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pretty OT: boats...

K

ke...@kjwdesigns.com

Guest
On Monday, 14 September 2020 at 23:44:12 UTC-7, Ricketty C wrote:
....
Trickle charging a car battery over six to eight hours isn\'t going to be a problem. The power grid has dealt with people building more houses, and putting in electric powered devices - most recently air conditioners - for it\'s whole existence. They will be able to cope.
\"Trickle\" charging won\'t accomplish much in 6 hours. Charging an EV at a useful rate takes as much CONTINUOUS power as the heat coils in my furnace which only runs sporadically on the coldest winter nights. That\'s the point.. One night the four homes on a common transformer may not charge at all. Another night they may all four be charging eight cars. This may not happen often, but the system has to be able to supply those extra kW compared to the loads they used to supply. In some neighborhoods this will require upgrades of the local distribution. Otherwise no other part of the grid will be remotely stressed.
You are assuming that there is no demand-side management - yes ideally the supply would be able to the worst case. But provided that the cars are charged by some reasonable time in the morning they don\'t need to all charge at the full rate.

The hardware is already present in many residential chargers and with some agreement on protocols can be centrally controlled.
Suitable compensation in the form of reduced tariffs can encourage the customer to use the capability and have very little inconvenience.

The power companies already do it for A/C loads in some parts of the US and do more in other countries. Our local company PG&E just adds a small controller into the heating controller in return for a lower rate.

kw
 
R

Ricketty C

Guest
On Tuesday, September 15, 2020 at 6:04:55 PM UTC-4, ke...@kjwdesigns.com wrote:
On Monday, 14 September 2020 at 23:44:12 UTC-7, Ricketty C wrote:
...
Trickle charging a car battery over six to eight hours isn\'t going to be a problem. The power grid has dealt with people building more houses, and putting in electric powered devices - most recently air conditioners - for it\'s whole existence. They will be able to cope.
\"Trickle\" charging won\'t accomplish much in 6 hours. Charging an EV at a useful rate takes as much CONTINUOUS power as the heat coils in my furnace which only runs sporadically on the coldest winter nights. That\'s the point. One night the four homes on a common transformer may not charge at all. Another night they may all four be charging eight cars. This may not happen often, but the system has to be able to supply those extra kW compared to the loads they used to supply. In some neighborhoods this will require upgrades of the local distribution. Otherwise no other part of the grid will be remotely stressed.

You are assuming that there is no demand-side management - yes ideally the supply would be able to the worst case. But provided that the cars are charged by some reasonable time in the morning they don\'t need to all charge at the full rate.
I\'m not assuming anything. There is no supply side management. Anything can be done in a perfect future, but it is a long road with many hurdles to get something agreed on that is effective and takes into account all party\'s interest. This is exactly what I would propose rather than have the electric companies go to the oversight boards and impose a universal fee for expanding the local distribution and I have talked about this here. I just don\'t think it will happen without lots of vocal users. The power companies have a vested interest in adding all manner of capital if it can be done at other\'s expense.

Dominion Power did massive amounts of work to get a license for building nuclear generators in Virginia and got the legislature to allow them to bill the consumers for the half billion it cost. They may or may not ever build the plants. So why did \"we\" get the bill?

Being charged by \"some reasonable time\" doesn\'t cut it. Batteries are most effective when at operating temperature. EV owners charge their cars so they finish and are still warm when they are ready to leave on cold mornings.. This is at odds with minimizing overlap of charging and heating.


The hardware is already present in many residential chargers and with some agreement on protocols can be centrally controlled.
Suitable compensation in the form of reduced tariffs can encourage the customer to use the capability and have very little inconvenience.
I do that now, but it isn\'t panning out really. The electricity my car uses is not so much of my total bill. There\'s also the fact that the billing is set for the generating peaks which is not the same as the residential distribution peaks.


> The power companies already do it for A/C loads in some parts of the US and do more in other countries. Our local company PG&E just adds a small controller into the heating controller in return for a lower rate.

Yeah, that can\'t really work for heating. Every heating unit cycles on and off independently so are already scattered across time. The only thing they can do that would be effective is to cut back on your overall heating energy usage during the cold spells which means your home is not warm. They tried that in Maryland and then gave it up. I\'m sure the consumers paid the bill for that too, just not up front. They have a special \"fee\" in Maryland for those sorts of programs. I got freebies a couple of times from them.

Oh, the cars can certainly be made to feed AC back into the line, but it\'s not so simple as putting boards in the cars. There are numerous safety issues involved in addition to various regulatory issues. Try connecting a solar generation capability that isn\'t 100% hard wired. It won\'t be approved for you to throw the switch.

Bottom line is once EV owners realize how expensive batteries are to replace they will never consider burning them up with this sort of plan.

--

Rick C.

---- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
---- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
 
F

Flyguy

Guest
On Sunday, September 13, 2020 at 11:23:29 AM UTC-7, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Sun, 13 Sep 2020 12:38:33 -0400, Phil Hobbs
pcdhSpamM...@electrooptical.net> wrote:

On 2020-09-12 22:20, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Fri, 11 Sep 2020 18:53:34 -0700 (PDT), George Herold
gghe...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Friday, September 11, 2020 at 7:35:14 PM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:
On Fri, 11 Sep 2020 16:27:18 -0700 (PDT), George Herold
gghe...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Friday, September 11, 2020 at 12:27:00 PM UTC-4, dagmarg...@yahoo.com wrote:
On Thursday, September 10, 2020 at 1:59:25 PM UTC-4, Phil Hobbs wrote:
On 2020-09-10 11:21, George Herold wrote:
On Wednesday, September 9, 2020 at 1:59:46 PM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:
Up here in the country, I see a lot of motor boats parked in
driveways. I suspect that most are seldom or never used.

I got curious about cost. Seems like a dinky outboard motor costs
$1000, and some are $8K or $25K or even $45K. And a serious speed
freak will hang three on the stern.

I can envision some domestic discord.
My brother bought a used 15\' motor boat for ~$2.5k
Used for fishing andd beer drinking with the boys.
(no girls allowed. :^)

Yeah, with a fibreglass boat you can keep it looking nice for decades.
My Hobie 16 was 20 years old when I bought it for $1200 and 29 when I
sold it on eBay for $1k. (I did buy a swoopy new trailer for $750 and a
new trampoline for $150, so my TCO was about $120 per year not counting
boatyard space.)

I\'m from a family of planing dinghy sailors, but I once cartwheeled a
Hobie-16 in the Gulf of Mexico. :)

We were screaming along on in a lively breeze, heeled dangerously hard,
155# sea salt me in trapeze and 200# noob owner on the trampoline astern at
the helm. I \'bout lost my vocal chords \'requesting\' he slack off the
main or luff up a bit, when a wee bitty puff heeled us a mite harder, we buried
the lee bow, the boat stopped instantaneously, and the wire catapulted
me skyward...jolly good fun!

