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OT: Kitchen appliance weirdness...

A

amdx

Guest
On 8/24/2020 2:44 PM, Don Y wrote:
On 8/24/2020 10:32 AM, amdx wrote:
On 8/23/2020 9:56 PM, Don Y wrote:

Yeah, that\'s the downside to \"cooking ahead\".  It\'s TOO easy to
overindulge! I can eat several steaks or slices of meatloaf at a
time as the effort has already been expended in making them!  Eating
is considerably easier!!

I\'ve limited the pieces I eat to one a day or less.

\"Willpower\"!  :>  I bake a lot (but don\'t eat \"sweets\" -- other than ice
cream).  So, I am often baking for friends\'/neighbors\' birthdays,
holidays,
etc.

One of my neighbors (diabetic) rations *4* cookies a day.  Of course, he
probably shouldn\'t be eating ANY, but...

My other half complained that my \"steak servings\" were too large (8 oz?).
So, I started cutting them in half before freezing.  Now find myself
eating two at a time -- so what\'s the logic in that??  :

The meatloaf is REALLY very tastey (even folks who claim to HATE meatloaf
ask for seconds!).  And, coupled with the fact that I tend to \"forget
to eat\",
it\'s easy to find myself unsated by just one slice.

(While cooking them, I have rationalized that the \"ends\" are too
irregular
to freeze -- so, MUST be eaten promptly!  That gives me four slices right
off the bat!  Plus all of the parts that break off as I try to shuttle
slices into their plastic bags...  I\'d estimate I eat 6 or 7 slices
each time I make the things!)

I went on a keto diet back in Feb, and lost about 24 lbs.

Congratulations!  Losing weight is annoying; it\'s one of those assymetric
activities:  losing takes far more time/effort than (re)gaining! Sort of
like stocks -- you can lose it a lot faster than recovering it!

My Blood tests were excellent, doc said keep doing the same.

Doctors have lost much credibility with me.

Mine told me \"exercise 30 minutes a day, three times a week\".
I replied, \"I do 56 minutes at a time\"
-- tiny pause --
\"Yeah, but how often?\"
\"5 days/week\"
\"What do you do?\"
(notice he\'s still trying to find something WRONG with my exercising
at almost TWICE the level he recommended not 15 seconds earlier!!)
\"I walk\"
\"Yeah, but how fast do you walk?\"
(again, still looking to find fault!)
\"4 MPH -- 3.8 miles in 56 minutes (average walking speed is 3MPH)\"
\"So, how far do you walk?\"
\"19 miles/week\"
-- longer pause --
\"Well, it would be nice if you could do *20*!\"

[WTF?  Does he even remember his earlier recommendation??]

Mouth agape, I stared at him until he got embarassed as he mentally
reviewed our conversation.

I didn\'t, it lasted about 9 weeks.  In the 4-1/2 months since I
stopped keto,
I have gained 9 lbs, so I\'m trimming intake and plan on getting back
to my keto low.

Having my other half home so much means we tend to have more
\"together meals\"... which means a significant increase in calories.
Coupled with NOT being keen on walking in 108-115F humid weather,
my weight is starting the journey back upward!  <frown

Good luck!  I found just \"counting calories\" (not literally but,
rather, taking note of how much you\'re eating) and daily weighings
is the best way to maintain -- assuming I have a means of
exercising!  (I\'m not keen on buying a treadmill or other
silly piece of boring equipment)
 When I did keto, I weighed and logged everything I ate, I did blood
measurements of Glucose and ketones at least daily.

It worked well for weight loss.

For me it\'s not easy to get all the vitamins and minerals, so I did take
a supplement. I used \"Cronometer\" to keep track of nutrients.

I also walk, a little over 3 miles, occasionally 4. When I walk 4 miles,
that loop includes a Publix super market where they have the

large scales in the lobby and I weigh myself. I used to walk 5 miles,
but it just took to long. I was going to Planet Fitness but then covid.

I\'m 65 and trying to stay mobile until I\'m in the ground.

                                            Mikek



--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus
 
T

Tabby

Guest
On Monday, 24 August 2020 03:36:51 UTC+1, Don Y wrote:
On 8/22/2020 4:04 PM, Tabby wrote:
On Saturday, 22 August 2020 20:52:19 UTC+1, Don Y wrote:
On 8/22/2020 12:12 PM, John Doe wrote:

No. Do you think your household oven has a \"preset current\" for
the heaating elements? And, that somehow that MAGICALLY results
in a 350 degree oven temperature regardless of how much mass you
have in side?

