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pretty OT: boats...

K

ke...@kjwdesigns.com

Guest
On Monday, 14 September 2020 at 23:44:12 UTC-7, Ricketty C wrote:
....
Trickle charging a car battery over six to eight hours isn\'t going to be a problem. The power grid has dealt with people building more houses, and putting in electric powered devices - most recently air conditioners - for it\'s whole existence. They will be able to cope.
\"Trickle\" charging won\'t accomplish much in 6 hours. Charging an EV at a useful rate takes as much CONTINUOUS power as the heat coils in my furnace which only runs sporadically on the coldest winter nights. That\'s the point.. One night the four homes on a common transformer may not charge at all. Another night they may all four be charging eight cars. This may not happen often, but the system has to be able to supply those extra kW compared to the loads they used to supply. In some neighborhoods this will require upgrades of the local distribution. Otherwise no other part of the grid will be remotely stressed.
You are assuming that there is no demand-side management - yes ideally the supply would be able to the worst case. But provided that the cars are charged by some reasonable time in the morning they don\'t need to all charge at the full rate.

The hardware is already present in many residential chargers and with some agreement on protocols can be centrally controlled.
Suitable compensation in the form of reduced tariffs can encourage the customer to use the capability and have very little inconvenience.

The power companies already do it for A/C loads in some parts of the US and do more in other countries. Our local company PG&E just adds a small controller into the heating controller in return for a lower rate.

kw
 
R

Ricketty C

Guest
On Tuesday, September 15, 2020 at 6:04:55 PM UTC-4, ke...@kjwdesigns.com wrote:
On Monday, 14 September 2020 at 23:44:12 UTC-7, Ricketty C wrote:
...
Trickle charging a car battery over six to eight hours isn\'t going to be a problem. The power grid has dealt with people building more houses, and putting in electric powered devices - most recently air conditioners - for it\'s whole existence. They will be able to cope.
\"Trickle\" charging won\'t accomplish much in 6 hours. Charging an EV at a useful rate takes as much CONTINUOUS power as the heat coils in my furnace which only runs sporadically on the coldest winter nights. That\'s the point. One night the four homes on a common transformer may not charge at all. Another night they may all four be charging eight cars. This may not happen often, but the system has to be able to supply those extra kW compared to the loads they used to supply. In some neighborhoods this will require upgrades of the local distribution. Otherwise no other part of the grid will be remotely stressed.

You are assuming that there is no demand-side management - yes ideally the supply would be able to the worst case. But provided that the cars are charged by some reasonable time in the morning they don\'t need to all charge at the full rate.
I\'m not assuming anything. There is no supply side management. Anything can be done in a perfect future, but it is a long road with many hurdles to get something agreed on that is effective and takes into account all party\'s interest. This is exactly what I would propose rather than have the electric companies go to the oversight boards and impose a universal fee for expanding the local distribution and I have talked about this here. I just don\'t think it will happen without lots of vocal users. The power companies have a vested interest in adding all manner of capital if it can be done at other\'s expense.

Dominion Power did massive amounts of work to get a license for building nuclear generators in Virginia and got the legislature to allow them to bill the consumers for the half billion it cost. They may or may not ever build the plants. So why did \"we\" get the bill?

Being charged by \"some reasonable time\" doesn\'t cut it. Batteries are most effective when at operating temperature. EV owners charge their cars so they finish and are still warm when they are ready to leave on cold mornings.. This is at odds with minimizing overlap of charging and heating.


The hardware is already present in many residential chargers and with some agreement on protocols can be centrally controlled.
Suitable compensation in the form of reduced tariffs can encourage the customer to use the capability and have very little inconvenience.
I do that now, but it isn\'t panning out really. The electricity my car uses is not so much of my total bill. There\'s also the fact that the billing is set for the generating peaks which is not the same as the residential distribution peaks.


> The power companies already do it for A/C loads in some parts of the US and do more in other countries. Our local company PG&E just adds a small controller into the heating controller in return for a lower rate.

Yeah, that can\'t really work for heating. Every heating unit cycles on and off independently so are already scattered across time. The only thing they can do that would be effective is to cut back on your overall heating energy usage during the cold spells which means your home is not warm. They tried that in Maryland and then gave it up. I\'m sure the consumers paid the bill for that too, just not up front. They have a special \"fee\" in Maryland for those sorts of programs. I got freebies a couple of times from them.