It looked a bit like this:
https://southern-born-and-bred.blogspot.com/2011/06/wipeout-crew-sent-flying-as-new.html
Yikes, fun as long as you don\'t get banged by the boom.
The only ~sunfish* mishap I recall vividly is when we planted
the front half in a wave... boat on a broad reach. For a moment
I thought the boat was going to pop up backwards, but after coming
to a dead stop it mangled to shrug off the wave and continue on.
(slightly different tack afterwards :^)

George H.


*it was a bit bigger than a sunfish and no cockpit.

Righting the beast in the blow and chop was a bear and we had to do it
over and over, as we\'d no sooner get righted than knocked down again
(it took the skipper several tries to grok pointing into the weather
long enough for us to re-board).

(Also, there was that first delay during the time I needed to stop laughing
hysterically, then convince the first-outing skipper that we weren\'t actually
going to die.)

In the end we got the boat up and had a great deal more fun that day before
sailing in, sunburned and smiling.

Good times!

Cheers,
James Arthur

In Lake Pontchartrain, if you flip a sunfish mid-lake, you can stick
the mast in the bottom. Makes it hard to flip it back over. Then you
have to clean the mud out of the rigging.

As they say, the lake is bottomless; it just gets thicker as you go
down.

And as they say, it\'s a good place to be from.
Grin, Well \'round here if you can swim down and touch the plants
or mud on the bottom we call it a pond, or wet lands if it drys
out in the summer. :^)

Did the shallow bottom lead to big waves?

No, Lake P was pretty placid, a huge 12-foot-deep saucer. The real
danger was a thunderstorm sneaking up on drunken sailors. Guy I know
killed a girl when a storm snuck up while they were swimming. His
anchor line was too short, it pulled out, and the boat took off and
left the swimmers behind.



Yikes, they left the sails up?

Cheers

Phil Hobbs
Knowing Bill, probably so. He managed to catch onto the anchor line
and eventually pulled himself into the boat, got control, and motored
back. Too late for one girl.

We used to sit on the lake levee and watch thunderstorms sweep in, a
vertical wall of water and lightning. Then sit in the refreshing warm
rain. I miss thunderstorms; we don\'t get them here. But the skiing is
better, and a blizzard can be interesting too.

SF is cold and very foggy today. It doesn\'t smell smokey. Maybe a
little smoke makes nucleation centers for the fog.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ehra0oalj1jmgv1/Fog_9_13_2020.JPG?raw=1

Real smelly smoke on I80 yesterday:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/8veqz9biaajn4r3/Smoke_Lincoin.jpg?raw=1

It was like that all the way from the mountains to the coast.
Interesting times.

Today\'s New York Times has a bunch of stuff about the west coast fires
and forest (mis)management. People are beginning to admit some things.
--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

Science teaches us to doubt.

Claude Bernard
What the fuck does this have to do with Electronics, John?
 
P

Phil Hobbs

Guest
On 2020-09-15 22:33, Flyguy wrote:
On Sunday, September 13, 2020 at 11:23:29 AM UTC-7, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Sun, 13 Sep 2020 12:38:33 -0400, Phil Hobbs
pcdhSpamM...@electrooptical.net> wrote:

On 2020-09-12 22:20, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Fri, 11 Sep 2020 18:53:34 -0700 (PDT), George Herold
gghe...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Friday, September 11, 2020 at 7:35:14 PM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:
On Fri, 11 Sep 2020 16:27:18 -0700 (PDT), George Herold
gghe...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Friday, September 11, 2020 at 12:27:00 PM UTC-4, dagmarg...@yahoo.com wrote:
On Thursday, September 10, 2020 at 1:59:25 PM UTC-4, Phil Hobbs wrote:
On 2020-09-10 11:21, George Herold wrote:
On Wednesday, September 9, 2020 at 1:59:46 PM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:
Up here in the country, I see a lot of motor boats parked in
driveways. I suspect that most are seldom or never used.

I got curious about cost. Seems like a dinky outboard motor costs
$1000, and some are $8K or $25K or even $45K. And a serious speed
freak will hang three on the stern.

I can envision some domestic discord.
My brother bought a used 15\' motor boat for ~$2.5k
Used for fishing andd beer drinking with the boys.
(no girls allowed. :^)

Yeah, with a fibreglass boat you can keep it looking nice for decades.
My Hobie 16 was 20 years old when I bought it for $1200 and 29 when I
sold it on eBay for $1k. (I did buy a swoopy new trailer for $750 and a
new trampoline for $150, so my TCO was about $120 per year not counting
boatyard space.)

I\'m from a family of planing dinghy sailors, but I once cartwheeled a
Hobie-16 in the Gulf of Mexico. :)

We were screaming along on in a lively breeze, heeled dangerously hard,
155# sea salt me in trapeze and 200# noob owner on the trampoline astern at
the helm. I \'bout lost my vocal chords \'requesting\' he slack off the
main or luff up a bit, when a wee bitty puff heeled us a mite harder, we buried
the lee bow, the boat stopped instantaneously, and the wire catapulted
me skyward...jolly good fun!

It looked a bit like this:
https://southern-born-and-bred.blogspot.com/2011/06/wipeout-crew-sent-flying-as-new.html
Yikes, fun as long as you don\'t get banged by the boom.
The only ~sunfish* mishap I recall vividly is when we planted
the front half in a wave... boat on a broad reach. For a moment
I thought the boat was going to pop up backwards, but after coming
to a dead stop it mangled to shrug off the wave and continue on.
(slightly different tack afterwards :^)

George H.


*it was a bit bigger than a sunfish and no cockpit.

Righting the beast in the blow and chop was a bear and we had to do it
over and over, as we\'d no sooner get righted than knocked down again
(it took the skipper several tries to grok pointing into the weather
long enough for us to re-board).

(Also, there was that first delay during the time I needed to stop laughing
hysterically, then convince the first-outing skipper that we weren\'t actually
going to die.)

In the end we got the boat up and had a great deal more fun that day before
sailing in, sunburned and smiling.

Good times!

Cheers,
James Arthur

In Lake Pontchartrain, if you flip a sunfish mid-lake, you can stick
the mast in the bottom. Makes it hard to flip it back over. Then you
have to clean the mud out of the rigging.

As they say, the lake is bottomless; it just gets thicker as you go
down.

And as they say, it\'s a good place to be from.
Grin, Well \'round here if you can swim down and touch the plants
or mud on the bottom we call it a pond, or wet lands if it drys
out in the summer. :^)

Did the shallow bottom lead to big waves?

No, Lake P was pretty placid, a huge 12-foot-deep saucer. The real
danger was a thunderstorm sneaking up on drunken sailors. Guy I know
killed a girl when a storm snuck up while they were swimming. His
anchor line was too short, it pulled out, and the boat took off and
left the swimmers behind.



