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Lead acid battery charger (or alternator) switching to trick

C

Commander Kinsey

Guest
How does a lead acid battery charger (or car alternator) know when to switch to trickle charge? I can understand it noticing a drop in charging current if the battery is on its own, but what if a random changing load is connected, as there is in a running car?
 
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Guest
On 2019-06-21 1:19 p.m., Commander Kinsey wrote:
How does a lead acid battery charger (or car alternator) know when to
switch to trickle charge?  I can understand it noticing a drop in
charging current if the battery is on its own, but what if a random
changing load is connected, as there is in a running car?
the catalytic converter tells it
 
P

Peeler

Guest
On Fri, 21 Jun 2019 21:19:05 +0100, Birdbrain Macaw (aka "Commander Kinsey",
"James Wilkinson", "Steven Wanker","Bruce Farquar", "Fred Johnson, etc.),
the pathological resident idiot and attention whore of all the uk ngs,
blathered again:

<FLUSH the sociopathic wanker's latest attention-baiting idiotic bullshit
unread again>


--
damduck-egg@yahoo.co.uk about Birdbrain Macaw's (now "James Wilkinson" LOL)
trolling:
"He is a well known attention seeking troll and every reply you
make feeds him.
Starts many threads most of which die quick as on the UK groups anyone
with sense Kill filed him ages ago which is why he now cross posts to
the US groups for a new audience.
This thread was unusual in that it derived and continued without him
to a large extent and his silly questioning is an attempt to get
noticed again."
MID: <be195d5jh0hktj054mvfu7ef9ap854mjdb@4ax.com>

--
ItsJoanNotJoann addressing Birdbrain Macaw's (now "James Wilkinson" LOL):
"You're an annoying troll and I'm done with you and your
stupidity."
MID: <e39a6a7f-9677-4e78-a866-0590fe5bbc38@googlegroups.com>

--
AndyW addressing Birdbrain:
"Troll or idiot?...
You have been presented with a viewpoint with information, reasoning,
historical cases, citations and references to back it up and wilfully
ignore all going back to your idea which has no supporting information."
MID: <KaToA.263621$g93.262397@fx10.am4>

--
Phil Lee adressing Birdbrain Macaw:
"You are too stupid to be wasting oxygen."
MID: <uv2u4clurscpat3g29l7aksbohsassufe2@4ax.com>

--
Phil Lee describing Birdbrain Macaw:
"I've never seen such misplaced pride in being a fucking moronic motorist."
MID: <j7fb6ct83igfd1g99rmu4gh9vf610ra3jk@4ax.com>

--
Tony944 addressing Birdbrain Macaw:
"I seen and heard many people but you are on top of list being first class
ass hole jerk. ...You fit under unconditional Idiot and should be put in
mental institution.
MID: <VLCdnYC5HK1Z4S3FnZ2dnUU7-dPNnZ2d@giganews.com>

--
Pelican to Birdbrain Macaw:
"Ok. I'm persuaded . You are an idiot."
MID: <obru31$nao$3@dont-email.me>

--
DerbyDad03 addressing Birdbrain Macaw (now "James Wilkinson" LOL):
"Frigging Idiot. Get the hell out of my thread."
MID: <4d907253-b3b9-40d4-be4d-b32d453937e0@googlegroups.com>

--
Kerr Mudd-John about Birdbrain Macaw (now "James Wilkinson" LOL):
"It's like arguing with a demented frog."
MID: <op.yy3c02cqmsr2db@dell3100.workgroup>

--
Mr Pounder Esquire about Birdbrain Macaw (now "James Wilkinson" LOL):
"the piss poor delivery boy with no hot running water, 11 cats and
several parrots living in his hovel."
MID: <odqtgc$iug$1@dont-email.me>

--
Rob Morley about Birdbrain:
"He's a perennial idiot"
MID: <20170519215057.56a1f1d4@Mars>

--
JoeyDee to Birdbrain
"I apologize for thinking you were a jerk. You're just someone with an IQ
lower than your age, and I accept that as a reason for your comments."
MID: <0001HW.1EE2D20300E7BECC700004A512CF@news.eternal-september.org>

