J
JM
Guest
Capture & PCB Editor perpetual licence - $530
https://www.ema-eda.com/offers/Purchase-OrCAD-Today
https://www.ema-eda.com/offers/Purchase-OrCAD-Today
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JM
Guest
On 06/08/2020 19:33, JM wrote:
Offer applies to Europe as well...
Capture & PCB Editor perpetual licence - $530
https://www.ema-eda.com/offers/Purchase-OrCAD-Today
Offer applies to Europe as well...
R
Ricketty C
Guest
On Thursday, August 6, 2020 at 4:03:49 PM UTC-4, JM wrote:
What does Orcad have to offer that is not available in KiCAD?
--
Rick C.
- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
On 06/08/2020 19:33, JM wrote:
Capture & PCB Editor perpetual licence - $530
https://www.ema-eda.com/offers/Purchase-OrCAD-Today
Offer applies to Europe as well...
What does Orcad have to offer that is not available in KiCAD?
--
Rick C.
- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
F
Flyguy
Guest
On Thursday, August 6, 2020 at 1:59:58 PM UTC-7, Ricketty C wrote:
Orcad does have an autorouter and signal integrity tool. But you can\'t beat the price of Kicad (FREE!), especially since Eagle freeware is history.On Thursday, August 6, 2020 at 4:03:49 PM UTC-4, JM wrote:
On 06/08/2020 19:33, JM wrote:
Capture & PCB Editor perpetual licence - $530
https://www.ema-eda.com/offers/Purchase-OrCAD-Today
Offer applies to Europe as well...
What does Orcad have to offer that is not available in KiCAD?
--
Rick C.
- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
D
Don Y
Guest
On 8/6/2020 1:59 PM, Ricketty C wrote:
As with any FOSS EDA package, the question to ask is \"where was
<FOSS package> 10 years ago? 20? 30?? 40??? And, what
capabilities did it have way-back-then?\"
If you\'re a hobbyist and don\'t have to worry about interfacing with
others in your \"organization\", or supporting designs (which includes
symbol and pad libraries) that may have been created 5-10 years
ago -- then you have the freedom to choose damn near any tool that
your heart desires AND LIVE WITH ITS SHORTCOMINGS going forward.
OTOH, if you have a cache of existing designs (and corporate
standards) with which your NEW design has to seemlessly integrate,
then you may find yourself rebuilding symbol libraries in <new tool>
instead of just adding one or two new symbols to the OLD library
for this new design.
I found OrCAD (Capture & Layout) to be tolerable tools. Like most
EDA tools, they have their quirks. But, do a couple of designs in
them and you learn what to avoid, which tricks to leverage, etc.
At the time, hot-probing schematic/PCB and seeing the corresponding
traces/signals in PCB/schematic was a delight. It\'s what originally
led me to using multiple monitors for my desktop (as a \"full screen\"
window for Capture AND Layout make much more sense than silly little
stacked windows into each!) But, I imagine this is old-hat for more
recent users.
[But, then again, I found DASH-STRIDES and DASH-PCB to be tolerable;
esp given the dearth of other affordable tools available on the PC
platform back then! Especially hierarchical design!]
On Thursday, August 6, 2020 at 4:03:49 PM UTC-4, JM wrote:
On 06/08/2020 19:33, JM wrote:
Capture & PCB Editor perpetual licence - $530
https://www.ema-eda.com/offers/Purchase-OrCAD-Today
Offer applies to Europe as well...
What does Orcad have to offer that is not available in KiCAD?
As with any FOSS EDA package, the question to ask is \"where was
<FOSS package> 10 years ago? 20? 30?? 40??? And, what
capabilities did it have way-back-then?\"
If you\'re a hobbyist and don\'t have to worry about interfacing with
others in your \"organization\", or supporting designs (which includes
symbol and pad libraries) that may have been created 5-10 years
ago -- then you have the freedom to choose damn near any tool that
your heart desires AND LIVE WITH ITS SHORTCOMINGS going forward.
OTOH, if you have a cache of existing designs (and corporate
standards) with which your NEW design has to seemlessly integrate,
then you may find yourself rebuilding symbol libraries in <new tool>
instead of just adding one or two new symbols to the OLD library
for this new design.
I found OrCAD (Capture & Layout) to be tolerable tools. Like most
EDA tools, they have their quirks. But, do a couple of designs in
them and you learn what to avoid, which tricks to leverage, etc.
At the time, hot-probing schematic/PCB and seeing the corresponding
traces/signals in PCB/schematic was a delight. It\'s what originally
led me to using multiple monitors for my desktop (as a \"full screen\"
window for Capture AND Layout make much more sense than silly little
stacked windows into each!) But, I imagine this is old-hat for more
recent users.
[But, then again, I found DASH-STRIDES and DASH-PCB to be tolerable;
esp given the dearth of other affordable tools available on the PC
platform back then! Especially hierarchical design!]
R
Ricketty C
Guest
On Thursday, August 6, 2020 at 7:16:26 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
That was a long post to say so little.
You start out talking about some sort of history lesson without actually saying anything.
Then you seem to be dissing the KiCAD capabilities without actually mentioning any.
So you don\'t like converting between systems. Who does? But this is not about maintaining the status quo really, its about the offer from Orcad vs. KiCAD, so let\'s stick to the issues of the tools. I hope you realize the world doesn\'t use Orcad exclusively. Not everyone would have to convert from Orcad.
Then you finish up with a mention of a feature found in Orcad without even mentioning if it exists in KiCAD.
Wow! You would be one terrible salesman. I\'d be washing my hand after you shook it, if I shook yours at all.
--
Rick C.
+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
On 8/6/2020 1:59 PM, Ricketty C wrote:
On Thursday, August 6, 2020 at 4:03:49 PM UTC-4, JM wrote:
On 06/08/2020 19:33, JM wrote:
Capture & PCB Editor perpetual licence - $530
https://www.ema-eda.com/offers/Purchase-OrCAD-Today
Offer applies to Europe as well...
What does Orcad have to offer that is not available in KiCAD?