Oh, the cars can certainly be made to feed AC back into the line, but it\'s not so simple as putting boards in the cars. There are numerous safety issues involved in addition to various regulatory issues. Try connecting a solar generation capability that isn\'t 100% hard wired. It won\'t be approved for you to throw the switch.

Bottom line is once EV owners realize how expensive batteries are to replace they will never consider burning them up with this sort of plan.

--

Rick C.

---- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
---- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
 
F

Flyguy

Guest
On Sunday, September 13, 2020 at 11:23:29 AM UTC-7, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Sun, 13 Sep 2020 12:38:33 -0400, Phil Hobbs
pcdhSpamM...@electrooptical.net> wrote:

On 2020-09-12 22:20, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Fri, 11 Sep 2020 18:53:34 -0700 (PDT), George Herold
gghe...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Friday, September 11, 2020 at 7:35:14 PM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:
On Fri, 11 Sep 2020 16:27:18 -0700 (PDT), George Herold
gghe...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Friday, September 11, 2020 at 12:27:00 PM UTC-4, dagmarg...@yahoo.com wrote:
On Thursday, September 10, 2020 at 1:59:25 PM UTC-4, Phil Hobbs wrote:
On 2020-09-10 11:21, George Herold wrote:
On Wednesday, September 9, 2020 at 1:59:46 PM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:
Up here in the country, I see a lot of motor boats parked in
driveways. I suspect that most are seldom or never used.

I got curious about cost. Seems like a dinky outboard motor costs
$1000, and some are $8K or $25K or even $45K. And a serious speed
freak will hang three on the stern.

I can envision some domestic discord.
My brother bought a used 15\' motor boat for ~$2.5k
Used for fishing andd beer drinking with the boys.
(no girls allowed. :^)

Yeah, with a fibreglass boat you can keep it looking nice for decades.
My Hobie 16 was 20 years old when I bought it for $1200 and 29 when I
sold it on eBay for $1k. (I did buy a swoopy new trailer for $750 and a
new trampoline for $150, so my TCO was about $120 per year not counting
boatyard space.)

I\'m from a family of planing dinghy sailors, but I once cartwheeled a
Hobie-16 in the Gulf of Mexico. :)

We were screaming along on in a lively breeze, heeled dangerously hard,
155# sea salt me in trapeze and 200# noob owner on the trampoline astern at
the helm. I \'bout lost my vocal chords \'requesting\' he slack off the
main or luff up a bit, when a wee bitty puff heeled us a mite harder, we buried
the lee bow, the boat stopped instantaneously, and the wire catapulted
me skyward...jolly good fun!

It looked a bit like this:
https://southern-born-and-bred.blogspot.com/2011/06/wipeout-crew-sent-flying-as-new.html
Yikes, fun as long as you don\'t get banged by the boom.
The only ~sunfish* mishap I recall vividly is when we planted
the front half in a wave... boat on a broad reach. For a moment
I thought the boat was going to pop up backwards, but after coming
to a dead stop it mangled to shrug off the wave and continue on.
(slightly different tack afterwards :^)

George H.


*it was a bit bigger than a sunfish and no cockpit.

Righting the beast in the blow and chop was a bear and we had to do it
over and over, as we\'d no sooner get righted than knocked down again
(it took the skipper several tries to grok pointing into the weather
long enough for us to re-board).

(Also, there was that first delay during the time I needed to stop laughing
hysterically, then convince the first-outing skipper that we weren\'t actually
going to die.)

In the end we got the boat up and had a great deal more fun that day before
sailing in, sunburned and smiling.

Good times!

Cheers,
James Arthur

In Lake Pontchartrain, if you flip a sunfish mid-lake, you can stick
the mast in the bottom. Makes it hard to flip it back over. Then you
have to clean the mud out of the rigging.

As they say, the lake is bottomless; it just gets thicker as you go
down.

And as they say, it\'s a good place to be from.
Grin, Well \'round here if you can swim down and touch the plants
or mud on the bottom we call it a pond, or wet lands if it drys
out in the summer. :^)

Did the shallow bottom lead to big waves?