--
Sam Plusnet about Birdbrain (now "James Wilkinson Sword" LOL):
"He's just desperate to be noticed. Any attention will do, no matter how
negative it may be."
MID: <rOmdndd_O7u8iK7EnZ2dnUU78TGdnZ2d@brightview.co.uk>

--
thekmanrocks@gmail.com asking Birdbrain:
"What, were you dropped on your head as a child?"
MID: <58ddfad5-d9a5-4031-b91f-1850245a6ed9@googlegroups.com>

--
Christie addressing endlessly driveling Birdbrain Macaw (now "James
Wilkinson" LOL):
"What are you resurrecting that old post of mine for? It's from last
month some time. You're like a dog who's just dug up an old bone they
hid in the garden until they were ready to have another go at it."
MID: <59d8b0db.4113512@news.eternal-september.org>

--
Mr Pounder's fitting description of Birdbrain Macaw:
"You are a well known fool, a tosser, a pillock, a stupid unemployable
sponging failure who will always live alone and will die alone. You will not
be missed."
MID: <orree6$on2$1@dont-email.me>

--
Richard to pathetic wanker Hucker:
"You haven't bred?
Only useful thing you've done in your pathetic existence."
MID: <orvctf$l5m$1@gioia.aioe.org>

--
clare@snyder.on.ca about Birdbrain (now "James Wilkinson" LOL):
""not the sharpest knife in the drawer"'s parents sure made a serious
mistake having him born alive -- A total waste of oxygen, food, space,
and bandwidth."
MID: <s5e9uclqpnabtehehg3d792tmll73se0g8@4ax.com>

--
Mr Pounder exposing sociopathic Birdbrain:
"You will always be a lonely sociopath living in a shithole with no hot
running water with loads of stinking cats and a few parrots."
MID: <os5m1i$8m1$1@dont-email.me>

--
francis about Birdbrain (now "James Wilkinson" LOL):
"He seems to have a reputation as someone of limited intelligence"
MID: <cf06cdd9-8bb8-469c-800a-0dfa4c2f9ffa@googlegroups.com>

--
Peter Moylan about Birdbrain (now "James Wilkinson" LOL):
"If people like JWS didn't exist, we would have to find some other way to
explain the concept of "invincible ignorance"."
MID: <otofc8$tbg$2@dont-email.me>

--
Lewis about nym-shifting Birdbrain:
"Typical narcissist troll, thinks his shit is so grand he has the right to
try to force it on everyone."
MID: <slrnq16c27.1h4g.g.kreme@jaka.local>
 
R

Rod Speed

Guest
Commander Kinsey <CFKinsey@military.org.jp> wrote

How does a lead acid battery charger (or car alternator) know when to
switch to trickle charge?
From the current the battery takes.

I can understand it noticing a drop in charging current if the battery is
on its own, but what if a random changing load is connected, as there is
in a running car?
You just look at the current going to the battery. The variably
loads like with lights isnt supplied by the battery when the
engine is running, its supplied by the alternator.
 
C

Commander Kinsey

Guest
On Fri, 21 Jun 2019 21:54:38 +0100, Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote:

Commander Kinsey <CFKinsey@military.org.jp> wrote

How does a lead acid battery charger (or car alternator) know when to
switch to trickle charge?

From the current the battery takes.

I can understand it noticing a drop in charging current if the battery is
on its own, but what if a random changing load is connected, as there is
in a running car?

You just look at the current going to the battery. The variably
loads like with lights isnt supplied by the battery when the
engine is running, its supplied by the alternator.
But how can the regulator on the alternator possibly know the current it's passing to the battery is going into the battery and not going straight across to the lights? If you look at the battery in your car, there are two or three thick wires coming off each terminal. One will go to the alternator, another to the fusebox for all the lights etc. Unless there's some clever circuitry monitoring each battery wire individually and subtracting the currents, the alternator can't tell the difference between a battery taking 12 amps, and a battery taking 2 amps plus lights taking 10 amps. The second one requires switching to trickle charge, the first doesn't.
 
