Is there a good book for learning about valves/tubes?...

On 14/08/20 08:27, Tauno Voipio wrote:
On 14.8.20 9.00, Tom Gardner wrote:
On 14/08/20 00:54, ke...@kjwdesigns.com wrote:
On Thursday, 13 August 2020 at 13:59:08 UTC-7, Tom Gardner wrote:
...
The 1802 wasn\'t too odd, except that the PC was designated
by a 4-bit register under programmer control.
I agree on Hoare\'s Algol. It was a huge step forward from Autocode
and direct octal code input.
I did both, trimphantly reinventing a simple FSM in the latter case :)

The Algol compiler fitted in 4Kwords. I met Hoare once, and he
was surprised when I mentioned having used it :)

The first computer I used was an Elliott 803, at Bangor University, with 8k
words (it had a second cabinet for the additional 4k). We ran Algol with it
which was loaded from paper tape, a 6\" diameter roll. The run time library
was on a second slightly smaller roll of tape and had to be loaded with the
executable from the compiler.

That machine had a 39-bit word, and used a serial architecture running at
~145kHz clock rate, with OC45 transistors giving about 0.003 Mips IIRC.

I used one while was in the 6th form, in the neighbouring Ewell
Tech (now NESCOT).

I\'m not sure whether they loaded Algol from the paper tape, since
it also had the (sprocketed) magnetic film devices.

The instruction cycle time was 276us.

I almost went to Bangor, but Southampton was more convenient.

If you are ever near TNMoC, go and see one working, and listen
to it playing music (the high notes are very flat!). When I
mentioned I was an electronic engineers and had used one,
they whipped out the schematics and we discussed them.

Now that\'s what I call a /good/ museum. By comparison, Bletchley
Park next door is a bog-standard museum only worth seeing once.


The basic cycle was 288 us, and most instructions used two cycles,
576 us. IIRC, the only single-cycle instructions were control transfers.

There were two instructions in a 39 bit word, 6 instruction code bits
and 13 address bits for 19 bits per instruction. The extra bit in
the instruction word was an address modifier bit: If it was on, the
address of the second part was indexed with the result of the first
part before use.

Ach, the 276 was a typo on my part; I remember it being
a 2kIPS machine, i.e. 576us. I don\'t think I was aware
of the 288us timing.

ISTR I used the instruction modifier bit in my hand-assembled
program. That converted from one 5 channel paper tape code
we had at my school to the Elliott 5 channel code. (ASCII was
wonderful :) )

I forget the details, but it had two \"states\" (for fig/num shift)
and a computed goto based on the next character read. Someone else
tried to do it with if-the-elses, and failed miserably.

Although I didn\'t realise it at the time, that taught me that
/thinking/ and working out the right abstraction makes things
much more tractable.

Youngsters don\'t seem to realise that, and just use whatever
they\'ve been taught.
 
In article <PLpZG.808392$f44.746840@fx09.am4>, spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk
says...
On 14/08/20 00:54, ke...@kjwdesigns.com wrote:
On Thursday, 13 August 2020 at 13:59:08 UTC-7, Tom Gardner wrote:
...
The 1802 wasn\'t too odd, except that the PC was designated
by a 4-bit register under programmer control.
I agree on Hoare\'s Algol. It was a huge step forward from Autocode
and direct octal code input.
I did both, trimphantly reinventing a simple FSM in the latter case :)

The Algol compiler fitted in 4Kwords. I met Hoare once, and he
was surprised when I mentioned having used it :)

The first computer I used was an Elliott 803, at Bangor University, with 8k words (it had a second cabinet for the additional 4k). We ran Algol with it which was loaded from paper tape, a 6\" diameter roll. The run time library was on a second slightly smaller roll of tape and had to be loaded with the executable from the compiler.

That machine had a 39-bit word, and used a serial architecture running at ~145kHz clock rate, with OC45 transistors giving about 0.003 Mips IIRC.

I used one while was in the 6th form, in the neighbouring Ewell
Tech (now NESCOT).

I\'m not sure whether they loaded Algol from the paper tape, since
it also had the (sprocketed) magnetic film devices.

The instruction cycle time was 276us.