Yikes, they left the sails up?

Cheers

Phil Hobbs
Knowing Bill, probably so. He managed to catch onto the anchor line
and eventually pulled himself into the boat, got control, and motored
back. Too late for one girl.

We used to sit on the lake levee and watch thunderstorms sweep in, a
vertical wall of water and lightning. Then sit in the refreshing warm
rain. I miss thunderstorms; we don\'t get them here. But the skiing is
better, and a blizzard can be interesting too.

SF is cold and very foggy today. It doesn\'t smell smokey. Maybe a
little smoke makes nucleation centers for the fog.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ehra0oalj1jmgv1/Fog_9_13_2020.JPG?raw=1

Real smelly smoke on I80 yesterday:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/8veqz9biaajn4r3/Smoke_Lincoin.jpg?raw=1

It was like that all the way from the mountains to the coast.
Interesting times.

Today\'s New York Times has a bunch of stuff about the west coast fires
and forest (mis)management. People are beginning to admit some things.
--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

Science teaches us to doubt.

Claude Bernard

What the fuck does this have to do with Electronics, John?
That\'s how we pay for the boats, silly. ;)

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

http://electrooptical.net
http://hobbs-eo.com
 
B

Bill Sloman

Guest
On Wednesday, September 16, 2020 at 11:24:03 AM UTC+10, Ricketty C wrote:
On Tuesday, September 15, 2020 at 6:04:55 PM UTC-4, ke...@kjwdesigns.com wrote:
On Monday, 14 September 2020 at 23:44:12 UTC-7, Ricketty C wrote:
<snip>

> Bottom line is once EV owners realize how expensive batteries are to replace they will never consider burning them up with this sort of plan.

Bottom line is that once the power system decides that it is sensible to use the batteries in parked electric cars for grid storage, the batteries will become much cheaper to replace - the car manufacturers may want to price them as single-sourced spare parts, but they won\'t be able to get away with it.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney
 
J

John Larkin

Guest
On Tue, 15 Sep 2020 19:33:27 -0700 (PDT), Flyguy
<soar2morrow@yahoo.com> wrote:

On Sunday, September 13, 2020 at 11:23:29 AM UTC-7, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Sun, 13 Sep 2020 12:38:33 -0400, Phil Hobbs
pcdhSpamM...@electrooptical.net> wrote:

On 2020-09-12 22:20, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Fri, 11 Sep 2020 18:53:34 -0700 (PDT), George Herold
gghe...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Friday, September 11, 2020 at 7:35:14 PM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:
On Fri, 11 Sep 2020 16:27:18 -0700 (PDT), George Herold
gghe...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Friday, September 11, 2020 at 12:27:00 PM UTC-4, dagmarg...@yahoo.com wrote:
On Thursday, September 10, 2020 at 1:59:25 PM UTC-4, Phil Hobbs wrote:
On 2020-09-10 11:21, George Herold wrote:
On Wednesday, September 9, 2020 at 1:59:46 PM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:
Up here in the country, I see a lot of motor boats parked in
driveways. I suspect that most are seldom or never used.

I got curious about cost. Seems like a dinky outboard motor costs
$1000, and some are $8K or $25K or even $45K. And a serious speed
freak will hang three on the stern.

I can envision some domestic discord.
My brother bought a used 15\' motor boat for ~$2.5k
Used for fishing andd beer drinking with the boys.
(no girls allowed. :^)

Yeah, with a fibreglass boat you can keep it looking nice for decades.
My Hobie 16 was 20 years old when I bought it for $1200 and 29 when I
sold it on eBay for $1k. (I did buy a swoopy new trailer for $750 and a
new trampoline for $150, so my TCO was about $120 per year not counting
boatyard space.)

I\'m from a family of planing dinghy sailors, but I once cartwheeled a
Hobie-16 in the Gulf of Mexico. :)

We were screaming along on in a lively breeze, heeled dangerously hard,
155# sea salt me in trapeze and 200# noob owner on the trampoline astern at
the helm. I \'bout lost my vocal chords \'requesting\' he slack off the
main or luff up a bit, when a wee bitty puff heeled us a mite harder, we buried
the lee bow, the boat stopped instantaneously, and the wire catapulted
me skyward...jolly good fun!

It looked a bit like this:
https://southern-born-and-bred.blogspot.com/2011/06/wipeout-crew-sent-flying-as-new.html
Yikes, fun as long as you don\'t get banged by the boom.
The only ~sunfish* mishap I recall vividly is when we planted
the front half in a wave... boat on a broad reach. For a moment
I thought the boat was going to pop up backwards, but after coming
to a dead stop it mangled to shrug off the wave and continue on.
(slightly different tack afterwards :^)

George H.


*it was a bit bigger than a sunfish and no cockpit.

Righting the beast in the blow and chop was a bear and we had to do it
over and over, as we\'d no sooner get righted than knocked down again
(it took the skipper several tries to grok pointing into the weather
long enough for us to re-board).

(Also, there was that first delay during the time I needed to stop laughing
hysterically, then convince the first-outing skipper that we weren\'t actually
going to die.)

In the end we got the boat up and had a great deal more fun that day before
sailing in, sunburned and smiling.

Good times!

Cheers,
James Arthur

In Lake Pontchartrain, if you flip a sunfish mid-lake, you can stick
the mast in the bottom. Makes it hard to flip it back over. Then you
have to clean the mud out of the rigging.

As they say, the lake is bottomless; it just gets thicker as you go
down.

And as they say, it\'s a good place to be from.
Grin, Well \'round here if you can swim down and touch the plants
or mud on the bottom we call it a pond, or wet lands if it drys
out in the summer. :^)

Did the shallow bottom lead to big waves?

No, Lake P was pretty placid, a huge 12-foot-deep saucer. The real
danger was a thunderstorm sneaking up on drunken sailors. Guy I know
killed a girl when a storm snuck up while they were swimming. His
anchor line was too short, it pulled out, and the boat took off and
left the swimmers behind.



Yikes, they left the sails up?

Cheers

Phil Hobbs
Knowing Bill, probably so. He managed to catch onto the anchor line
and eventually pulled himself into the boat, got control, and motored
back. Too late for one girl.

We used to sit on the lake levee and watch thunderstorms sweep in, a
vertical wall of water and lightning. Then sit in the refreshing warm
rain. I miss thunderstorms; we don\'t get them here. But the skiing is
better, and a blizzard can be interesting too.

SF is cold and very foggy today. It doesn\'t smell smokey. Maybe a
little smoke makes nucleation centers for the fog.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ehra0oalj1jmgv1/Fog_9_13_2020.JPG?raw=1

Real smelly smoke on I80 yesterday:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/8veqz9biaajn4r3/Smoke_Lincoin.jpg?raw=1

It was like that all the way from the mountains to the coast.
Interesting times.