As with any FOSS EDA package, the question to ask is \"where was
FOSS package> 10 years ago? 20? 30?? 40??? And, what
capabilities did it have way-back-then?\"
If you\'re a hobbyist and don\'t have to worry about interfacing with
others in your \"organization\", or supporting designs (which includes
symbol and pad libraries) that may have been created 5-10 years
ago -- then you have the freedom to choose damn near any tool that
your heart desires AND LIVE WITH ITS SHORTCOMINGS going forward.
OTOH, if you have a cache of existing designs (and corporate
standards) with which your NEW design has to seemlessly integrate,
then you may find yourself rebuilding symbol libraries in <new tool
instead of just adding one or two new symbols to the OLD library
for this new design.
I found OrCAD (Capture & Layout) to be tolerable tools. Like most
EDA tools, they have their quirks. But, do a couple of designs in
them and you learn what to avoid, which tricks to leverage, etc.
At the time, hot-probing schematic/PCB and seeing the corresponding
traces/signals in PCB/schematic was a delight. It\'s what originally
led me to using multiple monitors for my desktop (as a \"full screen\"
window for Capture AND Layout make much more sense than silly little
stacked windows into each!) But, I imagine this is old-hat for more
recent users.
[But, then again, I found DASH-STRIDES and DASH-PCB to be tolerable;
esp given the dearth of other affordable tools available on the PC
platform back then! Especially hierarchical design!]
That was a long post to say so little.
You start out talking about some sort of history lesson without actually saying anything.
Then you seem to be dissing the KiCAD capabilities without actually mentioning any.
So you don\'t like converting between systems. Who does? But this is not about maintaining the status quo really, its about the offer from Orcad vs. KiCAD, so let\'s stick to the issues of the tools. I hope you realize the world doesn\'t use Orcad exclusively. Not everyone would have to convert from Orcad.
Then you finish up with a mention of a feature found in Orcad without even mentioning if it exists in KiCAD.
Wow! You would be one terrible salesman. I\'d be washing my hand after you shook it, if I shook yours at all.
--
Rick C.
+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
D
Don Y
Guest
On 8/6/2020 5:07 PM, Ricketty C wrote:
I said I enjoyed using OrCAD -- at the time THAT I WAS FORCED TO USE IT.
Just as I enjoyed using DASH-PCB -- when there were no other real alternatives
(I didn\'t want to buy a ComputerVision workstation!)
The implication of my past experience with COTS tools is that I am loath
to drop them -- and my experiences/support libraries with them -- in
favor of a zero-dollar tool that wasn\'t around when I needed it. What\'s
the upside -- for me -- to learn another set of bugs/features? Is KiCAD
going to enable me to design some board that I previously couldn\'t? No.
I learned early on to avoid clients who skimped on tools as *I* didn\'t
want to waste my time trying to work around THEIR economies.
I said nothing at all regarding KiCAD\'s capabilities. People with $0 EDA
budgets probably love it -- their time isn\'t worth anything (to themselves)
in the calculus. Likewise, people designing little 2-4 layer boards.
OTOH, designing a *dense*, multilayer board may leave them wishing for
a more capable tool. Unless, of course, they don\'t care how many hours
they put into getting a finished product.
I have 22 designs going into fab over the next few months. Before I
started the first of these, I reevaluated the various tools that I have
on hand to determine where I\'d likely have the fewest \"issues\".
Because, while the tools are all paid for (thus \"free\") as is the training,
the potential hassles that I\'m likely to encounter with the designs and
layouts represent hours of my life (and design risks) that I\'d not like
to casually waste. I\'m not billing on a T&M job where \"you\" can pay for
those inefficiencies.
> So you don\'t like converting between systems. Who does?
If you\'re a HOBBYIST, then it\'s just a matter of whether or not you
\"like converting between systems\". If you\'re an employee, contractor or
businessman, then it\'s more than an issue of what you \"like\" and \"don\'t
like\". There are REAL dollars and market opportunities at stake.
But this is not
So, are we going to repeat this exercise for Mentor? Altium? Eagle?
DIPTrace? etc. Why don\'t you find a forum that spends its time discussing
those comparison OPINIONS. I suspect you\'ll come away with no clear
indication of which is \"better\" -- esp for YOUR particular needs.
And not everyone would entertain a tool that has no \"paid support\".
What do you do when you need to get artwork out and there\'s no vendor
with real skin in the game?
Why don\'t you just spend a few weeks using each and come to an answer for
yourself? That\'s how I evaluated each EDA, CAD, etc. tool that I purchased.
Playing with some contrived \"demo\" never shows you the issues (costs)
that YOU are likely to face.
Ages ago, I had a client who used Wintek (ick, ick, ick!). Do *I* want to
modify your existing design using that tool? No thanks -- maybe someone
else might, though!
Clearly if ANYONE offers their own PERSONAL take on THEIR experience with a
tool, you\'ll find some reason to dismiss it as being irrelevant to YOUR
particular needs. So, why bother?
There are lots of demo designs out there. Try to route each of them
using a variety of tools. Try building a new padstack. Try building
a new symbol. Try resolving a \"bug\" under a deadline schedule. Port
one of YOUR designs to a toolset and see how easily it migrates and
how effectively you can use that tool for your REAL problem.
Then, come up with your own appraisal of the tools.
We won\'t care.
On Thursday, August 6, 2020 at 7:16:26 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
On 8/6/2020 1:59 PM, Ricketty C wrote:
On Thursday, August 6, 2020 at 4:03:49 PM UTC-4, JM wrote:
On 06/08/2020 19:33, JM wrote:
Capture & PCB Editor perpetual licence - $530
https://www.ema-eda.com/offers/Purchase-OrCAD-Today
Offer applies to Europe as well...
What does Orcad have to offer that is not available in KiCAD?
As with any FOSS EDA package, the question to ask is \"where was <FOSS
package> 10 years ago? 20? 30?? 40??? And, what capabilities did it
have way-back-then?\"
If you\'re a hobbyist and don\'t have to worry about interfacing with others
in your \"organization\", or supporting designs (which includes symbol and
pad libraries) that may have been created 5-10 years ago -- then you have
the freedom to choose damn near any tool that your heart desires AND LIVE
WITH ITS SHORTCOMINGS going forward.
OTOH, if you have a cache of existing designs (and corporate standards)
with which your NEW design has to seemlessly integrate, then you may find
yourself rebuilding symbol libraries in <new tool> instead of just adding
one or two new symbols to the OLD library for this new design.