I almost went to Bangor, but Southampton was more convenient.

If you are ever near TNMoC, go and see one working, and listen
to it playing music (the high notes are very flat!). When I
mentioned I was an electronic engineers and had used one,
they whipped out the schematics and we discussed them.

Now that\'s what I call a /good/ museum. By comparison, Bletchley
Park next door is a bog-standard museum only worth seeing once.

I was going to comment that the audio speed of the 803 meant that
listening to it run on the speaker was a useful diagnostic tool. If the
burble changed tone or stopped, something had happened! This was on the
one in the maths department of WCAT (which became UWIST) in Cardiff.

Agreed about TNMoC too. Not sure I saw their 803, but did discuss a
device they have which used Dekatrons, since I used them for counting in
a student project I made in the early 1960s. I donated some valves and
my late Dad\'s valve tester, since they ran a valve exchange scheme. I
also contributed a display board showing the antecedent companies to my
then employer International Computers Limited. Deeply boring!

Mike.
 
On 14/08/20 10:03, Mike Coon wrote:
In article <PLpZG.808392$f44.746840@fx09.am4>, spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk
says...

On 14/08/20 00:54, ke...@kjwdesigns.com wrote:
On Thursday, 13 August 2020 at 13:59:08 UTC-7, Tom Gardner wrote:
...
The 1802 wasn\'t too odd, except that the PC was designated
by a 4-bit register under programmer control.
I agree on Hoare\'s Algol. It was a huge step forward from Autocode
and direct octal code input.
I did both, trimphantly reinventing a simple FSM in the latter case :)

The Algol compiler fitted in 4Kwords. I met Hoare once, and he
was surprised when I mentioned having used it :)

The first computer I used was an Elliott 803, at Bangor University, with 8k words (it had a second cabinet for the additional 4k). We ran Algol with it which was loaded from paper tape, a 6\" diameter roll. The run time library was on a second slightly smaller roll of tape and had to be loaded with the executable from the compiler.

That machine had a 39-bit word, and used a serial architecture running at ~145kHz clock rate, with OC45 transistors giving about 0.003 Mips IIRC.

I used one while was in the 6th form, in the neighbouring Ewell
Tech (now NESCOT).

I\'m not sure whether they loaded Algol from the paper tape, since
it also had the (sprocketed) magnetic film devices.

The instruction cycle time was 276us.

I almost went to Bangor, but Southampton was more convenient.

If you are ever near TNMoC, go and see one working, and listen
to it playing music (the high notes are very flat!). When I
mentioned I was an electronic engineers and had used one,
they whipped out the schematics and we discussed them.

Now that\'s what I call a /good/ museum. By comparison, Bletchley
Park next door is a bog-standard museum only worth seeing once.

I was going to comment that the audio speed of the 803 meant that
listening to it run on the speaker was a useful diagnostic tool. If the
burble changed tone or stopped, something had happened! This was on the
one in the maths department of WCAT (which became UWIST) in Cardiff.

Somewhere I have a cassette tape I made as a schoolkid.
\"Fetch Algol\" sounded lie a broody hen.


Agreed about TNMoC too. Not sure I saw their 803, but did discuss a
device they have which used Dekatrons, since I used them for counting in
a student project I made in the early 1960s. I donated some valves and
my late Dad\'s valve tester, since they ran a valve exchange scheme. I
also contributed a display board showing the antecedent companies to my
then employer International Computers Limited. Deeply boring!

The WITCH is the oldest operating computer in the world.

The 803 is in the same room as the ICL290x, next door to the WITCH.

Simply because dekatrons are fun, I recently bought a dekatron
counter without the associated geiger tube. The knob on the
front panel sets the tube voltage to 200-350V(?), and that
is accessible to fingers on the front panel connector.
Touch that, and it counts at 50Hz.

It is moderately entertaining to have someone watching as
you measure the voltage before touching it.
 