No, Lake P was pretty placid, a huge 12-foot-deep saucer. The real
danger was a thunderstorm sneaking up on drunken sailors. Guy I know
killed a girl when a storm snuck up while they were swimming. His
anchor line was too short, it pulled out, and the boat took off and
left the swimmers behind.



Yikes, they left the sails up?

Cheers

Phil Hobbs
Knowing Bill, probably so. He managed to catch onto the anchor line
and eventually pulled himself into the boat, got control, and motored
back. Too late for one girl.

We used to sit on the lake levee and watch thunderstorms sweep in, a
vertical wall of water and lightning. Then sit in the refreshing warm
rain. I miss thunderstorms; we don\'t get them here. But the skiing is
better, and a blizzard can be interesting too.

SF is cold and very foggy today. It doesn\'t smell smokey. Maybe a
little smoke makes nucleation centers for the fog.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ehra0oalj1jmgv1/Fog_9_13_2020.JPG?raw=1

Real smelly smoke on I80 yesterday:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/8veqz9biaajn4r3/Smoke_Lincoin.jpg?raw=1

It was like that all the way from the mountains to the coast.
Interesting times.

Today\'s New York Times has a bunch of stuff about the west coast fires
and forest (mis)management. People are beginning to admit some things.
--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

Science teaches us to doubt.

Claude Bernard
What the fuck does this have to do with Electronics, John?
 
P

Phil Hobbs

Guest
On 2020-09-15 22:33, Flyguy wrote:
On Sunday, September 13, 2020 at 11:23:29 AM UTC-7, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Sun, 13 Sep 2020 12:38:33 -0400, Phil Hobbs
pcdhSpamM...@electrooptical.net> wrote:

On 2020-09-12 22:20, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Fri, 11 Sep 2020 18:53:34 -0700 (PDT), George Herold
gghe...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Friday, September 11, 2020 at 7:35:14 PM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:
On Fri, 11 Sep 2020 16:27:18 -0700 (PDT), George Herold
gghe...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Friday, September 11, 2020 at 12:27:00 PM UTC-4, dagmarg...@yahoo.com wrote:
On Thursday, September 10, 2020 at 1:59:25 PM UTC-4, Phil Hobbs wrote:
On 2020-09-10 11:21, George Herold wrote:
On Wednesday, September 9, 2020 at 1:59:46 PM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:
Up here in the country, I see a lot of motor boats parked in
driveways. I suspect that most are seldom or never used.

I got curious about cost. Seems like a dinky outboard motor costs
$1000, and some are $8K or $25K or even $45K. And a serious speed
freak will hang three on the stern.

I can envision some domestic discord.
My brother bought a used 15\' motor boat for ~$2.5k
Used for fishing andd beer drinking with the boys.
(no girls allowed. :^)

Yeah, with a fibreglass boat you can keep it looking nice for decades.
My Hobie 16 was 20 years old when I bought it for $1200 and 29 when I
sold it on eBay for $1k. (I did buy a swoopy new trailer for $750 and a
new trampoline for $150, so my TCO was about $120 per year not counting
boatyard space.)

I\'m from a family of planing dinghy sailors, but I once cartwheeled a
Hobie-16 in the Gulf of Mexico. :)

We were screaming along on in a lively breeze, heeled dangerously hard,
155# sea salt me in trapeze and 200# noob owner on the trampoline astern at
the helm. I \'bout lost my vocal chords \'requesting\' he slack off the
main or luff up a bit, when a wee bitty puff heeled us a mite harder, we buried
the lee bow, the boat stopped instantaneously, and the wire catapulted
me skyward...jolly good fun!

It looked a bit like this:
https://southern-born-and-bred.blogspot.com/2011/06/wipeout-crew-sent-flying-as-new.html
Yikes, fun as long as you don\'t get banged by the boom.
The only ~sunfish* mishap I recall vividly is when we planted
the front half in a wave... boat on a broad reach. For a moment
I thought the boat was going to pop up backwards, but after coming
to a dead stop it mangled to shrug off the wave and continue on.
(slightly different tack afterwards :^)

George H.


*it was a bit bigger than a sunfish and no cockpit.