A typical oven cost a lot more than $60.

Not a cheap toaster oven!

Even a REAL toaster has a temperature control inside. When you set
for \"dark\", the bimetal element (legacy toaster) has to deflect
more to break the current to the heating element and operate the
ejector. When you set it for \"light\", it deflects less. The
deflection is a function of how much \"energy\" (heat) it absorbs.

You could, alternately, drive a toaster based on TIME. But, then
different loads would achieve different final temperatures.

I\'ve made enough use of old clockwork controlled toasters to know that\'s cobblers.

I\'ve never seen a toaster that was driven by TIME!

Those that I\'ve disassembled have a catch that is engaged when the
bread is \"loaded\". This holds the bread in the toaster AND turns
on the power to the heating elements.

The heat from those elements eventually deflects a bimetal bar.
When the bar has deflected enough, it presses on the catch to
release the bread (which are ejected via the spring mechanism).
The released bread removes power to the heating elements.

Eventually, the bimetal bar returns to its \"relaxed\" state.

The position of the bimetal bar plays a role in how a SINGLE slice
of bread is toasted. The top of the toaster has markings telling
you which slot to use in such cases -- so the bread delays the
action of the bimetal bar until the bread has reached the desired
temperature. (Putting the slice in the \"other\" slot would result
in the cycle completing far too quickly to toast the bread!)

This wouldn\'t be necessary in a clockwork control mechanism,
would it?

Similarly, if one tries to restart the cycle immediately after
the bread has been ejected (because the toast is too light),
the mechanism won\'t \"catch\"; the bread won\'t stay \"loaded\"
and the cycle won\'t start because of not being loaded.

So, one learns that if you want to darken the bread \"a little\",
then you either tweek the darkness setting OR manually hold
the \"loading lever\" depressed (to maintain the pressure on the
switch that controls the heating elements).

Again, that shouldn\'t be required if driven by a clockwork
mechanism, right?
Long ago I used to look after a fleet of clockwork controlled toasters. The timer switches the heat off, nothing else. The system was very effective in controlling done-ness, though the user had to learn what time to use & add an extra 15 seconds for the first run when cold.


NT
 
T

Tabby

Guest
On Monday, 24 August 2020 03:40:24 UTC+1, Don Y wrote:
On 8/23/2020 7:36 PM, Don Y wrote:
I\'ve never seen a toaster that was driven by TIME!

Those that I\'ve disassembled have a catch that is engaged when the
bread is \"loaded\". This holds the bread in the toaster AND turns
on the power to the heating elements.

The heat from those elements eventually deflects a bimetal bar.
When the bar has deflected enough, it presses on the catch to
release the bread (which are ejected via the spring mechanism).
The released bread removes power to the heating elements.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s4g8ZiomQXE
too modern for me!
 
T

Tabby

Guest
On Monday, 24 August 2020 03:40:49 UTC+1, whit3rd wrote:
On Saturday, August 22, 2020 at 4:04:52 PM UTC-7, Tabby wrote:
On Saturday, 22 August 2020 20:52:19 UTC+1, Don Y wrote:

Even a REAL toaster has a temperature control inside. When you set
for \"dark\", the bimetal element (legacy toaster) has to deflect
more to break the current to the heating element...

I\'ve made enough use of old clockwork controlled toasters to know that\'s cobblers.

Not sure what \'cobblers\' indicates,
it related to bits you snipped


but a third toaster control system is the
old \'radiant control\' from Sunbeam, that integrates (mechanically) the reflectivity
of the toast. <http://automaticbeyondbelief.org

I\'m thinking the 1940s-era design didn\'t use a computer.
People like to try to be clever & automate done-ness, but my experiences with clockwork toasters make it clear that there is no need for such automation. Far more important to the toast eating experience is to get even done-ness and the ideal rate of heat delivery to get the best outer crunch versus inner wetness ratio. And surprise surprise, modern toasters conentrate on the immaterial and ignore the [relatively] important.


NT
 
L

Lasse Langwadt Christensen

Guest
mandag den 24. august 2020 kl. 23.14.36 UTC+2 skrev Tabby:
On Monday, 24 August 2020 03:40:49 UTC+1, whit3rd wrote:
On Saturday, August 22, 2020 at 4:04:52 PM UTC-7, Tabby wrote:
On Saturday, 22 August 2020 20:52:19 UTC+1, Don Y wrote:

Even a REAL toaster has a temperature control inside. When you set
for \"dark\", the bimetal element (legacy toaster) has to deflect
more to break the current to the heating element...