On 14.8.20 10.47, Tom Gardner wrote:
On 14/08/20 08:27, Tauno Voipio wrote:
On 14.8.20 9.00, Tom Gardner wrote:
On 14/08/20 00:54, ke...@kjwdesigns.com wrote:
On Thursday, 13 August 2020 at 13:59:08 UTC-7, Tom Gardner wrote:
...
The 1802 wasn\'t too odd, except that the PC was designated
by a 4-bit register under programmer control.
I agree on Hoare\'s Algol. It was a huge step forward from Autocode
and direct octal code input.
I did both, trimphantly reinventing a simple FSM in the latter case :)

The Algol compiler fitted in 4Kwords. I met Hoare once, and he
was surprised when I mentioned having used it :)

The first computer I used was an Elliott 803, at Bangor University,
with 8k words (it had a second cabinet for the additional 4k). We
ran Algol with it which was loaded from paper tape, a 6\" diameter
roll. The run time library was on a second slightly smaller roll of
tape and had to be loaded with the executable from the compiler.

That machine had a 39-bit word, and used a serial architecture
running at ~145kHz clock rate, with OC45 transistors giving about
0.003 Mips IIRC.

I used one while was in the 6th form, in the neighbouring Ewell
Tech (now NESCOT).

I\'m not sure whether they loaded Algol from the paper tape, since
it also had the (sprocketed) magnetic film devices.

The instruction cycle time was 276us.

I almost went to Bangor, but Southampton was more convenient.

If you are ever near TNMoC, go and see one working, and listen
to it playing music (the high notes are very flat!). When I
mentioned I was an electronic engineers and had used one,
they whipped out the schematics and we discussed them.

Now that\'s what I call a /good/ museum. By comparison, Bletchley
Park next door is a bog-standard museum only worth seeing once.


The basic cycle was 288 us, and most instructions used two cycles,
576 us. IIRC, the only single-cycle instructions were control transfers.

There were two instructions in a 39 bit word, 6 instruction code bits
and 13 address bits for 19 bits per instruction. The extra bit in
the instruction word was an address modifier bit: If it was on, the
address of the second part was indexed with the result of the first
part before use.

Ach, the 276 was a typo on my part; I remember it being
a 2kIPS machine, i.e. 576us. I don\'t think I was aware
of the 288us timing.

ISTR I used the instruction modifier bit in my hand-assembled
program. That converted from one 5 channel paper tape code
we had at my school to the Elliott 5 channel code. (ASCII was
wonderful :) )

I forget the details, but it had two \"states\" (for fig/num shift)
and a computed goto based on the next character read. Someone else
tried to do it with if-the-elses, and failed miserably.

Although I didn\'t realise it at the time, that taught me that
/thinking/ and working out the right abstraction makes things
much more tractable.

Youngsters don\'t seem to realise that, and just use whatever
they\'ve been taught.

The 5-bit + case code was picked from the Telex teleprinter network,
but for some reason Elliott decided to use differenc character codes.

One of the early programming challenges was to make a tape that would
have letters and figures correct even when read backwards.

I agree on ASCII.

--

-TV
 
On 14.8.20 12.03, Mike Coon wrote:
In article <PLpZG.808392$f44.746840@fx09.am4>, spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk
says...

On 14/08/20 00:54, ke...@kjwdesigns.com wrote:
On Thursday, 13 August 2020 at 13:59:08 UTC-7, Tom Gardner wrote:
...
The 1802 wasn\'t too odd, except that the PC was designated
by a 4-bit register under programmer control.
I agree on Hoare\'s Algol. It was a huge step forward from Autocode
and direct octal code input.
I did both, trimphantly reinventing a simple FSM in the latter case :)

The Algol compiler fitted in 4Kwords. I met Hoare once, and he
was surprised when I mentioned having used it :)

The first computer I used was an Elliott 803, at Bangor University, with 8k words (it had a second cabinet for the additional 4k). We ran Algol with it which was loaded from paper tape, a 6\" diameter roll. The run time library was on a second slightly smaller roll of tape and had to be loaded with the executable from the compiler.

That machine had a 39-bit word, and used a serial architecture running at ~145kHz clock rate, with OC45 transistors giving about 0.003 Mips IIRC.

I used one while was in the 6th form, in the neighbouring Ewell
Tech (now NESCOT).

I\'m not sure whether they loaded Algol from the paper tape, since
it also had the (sprocketed) magnetic film devices.

The instruction cycle time was 276us.

I almost went to Bangor, but Southampton was more convenient.