I found OrCAD (Capture & Layout) to be tolerable tools. Like most EDA
tools, they have their quirks. But, do a couple of designs in them and
you learn what to avoid, which tricks to leverage, etc. At the time,
hot-probing schematic/PCB and seeing the corresponding traces/signals in
PCB/schematic was a delight. It\'s what originally led me to using
multiple monitors for my desktop (as a \"full screen\" window for Capture
AND Layout make much more sense than silly little stacked windows into
each!) But, I imagine this is old-hat for more recent users.
[But, then again, I found DASH-STRIDES and DASH-PCB to be tolerable; esp
given the dearth of other affordable tools available on the PC platform
back then! Especially hierarchical design!]
That was a long post to say so little.
You start out talking about some sort of history lesson without actually
saying anything.
I said I enjoyed using OrCAD -- at the time THAT I WAS FORCED TO USE IT.
Just as I enjoyed using DASH-PCB -- when there were no other real alternatives
(I didn\'t want to buy a ComputerVision workstation!)
The implication of my past experience with COTS tools is that I am loath
to drop them -- and my experiences/support libraries with them -- in
favor of a zero-dollar tool that wasn\'t around when I needed it. What\'s
the upside -- for me -- to learn another set of bugs/features? Is KiCAD
going to enable me to design some board that I previously couldn\'t? No.
I learned early on to avoid clients who skimped on tools as *I* didn\'t
want to waste my time trying to work around THEIR economies.
Then you seem to be dissing the KiCAD capabilities without actually
mentioning any.
I said nothing at all regarding KiCAD\'s capabilities. People with $0 EDA
budgets probably love it -- their time isn\'t worth anything (to themselves)
in the calculus. Likewise, people designing little 2-4 layer boards.
OTOH, designing a *dense*, multilayer board may leave them wishing for
a more capable tool. Unless, of course, they don\'t care how many hours
they put into getting a finished product.
I have 22 designs going into fab over the next few months. Before I
started the first of these, I reevaluated the various tools that I have
on hand to determine where I\'d likely have the fewest \"issues\".
Because, while the tools are all paid for (thus \"free\") as is the training,
the potential hassles that I\'m likely to encounter with the designs and
layouts represent hours of my life (and design risks) that I\'d not like
to casually waste. I\'m not billing on a T&M job where \"you\" can pay for
those inefficiencies.
> So you don\'t like converting between systems. Who does?
If you\'re a HOBBYIST, then it\'s just a matter of whether or not you
\"like converting between systems\". If you\'re an employee, contractor or
businessman, then it\'s more than an issue of what you \"like\" and \"don\'t
like\". There are REAL dollars and market opportunities at stake.
But this is not
about maintaining the status quo really, its about the offer from Orcad vs.
KiCAD, so let\'s stick to the issues of the tools. I hope you realize the
world doesn\'t use Orcad exclusively. Not everyone would have to convert
from Orcad.
So, are we going to repeat this exercise for Mentor? Altium? Eagle?
DIPTrace? etc. Why don\'t you find a forum that spends its time discussing
those comparison OPINIONS. I suspect you\'ll come away with no clear
indication of which is \"better\" -- esp for YOUR particular needs.
And not everyone would entertain a tool that has no \"paid support\".
What do you do when you need to get artwork out and there\'s no vendor
with real skin in the game?
Then you finish up with a mention of a feature found in Orcad without even
mentioning if it exists in KiCAD.
Wow! You would be one terrible salesman. I\'d be washing my hand after you
shook it, if I shook yours at all.
Why don\'t you just spend a few weeks using each and come to an answer for
yourself? That\'s how I evaluated each EDA, CAD, etc. tool that I purchased.
Playing with some contrived \"demo\" never shows you the issues (costs)
that YOU are likely to face.
Ages ago, I had a client who used Wintek (ick, ick, ick!). Do *I* want to
modify your existing design using that tool? No thanks -- maybe someone
else might, though!
Clearly if ANYONE offers their own PERSONAL take on THEIR experience with a
tool, you\'ll find some reason to dismiss it as being irrelevant to YOUR
particular needs. So, why bother?
There are lots of demo designs out there. Try to route each of them
using a variety of tools. Try building a new padstack. Try building
a new symbol. Try resolving a \"bug\" under a deadline schedule. Port
one of YOUR designs to a toolset and see how easily it migrates and
how effectively you can use that tool for your REAL problem.
Then, come up with your own appraisal of the tools.
We won\'t care.
R
Ricketty C
Guest
On Thursday, August 6, 2020 at 8:47:10 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
Ok, but your issues of what you are familiar with is not very relevant to anyone else. I was trying to discuss the tool, not your level of comfort. No one is trying to proselytize you.
Exactly!
You did talk about the tool having shortcomings. I guess you were talking in the generic.
You know nothing about KiCAD but you are happy to diss it? Here you clearly seem to be dissing the tool. Or maybe you just think nothing compares to Orcad???
Are you actually saying anything at all?
Ok, I feel for you.
I\'m a business person. I make millions from the designs I produce. That doesn\'t mean I\'m not willing to look at new tools.
What exercise are you talking about really? You seem to be making a huge mountain out of a rather tiny molehill. I asked what Orcad can do that that KiCAD doesn\'t and you seem to have turned this into a major assault on your design process. Sorry I asked.
Resolve the issue?
I was taking a course on high speed design and the instructor was talking about a chip vendor who was hugely over recommending capacitors to be used with their product. He decided he could create an effective design with many less caps by doing a proper analysis of the PDS. The chip vendor\'s representative said, \"We can\'t guarantee your design will work if you don\'t follow the recommendation.\" The instructor had asked if he did follow the recommendation did they guarantee his board would work?
What CAE vendor guarantees your tools will work when you need them to?
Thanks for... well, nothing really. So why exactly did you post all this? If you know nothing about KiCAD, why did you post at all?
Oh, is it because you think nothing can compare to Orcad? Why didn\'t you just say that you recommend Orcad? That would have been so much easier for both of us.
--
Rick C.
-- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
-- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
On 8/6/2020 5:07 PM, Ricketty C wrote:
On Thursday, August 6, 2020 at 7:16:26 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
On 8/6/2020 1:59 PM, Ricketty C wrote:
On Thursday, August 6, 2020 at 4:03:49 PM UTC-4, JM wrote:
On 06/08/2020 19:33, JM wrote:
Capture & PCB Editor perpetual licence - $530
https://www.ema-eda.com/offers/Purchase-OrCAD-Today
Offer applies to Europe as well...
What does Orcad have to offer that is not available in KiCAD?
As with any FOSS EDA package, the question to ask is \"where was <FOSS
package> 10 years ago? 20? 30?? 40??? And, what capabilities did it
have way-back-then?\"
If you\'re a hobbyist and don\'t have to worry about interfacing with others
in your \"organization\", or supporting designs (which includes symbol and
pad libraries) that may have been created 5-10 years ago -- then you have
the freedom to choose damn near any tool that your heart desires AND LIVE
WITH ITS SHORTCOMINGS going forward.
OTOH, if you have a cache of existing designs (and corporate standards)
with which your NEW design has to seemlessly integrate, then you may find
yourself rebuilding symbol libraries in <new tool> instead of just adding
one or two new symbols to the OLD library for this new design.
I found OrCAD (Capture & Layout) to be tolerable tools. Like most EDA
tools, they have their quirks. But, do a couple of designs in them and
you learn what to avoid, which tricks to leverage, etc. At the time,
hot-probing schematic/PCB and seeing the corresponding traces/signals in
PCB/schematic was a delight. It\'s what originally led me to using
multiple monitors for my desktop (as a \"full screen\" window for Capture
AND Layout make much more sense than silly little stacked windows into
each!) But, I imagine this is old-hat for more recent users.
[But, then again, I found DASH-STRIDES and DASH-PCB to be tolerable; esp
given the dearth of other affordable tools available on the PC platform
back then! Especially hierarchical design!]
That was a long post to say so little.
You start out talking about some sort of history lesson without actually
saying anything.
I said I enjoyed using OrCAD -- at the time THAT I WAS FORCED TO USE IT.
Just as I enjoyed using DASH-PCB -- when there were no other real alternatives
(I didn\'t want to buy a ComputerVision workstation!)
The implication of my past experience with COTS tools is that I am loath
to drop them -- and my experiences/support libraries with them -- in
favor of a zero-dollar tool that wasn\'t around when I needed it. What\'s
the upside -- for me -- to learn another set of bugs/features? Is KiCAD
going to enable me to design some board that I previously couldn\'t? No.
Ok, but your issues of what you are familiar with is not very relevant to anyone else. I was trying to discuss the tool, not your level of comfort. No one is trying to proselytize you.
I learned early on to avoid clients who skimped on tools as *I* didn\'t
want to waste my time trying to work around THEIR economies.
Then you seem to be dissing the KiCAD capabilities without actually
mentioning any.
I said nothing at all regarding KiCAD\'s capabilities.
Exactly!
You did talk about the tool having shortcomings. I guess you were talking in the generic.
People with $0 EDA
budgets probably love it -- their time isn\'t worth anything (to themselves)
in the calculus. Likewise, people designing little 2-4 layer boards.
OTOH, designing a *dense*, multilayer board may leave them wishing for
a more capable tool. Unless, of course, they don\'t care how many hours
they put into getting a finished product.
You know nothing about KiCAD but you are happy to diss it? Here you clearly seem to be dissing the tool. Or maybe you just think nothing compares to Orcad???
Are you actually saying anything at all?
I have 22 designs going into fab over the next few months. Before I
started the first of these, I reevaluated the various tools that I have
on hand to determine where I\'d likely have the fewest \"issues\".
Because, while the tools are all paid for (thus \"free\") as is the training,
the potential hassles that I\'m likely to encounter with the designs and
layouts represent hours of my life (and design risks) that I\'d not like
to casually waste. I\'m not billing on a T&M job where \"you\" can pay for
those inefficiencies.
Ok, I feel for you.
So you don\'t like converting between systems. Who does?
If you\'re a HOBBYIST, then it\'s just a matter of whether or not you
\"like converting between systems\". If you\'re an employee, contractor or
businessman, then it\'s more than an issue of what you \"like\" and \"don\'t
like\". There are REAL dollars and market opportunities at stake.
I\'m a business person. I make millions from the designs I produce. That doesn\'t mean I\'m not willing to look at new tools.
But this is not
about maintaining the status quo really, its about the offer from Orcad vs.
KiCAD, so let\'s stick to the issues of the tools. I hope you realize the
world doesn\'t use Orcad exclusively. Not everyone would have to convert
from Orcad.
So, are we going to repeat this exercise for Mentor? Altium? Eagle?
DIPTrace? etc. Why don\'t you find a forum that spends its time discussing
those comparison OPINIONS. I suspect you\'ll come away with no clear
indication of which is \"better\" -- esp for YOUR particular needs.
What exercise are you talking about really? You seem to be making a huge mountain out of a rather tiny molehill. I asked what Orcad can do that that KiCAD doesn\'t and you seem to have turned this into a major assault on your design process. Sorry I asked.
And not everyone would entertain a tool that has no \"paid support\".
What do you do when you need to get artwork out and there\'s no vendor
with real skin in the game?
Resolve the issue?
I was taking a course on high speed design and the instructor was talking about a chip vendor who was hugely over recommending capacitors to be used with their product. He decided he could create an effective design with many less caps by doing a proper analysis of the PDS. The chip vendor\'s representative said, \"We can\'t guarantee your design will work if you don\'t follow the recommendation.\" The instructor had asked if he did follow the recommendation did they guarantee his board would work?
What CAE vendor guarantees your tools will work when you need them to?
Then you finish up with a mention of a feature found in Orcad without even
mentioning if it exists in KiCAD.
Wow! You would be one terrible salesman. I\'d be washing my hand after you
shook it, if I shook yours at all.
Why don\'t you just spend a few weeks using each and come to an answer for
yourself? That\'s how I evaluated each EDA, CAD, etc. tool that I purchased.
Playing with some contrived \"demo\" never shows you the issues (costs)
that YOU are likely to face.
Ages ago, I had a client who used Wintek (ick, ick, ick!). Do *I* want to
modify your existing design using that tool? No thanks -- maybe someone
else might, though!