I\'ve made enough use of old clockwork controlled toasters to know that\'s cobblers.

Not sure what \'cobblers\' indicates,

it related to bits you snipped


but a third toaster control system is the
old \'radiant control\' from Sunbeam, that integrates (mechanically) the reflectivity
of the toast. <http://automaticbeyondbelief.org

I\'m thinking the 1940s-era design didn\'t use a computer.

People like to try to be clever & automate done-ness, but my experiences with clockwork toasters make it clear that there is no need for such automation. Far more important to the toast eating experience is to get even done-ness and the ideal rate of heat delivery to get the best outer crunch versus inner wetness ratio. And surprise surprise, modern toasters conentrate on the immaterial and ignore the [relatively] important.
https://youtu.be/1OfxlSG6q5Y :)
 
D

Don Y

Guest
On 8/24/2020 2:06 PM, Tabby wrote:
On Monday, 24 August 2020 03:40:24 UTC+1, Don Y wrote:
On 8/23/2020 7:36 PM, Don Y wrote:
I\'ve never seen a toaster that was driven by TIME!

Those that I\'ve disassembled have a catch that is engaged when the
bread is \"loaded\". This holds the bread in the toaster AND turns
on the power to the heating elements.

The heat from those elements eventually deflects a bimetal bar.
When the bar has deflected enough, it presses on the catch to
release the bread (which are ejected via the spring mechanism).
The released bread removes power to the heating elements.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s4g8ZiomQXE

too modern for me!
The design is at least 60 years old.

Before that, I think folks used metal grates over wood fires...
 
L

Lasse Langwadt Christensen

Guest
mandag den 24. august 2020 kl. 23.43.25 UTC+2 skrev Don Y:
On 8/24/2020 2:06 PM, Tabby wrote:
On Monday, 24 August 2020 03:40:24 UTC+1, Don Y wrote:
On 8/23/2020 7:36 PM, Don Y wrote:
I\'ve never seen a toaster that was driven by TIME!

Those that I\'ve disassembled have a catch that is engaged when the
bread is \"loaded\". This holds the bread in the toaster AND turns
on the power to the heating elements.

The heat from those elements eventually deflects a bimetal bar.
When the bar has deflected enough, it presses on the catch to
release the bread (which are ejected via the spring mechanism).
The released bread removes power to the heating elements.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s4g8ZiomQXE

too modern for me!

The design is at least 60 years old.

Before that, I think folks used metal grates over wood fires...
https://youtu.be/tJVzAvGGvR8?t=149
 
D

Don Y

Guest
On 8/24/2020 1:50 PM, amdx wrote:
On 8/24/2020 2:44 PM, Don Y wrote:

Good luck! I found just \"counting calories\" (not literally but,
rather, taking note of how much you\'re eating) and daily weighings
is the best way to maintain -- assuming I have a means of
exercising! (I\'m not keen on buying a treadmill or other
silly piece of boring equipment)

When I did keto, I weighed and logged everything I ate, I did blood
measurements of Glucose and ketones at least daily.
Yikes! That\'s a fair bit of effort!

OTOH, if it keeps you \"aware\" of your goal, it probably helps.

It worked well for weight loss.

For me it\'s not easy to get all the vitamins and minerals, so I did take a
supplement. I used \"Cronometer\" to keep track of nutrients.
Yeah, I tend to NOT eat \"balanced meals\". I may have steak (JUST steak!)
today, and vegetables (JUST vegetables!), tomorrow -- instead of having
a little of both on each day. As I said, I tend to forget to eat so
have to settle for whatever I happen to eat at any given time. <frown>

I also walk, a little over 3 miles, occasionally 4. When I walk 4 miles, that
loop includes a Publix super market where they have the
large scales in the lobby and I weigh myself. I used to walk 5 miles, but it
just took to long. I was going to Planet Fitness but then covid.
Walking, for me, has always been \"around the neighborhood\". I travel
up and down each (and every) street to put the most mileage on without
ever being more than ~1/2 mile from home.

Rain doesn\'t bother me (as it is infrequent). But, the intense heat
and accompanying humidity just leaves me drenched as soon as I leave the
house.

There\'s a local park just up the road. They have an outdoor track
(which is no better than walking around the neighborhood) AND a
shorted INDOOR track (~0.11 mile). But, the idea of DRIVING the
mile and a half to get there -- and another mile and a half to
return -- just to WALK a few miles seems ridiculous (why not just
*walk* there and back? Oh, wait! Heat and humidity! D\'uh...)