If you are ever near TNMoC, go and see one working, and listen
to it playing music (the high notes are very flat!). When I
mentioned I was an electronic engineers and had used one,
they whipped out the schematics and we discussed them.

Now that\'s what I call a /good/ museum. By comparison, Bletchley
Park next door is a bog-standard museum only worth seeing once.

I was going to comment that the audio speed of the 803 meant that
listening to it run on the speaker was a useful diagnostic tool. If the
burble changed tone or stopped, something had happened! This was on the
one in the maths department of WCAT (which became UWIST) in Cardiff.

Agreed about TNMoC too. Not sure I saw their 803, but did discuss a
device they have which used Dekatrons, since I used them for counting in
a student project I made in the early 1960s. I donated some valves and
my late Dad\'s valve tester, since they ran a valve exchange scheme. I
also contributed a display board showing the antecedent companies to my
then employer International Computers Limited. Deeply boring!

Mike.

The audio of the 803 came from the most significant bit of the
instruction regiater. The high-pitched whine of a dynamic stop
was the 288us cycle of a jump to self.

--

-TV
 
On 14/08/20 13:45, Tauno Voipio wrote:
On 14.8.20 10.47, Tom Gardner wrote:
On 14/08/20 08:27, Tauno Voipio wrote:
On 14.8.20 9.00, Tom Gardner wrote:
On 14/08/20 00:54, ke...@kjwdesigns.com wrote:
On Thursday, 13 August 2020 at 13:59:08 UTC-7, Tom Gardner wrote:
...
The 1802 wasn\'t too odd, except that the PC was designated
by a 4-bit register under programmer control.
I agree on Hoare\'s Algol. It was a huge step forward from Autocode
and direct octal code input.
I did both, trimphantly reinventing a simple FSM in the latter case :)

The Algol compiler fitted in 4Kwords. I met Hoare once, and he
was surprised when I mentioned having used it :)

The first computer I used was an Elliott 803, at Bangor University, with 8k
words (it had a second cabinet for the additional 4k). We ran Algol with it
which was loaded from paper tape, a 6\" diameter roll. The run time library
was on a second slightly smaller roll of tape and had to be loaded with the
executable from the compiler.

That machine had a 39-bit word, and used a serial architecture running at
~145kHz clock rate, with OC45 transistors giving about 0.003 Mips IIRC.

I used one while was in the 6th form, in the neighbouring Ewell
Tech (now NESCOT).

I\'m not sure whether they loaded Algol from the paper tape, since
it also had the (sprocketed) magnetic film devices.

The instruction cycle time was 276us.

I almost went to Bangor, but Southampton was more convenient.

If you are ever near TNMoC, go and see one working, and listen
to it playing music (the high notes are very flat!). When I
mentioned I was an electronic engineers and had used one,
they whipped out the schematics and we discussed them.

Now that\'s what I call a /good/ museum. By comparison, Bletchley
Park next door is a bog-standard museum only worth seeing once.


The basic cycle was 288 us, and most instructions used two cycles,
576 us. IIRC, the only single-cycle instructions were control transfers.

There were two instructions in a 39 bit word, 6 instruction code bits
and 13 address bits for 19 bits per instruction. The extra bit in
the instruction word was an address modifier bit: If it was on, the
address of the second part was indexed with the result of the first
part before use.

Ach, the 276 was a typo on my part; I remember it being
a 2kIPS machine, i.e. 576us. I don\'t think I was aware
of the 288us timing.

ISTR I used the instruction modifier bit in my hand-assembled
program. That converted from one 5 channel paper tape code
we had at my school to the Elliott 5 channel code. (ASCII was
wonderful :) )

I forget the details, but it had two \"states\" (for fig/num shift)
and a computed goto based on the next character read. Someone else
tried to do it with if-the-elses, and failed miserably.

Although I didn\'t realise it at the time, that taught me that
/thinking/ and working out the right abstraction makes things
much more tractable.

Youngsters don\'t seem to realise that, and just use whatever
they\'ve been taught.

The 5-bit + case code was picked from the Telex teleprinter network,
but for some reason Elliott decided to use differenc character codes.

One of the early programming challenges was to make a tape that would
have letters and figures correct even when read backwards.

