~~Juice~~

[Watson A.Name - \"Watt Su]

In my quest for juice (electric kind), I tried a few things.

I took a HDD apart and instead of removing the magnets, I left them in
their steel bracket assembly. I took the head assembly out and broke
off the heads, leaving the coil. I soldered some leads to the flex
printed circuit, and ran them several inches to a red LED. What's cool
is I can wiggle the coil in the magnet and it lights the LED brightly.
I get pulses of light when the head is moved in one direction. Man, I'm
making juice! )

Not very practical, tho. Then I got this idea from reading a science
fair project for grade school; I decided I would try to make juice with
a homemede battery. I cut off the bottom of a plastic bottle and I
filled it with water and white vinegar in 2:1 mix. I put a piece of
aluminum and a piece of copper into this, with leads attached to a DMM.
I can get about a half volt open circuit, and with the meter on current
range, it will give about 4 or 5mA of currnet thru the DMM. I'm
guessing that both voltage and current will be somewhat lower when a
load is put on it. I'm making more juice! But I'll have to put 3 or 4
of these cells in series to get enough power to do something useful.

My q is, what should I do to improve the cell's output? Should I change
from copper and aluminum to copper and zinc? Or some other metal? If
so, where do I get a nice piece of zinc? The size of the copper and
aluminum pieces is a few square inches. I guess using larger pieces
will give more current. But I'll have to put them in a bucket! What
kind of electrolyte should I use? Is there something better than
vinegar? I had thought about battery acid, but it's so nasty and eats
holes in everything. I have CuSO4 tree root killer crystals. I could
use that I suppose. But is there something other than lemon juice (used
in these science fair projects) that's a better choice? Thanks, I
guess. I may end up making a real mess!

--
@@F@r@o@m@@O@r@a@n@g@e@@C@o@u@n@t@y@,@@C@a@l@,@@w@h@e@r@e@@
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[tom]

Whatever voltage you get with one of these acid/metal layers, you can double
it by adding another layer and connecting the leads of opposite polarity,
triple it with 3 layers, quadruple it --- you get the idea. I have seen
this done, and it's really something, where some one did what you're talking
about but multiplied a couple hundred fold! The guy had like a 12 by 12 foot
area of floor covered with lemons and metal electrodes and ended up getting
a respectable voltage out of --- easily enough to light up small wattage
light bulb, or run a van de graaf generator. That would be impressive, a
van de graaf powered by a roomfull of lemons, with 6 inch long buzzing
sparks and stuff!
Try it ...
But remember the voltage can get high!

 

[John Woodgate]

I read in alt.binaries.schematics.electronic that tom <cyberhun@shaw.ca>
wrote (in <jnlYd.646194$6l.312559@pd7tw2no&gt about '~~Juice~~', on Fri,
11 Mar 2005:

Whatever voltage you get with one of these acid/metal layers, you can
double it by adding another layer and connecting the leads of opposite
polarity,

Only ONE pair, of course: ---|I---|I---|I---

triple it with 3 layers, quadruple it --- you get the idea. I
have seen this done, and it's really something, where some one did what
you're talking about but multiplied a couple hundred fold!

This is a VERY early source of electricity - a Voltaic pile. Used in WW2
to generate 2 kV or so for a hand-held infra-red night sight.

In UK, you can get sheet zinc from builders merchants as 'flashing'.
Lead flashing is no good, of course, for this sort of battery.

The device will only work if you draw very little current from it,
because it has no 'depolarizer' to scavenge the hydrogen gas produced in
operation.
--
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only.
The good news is that nothing is compulsory.
The bad news is that everything is prohibited.
http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Also see http://www.isce.org.uk

 

[Tim Williams]

"Watson A.Name - "Watt Sun, the Dark Remover"" <NOSPAM@dslextreme.com> wrote
in message news:1132geo1p7ls87e@corp.supernews.com...

My q is, what should I do to improve the cell's output? Should I change
from copper and aluminum to copper and zinc? Or some other metal?

Aluminum is passivated by its oxide layer, I'm not sure what voltage it
protects against ordinarily, but I'm sure it'll kind of hinder ions from
eating it.

In an electrochemical battery, the more reactive electrode is corroded away,
the reaction producing heat (inefficiency) and voltage.

