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Oddball use of Pryoelectric Device...

A

amdx

Guest
 The laser guys may have some experience with these.

I\'m wondering if a pyroelectric device can be hacked for use in a
Crystal radio?

 This paper started the thinking.

https://prod-ng.sandia.gov/techlib-noauth/access-control.cgi/2018/181510.pdf
They make very sensitive no power radios with them.
 The idea would be to mount a resistor on the pyro device and have it\'s
output modulated

at an audio frequency. The resistor would be heated by the current from
the LC tank connected to the antenna.

I don\'t know the response time of the device, the article suggests that
it will not respond to RF but will respond

to the base band, (audio), which it desirable.

There are many kinds of pyroelectric devices, some bare, others with
discrete Mosfet outputs and some with internal IC amplifiers.

Since crystal radios are supposed to be power free, we don\'t want to add
power for an amp, but we do have circuits the us a

mosfet without external power.

https://tinyurl.com/y4jgf22e
or
https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-a_N03XqRcpU/X3SpAd0O9VI/AAAAAAAADm0/X2uFjbcghPUugd88evTE1HVVCv1PrlR6QCLcBGAsYHQ/s2048/Screenshot%2B2020-09-30%2Bat%2B11.47.24%2BPM.png
                                          Mikek






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P

Phil Hobbs

Guest
On 10/25/20 1:39 PM, amdx wrote:
 The laser guys may have some experience with these.

I\'m wondering if a pyroelectric device can be hacked for use in a
Crystal radio?

 This paper started the thinking.

https://prod-ng.sandia.gov/techlib-noauth/access-control.cgi/2018/181510.pdf

They make very sensitive no power radios with them.

 The idea would be to mount a resistor on the pyro device and have it\'s
output modulated

at an audio frequency. The resistor would be heated by the current from
the LC tank connected to the antenna.

I don\'t know the response time of the device, the article suggests that
it will not respond to RF but will respond

to the base band, (audio), which it desirable.

There are many kinds of pyroelectric devices, some bare, others with
discrete Mosfet outputs and some with internal IC amplifiers.

Since crystal radios are supposed to be power free, we don\'t want to add
power for an amp, but we do have circuits the us a

mosfet without external power.

https://tinyurl.com/y4jgf22e
or
https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-a_N03XqRcpU/X3SpAd0O9VI/AAAAAAAADm0/X2uFjbcghPUugd88evTE1HVVCv1PrlR6QCLcBGAsYHQ/s2048/Screenshot%2B2020-09-30%2Bat%2B11.47.24%2BPM.png

                                          Mikek
It\'s an interesting idea. Seems like a bit of a cheat though--they\'re
using a super inefficient detection method to drive the gate of a FET,
which is super-high Z. That part is \'zero power\', but the FET needs a
power supply to be able to do anything at all.

A crystal set can drive headphones with no applied power at all.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

http://electrooptical.net
http://hobbs-eo.com
 
S

server

Guest
On Sun, 25 Oct 2020 18:05:53 -0400, Phil Hobbs
<pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

On 10/25/20 1:39 PM, amdx wrote:
 The laser guys may have some experience with these.

I\'m wondering if a pyroelectric device can be hacked for use in a
Crystal radio?

 This paper started the thinking.

https://prod-ng.sandia.gov/techlib-noauth/access-control.cgi/2018/181510.pdf

They make very sensitive no power radios with them.

 The idea would be to mount a resistor on the pyro device and have it\'s
output modulated

at an audio frequency. The resistor would be heated by the current from
the LC tank connected to the antenna.

I don\'t know the response time of the device, the article suggests that
it will not respond to RF but will respond

to the base band, (audio), which it desirable.

There are many kinds of pyroelectric devices, some bare, others with
discrete Mosfet outputs and some with internal IC amplifiers.

Since crystal radios are supposed to be power free, we don\'t want to add
power for an amp, but we do have circuits the us a

mosfet without external power.

https://tinyurl.com/y4jgf22e
or
https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-a_N03XqRcpU/X3SpAd0O9VI/AAAAAAAADm0/X2uFjbcghPUugd88evTE1HVVCv1PrlR6QCLcBGAsYHQ/s2048/Screenshot%2B2020-09-30%2Bat%2B11.47.24%2BPM.png

                                          Mikek

It\'s an interesting idea. Seems like a bit of a cheat though--they\'re
using a super inefficient detection method to drive the gate of a FET,
which is super-high Z. That part is \'zero power\', but the FET needs a
power supply to be able to do anything at all.

A crystal set can drive headphones with no applied power at all.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs
A good crystal set in a big city near some 50KW stations can be
unbearably loud.

