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Path: eternal-september.org!reader01.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid
Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
Subject: Re: OT: Kitchen appliance weirdness
Date: Sun, 23 Aug 2020 09:19:31 -0700
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On 8/23/2020 8:39 AM, amdx wrote:
On 8/19/2020 8:01 PM, rangerssuck wrote:
On Wednesday, August 19, 2020 at 8:35:19 PM UTC-4, bule...@columbus.rr.com
wrote:
You are over thinking it. The competition has 2 control knobs.....you have 3
reminiscent of \"the battle of the bulbs\" back in the old days of radio when
manufacturers would add tubes with nothing more than their filaments wired so
they\'d light up.
We have more tubes. We must be better.
I think there is something to it. Less watts would limit maximum temperature.
It limits the amount of \"work\" that can be done. So, for certain
thermal loads, it won\'t be able to overcome losses and, thus, limit
the FINAL temperature for *that* load.
Max watts could over heat the food and would over shoot during each cycle,
lower watts could stay on much longer at a lower temp but still maintain desired temp.
Like defrosting a turkey in a \"fast\" oven.
I setup a temporary Sous Vide with a temp controller (STC-1000). I used a
single burner with a large pot of water on top.
When I started, the burner turn on would overshoot my set temperature of 137*F
by about 12*F. I added an 8 ohm resistor in series with the burner and lowered
the over shoot to about 2*F.
You\'re changing the plant to compensate for a mis-tuned controller.
This brings the response closer to critically damped (from underdamped).
I saw a 2 for 1 sale on Bottom round, so I tried Sous Vide on it. I sliced it
in 1\" thick pieces, seasoned it, bagged each piece separately and cooked it for
18 hrs.
Wow! It takes THAT long? Have you played with the temperature setting to
see if you can trade time for quality/taste? E.g., how much faster you
could finish at ~150F and whether or not there would be any differences
in taste/texture?
(I don\'t mind reiterating baking efforts as the whole process is usually
a couple of hours. If I had to wait 18 hours for each turn of the
crank, that would be tedious!)
I froze all the bags, then when I want a quick piece of beef, I quickly thaw
it in hot water and brown it in a pan with some olive oil.
We do that with steaks and meatloaf. We let steaks thaw \"naturally\" (take
it out of freezer in morning, cook it at noon) and don\'t bother thawing
the meatloaf -- a couple of minutes in the microwave, on high, thaws and
reheats (meatloaf was cooked before freezing) so ready to plate!
(I make really GREAT meatloaf!)
It turned out pink and tender. I\'ll do it again.
I\'ll probably buy a real sous vide machine, because they also circulate the water.
What have you found Sous Vide to be POORLY suited to? I don\'t mind spending
a day preparing meals that can be frozen (e.g., I make \"red sauce\" in 16 qt
batches, meatloaf in 10 pound lots, etc) but I\'d be annoyed if the results
weren\'t worth the time expended!
I have got a lot of use from the STC-1000 in several different uses, I really
like it.
https://www.amazon.com/s?k=STC-1000&ref=nb_sb_noss_2
On 8/23/2020 8:39 AM, amdx wrote:
On 8/19/2020 8:01 PM, rangerssuck wrote:
On Wednesday, August 19, 2020 at 8:35:19 PM UTC-4,
bule...@columbus.rr.com wrote:
You are over thinking it. The competition has 2 control
knobs.....you have 3
reminiscent of \"the battle of the bulbs\" back in the old days of
radio when manufacturers would add tubes with nothing more than
their filaments wired so they\'d light up.
We have more tubes. We must be better.
I think there is something to it. Less watts would limit maximum
temperature.
It limits the amount of \"work\" that can be done. So, for certain
thermal loads, it won\'t be able to overcome losses and, thus, limit
the FINAL temperature for *that* load.
Max watts could over heat the food and would over shoot during each
cycle, lower watts could stay on much longer at a lower temp but
still maintain desired temp.
Like defrosting a turkey in a \"fast\" oven.