Heavily ionized water is what you want, any mineral acid that doesn't
dissolve the plates will do. Since they do, a salt would be better used,
and any will work I think. NaCl, NaSO4, NH4Cl, etc. (The latter is used in
dry cells (zinc vs. carbon), as a hydrated mush with the MnO2 which oxidizes
hydrogen as it forms, preventing passivation. Spare MnO2 also makes a
smooth, slow burning thermite.

Tim

--
"California is the breakfast state: fruits, nuts and flakes."
Website: http://webpages.charter.net/dawill/tmoranwms

 

[Watson A.Name - \"Watt Su]

"tom" <cyberhun@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:jnlYd.646194$6l.312559@pd7tw2no...

Whatever voltage you get with one of these acid/metal layers, you can
double
it by adding another layer and connecting the leads of opposite
polarity,
triple it with 3 layers, quadruple it --- you get the idea. I have
seen
this done, and it's really something, where some one did what you're
talking
about but multiplied a couple hundred fold! The guy had like a 12 by
12 foot
area of floor covered with lemons and metal electrodes and ended up
getting
a respectable voltage out of --- easily enough to light up small
wattage
light bulb, or run a van de graaf generator. That would be
impressive, a
van de graaf powered by a roomfull of lemons, with 6 inch long buzzing
sparks and stuff!
Try it ...
But remember the voltage can get high!

You don't know what you're talking about. The lemon with a couple coins
stuck into it will only give a few hundreds of microamps, because
there's not enough surface area for the current. Same with potatoes.
No, it won't light up a light bulb or vanDeGraaf generator.

 

[tom]

No, you don't know what you're talking about. Try multiplying that a couple
hundred fold.

 

[tom]

You even said you get half a volt. Whats a half times 200? 100 volts.
Hello?

 

[Tim Williams]

"Watson A.Name - "Watt Sun, the Dark Remover"" <NOSPAM@dslextreme.com> wrote
in message news:1134p8epe6oi1ba@corp.supernews.com...

MnO2 which oxidizes
hydrogen as it forms, preventing passivation. Spare MnO2 also makes a
smooth, slow burning thermite.

Manganese? Or are you thinking of magnesium?

Y'mean thermite? Manganese is just below zinc in reactivity, which is just
below aluminum, hence it burns relatively slowly. Copper thermite I'm told
is a bit more exciting...
Magnesium is more reactive than aluminum, so thermite made with it burns
much faster. I'd hate to see silver oxide and magnesium )

Tim

--
"California is the breakfast state: fruits, nuts and flakes."
Website: http://webpages.charter.net/dawill/tmoranwms

 

[John Woodgate]

I read in alt.binaries.schematics.electronic that Tim Williams
<tmoranwms@charter.net> wrote (in <JWAYd.18532$oI5.13264@fe07.lga&gt
about '~~Juice~~', on Sat, 12 Mar 2005:

"Watson A.Name - "Watt Sun, the Dark Remover"" <NOSPAM@dslextreme.com> wrote
in message news:1134p8epe6oi1ba@corp.supernews.com...
MnO2 which oxidizes
hydrogen as it forms, preventing passivation. Spare MnO2 also makes a
smooth, slow burning thermite.

Manganese? Or are you thinking of magnesium?

Manganese dioxide takes the place of the ferric oxide in the standard
thermite mixture, not the aluminium dust.

Y'mean thermite? Manganese is just below zinc in reactivity, which is just
below aluminum, hence it burns relatively slowly. Copper thermite I'm told
is a bit more exciting...

Very green...

Magnesium is more reactive than aluminum, so thermite made with it burns
much faster. I'd hate to see silver oxide and magnesium )

Magnesium powder and sodium peroxide produced the only contretemps in my

dangerous chemical career. This combination is quite (well, fairly!) OK
when dry, but a drop of water....
--
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only.
The good news is that nothing is compulsory.
The bad news is that everything is prohibited.
http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Also see http://www.isce.org.uk

 

[Watson A.Name - \"Watt Su]

"Tim Williams" <tmoranwms@charter.net> wrote in message
news:9iZYd.1264$qb1.1103@fe04.lga...