P

Peeler

Guest
On Sat, 22 Jun 2019 06:54:38 +1000, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:


You just look at the current going to the battery. The variably
loads like with lights isnt supplied by the battery when the
engine is running, its supplied by the alternator.
Does the unwashed Scottish wanker's taste THAT good, senile Rodent? He'll
certainly climax soon with your help, senile Ozzie cretin! LOL

--
MrTurnip@down.the.farm about senile Rot Speed:
"This is like having a conversation with someone with brain damage."
MID: <ps10v9$uo2$1@gioia.aioe.org>
 
C

Commander Kinsey

Guest
On Fri, 21 Jun 2019 22:18:56 +0100, trader_4 <trader4@optonline.net> wrote:

On Friday, June 21, 2019 at 4:54:51 PM UTC-4, Rod Speed wrote:
Commander Kinsey <CFKinsey@military.org.jp> wrote

How does a lead acid battery charger (or car alternator) know when to
switch to trickle charge?

From the current the battery takes.

Except that the alternator doesn't know how much current is going
into the battery and how much is being used to power the car.
At least not in any car I've had. The alternator is tied directly
to the battery and that common point supplies the car. The alternator
can't switch to trickle charge either. Every one I've seen, with
the car running normally, the voltage at the alternator/battery is
about 13.5 - 14V
I used to think the same, until someone in one of these newsgroups (on another topic about 6 months ago) said it drops the voltage or it would wear out the battery on long journeys. I tested my own car, by leaving the lights on for a bit, then starting it. The voltage was about 14.4. It dropped to 13.8 after the battery was filled up. The regulator must have detected the battery was full somehow and lowered the charging voltage.

Mind you after some googling, apparently a lead acid is happy being charged from 13.8 to 14.5 continuously. Although when I used to leave my car on a charger (an old Bradex car battery charger) at 14.5, it fucked the battery after a few months. Maybe 14.5 is only ok in a car alternator circuit, which isn't usually running 24 hours a day. I think I'll always make sure it's 13.8 if it's on charge all the time - my car tends to randomly lose battery power overnight (to the alarm I believe). I was just wondering if I bought an intelligent car battery charger, whether it would ever switch down to trickle if the alarm was sucking juice, as such a charger may not expect any load. I currently have it connected to a bench supply at 13.8.
 
M

Max Demian

Guest
On 21/06/2019 21:19, Commander Kinsey wrote:
How does a lead acid battery charger (or car alternator) know when to
switch to trickle charge?  I can understand it noticing a drop in
charging current if the battery is on its own, but what if a random
changing load is connected, as there is in a running car?
The voltage perhaps.

--
Max Demian
 
P

Peeler

Guest
On Fri, 21 Jun 2019 22:57:44 +0100, Max Demian, another brain dead,
troll-feeding senile asshole, blathered:


> The voltage perhaps.

What kind of a troll-feeding asshole are YOU?
 
C

Commander Kinsey

Guest
On Fri, 21 Jun 2019 22:57:44 +0100, Max Demian <max_demian@bigfoot.com> wrote:

On 21/06/2019 21:19, Commander Kinsey wrote:
How does a lead acid battery charger (or car alternator) know when to
switch to trickle charge? I can understand it noticing a drop in
charging current if the battery is on its own, but what if a random
changing load is connected, as there is in a running car?

The voltage perhaps.
Why would the voltage change? That's determined by the alternator or charger. Let's say the charger/alternator gives out 14.4V initially, to charge the battery quickly. It'll just sit at 14.4V forever, providing the charger can give out enough current to charge the slightly flat battery and power any connected loads. If the battery had no loads connected, it would take a lot less current when it became full, but the voltage would stay the same. If the charger monitored the current it was providing, how does it know if the battery is still charging at 10 amps, or if the battery is full and there's a 10 amp load?
 
R

Rod Speed

Guest
"Commander Kinsey" <CFKinsey@military.org.jp> wrote in message
news:eek:p.z3q6mue3wdg98l@desktop-ga2mpl8.lan...
On Fri, 21 Jun 2019 21:54:38 +0100, Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com
wrote:

Commander Kinsey <CFKinsey@military.org.jp> wrote

How does a lead acid battery charger (or car alternator) know when to
switch to trickle charge?

From the current the battery takes.

I can understand it noticing a drop in charging current if the battery
is
on its own, but what if a random changing load is connected, as there is
in a running car?