I setup a temporary Sous Vide with a temp controller (STC-1000). I
used a single burner with a large pot of water on top.
When I started, the burner turn on would overshoot my set temperature
of 137*F
by about 12*F. I added an 8 ohm resistor in series with the burner
and lowered the over shoot to about 2*F.
You\'re changing the plant to compensate for a mis-tuned controller.
This brings the response closer to critically damped (from underdamped).
I saw a 2 for 1 sale on Bottom round, so I tried Sous Vide on it. I
sliced it in 1\" thick pieces, seasoned it, bagged each piece
separately and cooked it for
18 hrs.
Wow! It takes THAT long? Have you played with the temperature
setting to
see if you can trade time for quality/taste? E.g., how much faster you
could finish at ~150F and whether or not there would be any differences
in taste/texture?
(I don\'t mind reiterating baking efforts as the whole process is usually
a couple of hours. If I had to wait 18 hours for each turn of the
crank, that would be tedious!)
I froze all the bags, then when I want a quick piece of beef, I
quickly thaw
it in hot water and brown it in a pan with some olive oil.
We do that with steaks and meatloaf. We let steaks thaw \"naturally\"
(take
it out of freezer in morning, cook it at noon) and don\'t bother thawing
the meatloaf -- a couple of minutes in the microwave, on high, thaws and
reheats (meatloaf was cooked before freezing) so ready to plate!
(I make really GREAT meatloaf!)
It turned out pink and tender. I\'ll do it again. I\'ll probably buy a
real sous vide machine, because they also circulate the water.
What have you found Sous Vide to be POORLY suited to? I don\'t mind
spending
a day preparing meals that can be frozen (e.g., I make \"red sauce\" in
16 qt
batches, meatloaf in 10 pound lots, etc) but I\'d be annoyed if the
results
weren\'t worth the time expended!
On 8/23/2020 11:19 AM, Don Y wrote:
I saw a 2 for 1 sale on Bottom round, so I tried Sous Vide on it. I sliced
it in 1\" thick pieces, seasoned it, bagged each piece separately and cooked
it for 18 hrs.
Wow! It takes THAT long? Have you played with the temperature setting to
see if you can trade time for quality/taste? E.g., how much faster you
could finish at ~150F and whether or not there would be any differences
in taste/texture?
The recipe I read said Bottom Round needs 24 hrs, a lot of this time is for
tenderizing a not so great piece of meat. I figured I could cook it a much,
much less because I sliced it before cooking, but I contacted my daughter
who does more Sous Vide than I do and she pointed out it all gets up to temp
in an hour, and you are using all the rest of the time to denature the proteins.
It turned out pink and tender. I\'ll do it again. I\'ll probably buy a real
sous vide machine, because they also circulate the water.
What have you found Sous Vide to be POORLY suited to? I don\'t mind spending
a day preparing meals that can be frozen (e.g., I make \"red sauce\" in 16 qt
batches, meatloaf in 10 pound lots, etc) but I\'d be annoyed if the results
weren\'t worth the time expended!
Google is more experienced than I am. The bottom round was an experiment
for me to see how a lower cost beef, bought at a 2 for 1 sale would turn out.
I\'m a novice and can better say what it is good for and that would be Steaks!
About 2 hr cook time at 135*F
You might find this steak experiment interesting.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d3wB68py1A0
It would be interesting to pull the slices of Bottom Roast out at 2, 4, 8, 16
and 24 hrs and test for tenderness and flavor.
I will add the second batch was not quite as tender as the first, the second
batch was the tapering tip of the bottom roast, I don\'t know if that is naturally
a tougher part (it wasn\'t really tough, just not quite as tender).
I also had an electrical problem when I popped my Tig welder and that ruined
my whole house Circuit Breaker*. The meat cooled for a couple hours while
I rounded up a replacement breaker. I don\'t know where the answer lies.
* I disassembled the Circuit Breaker and noted it apparently had a poor
connection on one line. The copper wires on that side were
obviously overheated, and the contact also showed overheating. I wonder if low
voltage on one side could have popped my Tig Machine?