"Watson A.Name - "Watt Sun, the Dark Remover"" <NOSPAM@dslextreme.com
wrote
in message news:11361r3l6g12nfa@corp.supernews.com...
Well, in the army, we sat in the bleachers and the instructor set
off a
(true powdered aluminum and iron oxide) thermite grenade on top of
an
engine block. THe thermite melted a 'waterfall' of iron down the
side
if the engine.

Hehe.

I've never heard of anything other than aluminum/iron
oxide being called thermite.

Oh, thermit[e] applies to any oxide reduced at very high temperatures
with a
more reactive metal. Popular choices are zinc, aluminum and magnesium
for
the reducer. Almost anything works for the other side, even sodium -
apparently you can make sodium metal with magnesium and lye through
such a
reaction. I'm not really sure how, I guess MgO is more stable than
Na2O or
NaOH so the reaction proceeds, whatever the reactivities.

When I was a member of this club (www.rrs.org check out some of the
videos) we used powdered zinc and sulfur to blast those little
rockets
up to around a mile or so altitude. The fuel burned in the first
1/3 of
a second, and the rest was just coasting. IIRC the burn rate is
hundreds of meters per second.

Heh heh.

They say 60% zinc and 40% sulfur here
http://www.etext.org/CuD/Misc/anarch
but IIRC we used 50/50 for the rockets.

Let's see, Zn + S = ZnS I would assume.
Zn = 65.4, S = 32, ZnS = 97.4. %wt = 67% Zn.

Both are normally reducers, an oxidizer, maybe KMnO4 could really get
that
kickin'. But then you get two seperate reactions, Zn > ZnO and S
SO2, not
really the triple threat you might expect.

IIRC, the big problems with these "RRS beta" rockets were that the Z and
S powder packed down so it had to be agitated before flight to fluff it
up and keep it from clumping, which messed up the burn rate. I guess
that's why Thiokol mixed the fuel with rubber. ;-)

And the aluminum tube that was essentially the whole rocket often became
a part of the reaction, the fuel burned thru the side and the rocket
lost acceleration - and it only went up a quarter mile or so.

Tim
--

 

[amdx]

My q is, what should I do to improve the cell's output? Should I change
from copper and aluminum to copper and zinc? Or some other metal? If
so, where do I get a nice piece of zinc? The size of the copper and
aluminum pieces is a few square inches. I guess using larger pieces
will give more current. But I'll have to put them in a bucket! What
kind of electrolyte should I use? Is there something better than
vinegar? I had thought about battery acid, but it's so nasty and eats
holes in everything. I have CuSO4 tree root killer crystals. I could
use that I suppose. But is there something other than lemon juice (used
in these science fair projects) that's a better choice? Thanks, I
guess. I may end up making a real mess!

You might find this interesting,
If you find a method to make a Dulac Dry Pile I'd like to know.


The DuLuc Dry Pile (c)1996 William J. Beaty



The Duluc Dry Pile (also called the Zamboni Pile) was an "electrostatic

battery" permanent power supply used in the early 1800s and constructed

from silver foil, zinc foil, and paper. Foil disks of 2cm dia. were

stacked up several thousand thick and then either compressed in a glass

tube with endcaps and a screw assembly, or stacked between three glass

rods with wooden endplates. Of course this is simply a Voltaic Pile, a

multi-cell electrochemical battery, albiet one with output potential in

the range of KILOVOLTS. Each cell used nearly-dry paper as electrolyte,

with zinc foil for one electrode and silver foil as the other.

You might find a diecutting printshop who might be able to turn

out the disks in large quantities. I suspect that zinc foil is hard to

find, but probably is not required. Perhaps aluminized paper and copper

foil, or even silver leaf paper can be obtained, then simply punched out

and stacked up. Or perhaps carbon paper can act as both electrolyte and

electrode, and use aluminum foil as the second electrode on each disk.



A 5ft dry pile should raise the hair of any who touch the end. Or a

shorter one could act as a "magic wand": hold one end, touch someone with

the other to charge them up, then touch their nose with your finger.

SNAP!