I recall one crystal set design that captured all the unwanted
stations to make power to amplify the selected one.

I\'d expect that a diode receiver could power an LED pretty well.
That\'s an interesting matching problem.





--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

Science teaches us to doubt.

Claude Bernard
 
A

amdx

Guest
On 10/25/2020 5:05 PM, Phil Hobbs wrote:
On 10/25/20 1:39 PM, amdx wrote:
  The laser guys may have some experience with these.

I\'m wondering if a pyroelectric device can be hacked for use in a
Crystal radio?

  This paper started the thinking.

https://prod-ng.sandia.gov/techlib-noauth/access-control.cgi/2018/181510.pdf

They make very sensitive no power radios with them.

  The idea would be to mount a resistor on the pyro device and have
it\'s output modulated

at an audio frequency. The resistor would be heated by the current
from the LC tank connected to the antenna.

I don\'t know the response time of the device, the article suggests
that it will not respond to RF but will respond

to the base band, (audio), which it desirable.

There are many kinds of pyroelectric devices, some bare, others with
discrete Mosfet outputs and some with internal IC amplifiers.

Since crystal radios are supposed to be power free, we don\'t want to
add power for an amp, but we do have circuits the us a

mosfet without external power.

https://tinyurl.com/y4jgf22e
or
https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-a_N03XqRcpU/X3SpAd0O9VI/AAAAAAAADm0/X2uFjbcghPUugd88evTE1HVVCv1PrlR6QCLcBGAsYHQ/s2048/Screenshot%2B2020-09-30%2Bat%2B11.47.24%2BPM.png

                                           Mikek

It\'s an interesting idea.  Seems like a bit of a cheat though--they\'re
using a super inefficient detection method to drive the gate of a FET,
which is super-high Z.  That part is \'zero power\', but the FET needs a
power supply to be able to do anything at all.

A crystal set can drive headphones with no applied power at all.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs
 Yes, I don\'t get the zero power and then show an open drain as the
output, at least in the patent.

Figure 4.

https://tinyurl.com/y4odws4v
OR
https://pdfpiw.uspto.gov/.piw?PageNum=0&docid=09460321&IDKey=704A9A2D61BC%0D%0A&HomeUrl=http%3A%2F%2Fpatft.uspto.gov%2Fnetacgi%2Fnph-Parser%3FSect1%3DPTO2%2526Sect2%3DHITOFF%2526p%3D1%2526u%3D%25252Fnetahtml%25252FPTO%25252Fsearch-adv.htm%2526r%3D1%2526f%3DG%2526l%3D50%2526d%3DPTXT%2526S1%3D7%2C397%2C301%2526OS%3D7%2C397%2C301%2526RS%3D7%2C397%2C301
The impedances are wrong for a crystal radio, a high quality, High Q
tank circuit can approach 1MΩ, so that is wrong for driving a 50Ω or 73Ω
resistor to heat the pyro device.

Obviously ways to get a better match.

 Figure 5 of the patent has two different pyro devices, one 50Ω input
and 1.8kΩ output, Voltage Gain=35 the other 1.8kΩ input and 10Ω output,
Voltage Gain=5E+9.

That is an extreme gain range or a misprint, can someone explain the
Voltage Gain = 5E+9? Is that possible?

                                   Thank Mikek



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L

LM

Guest
On Sun, 25 Oct 2020 12:39:50 -0500, amdx <amdx@knology.net> wrote:

 The laser guys may have some experience with these.

I\'m wondering if a pyroelectric device can be hacked for use in a
Crystal radio?

 This paper started the thinking.

https://prod-ng.sandia.gov/techlib-noauth/access-control.cgi/2018/181510.pdf
They make very sensitive no power radios with them.

 The idea would be to mount a resistor on the pyro device and have it\'s
output modulated

at an audio frequency. The resistor would be heated by the current from
the LC tank connected to the antenna.

I don\'t know the response time of the device, the article suggests that
it will not respond to RF but will respond

to the base band, (audio), which it desirable.

There are many kinds of pyroelectric devices, some bare, others with
discrete Mosfet outputs and some with internal IC amplifiers.

Since crystal radios are supposed to be power free, we don\'t want to add
power for an amp, but we do have circuits the us a

mosfet without external power.

https://tinyurl.com/y4jgf22e
or
https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-a_N03XqRcpU/X3SpAd0O9VI/AAAAAAAADm0/X2uFjbcghPUugd88evTE1HVVCv1PrlR6QCLcBGAsYHQ/s2048/Screenshot%2B2020-09-30%2Bat%2B11.47.24%2BPM.png
                                          Mikek
Free energy. Rumour says that a long \"short\" wave antenna gives out 1
watt of total power.
 