You just look at the current going to the battery. The variably
loads like with lights isnt supplied by the battery when the
engine is running, its supplied by the alternator.

But how can the regulator on the alternator possibly know the current it's
passing to the battery is going into the battery and not going straight
across to the lights?
The computer knows whats going to the battery and you can see that with an
ODB2 dongle.

If you look at the battery in your car, there are two or three thick wires
coming off each terminal. One will go to the alternator, another to the
fusebox for all the lights etc.
And it's the voltage across the one going from the alternator to the battery
that allows the computer to know how much current is going to the battery.

Unless there's some clever circuitry monitoring each battery wire
individually and subtracting the currents,
Yes there is, its called the computer.

the alternator can't tell the difference between a battery taking 12 amps,
and a battery taking 2 amps plus lights taking 10 amps.
But the computer can. And knows if the lights are on too.

> The second one requires switching to trickle charge, the first doesn't.
 
C

Commander Kinsey

Guest
On Sat, 22 Jun 2019 00:26:13 +0100, Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote:

"Commander Kinsey" <CFKinsey@military.org.jp> wrote in message
news:eek:p.z3rauixewdg98l@desktop-ga2mpl8.lan...
On Fri, 21 Jun 2019 23:39:34 +0100, Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com
wrote:



"Commander Kinsey" <CFKinsey@military.org.jp> wrote in message
news:eek:p.z3q6mue3wdg98l@desktop-ga2mpl8.lan...
On Fri, 21 Jun 2019 21:54:38 +0100, Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com
wrote:

Commander Kinsey <CFKinsey@military.org.jp> wrote

How does a lead acid battery charger (or car alternator) know when to
switch to trickle charge?

From the current the battery takes.

I can understand it noticing a drop in charging current if the battery
is
on its own, but what if a random changing load is connected, as there
is
in a running car?

You just look at the current going to the battery. The variably
loads like with lights isnt supplied by the battery when the
engine is running, its supplied by the alternator.

But how can the regulator on the alternator possibly know the current
it's
passing to the battery is going into the battery and not going straight
across to the lights?

The computer knows whats going to the battery and you can see that with
an ODB2 dongle.

My dongle only lists faults.

Because it's a steaming turd with wheels frog car.
Which should adhere to the fucking OBD standards according to the frog's own EU regs!!

And a very basic OBD reader I bought to determine why a warning light was on.

Most show all sorts of things.

If you look at the battery in your car, there are two or three thick
wires
coming off each terminal. One will go to the alternator, another to the
fusebox for all the lights etc.

And it's the voltage across the one going from the alternator to the
battery that allows the computer to know how much current is going to the
battery.

Bullshit.

We'll see...

How could it possibly know if the current flows into the battery or goes
to the other wire leading to the fusebox?

By measuring the voltage drop across those cables, stupid.

Unless there's some clever circuitry monitoring each
battery wire individually and subtracting the currents,

Yes there is, its called the computer.

So what happened with older cars before they did that?

The voltage across the battery changes as the battery is charged.
Wrong. Say the alternator can produce 14V at up to 50 amps. When the battery has been used to start the car and perhaps run some lights when the engine was off, it takes maybe 25A, and the voltage is 14V, regulated by the alternator's circuitry. When the battery becomes full, it takes only a fraction of an amp, but the voltage is still 14V. What needs to be measured is the current going into the battery, and that cannot be done by just measuring the current coming from the alternator, as that could also be going to lights, heaters, spark plugs, etc, etc.

the alternator can't tell the difference between a battery taking 12
amps,
and a battery taking 2 amps plus lights taking 10 amps.

But the computer can. And knows if the lights are on too.

The second one requires switching to trickle charge, the first doesn't.
 
C

Commander Kinsey

Guest
On Fri, 21 Jun 2019 23:57:52 +0100, Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote:

"Commander Kinsey" <CFKinsey@military.org.jp> wrote in message
news:eek:p.z3q9fvpjwdg98l@desktop-ga2mpl8.lan...
On Fri, 21 Jun 2019 22:57:44 +0100, Max Demian <max_demian@bigfoot.com
wrote:

On 21/06/2019 21:19, Commander Kinsey wrote:
How does a lead acid battery charger (or car alternator) know when to
switch to trickle charge? I can understand it noticing a drop in
charging current if the battery is on its own, but what if a random
changing load is connected, as there is in a running car?