Normally (Fall, Winter, Spring, Summer), I can timeshift my walk
to a time when the Sun isn\'t out -- but there\'s still enough
visibility to avoid the various critters that you likely
encounter (javelina, coyote, snakes, mountain lion and the
occasional bear). But, now, it\'s still 90F at MIDNIGHT and
the humidity doesn\'t wane with the setting of the Sun!

> I\'m 65 and trying to stay mobile until I\'m in the ground.

More power to you! Apparently a big factor in maintaining
health and independence.

Either THAT, or an 18 year old vixen to keep you active! ;-)
 
P

Pimpom

Guest
On 8/25/2020 2:44 AM, Tabby wrote:
On Monday, 24 August 2020 03:40:49 UTC+1, whit3rd wrote:
On Saturday, August 22, 2020 at 4:04:52 PM UTC-7, Tabby wrote:
On Saturday, 22 August 2020 20:52:19 UTC+1, Don Y wrote:

Even a REAL toaster has a temperature control inside. When you set
for \"dark\", the bimetal element (legacy toaster) has to deflect
more to break the current to the heating element...

I\'ve made enough use of old clockwork controlled toasters to know that\'s cobblers.

Not sure what \'cobblers\' indicates,

it related to bits you snipped


but a third toaster control system is the
old \'radiant control\' from Sunbeam, that integrates (mechanically) the reflectivity
of the toast. <http://automaticbeyondbelief.org

I\'m thinking the 1940s-era design didn\'t use a computer.

People like to try to be clever & automate done-ness, but my experiences with clockwork toasters make it clear that there is no need for such automation. Far more important to the toast eating experience is to get even done-ness and the ideal rate of heat delivery to get the best outer crunch versus inner wetness ratio. And surprise surprise, modern toasters conentrate on the immaterial and ignore the [relatively] important.
By clockwork I assume you mean a mechanical timer. The problem
with that is that the \"done-ness\" depends on the mains voltage
which is not well regulated in some parts of the world.

I\'ve traced the circuits of two toasters, both of which use timer
ICs - digital clockworks - without any feedback. The mains
voltage in my house varies from 200V to >240V and it\'s much worse
in some parts of the town. This means that, for a given setting,
the result can be anywhere from underdone to burnt.
 
J

John Doe

Guest
Pimpom <nobody@nowhere.com> wrote:

Tabby wrote:

People like to try to be clever & automate done-ness, but my
experiences with clockwork toasters make it clear that there is
no need for such automation. Far more important to the toast
eating experience is to get even done-ness and the ideal rate of
heat delivery to get the best outer crunch versus inner wetness
ratio. And surprise surprise, modern toasters conentrate on the
immaterial and ignore the [relatively] important.

By clockwork I assume you mean a mechanical timer. The problem
with that is that the \"done-ness\" depends on the mains voltage
which is not well regulated in some parts of the world.
That can be the fault of the house wiring. Lousy wiring can lead to
large drops in voltage. Our house wiring used to sag a lot, but after
the house was rewired, my line conditioner voltage monitor (Tripp Lite
LC1200) has always been in the green.

As posted sometime before...
The idea a device that indicates temperature in its settings must
monitor temperature is silly. Especially when wattage is also a setting.
Obviously a set (high) temperature won\'t be the actual cooking
temperature when wattage is limited. So blows that theory.
 
P

Pimpom

Guest
On 8/25/2020 12:10 PM, John Doe wrote:
Pimpom <nobody@nowhere.com> wrote:

Tabby wrote:

People like to try to be clever & automate done-ness, but my
experiences with clockwork toasters make it clear that there is
no need for such automation. Far more important to the toast
eating experience is to get even done-ness and the ideal rate of
heat delivery to get the best outer crunch versus inner wetness
ratio. And surprise surprise, modern toasters conentrate on the
immaterial and ignore the [relatively] important.

By clockwork I assume you mean a mechanical timer. The problem
with that is that the \"done-ness\" depends on the mains voltage
which is not well regulated in some parts of the world.

That can be the fault of the house wiring. Lousy wiring can lead to
large drops in voltage. Our house wiring used to sag a lot, but after
the house was rewired, my line conditioner voltage monitor (Tripp Lite
LC1200) has always been in the green.
It *can* be the fault of the house wiring but not necessarily so.
The voltage at the entry point to a house can, and often does,
fluctuate in many parts of the world.
 