Clearly if ANYONE offers their own PERSONAL take on THEIR experience with a
tool, you\'ll find some reason to dismiss it as being irrelevant to YOUR
particular needs. So, why bother?
There are lots of demo designs out there. Try to route each of them
using a variety of tools. Try building a new padstack. Try building
a new symbol. Try resolving a \"bug\" under a deadline schedule. Port
one of YOUR designs to a toolset and see how easily it migrates and
how effectively you can use that tool for your REAL problem.
Then, come up with your own appraisal of the tools.
We won\'t care.
Thanks for... well, nothing really. So why exactly did you post all this? If you know nothing about KiCAD, why did you post at all?
Oh, is it because you think nothing can compare to Orcad? Why didn\'t you just say that you recommend Orcad? That would have been so much easier for both of us.
--
Rick C.
-- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
-- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
D
Don Y
Guest
On 8/6/2020 6:47 PM, Ricketty C wrote:
It\'s relavent to ANYONE who has an IP invested in a particular tool.
That\'s the whole point of my post!
\"What does Orcad have to offer that is not available in KiCAD?\"
Ans: 100% compatibility with OTHER DESIGNS that you may have
in place using OrCAD.
IME, that\'s the biggest cost to using a tool. Do you want to
retweek your EXISTING schematic/parts library -- which already
WORKS for your <favorite> tool -- just to take advantage of
a \"free\" tool?
I said *nothing* that should have led you to think OrCAD is the
epitome of EDA tools.
> Are you actually saying anything at all?
Yes. See above.
In case you missed it, \"see above\".
If you have no IP, then it clearly doesn\'t pertain to you.
If you\'ve got a big roll of rubilyth in the back room and
an endless supply of xacto blades, then the featuresets of
all of these tools are unimportant to you.
I have a life outside of designing kit. I want to spend the least
amount of time relearning yet another tool to do what a tool I
already have on hand does \"adequately\".
I don\'t continuously \"update\" existing tools just because a vendor offers
an upgrade -- free or not. Upgrading costs time and introduces risk
(what NEW bugs have been introduced? what old use patterns no longer
work as expected?)
The exercise of comparing OrCAD to \"free\" KiCAD. Why limit your search to
an analysis of just those two tools (since you are so willing to explore new
tools!)?
If JM posts an offer for DIPTrace, will you ask \"What does DIPTrace offer that
KiCAD doesn\'t?\"
They are (financially) motivated to ensure I am happy with their tool.
I purchased the Advanced Modeling Extension for AutoCAD 11 (?) many
years ago. Two days later, I had uncovered a reproducible bug. My
\"rep\" doubted this: \"It\'s AUTOCAD!\" (good rep). A few days later,
I had an apology and a new copy of AutoCAD and AME that fixed the bug
(actually, an entire new retail package).
Assuming there was a 3D CAD FOSS product available at the time, do
I think anyone would have made my bug a priority?
Again, \"see above\".
If you are running KiCAD, then you\'ll discover there is a hidden (large)
cost to switching to OrCAD. Or DIPTrace. Or Eagle. Or...
So, if you\'re running KiCAD -- and it is sufficient to meet your design
needs -- then don\'t bother looking at OrCAD (unless you have lots of time
to waste on moving to a new tool -- why not spend even MORE money and
time and move to, for example, Altium?).
*You* think I recommend OrCAD. Please find where *I* recommended it?
[I\'ve used probably a dozen EDA tools over the years and have very strong
opinions on each of their merits -- esp in the timeframes when they were
adopted. Hint: I\'m *not* using OrCAD in my current batch of designs!
And I\'m definitely not using KiCAD. It definitely doesn\'t offer me
anything that I don\'t already have MORE of!]
As I said, TRY each of them on a REAL design. Not some artificial design
that THEY concocted. You can look at a list of \"features\" and come away
with absolutely no understanding of how effectively any of those features
are implemented. (e.g., DASH-PCB could do SMT in the early 80\'s. OTOH,
if you actually tried to use it for an SMT design, you would discover lots
of warts that made it totally ineffective in that domain).
Good luck in your search!
On Thursday, August 6, 2020 at 8:47:10 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
On 8/6/2020 5:07 PM, Ricketty C wrote:
On Thursday, August 6, 2020 at 7:16:26 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
On 8/6/2020 1:59 PM, Ricketty C wrote:
On Thursday, August 6, 2020 at 4:03:49 PM UTC-4, JM wrote:
On 06/08/2020 19:33, JM wrote:
Capture & PCB Editor perpetual licence - $530
https://www.ema-eda.com/offers/Purchase-OrCAD-Today
Offer applies to Europe as well...
What does Orcad have to offer that is not available in KiCAD?
As with any FOSS EDA package, the question to ask is \"where was <FOSS
package> 10 years ago? 20? 30?? 40??? And, what capabilities did
it have way-back-then?\"
If you\'re a hobbyist and don\'t have to worry about interfacing with
others in your \"organization\", or supporting designs (which includes
symbol and pad libraries) that may have been created 5-10 years ago --
then you have the freedom to choose damn near any tool that your heart
desires AND LIVE WITH ITS SHORTCOMINGS going forward.
OTOH, if you have a cache of existing designs (and corporate
standards) with which your NEW design has to seemlessly integrate,
then you may find yourself rebuilding symbol libraries in <new tool
instead of just adding one or two new symbols to the OLD library for
this new design.
I found OrCAD (Capture & Layout) to be tolerable tools. Like most
EDA tools, they have their quirks. But, do a couple of designs in
them and you learn what to avoid, which tricks to leverage, etc. At
the time, hot-probing schematic/PCB and seeing the corresponding
traces/signals in PCB/schematic was a delight. It\'s what originally
led me to using multiple monitors for my desktop (as a \"full screen\"
window for Capture AND Layout make much more sense than silly little
stacked windows into each!) But, I imagine this is old-hat for more
recent users.
[But, then again, I found DASH-STRIDES and DASH-PCB to be tolerable;
esp given the dearth of other affordable tools available on the PC
platform back then! Especially hierarchical design!]
That was a long post to say so little.
You start out talking about some sort of history lesson without
actually saying anything.
I said I enjoyed using OrCAD -- at the time THAT I WAS FORCED TO USE IT.