Today\'s New York Times has a bunch of stuff about the west coast fires
and forest (mis)management. People are beginning to admit some things.
--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

Science teaches us to doubt.

Claude Bernard

What the fuck does this have to do with Electronics, John?
Humble apologies. Let\'s talk about your oscilloscopes, and some
circuits that you have designed.
 
L

Les Cargill

Guest
jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Sun, 13 Sep 2020 14:26:10 -0700 (PDT), Lasse Langwadt Christensen
langwadt@fonz.dk> wrote:

søndag den 13. september 2020 kl. 23.12.03 UTC+2 skrev jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com:
On Sun, 13 Sep 2020 15:28:58 -0400, Phil Hobbs
pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

On 2020-09-13 14:23, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Sun, 13 Sep 2020 12:38:33 -0400, Phil Hobbs
pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

On 2020-09-12 22:20, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Fri, 11 Sep 2020 18:53:34 -0700 (PDT), George Herold
ggherold@gmail.com> wrote:

On Friday, September 11, 2020 at 7:35:14 PM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:
On Fri, 11 Sep 2020 16:27:18 -0700 (PDT), George Herold
ggherold@gmail.com> wrote:

On Friday, September 11, 2020 at 12:27:00 PM UTC-4, dagmarg...@yahoo.com wrote:
On Thursday, September 10, 2020 at 1:59:25 PM UTC-4, Phil Hobbs wrote:
On 2020-09-10 11:21, George Herold wrote:
On Wednesday, September 9, 2020 at 1:59:46 PM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:
Up here in the country, I see a lot of motor boats parked in
driveways. I suspect that most are seldom or never used.

I got curious about cost. Seems like a dinky outboard motor costs
$1000, and some are $8K or $25K or even $45K. And a serious speed
freak will hang three on the stern.

I can envision some domestic discord.
My brother bought a used 15\' motor boat for ~$2.5k
Used for fishing andd beer drinking with the boys.
(no girls allowed. :^)

Yeah, with a fibreglass boat you can keep it looking nice for decades.
My Hobie 16 was 20 years old when I bought it for $1200 and 29 when I
sold it on eBay for $1k. (I did buy a swoopy new trailer for $750 and a
new trampoline for $150, so my TCO was about $120 per year not counting
boatyard space.)

I\'m from a family of planing dinghy sailors, but I once cartwheeled a
Hobie-16 in the Gulf of Mexico. :)

We were screaming along on in a lively breeze, heeled dangerously hard,
155# sea salt me in trapeze and 200# noob owner on the trampoline astern at
the helm. I \'bout lost my vocal chords \'requesting\' he slack off the
main or luff up a bit, when a wee bitty puff heeled us a mite harder, we buried
the lee bow, the boat stopped instantaneously, and the wire catapulted
me skyward...jolly good fun!

It looked a bit like this:
https://southern-born-and-bred.blogspot.com/2011/06/wipeout-crew-sent-flying-as-new.html
Yikes, fun as long as you don\'t get banged by the boom.
The only ~sunfish* mishap I recall vividly is when we planted
the front half in a wave... boat on a broad reach. For a moment
I thought the boat was going to pop up backwards, but after coming
to a dead stop it mangled to shrug off the wave and continue on.
(slightly different tack afterwards :^)

George H.


*it was a bit bigger than a sunfish and no cockpit.

Righting the beast in the blow and chop was a bear and we had to do it
over and over, as we\'d no sooner get righted than knocked down again
(it took the skipper several tries to grok pointing into the weather
long enough for us to re-board).

(Also, there was that first delay during the time I needed to stop laughing
hysterically, then convince the first-outing skipper that we weren\'t actually
going to die.)

In the end we got the boat up and had a great deal more fun that day before
sailing in, sunburned and smiling.

Good times!

Cheers,
James Arthur

In Lake Pontchartrain, if you flip a sunfish mid-lake, you can stick
the mast in the bottom. Makes it hard to flip it back over. Then you
have to clean the mud out of the rigging.

As they say, the lake is bottomless; it just gets thicker as you go
down.

And as they say, it\'s a good place to be from.
Grin, Well \'round here if you can swim down and touch the plants
or mud on the bottom we call it a pond, or wet lands if it drys
out in the summer. :^)

Did the shallow bottom lead to big waves?

No, Lake P was pretty placid, a huge 12-foot-deep saucer. The real
danger was a thunderstorm sneaking up on drunken sailors. Guy I know
killed a girl when a storm snuck up while they were swimming. His
anchor line was too short, it pulled out, and the boat took off and
left the swimmers behind.



Yikes, they left the sails up?

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

Knowing Bill, probably so. He managed to catch onto the anchor line
and eventually pulled himself into the boat, got control, and motored
back. Too late for one girl.

We used to sit on the lake levee and watch thunderstorms sweep in, a
vertical wall of water and lightning. Then sit in the refreshing warm
rain. I miss thunderstorms; we don\'t get them here.

I lived in San Mateo during the autumn of 1984, on account of a shortage
of married-student housing at the U. (We got back into student housing
at Christmas.)

In September that year, a really remarkable squall line came
through--the sky was full of lightning all night, on both sides of the
building. (We were on the north side, and had views east and west.) Mo
and I stayed up most of the night to watch it.

One of the two most impressive thunderstorm displays I\'ve ever seen.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

A few weeks ago, we were awakened by a gigantic light show in the
southern sky. That cluster was reported as 12,000 ground strikes. That
was the start of the current mess.

We go for years here without seeing lightning.

I think this was one of them, https://youtu.be/CctTDj6SN1U

Nice video, but his theory may be wrong. Lightning most likely starts
from the ground, because that\'s where the sharp objects are. Clouds
are pretty fuzzy.
There\'s more than one case - two of them are ground-to-cloud and
cloud-to-ground. SFAIK, cloud-to-ground involves some charge moving up
from ground as well.

--
Les Cargill
 
S

server

Guest
On Sunday, September 13, 2020 at 6:34:14 PM UTC-4, Clifford Heath wrote:
On 14/9/20 4:33 am, dagmargoodboat@yahoo.com wrote:
Dad sailed 505\'s and Aussie 18\'s; big brother and I sailed the 470, 420, and the
Moth (a single-hander mini Aussie 18). Moths came to the U.S. about contemporaneously
with the Laser, but neither was well-known or popular at the time time Dad ponied up for ours.

In the Aussie 18 tradition, the Moth class has shallow draft, unlimited sail, and it\'s unstable--it\'ll
fall over at the dock unless there\'s someone in it. And it screams.

We had a Moth for a while. The sail area and hull design is actually
unrestricted, apart from overall length and maximum beam. Most are
skiffs, but ours was a flat \"bread-board\" with aluminium butterfly wings
for hiking. It was definitely a handful.