I agree on ASCII.

I thought letter-shift and figure-shift had been consigned to
the dustbin of history - and good riddance.

Now youngsters use it all the time, with another shift thrown
in for good^h^h^h^h bad measure :(
 
On 2020-08-14 08:55, Tom Gardner wrote:
On 14/08/20 13:45, Tauno Voipio wrote:
On 14.8.20 10.47, Tom Gardner wrote:
On 14/08/20 08:27, Tauno Voipio wrote:
On 14.8.20 9.00, Tom Gardner wrote:
On 14/08/20 00:54, ke...@kjwdesigns.com wrote:
On Thursday, 13 August 2020 at 13:59:08 UTC-7, Tom Gardner wrote:
...
The 1802 wasn\'t too odd, except that the PC was designated
by a 4-bit register under programmer control.
I agree on Hoare\'s Algol. It was a huge step forward from Autocode
and direct octal code input.
I did both, trimphantly reinventing a simple FSM in the latter
case :)

The Algol compiler fitted in 4Kwords. I met Hoare once, and he
was surprised when I mentioned having used it :)

The first computer I used was an Elliott 803, at Bangor
University, with 8k words (it had a second cabinet for the
additional 4k). We ran Algol with it which was loaded from paper
tape, a 6\" diameter roll. The run time library was on a second
slightly smaller roll of tape and had to be loaded with the
executable from the compiler.

That machine had a 39-bit word, and used a serial architecture
running at ~145kHz clock rate, with OC45 transistors giving about
0.003 Mips IIRC.

I used one while was in the 6th form, in the neighbouring Ewell
Tech (now NESCOT).

I\'m not sure whether they loaded Algol from the paper tape, since
it also had the (sprocketed) magnetic film devices.

The instruction cycle time was 276us.

I almost went to Bangor, but Southampton was more convenient.

If you are ever near TNMoC, go and see one working, and listen
to it playing music (the high notes are very flat!). When I
mentioned I was an electronic engineers and had used one,
they whipped out the schematics and we discussed them.

Now that\'s what I call a /good/ museum. By comparison, Bletchley
Park next door is a bog-standard museum only worth seeing once.


The basic cycle was 288 us, and most instructions used two cycles,
576 us. IIRC, the only single-cycle instructions were control
transfers.

There were two instructions in a 39 bit word, 6 instruction code bits
and 13 address bits for 19 bits per instruction. The extra bit in
the instruction word was an address modifier bit: If it was on, the
address of the second part was indexed with the result of the first
part before use.

Ach, the 276 was a typo on my part; I remember it being
a 2kIPS machine, i.e. 576us. I don\'t think I was aware
of the 288us timing.

ISTR I used the instruction modifier bit in my hand-assembled
program. That converted from one 5 channel paper tape code
we had at my school to the Elliott 5 channel code. (ASCII was
wonderful :) )

I forget the details, but it had two \"states\" (for fig/num shift)
and a computed goto based on the next character read. Someone else
tried to do it with if-the-elses, and failed miserably.

Although I didn\'t realise it at the time, that taught me that
/thinking/ and working out the right abstraction makes things
much more tractable.

Youngsters don\'t seem to realise that, and just use whatever
they\'ve been taught.

The 5-bit + case code was picked from the Telex teleprinter network,
but for some reason Elliott decided to use differenc character codes.

One of the early programming challenges was to make a tape that would
have letters and figures correct even when read backwards.

I agree on ASCII.

I thought letter-shift and figure-shift had been consigned to
the dustbin of history - and good riddance.

Now youngsters use it all the time, with another shift thrown
in for good^h^h^h^h bad measure :(

Well, we all grew up with crystal-clear full duplex phones as well. How
did they get us to settle for these ridiculous walkie-talkie things?