Don Y wrote:
==========
The only heating elements operated \"open loop\" are the stovetop
\"calrods\".
** New name to me - seeems \"Calrod\" is a trade name owned by GE.
The name used here in Australia is simply \"element\" - stovetop, oven or kettle etc.
Their heat output is usually controlled by switching
the number of coils engaged.
** Nope.
Stovetop elements (or hobs) use mechanical power controllers that are rated to work with a certain current and switch power on and off with an adjustable duty cycle.
https://electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/252352/setting-heat-on-electric-stove
The thermal inertia of the element prevents you observing the cycling going on. An amp meter would display it very clearly.
.... Phil
On 8/23/2020 6:00 PM, amdx wrote:
On 8/23/2020 11:19 AM, Don Y wrote:
I saw a 2 for 1 sale on Bottom round, so I tried Sous Vide on it. I
sliced it in 1\" thick pieces, seasoned it, bagged each piece
separately and cooked it for 18 hrs.
Wow! It takes THAT long? Have you played with the temperature
setting to
see if you can trade time for quality/taste? E.g., how much faster you
could finish at ~150F and whether or not there would be any differences
in taste/texture?
The recipe I read said Bottom Round needs 24 hrs, a lot of this time
is for tenderizing a not so great piece of meat. I figured I could
cook it a much, much less because I sliced it before cooking, but I
contacted my daughter who does more Sous Vide than I do and she
pointed out it all gets up to temp
in an hour, and you are using all the rest of the time to denature
the proteins.
OK, so tender = time.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCpFuaxD-0PKLolFR3gWhrMw
Isn\'t 137 a bit cool for beef? I thought you needed like 150 to kill
of any
\"nasty stuff\" that may be lurking in the tissues?
It turned out pink and tender. I\'ll do it again. I\'ll probably buy
a real sous vide machine, because they also circulate the water.
What have you found Sous Vide to be POORLY suited to? I don\'t mind
spending
a day preparing meals that can be frozen (e.g., I make \"red sauce\"
in 16 qt
batches, meatloaf in 10 pound lots, etc) but I\'d be annoyed if the
results
weren\'t worth the time expended!
Google is more experienced than I am. The bottom round was an experiment
for me to see how a lower cost beef, bought at a 2 for 1 sale would
turn out.
Ah, makes sense. The appeal, for me, is one of convenience, not economy.
I\'d like to be able to prepare, in advance, more meal TYPES than I can,
currently. E.g., Sunday lunch is always an oriental-style pork dish
that I\'m sure could be precooked and reheated. But, would be tedious
to do using our current preparation style.
I\'m a novice and can better say what it is good for and that would be
Steaks!
About 2 hr cook time at 135*F
Yikes! Again, seems cool for beef...
You might find this steak experiment interesting.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d3wB68py1A0
Thanks, I\'ll have a look.
It would be interesting to pull the slices of Bottom Roast out at 2,
4, 8, 16 and 24 hrs and test for tenderness and flavor.
Can you do that? I thought you put the meal in a *sealed* pouch...
or, would
you just reseal it after each trial? (or, put it in a new pouch?) I
assume
these are pouches INTENDED to be sealed (not off-the-shelf \"ziploc
bags\")?
I will add the second batch was not quite as tender as the first, the
second batch was the tapering tip of the bottom roast, I don\'t know
if that is naturally
a tougher part (it wasn\'t really tough, just not quite as tender).
Yeah, when I buy beef \"pismos\", it\'s clear that \"all is not created
equal\"!
I also had an electrical problem when I popped my Tig welder and that
ruined
my whole house Circuit Breaker*. The meat cooled for a couple hours
while
I rounded up a replacement breaker. I don\'t know where the answer lies.
frown>Â As I said, I\'m not averse to making something over and over
again to
keep refining the recipe or process. (Most of my baking recipes have
been
refined literally HUNDREDS of times.)Â But, if each attempt takes the
better
part of a *day*, that can get old pretty quick!