The voltage perhaps.

Why would the voltage change?

That's the way batterys work, the battery voltage does change as its
charged.

That's determined by the alternator or charger.

Nope.
Yip. I can put any voltage I like across a battery's terminals. The battery then chooses how much current is drawn.

Let's say the charger/alternator gives out 14.4V initially, to charge the
battery quickly. It'll just sit at 14.4V forever, providing the charger
can give out enough current to charge the slightly flat battery and power
any connected loads.

Its more complicated than that with the current going to the battery and the
battery is charged.

If the battery had no loads connected, it would take a lot less current
when it became full, but the voltage would stay the same.

No it doesn't even with a very crude battery charger.
For example, I'm currently keeping my car's battery topped up with a bench supply overnight. It's set to 13.8V, with a current limiter only to prevent overloading the supply. The voltage stays at 13.8V all the time, sometimes 100mA is drawn, sometimes up to 4A. The only way I or the supply can tell the battery is full, is by the current dropping to 100mA. But it's actually always full, as when 4A is drawn, that's going to a load.

If the charger monitored the current it was providing, how does it know if
the battery is still charging at 10 amps, or if the battery is full and
there's a 10 amp load?

By checking the current actually being delivered to the battery.
I guess that may be true, if the car's computer has two ammeters and subtracts one from the other. But AFAIK, the alternator regulator only works by it's own current sensor. And that current could be going into the battery, or past it to the loads.
 
R

Rod Speed

Guest
"Commander Kinsey" <CFKinsey@military.org.jp> wrote in message
news:eek:p.z3rauixewdg98l@desktop-ga2mpl8.lan...
On Fri, 21 Jun 2019 23:39:34 +0100, Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com
wrote:



"Commander Kinsey" <CFKinsey@military.org.jp> wrote in message
news:eek:p.z3q6mue3wdg98l@desktop-ga2mpl8.lan...
On Fri, 21 Jun 2019 21:54:38 +0100, Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com
wrote:

Commander Kinsey <CFKinsey@military.org.jp> wrote

How does a lead acid battery charger (or car alternator) know when to
switch to trickle charge?

From the current the battery takes.

I can understand it noticing a drop in charging current if the battery
is
on its own, but what if a random changing load is connected, as there
is
in a running car?

You just look at the current going to the battery. The variably
loads like with lights isnt supplied by the battery when the
engine is running, its supplied by the alternator.

But how can the regulator on the alternator possibly know the current
it's
passing to the battery is going into the battery and not going straight
across to the lights?

The computer knows whats going to the battery and you can see that with
an ODB2 dongle.

My dongle only lists faults.
Because it's a steaming turd with wheels frog car.

Most show all sorts of things.

If you look at the battery in your car, there are two or three thick
wires
coming off each terminal. One will go to the alternator, another to the
fusebox for all the lights etc.

And it's the voltage across the one going from the alternator to the
battery
that allows the computer to know how much current is going to the
battery.

Bullshit.
We'll see...

How could it possibly know if the current flows into the battery or goes
to the other wire leading to the fusebox?
By measuring the voltage drop across those cables, stupid.

Unless there's some clever circuitry monitoring each
battery wire individually and subtracting the currents,

Yes there is, its called the computer.

So what happened with older cars before they did that?
The voltage across the battery changes as the battery is charged.

the alternator can't tell the difference between a battery taking 12
amps,
and a battery taking 2 amps plus lights taking 10 amps.

But the computer can. And knows if the lights are on too.

The second one requires switching to trickle charge, the first doesn't.
 
P

Peeler

Guest
On Sat, 22 Jun 2019 08:57:52 +1000, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

That's the way batterys work
That's the way how your and his trolling work, you senile asshole troll!