I hate to think what the new hydrofoil Moths are like to sail. Those
things can pass 60km/hr, and riding above the water as they do, if you
lose control, it\'s a full-on crash.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-11-30/how-moth-class-hydrofoil-sailing-boats-rocked-americas-cup/11748064
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moth_(dinghy)

Clifford Heath.
That was great stuff -- I spent a couple long nights watching videos,
catching up on Moths and foiling. Awesome.

Cheers,
James Arthur
 
C

Clifford Heath

Guest
On 24/9/20 7:00 am, dagmargoodboat@yahoo.com wrote:
On Sunday, September 13, 2020 at 6:34:14 PM UTC-4, Clifford Heath wrote:
On 14/9/20 4:33 am, dagmargoodboat@yahoo.com wrote:
Dad sailed 505\'s and Aussie 18\'s; big brother and I sailed the 470, 420, and the
Moth (a single-hander mini Aussie 18). Moths came to the U.S. about contemporaneously
with the Laser, but neither was well-known or popular at the time time Dad ponied up for ours.

In the Aussie 18 tradition, the Moth class has shallow draft, unlimited sail, and it\'s unstable--it\'ll
fall over at the dock unless there\'s someone in it. And it screams.

We had a Moth for a while. The sail area and hull design is actually
unrestricted, apart from overall length and maximum beam. Most are
skiffs, but ours was a flat \"bread-board\" with aluminium butterfly wings
for hiking. It was definitely a handful.

I hate to think what the new hydrofoil Moths are like to sail. Those
things can pass 60km/hr, and riding above the water as they do, if you
lose control, it\'s a full-on crash.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-11-30/how-moth-class-hydrofoil-sailing-boats-rocked-americas-cup/11748064
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moth_(dinghy)

Clifford Heath.

That was great stuff -- I spent a couple long nights watching videos,
catching up on Moths and foiling. Awesome.
They\'re incredible to watch. Wish I was agile enough to still sail one.

Visit Sydney and take the ferry from Circular Quay to Manly or Watson\'s
Bay some sunny weekend afternoon. Thousands of fast boats all out doing
their best, and these little hydrofoil Moths just look like dragonflies
flitting amongst a horde of snails.

Clifford Heath.
 
F

Flyguy

Guest
On Tuesday, September 15, 2020 at 9:21:02 PM UTC-7, Bill Sloman wrote:
On Wednesday, September 16, 2020 at 11:24:03 AM UTC+10, Ricketty C wrote:
On Tuesday, September 15, 2020 at 6:04:55 PM UTC-4, ke...@kjwdesigns.com wrote:
On Monday, 14 September 2020 at 23:44:12 UTC-7, Ricketty C wrote:

snip

Bottom line is once EV owners realize how expensive batteries are to replace they will never consider burning them up with this sort of plan.

Bottom line is that once the power system decides that it is sensible to use the batteries in parked electric cars for grid storage, the batteries will become much cheaper to replace - the car manufacturers may want to price them as single-sourced spare parts, but they won\'t be able to get away with it.

--
SL0W MAN, Sydney
Hey SL0W MAN,

Do that and you will just wear out your expensive battery pack quicker and the EV manufacturers will revoke your 100,000-mile warranty.
 
C

Chris

Guest
On 09/24/20 23:31, Flyguy wrote:
On Tuesday, September 15, 2020 at 9:21:02 PM UTC-7, Bill Sloman wrote:
On Wednesday, September 16, 2020 at 11:24:03 AM UTC+10, Ricketty C wrote:
On Tuesday, September 15, 2020 at 6:04:55 PM UTC-4, ke...@kjwdesigns.com wrote:
On Monday, 14 September 2020 at 23:44:12 UTC-7, Ricketty C wrote:

snip

Bottom line is once EV owners realize how expensive batteries are to replace they will never consider burning them up with this sort of plan.

Bottom line is that once the power system decides that it is sensible to use the batteries in parked electric cars for grid storage, the batteries will become much cheaper to replace - the car manufacturers may want to price them as single-sourced spare parts, but they won\'t be able to get away with it.

--
SL0W MAN, Sydney
To make that possible we need common standards for battery packs and
removable, so can be exchanged for added mileage. As for grid storage,
life could be seriously impacted by the excessive discharge / charge
cycling...

Chris


Hey SL0W MAN,

Do that and you will just wear out your expensive battery pack quicker and the EV manufacturers will revoke your 100,000-mile warranty.
 
B

Bill Sloman

Guest
On Friday, September 25, 2020 at 8:31:37 AM UTC+10, Flyguy wrote:
On Tuesday, September 15, 2020 at 9:21:02 PM UTC-7, Bill Sloman wrote:
On Wednesday, September 16, 2020 at 11:24:03 AM UTC+10, Ricketty C wrote:
On Tuesday, September 15, 2020 at 6:04:55 PM UTC-4, ke...@kjwdesigns.com wrote:
On Monday, 14 September 2020 at 23:44:12 UTC-7, Ricketty C wrote:

snip

Bottom line is once EV owners realize how expensive batteries are to replace they will never consider burning them up with this sort of plan.

Bottom line is that once the power system decides that it is sensible to use the batteries in parked electric cars for grid storage, the batteries will become much cheaper to replace - the car manufacturers may want to price them as single-sourced spare parts, but they won\'t be able to get away with it.

Do that and you will just wear out your expensive battery pack quicker and the EV manufacturers will revoke your 100,000-mile warranty.
The deal is that you get paid for the wear on the battery pack. There are all sort of thing that the electric vehicle manufacturers might try to do to rip off their customers, but if society as a whole sees the sense in using the batteries in parked electric cars for grid storage - once most cars are electric the parked cars could deliver something like four or five times the peak output from the grid for some hours - the electric vehicle manufacturers aren\'t going to have that option.

We know you are too stupid to work out how this would work, so don\'t bother telling us that this doesn\'t make sense to you. Few things do.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney
 
R

Ricketty C

Guest
On Thursday, September 24, 2020 at 6:42:50 PM UTC-4, Chris wrote:
On 09/24/20 23:31, Flyguy wrote:
On Tuesday, September 15, 2020 at 9:21:02 PM UTC-7, Bill Sloman wrote:
On Wednesday, September 16, 2020 at 11:24:03 AM UTC+10, Ricketty C wrote:
On Tuesday, September 15, 2020 at 6:04:55 PM UTC-4, ke...@kjwdesigns.com wrote:
On Monday, 14 September 2020 at 23:44:12 UTC-7, Ricketty C wrote:

snip

Bottom line is once EV owners realize how expensive batteries are to replace they will never consider burning them up with this sort of plan.

Bottom line is that once the power system decides that it is sensible to use the batteries in parked electric cars for grid storage, the batteries will become much cheaper to replace - the car manufacturers may want to price them as single-sourced spare parts, but they won\'t be able to get away with it.
Lol! As if anyone can force a company to not optimize there profits on selling a product. Are we going to have price controls? Batteries will remain a proprietary product with no qualification of third party batteries for some years.