Just as I enjoyed using DASH-PCB -- when there were no other real
alternatives (I didn\'t want to buy a ComputerVision workstation!)
The implication of my past experience with COTS tools is that I am loath
to drop them -- and my experiences/support libraries with them -- in favor
of a zero-dollar tool that wasn\'t around when I needed it. What\'s the
upside -- for me -- to learn another set of bugs/features? Is KiCAD going
to enable me to design some board that I previously couldn\'t? No.
Ok, but your issues of what you are familiar with is not very relevant to
anyone else. I was trying to discuss the tool, not your level of comfort.
No one is trying to proselytize you.
It\'s relavent to ANYONE who has an IP invested in a particular tool.
That\'s the whole point of my post!
\"What does Orcad have to offer that is not available in KiCAD?\"
Ans: 100% compatibility with OTHER DESIGNS that you may have
in place using OrCAD.
IME, that\'s the biggest cost to using a tool. Do you want to
retweek your EXISTING schematic/parts library -- which already
WORKS for your <favorite> tool -- just to take advantage of
a \"free\" tool?
People with $0 EDA budgets probably love it -- their time isn\'t worth
anything (to themselves) in the calculus. Likewise, people designing
little 2-4 layer boards.
OTOH, designing a *dense*, multilayer board may leave them wishing for a
more capable tool. Unless, of course, they don\'t care how many hours they
put into getting a finished product.
You know nothing about KiCAD but you are happy to diss it? Here you clearly
seem to be dissing the tool. Or maybe you just think nothing compares to
Orcad???
I said *nothing* that should have led you to think OrCAD is the
epitome of EDA tools.
> Are you actually saying anything at all?
Yes. See above.
In case you missed it, \"see above\".
If you have no IP, then it clearly doesn\'t pertain to you.
If you\'ve got a big roll of rubilyth in the back room and
an endless supply of xacto blades, then the featuresets of
all of these tools are unimportant to you.
So you don\'t like converting between systems. Who does?
If you\'re a HOBBYIST, then it\'s just a matter of whether or not you \"like
converting between systems\". If you\'re an employee, contractor or
businessman, then it\'s more than an issue of what you \"like\" and \"don\'t
like\". There are REAL dollars and market opportunities at stake.
I\'m a business person. I make millions from the designs I produce. That
doesn\'t mean I\'m not willing to look at new tools.
I have a life outside of designing kit. I want to spend the least
amount of time relearning yet another tool to do what a tool I
already have on hand does \"adequately\".
I don\'t continuously \"update\" existing tools just because a vendor offers
an upgrade -- free or not. Upgrading costs time and introduces risk
(what NEW bugs have been introduced? what old use patterns no longer
work as expected?)
But this is not
about maintaining the status quo really, its about the offer from Orcad
vs. KiCAD, so let\'s stick to the issues of the tools. I hope you
realize the world doesn\'t use Orcad exclusively. Not everyone would
have to convert from Orcad.
So, are we going to repeat this exercise for Mentor? Altium? Eagle?
DIPTrace? etc. Why don\'t you find a forum that spends its time
discussing those comparison OPINIONS. I suspect you\'ll come away with no
clear indication of which is \"better\" -- esp for YOUR particular needs.
What exercise are you talking about really? You seem to be making a huge
mountain out of a rather tiny molehill. I asked what Orcad can do that that
KiCAD doesn\'t and you seem to have turned this into a major assault on your
design process. Sorry I asked.
The exercise of comparing OrCAD to \"free\" KiCAD. Why limit your search to
an analysis of just those two tools (since you are so willing to explore new
tools!)?
If JM posts an offer for DIPTrace, will you ask \"What does DIPTrace offer that
KiCAD doesn\'t?\"
And not everyone would entertain a tool that has no \"paid support\". What
do you do when you need to get artwork out and there\'s no vendor with real
skin in the game?
What CAE vendor guarantees your tools will work when you need them to?
They are (financially) motivated to ensure I am happy with their tool.
I purchased the Advanced Modeling Extension for AutoCAD 11 (?) many
years ago. Two days later, I had uncovered a reproducible bug. My
\"rep\" doubted this: \"It\'s AUTOCAD!\" (good rep). A few days later,
I had an apology and a new copy of AutoCAD and AME that fixed the bug
(actually, an entire new retail package).
Assuming there was a 3D CAD FOSS product available at the time, do
I think anyone would have made my bug a priority?
Then you finish up with a mention of a feature found in Orcad without
even mentioning if it exists in KiCAD.
Wow! You would be one terrible salesman. I\'d be washing my hand after
you shook it, if I shook yours at all.
Why don\'t you just spend a few weeks using each and come to an answer for
yourself? That\'s how I evaluated each EDA, CAD, etc. tool that I
purchased. Playing with some contrived \"demo\" never shows you the issues
(costs) that YOU are likely to face.
Ages ago, I had a client who used Wintek (ick, ick, ick!). Do *I* want
to modify your existing design using that tool? No thanks -- maybe
someone else might, though!
Clearly if ANYONE offers their own PERSONAL take on THEIR experience with
a tool, you\'ll find some reason to dismiss it as being irrelevant to YOUR
particular needs. So, why bother?
There are lots of demo designs out there. Try to route each of them using
a variety of tools. Try building a new padstack. Try building a new
symbol. Try resolving a \"bug\" under a deadline schedule. Port one of
YOUR designs to a toolset and see how easily it migrates and how
effectively you can use that tool for your REAL problem.
Then, come up with your own appraisal of the tools.
We won\'t care.
Thanks for... well, nothing really. So why exactly did you post all this?
If you know nothing about KiCAD, why did you post at all?
Again, \"see above\".
If you are running KiCAD, then you\'ll discover there is a hidden (large)
cost to switching to OrCAD. Or DIPTrace. Or Eagle. Or...
So, if you\'re running KiCAD -- and it is sufficient to meet your design
needs -- then don\'t bother looking at OrCAD (unless you have lots of time
to waste on moving to a new tool -- why not spend even MORE money and
time and move to, for example, Altium?).
Oh, is it because you think nothing can compare to Orcad? Why didn\'t you
just say that you recommend Orcad? That would have been so much easier for
both of us.