When organizing a phone meeting I\'m constantly having to nudge people to
use land lines. Otherwise there\'s a strong likelihood that some
loquacious individual will monopolize it--usually adding long ahhhhhs
while deciding what to say next, to prevent people from interrupting.
Dunno if it\'s deliberate, but I expect it sometimes is.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs


--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

http://electrooptical.net
http://hobbs-eo.com
 
On 14/08/20 14:12, Phil Hobbs wrote:
On 2020-08-14 08:55, Tom Gardner wrote:
On 14/08/20 13:45, Tauno Voipio wrote:
On 14.8.20 10.47, Tom Gardner wrote:
On 14/08/20 08:27, Tauno Voipio wrote:
On 14.8.20 9.00, Tom Gardner wrote:
On 14/08/20 00:54, ke...@kjwdesigns.com wrote:
On Thursday, 13 August 2020 at 13:59:08 UTC-7, Tom Gardner wrote:
...
The 1802 wasn\'t too odd, except that the PC was designated
by a 4-bit register under programmer control.
I agree on Hoare\'s Algol. It was a huge step forward from Autocode
and direct octal code input.
I did both, trimphantly reinventing a simple FSM in the latter case :)

The Algol compiler fitted in 4Kwords. I met Hoare once, and he
was surprised when I mentioned having used it :)

The first computer I used was an Elliott 803, at Bangor University, with
8k words (it had a second cabinet for the additional 4k). We ran Algol
with it which was loaded from paper tape, a 6\" diameter roll. The run
time library was on a second slightly smaller roll of tape and had to be
loaded with the executable from the compiler.

That machine had a 39-bit word, and used a serial architecture running at
~145kHz clock rate, with OC45 transistors giving about 0.003 Mips IIRC.

I used one while was in the 6th form, in the neighbouring Ewell
Tech (now NESCOT).

I\'m not sure whether they loaded Algol from the paper tape, since
it also had the (sprocketed) magnetic film devices.

The instruction cycle time was 276us.

I almost went to Bangor, but Southampton was more convenient.

If you are ever near TNMoC, go and see one working, and listen
to it playing music (the high notes are very flat!). When I
mentioned I was an electronic engineers and had used one,
they whipped out the schematics and we discussed them.

Now that\'s what I call a /good/ museum. By comparison, Bletchley
Park next door is a bog-standard museum only worth seeing once.


The basic cycle was 288 us, and most instructions used two cycles,
576 us. IIRC, the only single-cycle instructions were control transfers.

There were two instructions in a 39 bit word, 6 instruction code bits
and 13 address bits for 19 bits per instruction. The extra bit in
the instruction word was an address modifier bit: If it was on, the
address of the second part was indexed with the result of the first
part before use.

Ach, the 276 was a typo on my part; I remember it being
a 2kIPS machine, i.e. 576us. I don\'t think I was aware
of the 288us timing.

ISTR I used the instruction modifier bit in my hand-assembled
program. That converted from one 5 channel paper tape code
we had at my school to the Elliott 5 channel code. (ASCII was
wonderful :) )

I forget the details, but it had two \"states\" (for fig/num shift)
and a computed goto based on the next character read. Someone else
tried to do it with if-the-elses, and failed miserably.

Although I didn\'t realise it at the time, that taught me that
/thinking/ and working out the right abstraction makes things
much more tractable.

Youngsters don\'t seem to realise that, and just use whatever
they\'ve been taught.

The 5-bit + case code was picked from the Telex teleprinter network,
but for some reason Elliott decided to use differenc character codes.

One of the early programming challenges was to make a tape that would
have letters and figures correct even when read backwards.

I agree on ASCII.

I thought letter-shift and figure-shift had been consigned to
the dustbin of history - and good riddance.

Now youngsters use it all the time, with another shift thrown
in for good^h^h^h^h bad measure :(

Well, we all grew up with crystal-clear full duplex phones as well.  How did
they get us to settle for these ridiculous walkie-talkie things?

What I can\'t stand is the quality of the music my (now departed)
daughter plays through it. I always loathed the tinny \"transistor
radio\" sound when growing up; this is worse.

Curiously I might find it relaxing to hear one type of \"music\":
the sounds of a waterfall or a cloudburst in the Amazon rain forest.

The latter is famously synthesised by the percussionist Nana
Vasconcelos. He gets the audience to clap randomly, slowly at
first, then faster, then more slowly.

I once watched a professional percussionist, Dame Evelyn Glennie,
see that. Her jaw /literally/ dropped and flapped around.