* I disassembled the Circuit Breaker and noted it apparently had a
poor connection on one line. The copper wires on that side were
obviously overheated, and the contact also showed overheating. I
wonder if low voltage on one side could have popped my Tig Machine?
Don\'t know what it could have done to the welder but bad connections are
a common cause of fires, GFCI failures, etc. For that reason, I never
use
provisions on devices (e.g., second set of screw connections on
receptacles)
to daisy chain wiring. Instead, I make the connection under a wire
nut and
use a pigtail to tie a SINGLE connection to the device (receptacle).
A neighbor had his breaker box catch fire because of a flakey connection
to the service. Of course, hard to disconnect power when the problem is
upstream from your main! :> Had to be disconnected at the distribution
transformer, first. (our services are below grade; typically four
homes per
transformer)
On Saturday, 22 August 2020 20:52:19 UTC+1, Don Y wrote:
On 8/22/2020 12:12 PM, John Doe wrote:
No. Do you think your household oven has a \"preset current\" for
the heaating elements? And, that somehow that MAGICALLY results
in a 350 degree oven temperature regardless of how much mass you
have in side?
A typical oven cost a lot more than $60.
Not a cheap toaster oven!
Even a REAL toaster has a temperature control inside. When you set
for \"dark\", the bimetal element (legacy toaster) has to deflect
more to break the current to the heating element and operate the
ejector. When you set it for \"light\", it deflects less. The
deflection is a function of how much \"energy\" (heat) it absorbs.
You could, alternately, drive a toaster based on TIME. But, then
different loads would achieve different final temperatures.
I\'ve made enough use of old clockwork controlled toasters to know that\'s cobblers.
I\'ve never seen a toaster that was driven by TIME!
Those that I\'ve disassembled have a catch that is engaged when the
bread is \"loaded\". This holds the bread in the toaster AND turns
on the power to the heating elements.
The heat from those elements eventually deflects a bimetal bar.
When the bar has deflected enough, it presses on the catch to
release the bread (which are ejected via the spring mechanism).
The released bread removes power to the heating elements.
On Saturday, 22 August 2020 20:52:19 UTC+1, Don Y wrote:
Even a REAL toaster has a temperature control inside. When you set
for \"dark\", the bimetal element (legacy toaster) has to deflect
more to break the current to the heating element...
I\'ve made enough use of old clockwork controlled toasters to know that\'s cobblers.
Don Y wrote:
===========
The only heating elements operated \"open loop\" are the stovetop
\"calrods\".
** New name to me - seeems \"Calrod\" is a trade name owned by GE.
The name used here in Australia is simply \"element\" - stovetop, oven or kettle etc.
Their heat output is usually controlled by switching
the number of coils engaged.
** Nope.
Stovetop elements (or hobs) use mechanical power controllers that are rated to work with a certain current and switch power on and off with an adjustable duty cycle.
On 8/23/2020 8:52 PM, Don Y wrote:
OK, so tender = time.
I suggest you watch you watch several of this guys videos on your choice of meat.
Isn\'t 137 a bit cool for beef? I thought you needed like 150 to kill of any
\"nasty stuff\" that may be lurking in the tissues?
As I understand, the nasty stuff is on the outside not in the tissue. I get
your point, but that\'s the way it is done. I\'ve seen even lower temperatures.
Can you do that? I thought you put the meal in a *sealed* pouch... or, would
you just reseal it after each trial? (or, put it in a new pouch?) I assume
these are pouches INTENDED to be sealed (not off-the-shelf \"ziploc bags\")?
I bagged each slice separately, so it would be easy to do . I\'ve been pulling
a bag out of the freezer everyday or two and searing it.
I saved the juices and made gravy, on another day I made a broth for some
greens from my wife\'s garden.
I\'m not much of a cook, just starting to experiment, just bought some Salmon to
cook tomorrow, probably not sous vide, because I need to buy a real sous vide machine.
Pimpom <nobody@nowhere.com> wrote:
rangerssuck wrote:
John Doe wrote:
An air fryer. Settings.