*You* think I recommend OrCAD. Please find where *I* recommended it?
[I\'ve used probably a dozen EDA tools over the years and have very strong
opinions on each of their merits -- esp in the timeframes when they were
adopted. Hint: I\'m *not* using OrCAD in my current batch of designs!
And I\'m definitely not using KiCAD. It definitely doesn\'t offer me
anything that I don\'t already have MORE of!]
As I said, TRY each of them on a REAL design. Not some artificial design
that THEY concocted. You can look at a list of \"features\" and come away
with absolutely no understanding of how effectively any of those features
are implemented. (e.g., DASH-PCB could do SMT in the early 80\'s. OTOH,
if you actually tried to use it for an SMT design, you would discover lots
of warts that made it totally ineffective in that domain).
Good luck in your search!
R
Ricketty C
Guest
On Thursday, August 6, 2020 at 10:28:42 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
You are a strange duck. You literally can\'t see anything other than what is right in front of you. Wow!
I\'m glad I don\'t have to work with you.
--
Rick C.
-+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
-+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
On 8/6/2020 6:47 PM, Ricketty C wrote:
On Thursday, August 6, 2020 at 8:47:10 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
On 8/6/2020 5:07 PM, Ricketty C wrote:
On Thursday, August 6, 2020 at 7:16:26 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
On 8/6/2020 1:59 PM, Ricketty C wrote:
On Thursday, August 6, 2020 at 4:03:49 PM UTC-4, JM wrote:
On 06/08/2020 19:33, JM wrote:
Capture & PCB Editor perpetual licence - $530
https://www.ema-eda.com/offers/Purchase-OrCAD-Today
Offer applies to Europe as well...
What does Orcad have to offer that is not available in KiCAD?
As with any FOSS EDA package, the question to ask is \"where was <FOSS
package> 10 years ago? 20? 30?? 40??? And, what capabilities did
it have way-back-then?\"
If you\'re a hobbyist and don\'t have to worry about interfacing with
others in your \"organization\", or supporting designs (which includes
symbol and pad libraries) that may have been created 5-10 years ago --
then you have the freedom to choose damn near any tool that your heart
desires AND LIVE WITH ITS SHORTCOMINGS going forward.
OTOH, if you have a cache of existing designs (and corporate
standards) with which your NEW design has to seemlessly integrate,
then you may find yourself rebuilding symbol libraries in <new tool
instead of just adding one or two new symbols to the OLD library for
this new design.
I found OrCAD (Capture & Layout) to be tolerable tools. Like most
EDA tools, they have their quirks. But, do a couple of designs in
them and you learn what to avoid, which tricks to leverage, etc. At
the time, hot-probing schematic/PCB and seeing the corresponding
traces/signals in PCB/schematic was a delight. It\'s what originally
led me to using multiple monitors for my desktop (as a \"full screen\"
window for Capture AND Layout make much more sense than silly little
stacked windows into each!) But, I imagine this is old-hat for more
recent users.
[But, then again, I found DASH-STRIDES and DASH-PCB to be tolerable;
esp given the dearth of other affordable tools available on the PC
platform back then! Especially hierarchical design!]
That was a long post to say so little.
You start out talking about some sort of history lesson without
actually saying anything.
I said I enjoyed using OrCAD -- at the time THAT I WAS FORCED TO USE IT.
Just as I enjoyed using DASH-PCB -- when there were no other real
alternatives (I didn\'t want to buy a ComputerVision workstation!)
The implication of my past experience with COTS tools is that I am loath
to drop them -- and my experiences/support libraries with them -- in favor
of a zero-dollar tool that wasn\'t around when I needed it. What\'s the
upside -- for me -- to learn another set of bugs/features? Is KiCAD going
to enable me to design some board that I previously couldn\'t? No.
Ok, but your issues of what you are familiar with is not very relevant to
anyone else. I was trying to discuss the tool, not your level of comfort.
No one is trying to proselytize you.
It\'s relavent to ANYONE who has an IP invested in a particular tool.
That\'s the whole point of my post!
\"What does Orcad have to offer that is not available in KiCAD?\"
Ans: 100% compatibility with OTHER DESIGNS that you may have
in place using OrCAD.
IME, that\'s the biggest cost to using a tool. Do you want to
retweek your EXISTING schematic/parts library -- which already
WORKS for your <favorite> tool -- just to take advantage of
a \"free\" tool?
People with $0 EDA budgets probably love it -- their time isn\'t worth
anything (to themselves) in the calculus. Likewise, people designing
little 2-4 layer boards.
OTOH, designing a *dense*, multilayer board may leave them wishing for a
more capable tool. Unless, of course, they don\'t care how many hours they
put into getting a finished product.
You know nothing about KiCAD but you are happy to diss it? Here you clearly
seem to be dissing the tool. Or maybe you just think nothing compares to
Orcad???
I said *nothing* that should have led you to think OrCAD is the
epitome of EDA tools.
Are you actually saying anything at all?
Yes. See above.
In case you missed it, \"see above\".
If you have no IP, then it clearly doesn\'t pertain to you.
If you\'ve got a big roll of rubilyth in the back room and
an endless supply of xacto blades, then the featuresets of
all of these tools are unimportant to you.
So you don\'t like converting between systems. Who does?
If you\'re a HOBBYIST, then it\'s just a matter of whether or not you \"like
converting between systems\". If you\'re an employee, contractor or
businessman, then it\'s more than an issue of what you \"like\" and \"don\'t
like\". There are REAL dollars and market opportunities at stake.
I\'m a business person. I make millions from the designs I produce. That
doesn\'t mean I\'m not willing to look at new tools.
I have a life outside of designing kit. I want to spend the least
amount of time relearning yet another tool to do what a tool I
already have on hand does \"adequately\".
I don\'t continuously \"update\" existing tools just because a vendor offers
an upgrade -- free or not. Upgrading costs time and introduces risk
(what NEW bugs have been introduced? what old use patterns no longer
work as expected?)
But this is not
about maintaining the status quo really, its about the offer from Orcad
vs. KiCAD, so let\'s stick to the issues of the tools. I hope you
realize the world doesn\'t use Orcad exclusively. Not everyone would
have to convert from Orcad.