--
Bod addressing senile Rot:
"Rod, you have a sick twisted mind. I suggest you stop your mindless
and totally irresponsible talk. Your mouth could get you into a lot of
trouble."
Message-ID: <gfbb94Fb4a4U1@mid.individual.net>
 
R

Rod Speed

Guest
"Commander Kinsey" <CFKinsey@military.org.jp> wrote in message
news:eek:p.z3q9fvpjwdg98l@desktop-ga2mpl8.lan...
On Fri, 21 Jun 2019 22:57:44 +0100, Max Demian <max_demian@bigfoot.com
wrote:

On 21/06/2019 21:19, Commander Kinsey wrote:
How does a lead acid battery charger (or car alternator) know when to
switch to trickle charge? I can understand it noticing a drop in
charging current if the battery is on its own, but what if a random
changing load is connected, as there is in a running car?

The voltage perhaps.

Why would the voltage change?
That's the way batterys work, the battery voltage does change as its
charged.

> That's determined by the alternator or charger.

Nope.

Let's say the charger/alternator gives out 14.4V initially, to charge the
battery quickly. It'll just sit at 14.4V forever, providing the charger
can give out enough current to charge the slightly flat battery and power
any connected loads.
Its more complicated than that with the current going to the battery and the
battery is charged.

If the battery had no loads connected, it would take a lot less current
when it became full, but the voltage would stay the same.
No it doesn't even with a very crude battery charger.

If the charger monitored the current it was providing, how does it know if
the battery is still charging at 10 amps, or if the battery is full and
there's a 10 amp load?
By checking the current actually being delivered to the battery.
 
P

Peeler

Guest
On Sat, 22 Jun 2019 08:39:34 +1000, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:


> The computer knows

The troll knows how to bait all you senile assholes successfully, senile
asshole!

--
Sqwertz to Rot Speed:
"This is just a hunch, but I'm betting you're kinda an argumentative
asshole.
MID: <ev1p6ml7ywd5$.dlg@sqwertz.com>
 
C

Commander Kinsey

Guest
On Fri, 21 Jun 2019 23:39:34 +0100, Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote:

"Commander Kinsey" <CFKinsey@military.org.jp> wrote in message
news:eek:p.z3q6mue3wdg98l@desktop-ga2mpl8.lan...
On Fri, 21 Jun 2019 21:54:38 +0100, Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com
wrote:

Commander Kinsey <CFKinsey@military.org.jp> wrote

How does a lead acid battery charger (or car alternator) know when to
switch to trickle charge?

From the current the battery takes.

I can understand it noticing a drop in charging current if the battery
is
on its own, but what if a random changing load is connected, as there is
in a running car?

You just look at the current going to the battery. The variably
loads like with lights isnt supplied by the battery when the
engine is running, its supplied by the alternator.

But how can the regulator on the alternator possibly know the current it's
passing to the battery is going into the battery and not going straight
across to the lights?

The computer knows whats going to the battery and you can see that with an
ODB2 dongle.
My dongle only lists faults.

If you look at the battery in your car, there are two or three thick wires
coming off each terminal. One will go to the alternator, another to the
fusebox for all the lights etc.

And it's the voltage across the one going from the alternator to the battery
that allows the computer to know how much current is going to the battery.
Bullshit. How could it possibly know if the current flows into the battery or goes to the other wire leading to the fusebox?

Unless there's some clever circuitry monitoring each battery wire
individually and subtracting the currents,

Yes there is, its called the computer.
So what happened with older cars before they did that?

the alternator can't tell the difference between a battery taking 12 amps,
and a battery taking 2 amps plus lights taking 10 amps.

But the computer can. And knows if the lights are on too.

The second one requires switching to trickle charge, the first doesn't.
 
C

Colonel Edmund J. Burke

Guest
On 6/21/2019 1:19 PM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
> How does a lead acid battery charger (or car alternator) know when to switch to trickle charge?  I can understand it noticing a drop in charging current if the battery is on its own, but what if a random changing load is connected, as there is in a running car?

Alternators are not lead acid.
 
P

Peeler

Guest
On Sat, 22 Jun 2019 09:26:13 +1000, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

<FLUSH the two clinically insane asshole's latest trollshit unread>


--
Richard addressing Rot Speed:
"Shit you're thick/pathetic excuse for a troll."
MID: <ogoa38$pul$1@news.mixmin.net>
 
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