D

Don Y

Guest
On 8/25/2020 12:18 AM, Pimpom wrote:
On 8/25/2020 12:10 PM, John Doe wrote:
Pimpom <nobody@nowhere.com> wrote:

Tabby wrote:

People like to try to be clever & automate done-ness, but my
experiences with clockwork toasters make it clear that there is
no need for such automation. Far more important to the toast
eating experience is to get even done-ness and the ideal rate of
heat delivery to get the best outer crunch versus inner wetness
ratio. And surprise surprise, modern toasters conentrate on the
immaterial and ignore the [relatively] important.

By clockwork I assume you mean a mechanical timer. The problem
with that is that the \"done-ness\" depends on the mains voltage
which is not well regulated in some parts of the world.

That can be the fault of the house wiring. Lousy wiring can lead to
large drops in voltage. Our house wiring used to sag a lot, but after
the house was rewired, my line conditioner voltage monitor (Tripp Lite
LC1200) has always been in the green.

It *can* be the fault of the house wiring but not necessarily so. The voltage
at the entry point to a house can, and often does, fluctuate in many parts of
the world.
Even in the US, the nominal 120V mains can vary +-5% (114V-126V) -- so,
you could have a +-10% variation of power from a resistive heating element.
Over the short term, the variation (110V-127V) can result in as much as a
+12,-15% power variation.

(I believe europe has a +-10% tolerance?)

Despite these \"goals\", I note my line monitor often sees period when the mains
voltage drops to 105VAC -- for very short periods of time. Note that this is
NOT coincident with sudden increases in my load (e.g., ACbrrr kicking in).

[I also note instances of \"missing\" cycles or \"distorted waveforms\" likely
related to supply side switching.]

Designing products for places like Brazil is... far more challenging! :<
 
P

Pimpom

Guest
On 8/25/2020 1:09 PM, Don Y wrote:
On 8/25/2020 12:18 AM, Pimpom wrote:
On 8/25/2020 12:10 PM, John Doe wrote:
Pimpom <nobody@nowhere.com> wrote:

Tabby wrote:

People like to try to be clever & automate done-ness, but my
experiences with clockwork toasters make it clear that there is
no need for such automation. Far more important to the toast
eating experience is to get even done-ness and the ideal rate of
heat delivery to get the best outer crunch versus inner wetness
ratio. And surprise surprise, modern toasters conentrate on the
immaterial and ignore the [relatively] important.

By clockwork I assume you mean a mechanical timer. The problem
with that is that the \"done-ness\" depends on the mains voltage
which is not well regulated in some parts of the world.

That can be the fault of the house wiring. Lousy wiring can lead to
large drops in voltage. Our house wiring used to sag a lot, but after
the house was rewired, my line conditioner voltage monitor (Tripp Lite
LC1200) has always been in the green.

It *can* be the fault of the house wiring but not necessarily so. The voltage
at the entry point to a house can, and often does, fluctuate in many parts of
the world.

Even in the US, the nominal 120V mains can vary +-5% (114V-126V) -- so,
you could have a +-10% variation of power from a resistive heating element.
Over the short term, the variation (110V-127V) can result in as much as a
+12,-15% power variation.

(I believe europe has a +-10% tolerance?)

Despite these \"goals\", I note my line monitor often sees period when the mains
voltage drops to 105VAC -- for very short periods of time. Note that this is
NOT coincident with sudden increases in my load (e.g., ACbrrr kicking in).

[I also note instances of \"missing\" cycles or \"distorted waveforms\" likely
related to supply side switching.]

Designing products for places like Brazil is... far more challenging! :
It must be. And meeting the challenge is more meaningful than
making a technical argument as if such places don\'t exist.
 
D

Don Y

Guest
On 8/25/2020 1:07 AM, Pimpom wrote:
On 8/25/2020 1:09 PM, Don Y wrote:
On 8/25/2020 12:18 AM, Pimpom wrote:
On 8/25/2020 12:10 PM, John Doe wrote:
Pimpom <nobody@nowhere.com> wrote:

Tabby wrote:

People like to try to be clever & automate done-ness, but my
experiences with clockwork toasters make it clear that there is
no need for such automation. Far more important to the toast
eating experience is to get even done-ness and the ideal rate of
heat delivery to get the best outer crunch versus inner wetness
ratio. And surprise surprise, modern toasters conentrate on the
immaterial and ignore the [relatively] important.

By clockwork I assume you mean a mechanical timer. The problem
with that is that the \"done-ness\" depends on the mains voltage
which is not well regulated in some parts of the world.

That can be the fault of the house wiring. Lousy wiring can lead to
large drops in voltage. Our house wiring used to sag a lot, but after
the house was rewired, my line conditioner voltage monitor (Tripp Lite
LC1200) has always been in the green.