When organizing a phone meeting I\'m constantly having to nudge people to use
land lines.  Otherwise there\'s a strong likelihood that some loquacious
individual will monopolize it--usually adding long ahhhhhs while deciding what
to say next, to prevent people from interrupting. Dunno if it\'s deliberate, but
I expect it sometimes is.

When I had such intercontinental events discussing 60GHz systems,
everything seemed to go smoothly. Didn\'t bother with video, but
did share X-desktops.

I don\'t know how modern multiparty Zoom parties work.
 
Am 14.08.20 um 01:54 schrieb ke...@kjwdesigns.com:
On Thursday, 13 August 2020 at 13:59:08 UTC-7, Tom Gardner wrote:
...
The 1802 wasn\'t too odd, except that the PC was designated
by a 4-bit register under programmer control.
I agree on Hoare\'s Algol. It was a huge step forward from Autocode
and direct octal code input.
I did both, trimphantly reinventing a simple FSM in the latter case :)

The Algol compiler fitted in 4Kwords. I met Hoare once, and he
was surprised when I mentioned having used it :)

The first computer I used was an Elliott 803, at Bangor University, with 8k words (it had a second cabinet for the additional 4k). We ran Algol with it which was loaded from paper tape, a 6\" diameter roll. The run time library was on a second slightly smaller roll of tape and had to be loaded with the executable from the compiler.

That machine had a 39-bit word, and used a serial architecture running at ~145kHz clock rate, with OC45 transistors giving about 0.003 Mips IIRC.

\"My\" first machine was a Telefunken TR4, the first commercial
micro-programmed machine ever. It was withdrawn from military service
and donated to the univ. AEG-Telefunken always was somewhat distinctive,
Teak wood panels everywhere and they paid their engineers above average,
sort of an aristocratic company. When Daimler-Mercedes bought them, that
was quickly rectified & they were soon a me-too company.

The TR4 had 48 bit registers with a neon lamp for each bit. Mostly
OC604 / AC122 / 151 / AC157.

<
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/53/Telefunken-tr4.jpg >

Disk drives were Boroughs(?) with > 1m diameter, a 3phase motor and
a leather belt between the platters and the motor. And each track had
a head of it\'s own.

But it was able to compile Spice 2G4.

In a certain sense this was my first PC. Operators worked it from 9 to 5
and some of us EE students were allowed to run it for the rest of the
time. Sometimes I missed the last train to my home town an hour past
midnight. :)

Cheers, Gerhard
 
On 2020-08-14 09:59, Gerhard Hoffmann wrote:
Am 14.08.20 um 01:54 schrieb ke...@kjwdesigns.com:
On Thursday, 13 August 2020 at 13:59:08 UTC-7, Tom Gardner wrote:
...
The 1802 wasn\'t too odd, except that the PC was designated by a
4-bit register under programmer control.
I agree on Hoare\'s Algol. It was a huge step forward from
Autocode and direct octal code input.
I did both, trimphantly reinventing a simple FSM in the latter
case :)

The Algol compiler fitted in 4Kwords. I met Hoare once, and he
was surprised when I mentioned having used it :)

The first computer I used was an Elliott 803, at Bangor University,
with 8k words (it had a second cabinet for the additional 4k). We
ran Algol with it which was loaded from paper tape, a 6\" diameter
roll. The run time library was on a second slightly smaller roll of
tape and had to be loaded with the executable from the compiler.

That machine had a 39-bit word, and used a serial architecture
running at ~145kHz clock rate, with OC45 transistors giving about
0.003 Mips IIRC.

\"My\" first machine was a Telefunken TR4, the first commercial
micro-programmed machine ever.

Wiki says the EDSAC 2 (fully operational in 1958) was microprogrammed.

It was withdrawn from military service and donated to the univ.
AEG-Telefunken always was somewhat distinctive, Teak wood panels
everywhere and they paid their engineers above average, sort of an
aristocratic company. When Daimler-Mercedes bought them, that was
quickly rectified & they were soon a me-too company.

The TR4 had 48 bit registers with a neon lamp for each bit. Mostly
OC604 / AC122 / 151 / AC157.


https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/53/Telefunken-tr4.jpg


Disk drives were Boroughs(?) with > 1m diameter, a 3phase motor and a
leather belt between the platters and the motor. And each track had a
head of it\'s own.