Righting the beast in the blow and chop was a bear and we had to do it
over and over, as we\'d no sooner get righted than knocked down again
(it took the skipper several tries to grok pointing into the weather
long enough for us to re-board).

(Also, there was that first delay during the time I needed to stop laughing
hysterically, then convince the first-outing skipper that we weren\'t actually
going to die.)

In the end we got the boat up and had a great deal more fun that day before
sailing in, sunburned and smiling.

Good times!

Cheers,
James Arthur

In Lake Pontchartrain, if you flip a sunfish mid-lake, you can stick
the mast in the bottom. Makes it hard to flip it back over. Then you
have to clean the mud out of the rigging.

As they say, the lake is bottomless; it just gets thicker as you go
down.

And as they say, it\'s a good place to be from.
Grin, Well \'round here if you can swim down and touch the plants
or mud on the bottom we call it a pond, or wet lands if it drys
out in the summer. :^)

Did the shallow bottom lead to big waves?

No, Lake P was pretty placid, a huge 12-foot-deep saucer. The real
danger was a thunderstorm sneaking up on drunken sailors. Guy I know
killed a girl when a storm snuck up while they were swimming. His
anchor line was too short, it pulled out, and the boat took off and
left the swimmers behind.



Yikes, they left the sails up?

Cheers

Phil Hobbs
Knowing Bill, probably so. He managed to catch onto the anchor line
and eventually pulled himself into the boat, got control, and motored
back. Too late for one girl.

We used to sit on the lake levee and watch thunderstorms sweep in, a
vertical wall of water and lightning. Then sit in the refreshing warm
rain. I miss thunderstorms; we don\'t get them here. But the skiing is
better, and a blizzard can be interesting too.

SF is cold and very foggy today. It doesn\'t smell smokey. Maybe a
little smoke makes nucleation centers for the fog.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ehra0oalj1jmgv1/Fog_9_13_2020.JPG?raw=1

Real smelly smoke on I80 yesterday:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/8veqz9biaajn4r3/Smoke_Lincoin.jpg?raw=1

It was like that all the way from the mountains to the coast.
Interesting times.

Today\'s New York Times has a bunch of stuff about the west coast fires
and forest (mis)management. People are beginning to admit some things.
--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

Science teaches us to doubt.

Claude Bernard

What the fuck does this have to do with Electronics, John?
That\'s how we pay for the boats, silly. ;)

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

http://electrooptical.net
http://hobbs-eo.com
 
B

Bill Sloman

Guest
On Wednesday, September 16, 2020 at 11:24:03 AM UTC+10, Ricketty C wrote:
On Tuesday, September 15, 2020 at 6:04:55 PM UTC-4, ke...@kjwdesigns.com wrote:
On Monday, 14 September 2020 at 23:44:12 UTC-7, Ricketty C wrote:
<snip>

> Bottom line is once EV owners realize how expensive batteries are to replace they will never consider burning them up with this sort of plan.

Bottom line is that once the power system decides that it is sensible to use the batteries in parked electric cars for grid storage, the batteries will become much cheaper to replace - the car manufacturers may want to price them as single-sourced spare parts, but they won\'t be able to get away with it.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney
 
J

John Larkin

Guest
On Tue, 15 Sep 2020 19:33:27 -0700 (PDT), Flyguy
<soar2morrow@yahoo.com> wrote:

On Sunday, September 13, 2020 at 11:23:29 AM UTC-7, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Sun, 13 Sep 2020 12:38:33 -0400, Phil Hobbs
pcdhSpamM...@electrooptical.net> wrote:

On 2020-09-12 22:20, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Fri, 11 Sep 2020 18:53:34 -0700 (PDT), George Herold
gghe...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Friday, September 11, 2020 at 7:35:14 PM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:
On Fri, 11 Sep 2020 16:27:18 -0700 (PDT), George Herold
gghe...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Friday, September 11, 2020 at 12:27:00 PM UTC-4, dagmarg...@yahoo.com wrote:
On Thursday, September 10, 2020 at 1:59:25 PM UTC-4, Phil Hobbs wrote:
On 2020-09-10 11:21, George Herold wrote:
On Wednesday, September 9, 2020 at 1:59:46 PM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:
Up here in the country, I see a lot of motor boats parked in
driveways. I suspect that most are seldom or never used.