It *can* be the fault of the house wiring but not necessarily so. The voltage
at the entry point to a house can, and often does, fluctuate in many parts of
the world.

Even in the US, the nominal 120V mains can vary +-5% (114V-126V) -- so,
you could have a +-10% variation of power from a resistive heating element.
Over the short term, the variation (110V-127V) can result in as much as a
+12,-15% power variation.

(I believe europe has a +-10% tolerance?)

Despite these \"goals\", I note my line monitor often sees period when the mains
voltage drops to 105VAC -- for very short periods of time. Note that this is
NOT coincident with sudden increases in my load (e.g., ACbrrr kicking in).

[I also note instances of \"missing\" cycles or \"distorted waveforms\" likely
related to supply side switching.]

Designing products for places like Brazil is... far more challenging! :

It must be. And meeting the challenge is more meaningful than making a
technical argument as if such places don\'t exist.
I think many people have limited exposure to different cultures and
societies so they mistakenly assume what\'s \"normal\" or \"expected\" in
*their* world extends to ALL worlds. You have to realize there is an
issue before you can begin to address it.

[Americans are not very cosmopolitan; many are largely ignorant of
the cultural differences in different regions of their OWN country!]

There are folks living within 40 miles of me who don\'t have access to
municipal water, waste management, phone or electricity. And, they
aren\'t \"poor\"; they just live too far \"out\" for those things to be
available to them.

The idea of leaving a computer run overnight -- when you\'re running off
stored charge from the day\'s sunlight -- is extremely wasteful. Use the
computer during daylight hours when there\'s a surplus of power available!
A TV that \"idles\" at 1W uses at least 24WHr, every day. Multiply by
the number of such \"energy saving\" devices you may have leaching power...

Or, taking a 30 minute HOT shower when you\'re having to pump the water
from your own well (the quality of which YOU are responsible for ensuring!)
 
J

John Doe

Guest
But of course current can be regulated.

A silly troll...

--
Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:

Path: eternal-september.org!reader01.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid
Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
Subject: Re: OT: Kitchen appliance weirdness
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2020 00:39:02 -0700
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Xref: reader01.eternal-september.org sci.electronics.design:606470

On 8/25/2020 12:18 AM, Pimpom wrote:
On 8/25/2020 12:10 PM, John Doe wrote:
Pimpom <nobody@nowhere.com> wrote:

Tabby wrote:

People like to try to be clever & automate done-ness, but my
experiences with clockwork toasters make it clear that there is
no need for such automation. Far more important to the toast
eating experience is to get even done-ness and the ideal rate of
heat delivery to get the best outer crunch versus inner wetness
ratio. And surprise surprise, modern toasters conentrate on the
immaterial and ignore the [relatively] important.

By clockwork I assume you mean a mechanical timer. The problem
with that is that the \"done-ness\" depends on the mains voltage
which is not well regulated in some parts of the world.

That can be the fault of the house wiring. Lousy wiring can lead to
large drops in voltage. Our house wiring used to sag a lot, but after
the house was rewired, my line conditioner voltage monitor (Tripp Lite
LC1200) has always been in the green.

It *can* be the fault of the house wiring but not necessarily so. The voltage
at the entry point to a house can, and often does, fluctuate in many parts of
the world.

Even in the US, the nominal 120V mains can vary +-5% (114V-126V) -- so,
you could have a +-10% variation of power from a resistive heating element.
Over the short term, the variation (110V-127V) can result in as much as a
+12,-15% power variation.

(I believe europe has a +-10% tolerance?)

Despite these \"goals\", I note my line monitor often sees period when the mains
voltage drops to 105VAC -- for very short periods of time. Note that this is
NOT coincident with sudden increases in my load (e.g., ACbrrr kicking in).

[I also note instances of \"missing\" cycles or \"distorted waveforms\" likely
related to supply side switching.]

Designing products for places like Brazil is... far more challenging! :
 
J

John Doe

Guest
Pimpom <nobody@nowhere.com> wrote:

It must be. And meeting the challenge is more meaningful than
making a technical argument as if such places don\'t exist.
Current regulation is hardy a challenge.

Neither of your points are meaningful.
 
T

Tabby

Guest
On Monday, 24 August 2020 22:43:25 UTC+1, Don Y wrote:
On 8/24/2020 2:06 PM, Tabby wrote:
On Monday, 24 August 2020 03:40:24 UTC+1, Don Y wrote:
On 8/23/2020 7:36 PM, Don Y wrote:
I\'ve never seen a toaster that was driven by TIME!