Fan speed, temperature, and Watts.
What\'s the difference between temperature and Watts?
If it\'s set to 400°, what\'s the difference between 600 W and
1300 W?
I just don\'t get it.
one difference would be how fast it reaches the set temperature.
And the amount of food it can cope with to maintain that
temperature.
Only if you assume the fan speed varies AND the cooking temperature
is monitored. Not the case here.
The air fryer operation has nothing to do with volume of food.
This is the popular \"AS SEEN ON TV\" unit I\'m talking about...
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B075X3287P/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o07_s02?ie=UTF8&psc=1
I should ask the same in the question section, to get some very
silly answers.
Don Y wrote:
===========
The only heating elements operated \"open loop\" are the stovetop
\"calrods\".
** New name to me - seeems \"Calrod\" is a trade name owned by GE.
Their heat output is usually controlled by switching
the number of coils engaged.
** Nope.
Stovetop elements (or hobs) use mechanical power controllers that are rated to work with a certain current and switch power on and off with an adjustable duty cycle.
Well, some WERE controlled by having multiple elements,
and I\'ve used \'em.
For small pots, you\'d want to choose a setting that heated
the center spot but not the outer ring...
Path: eternal-september.org!reader01.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid
Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
Subject: Re: OT: Kitchen appliance weirdness
Date: Sun, 23 Aug 2020 19:36:34 -0700
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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Xref: reader01.eternal-september.org sci.electronics.design:606356
On 8/22/2020 4:04 PM, Tabby wrote:
On Saturday, 22 August 2020 20:52:19 UTC+1, Don Y wrote:
On 8/22/2020 12:12 PM, John Doe wrote:
No. Do you think your household oven has a \"preset current\" for
the heaating elements? And, that somehow that MAGICALLY results
in a 350 degree oven temperature regardless of how much mass you
have in side?
A typical oven cost a lot more than $60.
Not a cheap toaster oven!
Even a REAL toaster has a temperature control inside. When you set
for \"dark\", the bimetal element (legacy toaster) has to deflect
more to break the current to the heating element and operate the
ejector. When you set it for \"light\", it deflects less. The
deflection is a function of how much \"energy\" (heat) it absorbs.
You could, alternately, drive a toaster based on TIME. But, then
different loads would achieve different final temperatures.
I\'ve made enough use of old clockwork controlled toasters to know that\'s cobblers.
I\'ve never seen a toaster that was driven by TIME!
Those that I\'ve disassembled have a catch that is engaged when the
bread is \"loaded\". This holds the bread in the toaster AND turns
on the power to the heating elements.
The heat from those elements eventually deflects a bimetal bar.
When the bar has deflected enough, it presses on the catch to
release the bread (which are ejected via the spring mechanism).
The released bread removes power to the heating elements.
Eventually, the bimetal bar returns to its \"relaxed\" state.
The position of the bimetal bar plays a role in how a SINGLE slice
of bread is toasted. The top of the toaster has markings telling
you which slot to use in such cases -- so the bread delays the
action of the bimetal bar until the bread has reached the desired
temperature. (Putting the slice in the \"other\" slot would result
in the cycle completing far too quickly to toast the bread!)
This wouldn\'t be necessary in a clockwork control mechanism,
would it?
Similarly, if one tries to restart the cycle immediately after
the bread has been ejected (because the toast is too light),
the mechanism won\'t \"catch\"; the bread won\'t stay \"loaded\"
and the cycle won\'t start because of not being loaded.
So, one learns that if you want to darken the bread \"a little\",
then you either tweek the darkness setting OR manually hold
the \"loading lever\" depressed (to maintain the pressure on the
switch that controls the heating elements).
Again, that shouldn\'t be required if driven by a clockwork
mechanism, right?
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Subject: Re: OT: Kitchen appliance weirdness
From: Ricketty C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com
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Xref: reader01.eternal-september.org sci.electronics.design:606366
On Saturday, August 22, 2020 at 1:05:12 AM UTC-4, John Doe wrote:
Pimpom <nobody@nowhere.com> wrote:
rangerssuck wrote:
John Doe wrote:
An air fryer. Settings.