J

Joe Gwinn

Guest
On Sun, 25 Oct 2020 16:20:54 -0700, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com
wrote:

On Sun, 25 Oct 2020 18:05:53 -0400, Phil Hobbs
pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

On 10/25/20 1:39 PM, amdx wrote:
 The laser guys may have some experience with these.

I\'m wondering if a pyroelectric device can be hacked for use in a
Crystal radio?

 This paper started the thinking.

https://prod-ng.sandia.gov/techlib-noauth/access-control.cgi/2018/181510.pdf

They make very sensitive no power radios with them.

 The idea would be to mount a resistor on the pyro device and have it\'s
output modulated

at an audio frequency. The resistor would be heated by the current from
the LC tank connected to the antenna.

I don\'t know the response time of the device, the article suggests that
it will not respond to RF but will respond

to the base band, (audio), which it desirable.

There are many kinds of pyroelectric devices, some bare, others with
discrete Mosfet outputs and some with internal IC amplifiers.

Since crystal radios are supposed to be power free, we don\'t want to add
power for an amp, but we do have circuits the us a

mosfet without external power.

https://tinyurl.com/y4jgf22e
or
https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-a_N03XqRcpU/X3SpAd0O9VI/AAAAAAAADm0/X2uFjbcghPUugd88evTE1HVVCv1PrlR6QCLcBGAsYHQ/s2048/Screenshot%2B2020-09-30%2Bat%2B11.47.24%2BPM.png

                                          Mikek

It\'s an interesting idea. Seems like a bit of a cheat though--they\'re
using a super inefficient detection method to drive the gate of a FET,
which is super-high Z. That part is \'zero power\', but the FET needs a
power supply to be able to do anything at all.

A crystal set can drive headphones with no applied power at all.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

A good crystal set in a big city near some 50KW stations can be
unbearably loud.

I recall one crystal set design that captured all the unwanted
stations to make power to amplify the selected one.

I\'d expect that a diode receiver could power an LED pretty well.
That\'s an interesting matching problem.
My guess is that they are useing the substrate diode to rectify the
incoming RF (all bands) to power the MOSFET amp in triode mode.

As for Sandia, I guess this is intended for use at Teraherts
frequencies, where diodes are difficult.

Joe Gwinn
 
A

amdx

Guest
On 10/26/2020 11:20 AM, LM wrote:
On Sun, 25 Oct 2020 12:39:50 -0500, amdx <amdx@knology.net> wrote:

 The laser guys may have some experience with these.

I\'m wondering if a pyroelectric device can be hacked for use in a
Crystal radio?

 This paper started the thinking.

https://prod-ng.sandia.gov/techlib-noauth/access-control.cgi/2018/181510.pdf
They make very sensitive no power radios with them.

 The idea would be to mount a resistor on the pyro device and have it\'s
output modulated

at an audio frequency. The resistor would be heated by the current from
the LC tank connected to the antenna.

I don\'t know the response time of the device, the article suggests that
it will not respond to RF but will respond

to the base band, (audio), which it desirable.

There are many kinds of pyroelectric devices, some bare, others with
discrete Mosfet outputs and some with internal IC amplifiers.

Since crystal radios are supposed to be power free, we don\'t want to add
power for an amp, but we do have circuits the us a

mosfet without external power.

https://tinyurl.com/y4jgf22e
or
https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-a_N03XqRcpU/X3SpAd0O9VI/AAAAAAAADm0/X2uFjbcghPUugd88evTE1HVVCv1PrlR6QCLcBGAsYHQ/s2048/Screenshot%2B2020-09-30%2Bat%2B11.47.24%2BPM.png
                                          Mikek
Free energy. Rumour says that a long \"short\" wave antenna gives out 1
watt of total power.
Hmm, RCA had a 9 mile long beverage antenna in 1921, It may have
produced a watt in today\'s RF filled environment.

 But, with a quick search, the highest I can find is about 10uW output.

Mikek


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L

Lasse Langwadt Christensen

Guest
mandag den 26. oktober 2020 kl. 00.21.07 UTC+1 skrev jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com:
On Sun, 25 Oct 2020 18:05:53 -0400, Phil Hobbs
pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

On 10/25/20 1:39 PM, amdx wrote:
 The laser guys may have some experience with these.

I\'m wondering if a pyroelectric device can be hacked for use in a
Crystal radio?

 This paper started the thinking.

https://prod-ng.sandia.gov/techlib-noauth/access-control.cgi/2018/181510.pdf

They make very sensitive no power radios with them.