A book on the history of Perpetual Motion Machines showed photos of

"genuine" perpetual motion devices based on the Dry Pile. DuLuc's

version was composed of two series-connected Dry Piles operating a

pendulum electrostatic motor of the "Franklin's Bell" type. The drypile

stacks were of the 3-glass-rod variety, and had been insulated by dipping

in liquid sulfur (no plastics in 1806!) The device in the book is owned

by Dr. A.J. Croft of Oxford's Clarendon Lab. At the time of publication

of the book, this device had been tinkling away for over a century, and

the owner of the device mentioned that the clapper-bead was starting to

take on a distinct hourglass shape, and may need to be replaced in the

next few centuries! A second device by Zamboni was a perpetually rotating

"Franklin's wheel" electrostatic motor powered by two dry piles.

 

[Tim Williams]

"John Woodgate" <jmw@jmwa.demon.contraspam.yuk> wrote in message
news:I6z3IrDu0INCFwZN@jmwa.demon.co.uk...

I think I'd need to see that. Sodium *boils* at 900 C. And the energy
balance seems unlikely.

That was my thought, but apparently it's true.
http://www.destructve.com/bromicacid/experiments/december2003.htm

Both are normally reducers, an oxidizer,

No, in that system sulfur is an oxidizer.

Well yes, but on an absolute scale they both tend to reduce. You know what
I mean..

You are just DANGEROUS.(;-) KMnO4 looks pretty but it's POWERFUL, man!
That combination could even go bang if you stared hard at it.

Hehe ;-)

Reminds me, I need to get some, and glycerin, to light my thermite easier
than torching a chunk of magnesium into submission.

Tim

--
"California is the breakfast state: fruits, nuts and flakes."
Website: http://webpages.charter.net/dawill/tmoranwms

 

[Tim Williams]

"John Woodgate" <jmw@jmwa.demon.contraspam.yuk> wrote in message
news3NmrQBXdVNCFwoH@jmwa.demon.co.uk...

It *might* happen to some extent because the hydrogen escapes and that
would tend to drive the reaction to the right. However, I suspect that
atmospheric oxygen (and perhaps even nitrogen) participates:

2KOH + Mg + O2 -> K2O + MgO + H2O

Doubtful to me, since gas is escaping all the while. I don't know if K2O
burns in air, but K metal (still hot) certainly does.

I'm going to try sodium today, I'll report back on that.

I can't help feeling that Humphry Davy would have tried reduction with
Mg, before resorting to electrolysis of molten KOH.

I seem to recall Ca and Mg were prepared by processing oxides with sodium or
potassium and a mercury amalgam? The Hall cell wasn't invented yet at any
rate.

Tim

--
"California is the breakfast state: fruits, nuts and flakes."
Website: http://webpages.charter.net/dawill/tmoranwms

 

[Watson A.Name - \"Watt Su]

"Tim Williams" <tmoranwms@charter.net> wrote in message
news:JWAYd.18532$oI5.13264@fe07.lga...

"Watson A.Name - "Watt Sun, the Dark Remover"" <NOSPAM@dslextreme.com
wrote
in message news:1134p8epe6oi1ba@corp.supernews.com...
MnO2 which oxidizes
hydrogen as it forms, preventing passivation. Spare MnO2 also
makes a
smooth, slow burning thermite.

Manganese? Or are you thinking of magnesium?

Y'mean thermite? Manganese is just below zinc in reactivity, which is
just
below aluminum, hence it burns relatively slowly. Copper thermite I'm
told
is a bit more exciting...
Magnesium is more reactive than aluminum, so thermite made with it
burns
much faster. I'd hate to see silver oxide and magnesium )

Well, in the army, we sat in the bleachers and the instructor set off a
(true powdered aluminum and iron oxide) thermite grenade on top of an
engine block. THe thermite melted a 'waterfall' of iron down the side
if the engine. I've never heard of anything other than aluminum/iron
oxide being called thermite.

When I was a member of this club (www.rrs.org check out some of the
videos) we used powdered zinc and sulfur to blast those little rockets
up to around a mile or so altitude. The fuel burned in the first 1/3 of
a second, and the rest was just coasting. IIRC the burn rate is
hundreds of meters per second.

I've ground up magnesuim (actually filings) and mixed it with sulfur,
and it's more of an explosion.