Fan speed, temperature, and Watts.
What\'s the difference between temperature and Watts?
If it\'s set to 400¶ø, what\'s the difference between 600 W and
1300 W?
I just don\'t get it.
one difference would be how fast it reaches the set temperature.
And the amount of food it can cope with to maintain that
temperature.
Only if you assume the fan speed varies AND the cooking temperature
is monitored. Not the case here.
The air fryer operation has nothing to do with volume of food.
This is the popular \"AS SEEN ON TV\" unit I\'m talking about...
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B075X3287P/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title
_o07_s02?ie=UTF8&psc=1
I should ask the same in the question section, to get some very
silly answers.
Actually, the volume of food is very relevant. Food is not a lump of brick that is unchanged by heating it. Chemical processes are triggered and more importantly water is driven out. If you don\'t supply enough watts to account for the water vapor being created the temperature won\'t be maintained.
--
Rick C.
-- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
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whit got it right again
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Don Y wrote:
Their heat output is usually controlled by switching
the number of coils engaged.
** Nope.
Stovetop elements (or hobs) use mechanical power controllers that are rated to work with a certain current and switch power on and off with an adjustable duty cycle.
Well, some WERE controlled by having multiple elements,
** You can see the words \"Calrod\" and \"usually\" in Don Ys\'s post?
Calrods are nearly all single coil types and variable duty cycle switches are the only way used control them.
Don Y wrote:
Their heat output is usually controlled by switching
the number of coils engaged.
** Nope.
Stovetop elements (or hobs) use mechanical power controllers that are rated to work with a certain current and switch power on and off with an adjustable duty cycle.
Well, some WERE controlled by having multiple elements,
** You can see the words \"Calrod\" and \"usually\" in Don Ys\'s post?
Calrods are nearly all single coil types and variable duty cycle switches are the only way used control them.
And here\'s a pic of the double coil type, outer/inner (the three-or-four electrical connections gives the scheme away).
https://images.app.goo.gl/RGUq6Qa2Van2MEtY6
Why do peons from pipsqueak little countries enjoy bashing big
powerful countries like America?
An air fryer. Settings.
Fan speed, temperature, and Watts.
What\'s the difference between temperature and Watts?
If it\'s set to 400°, what\'s the difference between 600 W and 1300 W?
I just don\'t get it.
Thanks.
On 8/23/2020 7:29 PM, amdx wrote:
On 8/23/2020 8:52 PM, Don Y wrote:
I bagged each slice separately, so it would be easy to do . I\'ve been
pulling a bag out of the freezer everyday or two and searing it.
That\'s how I store my (cooked) meatloaf; slice, cool and then slide
into a
\"sandwich bag\" (having taken care to ensure the loaf\'s dimensions are
such that the slice isn\'t too big to fit inside); then spoon a couple of
tablespoons of the (spiced) \"sauce\" that I\'ve set aside to ensure the
slice is very moist when thawed.
But, sandwich bags (not zip loc) are dirt cheap and you don\'t worry
about peeling the bag off and throwing it away.
I had 12 or 13, I\'m down to 2.
Yeah, that\'s the downside to \"cooking ahead\". It\'s TOO easy to
overindulge!
I can eat several steaks or slices of meatloaf at a time as the effort
has
already been expended in making them! Eating is considerably easier!!
On 8/23/2020 9:56 PM, Don Y wrote:
Yeah, that\'s the downside to \"cooking ahead\". It\'s TOO easy to
overindulge! I can eat several steaks or slices of meatloaf at a time as
the effort has already been expended in making them! Eating is
considerably easier!!
I\'ve limited the pieces I eat to one a day or less.
I didn\'t, it lasted about 9 weeks. In the 4-1/2 months since I stopped keto,
I have gained 9 lbs, so I\'m trimming intake and plan on getting back to my keto low.