The problem is there is no market pressure to have a third party battery industry. Just the opposite, there is significant pressure to offer a \"better\" battery tuned to the car and vice versa. It will be decades (if then) before there is a market force for third party batteries because they presently last so long few will ever need to replace them. It\'s hard to create a market force from something that seldom happens.


To make that possible we need common standards for battery packs and
removable, so can be exchanged for added mileage. As for grid storage,
life could be seriously impacted by the excessive discharge / charge
cycling...
The battery replacement thing will never fly for one very good reason. They are so damned expensive. Are you going to buy a brand new car and swap your 100% capacity battery for some piece of crap, been through the ringer dross with only 70% the capacity just to save 20 minutes charging time on a trip??? Then there are the humongous logistics of operating such a battery swap facility.

The trip issue will be resolved by slightly longer ranges. My X has a 230 mile real range (90% down to 10%) which will be reduced by the locations of trip chargers. Get that \"real\" range up to 320 miles and you have a car that can run 4 hours without charging and you will want to take a meal break anyway. Two of those are a day for most people and the car can charge over night.

Tesla model S has qualified a version with nearly 400 mile range so the cars are there. It\'s now a matter of dropping the price and size/weight a bit more to make EVs every bit as useful as ICE on trips and affordable.

The battery performance is within 20% of being there and the cost needs to drop by 33%. I expect they will be there in 5 years.

Meanwhile EVs are great for every day cars taking the kids to school and grocery shopping as long as you can charge at home. If you live in an apartment or condo where they don\'t have charging facilities to plug in over night, you have to actually think about charging. Then it becomes like an ICE having to stop for gas.


> > Do that and you will just wear out your expensive battery pack quicker and the EV manufacturers will revoke your 100,000-mile warranty.

Yeah, 100,000 mile warranties will need to do a lot better if EVs are going to become mainstream.

--

Rick C.

---+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
---+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
 
B

Bill Sloman

Guest
On Saturday, September 26, 2020 at 1:56:39 AM UTC+10, Ricketty C wrote:
On Thursday, September 24, 2020 at 6:42:50 PM UTC-4, Chris wrote:
On 09/24/20 23:31, Flyguy wrote:
On Tuesday, September 15, 2020 at 9:21:02 PM UTC-7, Bill Sloman wrote:
On Wednesday, September 16, 2020 at 11:24:03 AM UTC+10, Ricketty C wrote:
On Tuesday, September 15, 2020 at 6:04:55 PM UTC-4, ke...@kjwdesigns.com wrote:
On Monday, 14 September 2020 at 23:44:12 UTC-7, Ricketty C wrote:

snip

Bottom line is once EV owners realize how expensive batteries are to replace they will never consider burning them up with this sort of plan.

Bottom line is that once the power system decides that it is sensible to use the batteries in parked electric cars for grid storage, the batteries will become much cheaper to replace - the car manufacturers may want to price them as single-sourced spare parts, but they won\'t be able to get away with it.

Lol! As if anyone can force a company to not optimize there profits on selling a product.
If they \"optimise their profits\" by committing fraud, there are legal penalties.

> Are we going to have price controls? Batteries will remain a proprietary product with no qualification of third party batteries for some years.

Making a battery a proprietary product purely because it lets the car company price them extravagantly is exactly the kind of abuse that consumer protection legislation goes after.

> The problem is there is no market pressure to have a third party battery industry.

Not yet - it isn\'t a particularly large market, though it does seem to be expanding rapidly.

> Just the opposite, there is significant pressure to offer a \"better\" battery tuned to the car and vice versa.

And exactly how is a battery \"tuned\" to a particular car? At the moments car batteries are just stacks of identical small cells, and Telsa shipped of a bunch of them to South Australia to set up at 128MW grid-storage battery - a very different application.

>It will be decades (if then) before there is a market force for third party batteries because they presently last so long few will ever need to replace them. It\'s hard to create a market force from something that seldom happens.

But using them for grid storage while the car is parked will kill them off ever so much faster.

To make that possible we need common standards for battery packs and
removable, so can be exchanged for added mileage. As for grid storage,
life could be seriously impacted by the excessive discharge / charge
cycling....

The battery replacement thing will never fly for one very good reason. They are so damned expensive. Are you going to buy a brand new car and swap your 100% capacity battery for some piece of crap, been through the ringer dross with only 70% the capacity just to save 20 minutes charging time on a trip??? Then there are the humongous logistics of operating such a battery swap facility.
Rick\'s crystal ball is very specific about the problems with this approach. Battery capacity is measurable - you put in extra charge and see how much the output voltage rises. You have to pay attention to temperature changes in battery pack while you are doing this - but Rick\'s crystal ball doesn\'t seem to have noticed that you could do it very quickly.

The trip issue will be resolved by slightly longer ranges. My X has a 230 mile real range (90% down to 10%) which will be reduced by the locations of trip chargers. Get that \"real\" range up to 320 miles and you have a car that can run 4 hours without charging and you will want to take a meal break anyway. Two of those are a day for most people and the car can charge over night.

Tesla model S has qualified a version with nearly 400 mile range so the cars are there. It\'s now a matter of dropping the price and size/weight a bit more to make EVs every bit as useful as ICE on trips and affordable.

The battery performance is within 20% of being there and the cost needs to drop by 33%. I expect they will be there in 5 years.

Meanwhile EVs are great for every day cars taking the kids to school and grocery shopping as long as you can charge at home. If you live in an apartment or condo where they don\'t have charging facilities to plug in over night, you have to actually think about charging. Then it becomes like an ICE having to stop for gas.
Of course as electric cars become more popular, apartments and condominiums will get electric charging points in their parking spaces - they won\'t be Tesla style fast chargers, but quite fast enough to recharge a battery in a few hours. Apartments do have a connection to the grid, and it won\'t cost much to add charging points that will be able to recognise which car is getting charged and add the cost to their rent (and not charge any car that hasn\'t been linked to a resident).

> > > Do that and you will just wear out your expensive battery pack quicker and the EV manufacturers will revoke your 100,000-mile warranty.

Only if they are allowed to. If renting out the battery for grid storage becomes popular, the warranty will probably be written in terms of charging hours rather than miles travelled.

> Yeah, 100,000 mile warranties will need to do a lot better if EVs are going to become mainstream.

Probably not. It\'s cheaper to buy the energy you need to drive around as electricity, rather than gasoline - mainly because the electricity generation route wastes less of it.