They say 60% zinc and 40% sulfur here
http://www.etext.org/CuD/Misc/anarch
but IIRC we used 50/50 for the rockets.

Tim
--

 

[jim dorey]

On Thu, 10 Mar 2005 23:03:34 -0800, Watson A.Name - "Watt Sun, the Dark
Remover" <NOSPAM@dslextreme.com> wrote:

My q is, what should I do to improve the cell's output? Should I change
from copper and aluminum to copper and zinc? Or some other metal? If
so, where do I get a nice piece of zinc? The size of the copper and
aluminum pieces is a few square inches. I guess using larger pieces
will give more current. But I'll have to put them in a bucket! What
kind of electrolyte should I use? Is there something better than
vinegar? I had thought about battery acid, but it's so nasty and eats
holes in everything. I have CuSO4 tree root killer crystals. I could
use that I suppose. But is there something other than lemon juice (used
in these science fair projects) that's a better choice? Thanks, I
guess. I may end up making a real mess!

make sandwich of aluminum-foam-copper-foam, wind on round form, vinegar
should be fine.

--
Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/

 

[Watson A.Name - \"Watt Su]

"Tim Williams" <tmoranwms@charter.net> wrote in message
news:bIoYd.2357$xQ.251@fe03.lga...

"Watson A.Name - "Watt Sun, the Dark Remover"" <NOSPAM@dslextreme.com
wrote
in message news:1132geo1p7ls87e@corp.supernews.com...
My q is, what should I do to improve the cell's output? Should I
change
from copper and aluminum to copper and zinc? Or some other metal?

Aluminum is passivated by its oxide layer, I'm not sure what voltage
it
protects against ordinarily, but I'm sure it'll kind of hinder ions
from
eating it.

In an electrochemical battery, the more reactive electrode is corroded
away,
the reaction producing heat (inefficiency) and voltage.

Heavily ionized water is what you want, any mineral acid that doesn't
dissolve the plates will do. Since they do, a salt would be better
used,
and any will work I think. NaCl, NaSO4, NH4Cl, etc. (The latter is
used in
dry cells (zinc vs. carbon), as a hydrated mush with the MnO2 which
oxidizes
hydrogen as it forms, preventing passivation. Spare MnO2 also makes a
smooth, slow burning thermite.

Manganese? Or are you thinking of magnesium?

Tim

--

 

[Tim Williams]

"Watson A.Name - "Watt Sun, the Dark Remover"" <NOSPAM@dslextreme.com> wrote
in message news:11361r3l6g12nfa@corp.supernews.com...

Well, in the army, we sat in the bleachers and the instructor set off a
(true powdered aluminum and iron oxide) thermite grenade on top of an
engine block. THe thermite melted a 'waterfall' of iron down the side
if the engine.

Hehe.

I've never heard of anything other than aluminum/iron
oxide being called thermite.

Oh, thermit[e] applies to any oxide reduced at very high temperatures with a
more reactive metal. Popular choices are zinc, aluminum and magnesium for
the reducer. Almost anything works for the other side, even sodium -
apparently you can make sodium metal with magnesium and lye through such a
reaction. I'm not really sure how, I guess MgO is more stable than Na2O or
NaOH so the reaction proceeds, whatever the reactivities.

When I was a member of this club (www.rrs.org check out some of the
videos) we used powdered zinc and sulfur to blast those little rockets
up to around a mile or so altitude. The fuel burned in the first 1/3 of
a second, and the rest was just coasting. IIRC the burn rate is
hundreds of meters per second.

Heh heh.

They say 60% zinc and 40% sulfur here
http://www.etext.org/CuD/Misc/anarch
but IIRC we used 50/50 for the rockets.

Let's see, Zn + S = ZnS I would assume.
Zn = 65.4, S = 32, ZnS = 97.4. %wt = 67% Zn.

Both are normally reducers, an oxidizer, maybe KMnO4 could really get that
kickin'. But then you get two seperate reactions, Zn > ZnO and S > SO2, not
really the triple threat you might expect.