Those that I\'ve disassembled have a catch that is engaged when the
bread is \"loaded\". This holds the bread in the toaster AND turns
on the power to the heating elements.

The heat from those elements eventually deflects a bimetal bar.
When the bar has deflected enough, it presses on the catch to
release the bread (which are ejected via the spring mechanism).
The released bread removes power to the heating elements.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s4g8ZiomQXE

too modern for me!

The design is at least 60 years old.
slightly too modern for me

> Before that, I think folks used metal grates over wood fires...

Before that we used manual toasters. Like today\'s but no electromagnet, no popup. Before that were the 1910ish one sided electrocutors. Before that it was the coal fire.


NT
 
T

Tabby

Guest
On Tuesday, 25 August 2020 06:12:29 UTC+1, Pimpom wrote:
On 8/25/2020 2:44 AM, Tabby wrote:
On Monday, 24 August 2020 03:40:49 UTC+1, whit3rd wrote:
On Saturday, August 22, 2020 at 4:04:52 PM UTC-7, Tabby wrote:
On Saturday, 22 August 2020 20:52:19 UTC+1, Don Y wrote:

Even a REAL toaster has a temperature control inside. When you set
for \"dark\", the bimetal element (legacy toaster) has to deflect
more to break the current to the heating element...

I\'ve made enough use of old clockwork controlled toasters to know that\'s cobblers.

Not sure what \'cobblers\' indicates,

it related to bits you snipped


but a third toaster control system is the
old \'radiant control\' from Sunbeam, that integrates (mechanically) the reflectivity
of the toast. <http://automaticbeyondbelief.org

I\'m thinking the 1940s-era design didn\'t use a computer.

People like to try to be clever & automate done-ness, but my experiences with clockwork toasters make it clear that there is no need for such automation. Far more important to the toast eating experience is to get even done-ness and the ideal rate of heat delivery to get the best outer crunch versus inner wetness ratio. And surprise surprise, modern toasters conentrate on the immaterial and ignore the [relatively] important.


By clockwork I assume you mean a mechanical timer. The problem
with that is that the \"done-ness\" depends on the mains voltage
which is not well regulated in some parts of the world.

I\'ve traced the circuits of two toasters, both of which use timer
ICs - digital clockworks - without any feedback. The mains
voltage in my house varies from 200V to >240V and it\'s much worse
in some parts of the town. This means that, for a given setting,
the result can be anywhere from underdone to burnt.
Yeah. IME most people hovered over them waiting to pounce rather than use the timer. The main problem I encountered was that they were prone to melt the 13A plugs.


NT
 
D

Don Y

Guest
On 8/25/2020 12:34 PM, Tabby wrote:
On Tuesday, 25 August 2020 06:12:29 UTC+1, Pimpom wrote:
On 8/25/2020 2:44 AM, Tabby wrote:
On Monday, 24 August 2020 03:40:49 UTC+1, whit3rd wrote:
On Saturday, August 22, 2020 at 4:04:52 PM UTC-7, Tabby wrote:
On Saturday, 22 August 2020 20:52:19 UTC+1, Don Y wrote:

Even a REAL toaster has a temperature control inside. When you
set for \"dark\", the bimetal element (legacy toaster) has to
deflect more to break the current to the heating element...

I\'ve made enough use of old clockwork controlled toasters to know
that\'s cobblers.

Not sure what \'cobblers\' indicates,

it related to bits you snipped

but a third toaster control system is the old \'radiant control\' from
Sunbeam, that integrates (mechanically) the reflectivity of the toast.
http://automaticbeyondbelief.org

I\'m thinking the 1940s-era design didn\'t use a computer.

People like to try to be clever & automate done-ness, but my experiences
with clockwork toasters make it clear that there is no need for such
automation. Far more important to the toast eating experience is to get
even done-ness and the ideal rate of heat delivery to get the best outer
crunch versus inner wetness ratio. And surprise surprise, modern
toasters conentrate on the immaterial and ignore the [relatively]
important.

By clockwork I assume you mean a mechanical timer. The problem with that
is that the \"done-ness\" depends on the mains voltage which is not well
regulated in some parts of the world.

I\'ve traced the circuits of two toasters, both of which use timer ICs -
digital clockworks - without any feedback. The mains voltage in my house
varies from 200V to >240V and it\'s much worse in some parts of the town.
This means that, for a given setting, the result can be anywhere from
underdone to burnt.