So, are we going to repeat this exercise for Mentor? Altium? Eagle?
DIPTrace? etc. Why don\'t you find a forum that spends its time
discussing those comparison OPINIONS. I suspect you\'ll come away with no
clear indication of which is \"better\" -- esp for YOUR particular needs.
What exercise are you talking about really? You seem to be making a huge
mountain out of a rather tiny molehill. I asked what Orcad can do that that
KiCAD doesn\'t and you seem to have turned this into a major assault on your
design process. Sorry I asked.
The exercise of comparing OrCAD to \"free\" KiCAD. Why limit your search to
an analysis of just those two tools (since you are so willing to explore new
tools!)?
If JM posts an offer for DIPTrace, will you ask \"What does DIPTrace offer that
KiCAD doesn\'t?\"
And not everyone would entertain a tool that has no \"paid support\". What
do you do when you need to get artwork out and there\'s no vendor with real
skin in the game?
What CAE vendor guarantees your tools will work when you need them to?
They are (financially) motivated to ensure I am happy with their tool.
I purchased the Advanced Modeling Extension for AutoCAD 11 (?) many
years ago. Two days later, I had uncovered a reproducible bug. My
\"rep\" doubted this: \"It\'s AUTOCAD!\" (good rep). A few days later,
I had an apology and a new copy of AutoCAD and AME that fixed the bug
(actually, an entire new retail package).
Assuming there was a 3D CAD FOSS product available at the time, do
I think anyone would have made my bug a priority?
Then you finish up with a mention of a feature found in Orcad without
even mentioning if it exists in KiCAD.
Wow! You would be one terrible salesman. I\'d be washing my hand after
you shook it, if I shook yours at all.
Why don\'t you just spend a few weeks using each and come to an answer for
yourself? That\'s how I evaluated each EDA, CAD, etc. tool that I
purchased. Playing with some contrived \"demo\" never shows you the issues
(costs) that YOU are likely to face.
Ages ago, I had a client who used Wintek (ick, ick, ick!). Do *I* want
to modify your existing design using that tool? No thanks -- maybe
someone else might, though!
Clearly if ANYONE offers their own PERSONAL take on THEIR experience with
a tool, you\'ll find some reason to dismiss it as being irrelevant to YOUR
particular needs. So, why bother?
There are lots of demo designs out there. Try to route each of them using
a variety of tools. Try building a new padstack. Try building a new
symbol. Try resolving a \"bug\" under a deadline schedule. Port one of
YOUR designs to a toolset and see how easily it migrates and how
effectively you can use that tool for your REAL problem.
Then, come up with your own appraisal of the tools.
We won\'t care.
Thanks for... well, nothing really. So why exactly did you post all this?
If you know nothing about KiCAD, why did you post at all?
Again, \"see above\".
If you are running KiCAD, then you\'ll discover there is a hidden (large)
cost to switching to OrCAD. Or DIPTrace. Or Eagle. Or...
So, if you\'re running KiCAD -- and it is sufficient to meet your design
needs -- then don\'t bother looking at OrCAD (unless you have lots of time
to waste on moving to a new tool -- why not spend even MORE money and
time and move to, for example, Altium?).
Oh, is it because you think nothing can compare to Orcad? Why didn\'t you
just say that you recommend Orcad? That would have been so much easier for
both of us.
*You* think I recommend OrCAD. Please find where *I* recommended it?
[I\'ve used probably a dozen EDA tools over the years and have very strong
opinions on each of their merits -- esp in the timeframes when they were
adopted. Hint: I\'m *not* using OrCAD in my current batch of designs!
And I\'m definitely not using KiCAD. It definitely doesn\'t offer me
anything that I don\'t already have MORE of!]
As I said, TRY each of them on a REAL design. Not some artificial design
that THEY concocted. You can look at a list of \"features\" and come away
with absolutely no understanding of how effectively any of those features
are implemented. (e.g., DASH-PCB could do SMT in the early 80\'s. OTOH,
if you actually tried to use it for an SMT design, you would discover lots
of warts that made it totally ineffective in that domain).
Good luck in your search!
You are a strange duck. You literally can\'t see anything other than what is right in front of you. Wow!
I\'m glad I don\'t have to work with you.
--
Rick C.
-+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
-+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
D
Don Y
Guest
On 8/6/2020 7:32 PM, Ricketty C wrote:
Amusing that you come to such conclusions (just like concluding that I was
recommending OrCAD). Delusional?
Have YOU looked at KiCAD? How often and over what period of time?
Have you looked at OrCAD? How often and over what period of time?
(Yet, I\'m *sure* you\'ve come to some conclusion/delusion as to the extent of
my activities in each of those situations)
> I\'m glad I don\'t have to work with you.
Yeah, *I* actually have to get things done -- instead of tinkering with
yet another tool that already does what \"mine\" does (to prove that I\'m
\"open\" to using new tools).
Perhaps you don\'t have enough WORK to keep you busy??
Or, maybe you enjoy repeating old exercises -- instead of broadening
your horizons (I\'m researching different approaches to providing high
availability RDBMS services and the consequences of each approach;
but, hey, maybe you already know how to do such things...)
Maybe you can find a tool written in FORTH -- \"the language of tomorrow,
yesterday\"!
Bye.
Good luck in your search!
You are a strange duck. You literally can\'t see anything other than what is right in front of you. Wow!
Amusing that you come to such conclusions (just like concluding that I was
recommending OrCAD). Delusional?
Have YOU looked at KiCAD? How often and over what period of time?
Have you looked at OrCAD? How often and over what period of time?
(Yet, I\'m *sure* you\'ve come to some conclusion/delusion as to the extent of
my activities in each of those situations)
> I\'m glad I don\'t have to work with you.
Yeah, *I* actually have to get things done -- instead of tinkering with
yet another tool that already does what \"mine\" does (to prove that I\'m
\"open\" to using new tools).
Perhaps you don\'t have enough WORK to keep you busy??
Or, maybe you enjoy repeating old exercises -- instead of broadening
your horizons (I\'m researching different approaches to providing high
availability RDBMS services and the consequences of each approach;
but, hey, maybe you already know how to do such things...)
Maybe you can find a tool written in FORTH -- \"the language of tomorrow,
yesterday\"!
Bye.