Tim

--
"California is the breakfast state: fruits, nuts and flakes."
Website: http://webpages.charter.net/dawill/tmoranwms

 

[John Woodgate]

I read in alt.binaries.schematics.electronic that Tim Williams
<tmoranwms@charter.net> wrote (in <9iZYd.1264$qb1.1103@fe04.lga&gt about
'~~Juice~~', on Sun, 13 Mar 2005:

applies to any oxide reduced at very high temperatures
with a more reactive metal.

Yes, just like 'Miller effect' applies to any capacitive feedback
case.(;-)

Popular choices are zinc, aluminum and
magnesium for the reducer. Almost anything works for the other side,
even sodium - apparently you can make sodium metal with magnesium and
lye through such a reaction. I'm not really sure how, I guess MgO is
more stable than Na2O or NaOH so the reaction proceeds, whatever the
reactivities.

I think I'd need to see that. Sodium *boils* at 900 C. And the energy
balance seems unlikely.

When I was a member of this club (www.rrs.org check out some of the
videos) we used powdered zinc and sulfur to blast those little rockets
up to around a mile or so altitude. The fuel burned in the first 1/3 of
a second, and the rest was just coasting. IIRC the burn rate is
hundreds of meters per second.

Heh heh.

They say 60% zinc and 40% sulfur here
http://www.etext.org/CuD/Misc/anarch
but IIRC we used 50/50 for the rockets.

Let's see, Zn + S = ZnS I would assume.
Zn = 65.4, S = 32, ZnS = 97.4. %wt = 67% Zn.

Both are normally reducers, an oxidizer,

No, in that system sulfur is an oxidizer.

maybe KMnO4 could really get
that kickin'. But then you get two seperate reactions, Zn > ZnO and S
SO2, not really the triple threat you might expect.

You are just DANGEROUS.(;-) KMnO4 looks pretty but it's POWERFUL, man!
That combination could even go bang if you stared hard at it.
--
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only.
The good news is that nothing is compulsory.
The bad news is that everything is prohibited.
http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Also see http://www.isce.org.uk

 

[John Woodgate]

I read in alt.binaries.schematics.electronic that Watson A.Name - "Watt
Sun, the Dark Remover" <NOSPAM@dslextreme.com> wrote (in <1138qjuiq56poe
8@corp.supernews.com&gt about '~~Juice~~', on Sun, 13 Mar 2005:

And the aluminum tube that was essentially the whole rocket often became
a part of the reaction, the fuel burned thru the side and the rocket
lost acceleration - and it only went up a quarter mile or so.

Using Al with Zn/S fuel shows a surprising disregard for the chemistry.
Al is quite a lot more electropositive than zinc, and the protective
oxide film won't work against hot sulfur. It would perhaps be better to
make the body from zinc and use the aluminium in the fuel!
--
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only.
The good news is that nothing is compulsory.
The bad news is that everything is prohibited.
http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Also see http://www.isce.org.uk

 

[John Woodgate]

I read in alt.binaries.schematics.electronic that Tim Williams
<tmoranwms@charter.net> wrote (in <XD3Zd.6438$1P5.1145@fe03.lga&gt about
'~~Juice~~', on Sun, 13 Mar 2005:

"John Woodgate" <jmw@jmwa.demon.contraspam.yuk> wrote in message
news:I6z3IrDu0INCFwZN@jmwa.demon.co.uk...
I think I'd need to see that. Sodium *boils* at 900 C. And the energy
balance seems unlikely.

That was my thought, but apparently it's true.
http://www.destructve.com/bromicacid/experiments/december2003.htm

There isn't any real evidence that metallic K was produced by a
reaction:

2KOH + 2Mg ---> 2K + 2MgO + H2

which is not a 'thermite-type' reaction, since that normally involves a
trivalent metal oxide, although MnO2 may be included.

It *might* happen to some extent because the hydrogen escapes and that
would tend to drive the reaction to the right. However, I suspect that
atmospheric oxygen (and perhaps even nitrogen) participates:

2KOH + Mg + O2 -> K2O + MgO + H2O

The H2O escapes, of course, and the K2O may be further oxidized to KO2.

I can't help feeling that Humphry Davy would have tried reduction with
Mg, before resorting to electrolysis of molten KOH.
--
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only.
The good news is that nothing is compulsory.
The bad news is that everything is prohibited.
http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Also see http://www.isce.org.uk