Once the production of electric vehicles ramps up to the point where the manufacturing economies of scale are comparable with those for internal combustion engine cars, that advantage will make them mainstream very rapidly. Market penetration is already rising rapidly - Rick C is an early adopter, but I suspect that our next car is going to be electric.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney
 
D

dcaster@krl.org

Guest
On Tuesday, September 15, 2020 at 9:24:03 PM UTC-4, Ricketty C wrote:
On Tuesday, September 15, 2020 at 6:04:55 PM UTC-4, ke...@kjwdesigns.com wrote:
On Monday, 14 September 2020 at 23:44:12 UTC-7, Ricketty C wrote:
...
Trickle charging a car battery over six to eight hours isn\'t going to be a problem. The power grid has dealt with people building more houses, and putting in electric powered devices - most recently air conditioners - for it\'s whole existence. They will be able to cope.
\"Trickle\" charging won\'t accomplish much in 6 hours. Charging an EV at a useful rate takes as much CONTINUOUS power as the heat coils in my furnace which only runs sporadically on the coldest winter nights. That\'s the point. One night the four homes on a common transformer may not charge at all. Another night they may all four be charging eight cars. This may not happen often, but the system has to be able to supply those extra kW compared to the loads they used to supply. In some neighborhoods this will require upgrades of the local distribution. Otherwise no other part of the grid will be remotely stressed.

You are assuming that there is no demand-side management - yes ideally the supply would be able to the worst case. But provided that the cars are charged by some reasonable time in the morning they don\'t need to all charge at the full rate.

I\'m not assuming anything. There is no supply side management. Anything can be done in a perfect future, but it is a long road with many hurdles to get something agreed on that is effective and takes into account all party\'s interest. This is exactly what I would propose rather than have the electric companies go to the oversight boards and impose a universal fee for expanding the local distribution and I have talked about this here. I just don\'t think it will happen without lots of vocal users. The power companies have a vested interest in adding all manner of capital if it can be done at other\'s expense.

Dominion Power did massive amounts of work to get a license for building nuclear generators in Virginia and got the legislature to allow them to bill the consumers for the half billion it cost. They may or may not ever build the plants. So why did \"we\" get the bill?

Being charged by \"some reasonable time\" doesn\'t cut it. Batteries are most effective when at operating temperature. EV owners charge their cars so they finish and are still warm when they are ready to leave on cold mornings. This is at odds with minimizing overlap of charging and heating.


The hardware is already present in many residential chargers and with some agreement on protocols can be centrally controlled.
Suitable compensation in the form of reduced tariffs can encourage the customer to use the capability and have very little inconvenience.

I do that now, but it isn\'t panning out really. The electricity my car uses is not so much of my total bill. There\'s also the fact that the billing is set for the generating peaks which is not the same as the residential distribution peaks.


The power companies already do it for A/C loads in some parts of the US and do more in other countries. Our local company PG&E just adds a small controller into the heating controller in return for a lower rate.

Yeah, that can\'t really work for heating. Every heating unit cycles on and off independently so are already scattered across time. The only thing they can do that would be effective is to cut back on your overall heating energy usage during the cold spells which means your home is not warm. They tried that in Maryland and then gave it up. I\'m sure the consumers paid the bill for that too, just not up front. They have a special \"fee\" in Maryland for those sorts of programs. I got freebies a couple of times from them.

Oh, the cars can certainly be made to feed AC back into the line, but it\'s not so simple as putting boards in the cars. There are numerous safety issues involved in addition to various regulatory issues. Try connecting a solar generation capability that isn\'t 100% hard wired. It won\'t be appnotroved for you to throw the switch. not

Bottom line is once EV owners realize how expensive batteries are to replace they will never consider burning them up with this sort of plan.

--

Rick C.

---- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
---- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
One idea _I have not seen discussed is putting some solar cells on the car roofs. That could either extend the range of the car or reduce the amount of batteries needed.

Dan
 
B

Bill Sloman

Guest
On Saturday, September 26, 2020 at 10:38:38 PM UTC+10, dcaster@krl.org wrote:
On Tuesday, September 15, 2020 at 9:24:03 PM UTC-4, Ricketty C wrote:
On Tuesday, September 15, 2020 at 6:04:55 PM UTC-4, ke...@kjwdesigns.com wrote:
On Monday, 14 September 2020 at 23:44:12 UTC-7, Ricketty C wrote:
<snip>

> > Oh, the cars can certainly be made to feed AC back into the line, but it\'s not so simple as putting boards in the cars.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vehicle-to-grid

> > There are numerous safety issues involved in addition to various regulatory issues. Try connecting a solar generation capability that isn\'t 100% hard wired. It won\'t be approved for you to throw the switch. not

Obviously. But this is something that would help the grid, and they\'d pay the car owner for the service.

> > Bottom line is once EV owners realize how expensive batteries are to replace they will never consider burning them up with this sort of plan.

Until they realise how much the grid is likely to pay for the use of the battery in this way.

> One idea _I have not seen discussed is putting some solar cells on the car roofs. That could either extend the range of the car or reduce the amount of batteries needed.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Solar_Challenge

It goes back to 1987. Dutch teams have won it quite frequently so we heard about it from time to time when we lived in the Netherlands. It\'s a totally impractical form of transport, but an exceptionally good educational opportunity.

Airplane wings offer more surface area.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_Impulse

There seem to have been a lot of discussions that went on when Dan wasn\'t paying attention.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney
 
D

dcaster@krl.org

Guest
On Saturday, September 26, 2020 at 9:24:18 AM UTC-4, Bill Sloman wrote:
On Saturday, September 26, 2020 at 10:38:38 PM UTC+10, dcaster@krl.org wrote:
On Tuesday, September 15, 2020 at 9:24:03 PM UTC-4, Ricketty C wrote:
On Tuesday, September 15, 2020 at 6:04:55 PM UTC-4, ke...@kjwdesigns.com wrote:
On Monday, 14 September 2020 at 23:44:12 UTC-7, Ricketty C wrote:

snip

Oh, the cars can certainly be made to feed AC back into the line, but it\'s not so simple as putting boards in the cars.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vehicle-to-grid

There are numerous safety issues involved in addition to various regulatory issues. Try connecting a solar generation capability that isn\'t 100% hard wired. It won\'t be approved for you to throw the switch. not

Obviously. But this is something that would help the grid, and they\'d pay the car owner for the service.

Bottom line is once EV owners realize how expensive batteries are to replace they will never consider burning them up with this sort of plan.

Until they realise how much the grid is likely to pay for the use of the battery in this way.

One idea _I have not seen discussed is putting some solar cells on the car roofs. That could either extend the range of the car or reduce the amount of batteries needed.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Solar_Challenge

It goes back to 1987. Dutch teams have won it quite frequently so we heard about it from time to time when we lived in the Netherlands. It\'s a totally impractical form of transport, but an exceptionally good educational opportunity.

Airplane wings offer more surface area.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_Impulse

There seem to have been a lot of discussions that went on when Dan wasn\'t paying attention.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney
I forgot that every thing has to be spelled out for Bill. I assume the rest of the readers of this newsgroup were able to understand what I was suggesting.

