel, then it\'s easier since they are by
definition at the same voltage.
 
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