 The idea would be to mount a resistor on the pyro device and have it\'s
output modulated

at an audio frequency. The resistor would be heated by the current from
the LC tank connected to the antenna.

I don\'t know the response time of the device, the article suggests that
it will not respond to RF but will respond

to the base band, (audio), which it desirable.

There are many kinds of pyroelectric devices, some bare, others with
discrete Mosfet outputs and some with internal IC amplifiers.

Since crystal radios are supposed to be power free, we don\'t want to add
power for an amp, but we do have circuits the us a

mosfet without external power.

https://tinyurl.com/y4jgf22e
or
https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-a_N03XqRcpU/X3SpAd0O9VI/AAAAAAAADm0/X2uFjbcghPUugd88evTE1HVVCv1PrlR6QCLcBGAsYHQ/s2048/Screenshot%2B2020-09-30%2Bat%2B11.47.24%2BPM.png

                                          Mikek

It\'s an interesting idea. Seems like a bit of a cheat though--they\'re
using a super inefficient detection method to drive the gate of a FET,
which is super-high Z. That part is \'zero power\', but the FET needs a
power supply to be able to do anything at all.

A crystal set can drive headphones with no applied power at all.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

A good crystal set in a big city near some 50KW stations can be
unbearably loud.

I recall one crystal set design that captured all the unwanted
stations to make power to amplify the selected one.

I\'d expect that a diode receiver could power an LED pretty well.
That\'s an interesting matching problem.
http://www.global-b2b-network.com/b2b/88/89/1353/page2/243694/flashing_sticker.html
 
A

amdx

Guest
On 10/26/2020 7:31 AM, amdx wrote:
On 10/25/2020 5:05 PM, Phil Hobbs wrote:
On 10/25/20 1:39 PM, amdx wrote:
  The laser guys may have some experience with these.

I\'m wondering if a pyroelectric device can be hacked for use in a
Crystal radio?

  This paper started the thinking.

https://prod-ng.sandia.gov/techlib-noauth/access-control.cgi/2018/181510.pdf

They make very sensitive no power radios with them.

  The idea would be to mount a resistor on the pyro device and have
it\'s output modulated

at an audio frequency. The resistor would be heated by the current
from the LC tank connected to the antenna.

I don\'t know the response time of the device, the article suggests
that it will not respond to RF but will respond

to the base band, (audio), which it desirable.

There are many kinds of pyroelectric devices, some bare, others with
discrete Mosfet outputs and some with internal IC amplifiers.

Since crystal radios are supposed to be power free, we don\'t want to
add power for an amp, but we do have circuits the us a

mosfet without external power.

https://tinyurl.com/y4jgf22e
or
https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-a_N03XqRcpU/X3SpAd0O9VI/AAAAAAAADm0/X2uFjbcghPUugd88evTE1HVVCv1PrlR6QCLcBGAsYHQ/s2048/Screenshot%2B2020-09-30%2Bat%2B11.47.24%2BPM.png

                                           Mikek

It\'s an interesting idea.  Seems like a bit of a cheat
though--they\'re using a super inefficient detection method to drive
the gate of a FET, which is super-high Z.  That part is \'zero power\',
but the FET needs a power supply to be able to do anything at all.

A crystal set can drive headphones with no applied power at all.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

 Yes, I don\'t get the zero power and then show an open drain as the
output, at least in the patent.

Figure 4.

https://tinyurl.com/y4odws4v
OR
https://pdfpiw.uspto.gov/.piw?PageNum=0&docid=09460321&IDKey=704A9A2D61BC%0D%0A&HomeUrl=http%3A%2F%2Fpatft.uspto.gov%2Fnetacgi%2Fnph-Parser%3FSect1%3DPTO2%2526Sect2%3DHITOFF%2526p%3D1%2526u%3D%25252Fnetahtml%25252FPTO%25252Fsearch-adv.htm%2526r%3D1%2526f%3DG%2526l%3D50%2526d%3DPTXT%2526S1%3D7%2C397%2C301%2526OS%3D7%2C397%2C301%2526RS%3D7%2C397%2C301


The impedances are wrong for a crystal radio, a high quality, High Q
tank circuit can approach 1MΩ, so that is wrong for driving a 50Ω or
73Ω resistor to heat the pyro device.

Obviously ways to get a better match.

 Figure 5 of the patent has two different pyro devices, one 50Ω input
and 1.8kΩ output, Voltage Gain=35 the other 1.8kΩ input and 10Ω
output, Voltage Gain=5E+9.

That is an extreme gain range or a misprint, can someone explain the
Voltage Gain = 5E+9? Is that possible?