Dan
 
F

Flyguy

Guest
On Thursday, September 24, 2020 at 7:24:40 PM UTC-7, Bill Sloman wrote:
On Friday, September 25, 2020 at 8:31:37 AM UTC+10, Flyguy wrote:
On Tuesday, September 15, 2020 at 9:21:02 PM UTC-7, Bill Sloman wrote:
On Wednesday, September 16, 2020 at 11:24:03 AM UTC+10, Ricketty C wrote:
On Tuesday, September 15, 2020 at 6:04:55 PM UTC-4, ke...@kjwdesigns.com wrote:
On Monday, 14 September 2020 at 23:44:12 UTC-7, Ricketty C wrote:

snip

Bottom line is once EV owners realize how expensive batteries are to replace they will never consider burning them up with this sort of plan.

Bottom line is that once the power system decides that it is sensible to use the batteries in parked electric cars for grid storage, the batteries will become much cheaper to replace - the car manufacturers may want to price them as single-sourced spare parts, but they won\'t be able to get away with it.

Do that and you will just wear out your expensive battery pack quicker and the EV manufacturers will revoke your 100,000-mile warranty.

The deal is that you get paid for the wear on the battery pack. There are all sort of thing that the electric vehicle manufacturers might try to do to rip off their customers, but if society as a whole sees the sense in using the batteries in parked electric cars for grid storage - once most cars are electric the parked cars could deliver something like four or five times the peak output from the grid for some hours - the electric vehicle manufacturers aren\'t going to have that option.

We know you are too stupid to work out how this would work, so don\'t bother telling us that this doesn\'t make sense to you. Few things do.

--
SL0W MAN, Sydney
Hey SL0W MAN,

There you go AGAIN - repeating the insult \"stupid\" (at least you spelled it right this time!), a sure sign of a TROLL.

Who the hell is going to \"pay\" for it? You socialists just don\'t understand that the only one who can pay is the CONSUMER, one way or another. The bottom line is that battery storage of energy is VERY EXPENSIVE - nat gas is MUCH CHEAPER.
 
F

Flyguy

Guest
On Saturday, September 26, 2020 at 9:43:31 AM UTC-7, dca...@krl.org wrote:
On Saturday, September 26, 2020 at 9:24:18 AM UTC-4, Bill Sloman wrote:
On Saturday, September 26, 2020 at 10:38:38 PM UTC+10, dcaster@krl.org wrote:
On Tuesday, September 15, 2020 at 9:24:03 PM UTC-4, Ricketty C wrote:
On Tuesday, September 15, 2020 at 6:04:55 PM UTC-4, ke...@kjwdesigns.com wrote:
On Monday, 14 September 2020 at 23:44:12 UTC-7, Ricketty C wrote:

snip

Oh, the cars can certainly be made to feed AC back into the line, but it\'s not so simple as putting boards in the cars.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vehicle-to-grid

There are numerous safety issues involved in addition to various regulatory issues. Try connecting a solar generation capability that isn\'t 100% hard wired. It won\'t be approved for you to throw the switch. not

Obviously. But this is something that would help the grid, and they\'d pay the car owner for the service.

Bottom line is once EV owners realize how expensive batteries are to replace they will never consider burning them up with this sort of plan.

Until they realise how much the grid is likely to pay for the use of the battery in this way.

One idea _I have not seen discussed is putting some solar cells on the car roofs. That could either extend the range of the car or reduce the amount of batteries needed.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Solar_Challenge

It goes back to 1987. Dutch teams have won it quite frequently so we heard about it from time to time when we lived in the Netherlands. It\'s a totally impractical form of transport, but an exceptionally good educational opportunity.

Airplane wings offer more surface area.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_Impulse

There seem to have been a lot of discussions that went on when Dan wasn\'t paying attention.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

I forgot that every thing has to be spelled out for Bill. I assume the rest of the readers of this newsgroup were able to understand what I was suggesting.

Dan
Forget about SL0W MAN understanding anything - he already has the solution looking for a problem.

Adding solar panels to a car\'s roof MIGHT produce 0.8 KWh per day (not much if you park in a parking garage or if buildings block the sunlight). That will get you about 2.3 mi for Tesla Model 3 at a cost of around $2,000 to $3,000 because you would have to use flexible modules. And most of the time you would not need it because you can recharge at night.
 
D

dcaster@krl.org

Guest
On Saturday, September 26, 2020 at 2:32:50 PM UTC-4, Flyguy wrote:
On Saturday, September 26, 2020 at 9:43:31 AM UTC-7, dca...@krl.org wrote:
On Saturday, September 26, 2020 at 9:24:18 AM UTC-4, Bill Sloman wrote:
On Saturday, September 26, 2020 at 10:38:38 PM UTC+10, dcaster@krl.org wrote:
On Tuesday, September 15, 2020 at 9:24:03 PM UTC-4, Ricketty C wrote:
On Tuesday, September 15, 2020 at 6:04:55 PM UTC-4, ke...@kjwdesigns.com wrote:
On Monday, 14 September 2020 at 23:44:12 UTC-7, Ricketty C wrote:

snip

Oh, the cars can certainly be made to feed AC back into the line, but it\'s not so simple as putting boards in the cars.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vehicle-to-grid

There are numerous safety issues involved in addition to various regulatory issues. Try connecting a solar generation capability that isn\'t 100% hard wired. It won\'t be approved for you to throw the switch. not

Obviously. But this is something that would help the grid, and they\'d pay the car owner for the service.

Bottom line is once EV owners realize how expensive batteries are to replace they will never consider burning them up with this sort of plan..

Until they realise how much the grid is likely to pay for the use of the battery in this way.

One idea _I have not seen discussed is putting some solar cells on the car roofs. That could either extend the range of the car or reduce the amount of batteries needed.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Solar_Challenge

It goes back to 1987. Dutch teams have won it quite frequently so we heard about it from time to time when we lived in the Netherlands. It\'s a totally impractical form of transport, but an exceptionally good educational opportunity.

Airplane wings offer more surface area.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_Impulse

There seem to have been a lot of discussions that went on when Dan wasn\'t paying attention.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

I forgot that every thing has to be spelled out for Bill. I assume the rest of the readers of this newsgroup were able to understand what I was suggesting.

Dan

Forget about SL0W MAN understanding anything - he already has the solution looking for a problem.

Adding solar panels to a car\'s roof MIGHT produce 0.8 KWh per day (not much if you park in a parking garage or if buildings block the sunlight). That will get you about 2.3 mi for Tesla Model 3 at a cost of around $2,000 to $3,000 because you would have to use flexible modules. And most of the time you would not need it because you can recharge at night.
Hmm.
I was thinking a lot more power. Say 2 kw peak power and parked at work for 8.5 hours. So maybe 8 kwh. or 10 times your estimate. So maybe a $600 a year Not really worth while at this time. Maybe reasonable ten years from now.

Why do you say it would have to be flexible panels?

Dan
 
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