Yeah. IME most people hovered over them waiting to pounce rather than use
the timer. The main problem I encountered was that they were prone to melt
the 13A plugs.
That may be yet another difference in our markets. Here, most small
appliances *tend* to max out at around 1000W (that\'s not to say you
can\'t find ones that consume more!). Hair dryers, toasters, microwave
ovens, etc. So, most have little 16AWG power cords as they\'re only
handling ~8A.

Clothes irons often operate in the 1500W (peak) range. This puts them
near the maximum derated capacity of a 15A \"receptacle circuit\".

[Our kitchens are required to have (at least) two GFCI (I think AFCI,
now?) branch circuits to service the countertop area. So, one can
safely run 4 such appliances simultaneously (if you can keep track
of which outlets are on each branch circuit). Bathrooms are
required to have (at least) *one*. Outlet spacing is reduced and
appliance cord lengths are deliberately kept (inconveniently) short!]

And, as power relates to rate of \"heating work\", it\'s clear that a
toaster operating at that power level will take longer to heat
THROUGH a slice of bread than something that \"melts 13A plugs\"
(presumably at 220/240VAC?).

As the mechanism I described effectively uses the bread as a thermal
insulator, a \"slow soak\" gives a different result than \"flash firing\".
 
T

Tabby

Guest
On Tuesday, 25 August 2020 21:00:00 UTC+1, Don Y wrote:
On 8/25/2020 12:34 PM, Tabby wrote:
On Tuesday, 25 August 2020 06:12:29 UTC+1, Pimpom wrote:
On 8/25/2020 2:44 AM, Tabby wrote:
On Monday, 24 August 2020 03:40:49 UTC+1, whit3rd wrote:
On Saturday, August 22, 2020 at 4:04:52 PM UTC-7, Tabby wrote:
On Saturday, 22 August 2020 20:52:19 UTC+1, Don Y wrote:

Even a REAL toaster has a temperature control inside. When you
set for \"dark\", the bimetal element (legacy toaster) has to
deflect more to break the current to the heating element...

I\'ve made enough use of old clockwork controlled toasters to know
that\'s cobblers.

Not sure what \'cobblers\' indicates,

it related to bits you snipped

but a third toaster control system is the old \'radiant control\' from
Sunbeam, that integrates (mechanically) the reflectivity of the toast.
http://automaticbeyondbelief.org

I\'m thinking the 1940s-era design didn\'t use a computer.

People like to try to be clever & automate done-ness, but my experiences
with clockwork toasters make it clear that there is no need for such
automation. Far more important to the toast eating experience is to get
even done-ness and the ideal rate of heat delivery to get the best outer
crunch versus inner wetness ratio. And surprise surprise, modern
toasters conentrate on the immaterial and ignore the [relatively]
important.

By clockwork I assume you mean a mechanical timer. The problem with that
is that the \"done-ness\" depends on the mains voltage which is not well
regulated in some parts of the world.

I\'ve traced the circuits of two toasters, both of which use timer ICs -
digital clockworks - without any feedback. The mains voltage in my house
varies from 200V to >240V and it\'s much worse in some parts of the town.
This means that, for a given setting, the result can be anywhere from
underdone to burnt.

Yeah. IME most people hovered over them waiting to pounce rather than use
the timer. The main problem I encountered was that they were prone to melt
the 13A plugs.

That may be yet another difference in our markets. Here, most small
appliances *tend* to max out at around 1000W (that\'s not to say you
can\'t find ones that consume more!). Hair dryers, toasters, microwave
ovens, etc. So, most have little 16AWG power cords as they\'re only
handling ~8A.

Clothes irons often operate in the 1500W (peak) range. This puts them
near the maximum derated capacity of a 15A \"receptacle circuit\".

[Our kitchens are required to have (at least) two GFCI (I think AFCI,
now?) branch circuits to service the countertop area. So, one can
safely run 4 such appliances simultaneously (if you can keep track
of which outlets are on each branch circuit). Bathrooms are
required to have (at least) *one*. Outlet spacing is reduced and
appliance cord lengths are deliberately kept (inconveniently) short!]

And, as power relates to rate of \"heating work\", it\'s clear that a
toaster operating at that power level will take longer to heat
THROUGH a slice of bread than something that \"melts 13A plugs\"
(presumably at 220/240VAC?).

As the mechanism I described effectively uses the bread as a thermal
insulator, a \"slow soak\" gives a different result than \"flash firing\".
The toasters drew 15A at 240v, being made in the time of round pin 15A plugs. Our plugs today are 13A rated = 3.1kW.

Many smaller houses wired in the 70s often have all the sockets on one single circuit. Yep, all. 2 circuits is most common. They\'re 7kW circuits.


NT
 
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