                                   Thank Mike
 I received a correction, the second device I listed, has a 1.8kΩ input
and a 10^13 Ω output, now Gain=5E+9 makes more sense.

                                                          Mikek


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A

amdx

Guest
On 10/25/2020 5:05 PM, Phil Hobbs wrote:
On 10/25/20 1:39 PM, amdx wrote:
  The laser guys may have some experience with these.

I\'m wondering if a pyroelectric device can be hacked for use in a
Crystal radio?

  This paper started the thinking.

https://prod-ng.sandia.gov/techlib-noauth/access-control.cgi/2018/181510.pdf

They make very sensitive no power radios with them.

  The idea would be to mount a resistor on the pyro device and have
it\'s output modulated

at an audio frequency. The resistor would be heated by the current
from the LC tank connected to the antenna.

I don\'t know the response time of the device, the article suggests
that it will not respond to RF but will respond

to the base band, (audio), which it desirable.

There are many kinds of pyroelectric devices, some bare, others with
discrete Mosfet outputs and some with internal IC amplifiers.

Since crystal radios are supposed to be power free, we don\'t want to
add power for an amp, but we do have circuits the us a

mosfet without external power.

https://tinyurl.com/y4jgf22e
or
https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-a_N03XqRcpU/X3SpAd0O9VI/AAAAAAAADm0/X2uFjbcghPUugd88evTE1HVVCv1PrlR6QCLcBGAsYHQ/s2048/Screenshot%2B2020-09-30%2Bat%2B11.47.24%2BPM.png

                                           Mikek

It\'s an interesting idea.  Seems like a bit of a cheat though--they\'re
using a super inefficient detection method to drive the gate of a FET,
which is super-high Z.  That part is \'zero power\', but the FET needs a
power supply to be able to do anything at all.

A crystal set can drive headphones with no applied power at all.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs
 I ask for info from GENTEC ELECTRO-OPTICS, Inc. I got a helpful letter
and a quote of $450 for one
QS2-IL Hybrid pyroelectric sensor with metallic coating. Low noise level

That\'s right at 100 times more than I would spend.

Are all these type sensors that expensive?

Mikek






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This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
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P

Phil Hobbs

Guest
On 11/2/20 4:56 PM, amdx wrote:
On 10/25/2020 5:05 PM, Phil Hobbs wrote:
On 10/25/20 1:39 PM, amdx wrote:
  The laser guys may have some experience with these.

I\'m wondering if a pyroelectric device can be hacked for use in a
Crystal radio?

  This paper started the thinking.

https://prod-ng.sandia.gov/techlib-noauth/access-control.cgi/2018/181510.pdf

They make very sensitive no power radios with them.

  The idea would be to mount a resistor on the pyro device and have
it\'s output modulated

at an audio frequency. The resistor would be heated by the current
from the LC tank connected to the antenna.

I don\'t know the response time of the device, the article suggests
that it will not respond to RF but will respond

to the base band, (audio), which it desirable.

There are many kinds of pyroelectric devices, some bare, others with
discrete Mosfet outputs and some with internal IC amplifiers.

Since crystal radios are supposed to be power free, we don\'t want to
add power for an amp, but we do have circuits the us a

mosfet without external power.

https://tinyurl.com/y4jgf22e
or
https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-a_N03XqRcpU/X3SpAd0O9VI/AAAAAAAADm0/X2uFjbcghPUugd88evTE1HVVCv1PrlR6QCLcBGAsYHQ/s2048/Screenshot%2B2020-09-30%2Bat%2B11.47.24%2BPM.png

                                           Mikek

It\'s an interesting idea.  Seems like a bit of a cheat though--they\'re
using a super inefficient detection method to drive the gate of a FET,
which is super-high Z.  That part is \'zero power\', but the FET needs a
power supply to be able to do anything at all.

A crystal set can drive headphones with no applied power at all.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

 I ask for info from GENTEC ELECTRO-OPTICS, Inc. I got a helpful letter
and a quote of $450 for one
QS2-IL Hybrid pyroelectric sensor with metallic coating. Low noise level

That\'s right at 100 times more than I would spend.

Are all these type sensors that expensive?
Not always. 20 years ago I did a 96-pixel pyroelectric camera with
competitive sensitivity (0.13K NEdeltaT) using screen-printed carbon ink
on a 9-um thick free-standing film of PDVF (fluorinated Saran Wrap) plus
100 or so ordinary display LEDs.

<https://electrooptical.net/static/media/uploads/Projects/Footprints/fpwaropn.pdf>
<https://electrooptical.net/static/media/uploads/Projects/Footprints/fpspie11.pdf>

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

http://electrooptical.net
http://hobbs-eo.com
 
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