I got curious about cost. Seems like a dinky outboard motor costs
$1000, and some are $8K or $25K or even $45K. And a serious speed
freak will hang three on the stern.

I can envision some domestic discord.
My brother bought a used 15\' motor boat for ~$2.5k
Used for fishing andd beer drinking with the boys.
(no girls allowed. :^)

Yeah, with a fibreglass boat you can keep it looking nice for decades.
My Hobie 16 was 20 years old when I bought it for $1200 and 29 when I
sold it on eBay for $1k. (I did buy a swoopy new trailer for $750 and a
new trampoline for $150, so my TCO was about $120 per year not counting
boatyard space.)

I\'m from a family of planing dinghy sailors, but I once cartwheeled a
Hobie-16 in the Gulf of Mexico. :)

We were screaming along on in a lively breeze, heeled dangerously hard,
155# sea salt me in trapeze and 200# noob owner on the trampoline astern at
the helm. I \'bout lost my vocal chords \'requesting\' he slack off the
main or luff up a bit, when a wee bitty puff heeled us a mite harder, we buried
the lee bow, the boat stopped instantaneously, and the wire catapulted
me skyward...jolly good fun!

It looked a bit like this:
https://southern-born-and-bred.blogspot.com/2011/06/wipeout-crew-sent-flying-as-new.html
Yikes, fun as long as you don\'t get banged by the boom.
The only ~sunfish* mishap I recall vividly is when we planted
the front half in a wave... boat on a broad reach. For a moment
I thought the boat was going to pop up backwards, but after coming
to a dead stop it mangled to shrug off the wave and continue on.
(slightly different tack afterwards :^)

George H.


*it was a bit bigger than a sunfish and no cockpit.

Righting the beast in the blow and chop was a bear and we had to do it
over and over, as we\'d no sooner get righted than knocked down again
(it took the skipper several tries to grok pointing into the weather
long enough for us to re-board).

(Also, there was that first delay during the time I needed to stop laughing
hysterically, then convince the first-outing skipper that we weren\'t actually
going to die.)

In the end we got the boat up and had a great deal more fun that day before
sailing in, sunburned and smiling.

Good times!

Cheers,
James Arthur

In Lake Pontchartrain, if you flip a sunfish mid-lake, you can stick
the mast in the bottom. Makes it hard to flip it back over. Then you
have to clean the mud out of the rigging.

As they say, the lake is bottomless; it just gets thicker as you go
down.

And as they say, it\'s a good place to be from.
Grin, Well \'round here if you can swim down and touch the plants
or mud on the bottom we call it a pond, or wet lands if it drys
out in the summer. :^)

Did the shallow bottom lead to big waves?

No, Lake P was pretty placid, a huge 12-foot-deep saucer. The real
danger was a thunderstorm sneaking up on drunken sailors. Guy I know
killed a girl when a storm snuck up while they were swimming. His
anchor line was too short, it pulled out, and the boat took off and
left the swimmers behind.



Yikes, they left the sails up?

Cheers

Phil Hobbs
Knowing Bill, probably so. He managed to catch onto the anchor line
and eventually pulled himself into the boat, got control, and motored
back. Too late for one girl.

We used to sit on the lake levee and watch thunderstorms sweep in, a
vertical wall of water and lightning. Then sit in the refreshing warm
rain. I miss thunderstorms; we don\'t get them here. But the skiing is
better, and a blizzard can be interesting too.

SF is cold and very foggy today. It doesn\'t smell smokey. Maybe a
little smoke makes nucleation centers for the fog.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ehra0oalj1jmgv1/Fog_9_13_2020.JPG?raw=1

Real smelly smoke on I80 yesterday:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/8veqz9biaajn4r3/Smoke_Lincoin.jpg?raw=1

It was like that all the way from the mountains to the coast.
Interesting times.

Today\'s New York Times has a bunch of stuff about the west coast fires
and forest (mis)management. People are beginning to admit some things.
--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

Science teaches us to doubt.

Claude Bernard

What the fuck does this have to do with Electronics, John?
Humble apologies. Let\'s talk about your oscilloscopes, and some
circuits that you have designed.
 
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