But it was able to compile Spice 2G4.

In a certain sense this was my first PC. Operators worked it from 9
to 5 and some of us EE students were allowed to run it for the rest
of the time. Sometimes I missed the last train to my home town an
hour past midnight. :)

I had a car when I went to university (if you call it that--it was a
Fiat 128 with an 1100 cc engine) so I didn\'t miss any trains, but I did
spend some nights in the terminal room hunched over a green glowing 3270
trying to get this Danish observatory\'s radiative transfer code running.

Good times--teaching myself Fortran while debugging somebody else\'s code
that simulated physics I didn\'t yet understand. ;)

Cheers

Phil Hobbs


--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

http://electrooptical.net
http://hobbs-eo.com
 
On 14/08/2020 4:05 pm, Phil Allison wrote:
david eather who refuses to answer a simple question wrote:

===========================================================

** Your Q is way too broad - the topic of tubes is ENORMOUS while current production involves only a few popular audio types.

FFS tell us what you ACTUALLY wish to know about.


A very fair question.


** Which is still going unanswered.


As a young lad I had no contact with valves. At uni I had no need to
know anything about them and studiously (is that even possible?) avoided
them. Now at home much more because of CV19, I have lots of spare time
and while it is not going to be a source of any income I would like to
fill at least some of my ignorance.


** And you imagine reading a book will do that ?


So I am looking for a good general introductory book on the subject.


** What subject is that ?

We cannot reads your mind.


see lots of recommendations which I will go through \'till I find
something of the right level.


** So you are not going to answer the Q at all ?

Wot a PIA you are.


..... Phil

OK maybe this helps. I would like to learn enough so I can look at a
schematic of basic valve circuits and be able to work out what it is and
what it does.

Also very important: You didn\'t like the road runner joke?
 
david eather wrote:

================
** Your Q is way too broad - the topic of tubes is ENORMOUS while current production involves only a few popular audio types.

FFS tell us what you ACTUALLY wish to know about.



OK maybe this helps. I would like to learn enough so I can look at a
schematic of basic valve circuits and be able to work out what it is and
what it does.

** So you are never going to answer the question.



...... Phil
 
On Sunday, 16 August 2020 at 00:45:53 UTC+1, palli...@gmail.com wrote:
david eather wrote:

================

** Your Q is way too broad - the topic of tubes is ENORMOUS while current production involves only a few popular audio types.

FFS tell us what you ACTUALLY wish to know about.



OK maybe this helps. I would like to learn enough so I can look at a
schematic of basic valve circuits and be able to work out what it is and
what it does.


** So you are never going to answer the question.



..... Phil

All valves require heater power to conduct. All only conduct once the heater is hot.
diode: lower i, much higher Vf than silicon. Current limiting under overload
triode: same as a fet, but high Va usually required
pentode: as triode but the screen grid requires a fair bit of +ve V at lowish i. Pentodes have less Cag & more gain.
Hexode, pentagrid etc: bit more complex.


NT
 
Tabby wrote:

=============>
All valves require heater power to conduct.
All only conduct once the heater is hot.

** Shame about cold cathode tubes then ...

Current limiting under overload
triode: same as a fet, but high Va usually required
pentode: as triode but the screen grid requires a fair bit
of +ve V at lowish i.

** By pure coincidence, I was looking at max plate I in relation to 6L6GC and 6550 types this morning.

The figures are not published in the max listings but some info can be gleaned from sets of graphs. Max available plate current is a function mostly of screen volts, plus any inherent limits on cathode emission - which varies with tube condition and brand.

For Russian made examples in good condition I found max plate I to be 400 and 750 mA respectively, long as the screen supply was 450V or more.

However, a used US made Sylvania 6L6GC was able to pass 550 mA under the same ( 50Hz pulse) test conditions.

See link for details of my test set up:

https://sound-au.com/project165.htm


...... Phil

 
On Sunday, 16 August 2020 at 05:42:04 UTC+1, palli...@gmail.com wrote:
Tabby wrote:

=============
All valves require heater power to conduct.
All only conduct once the heater is hot.

** Shame about cold cathode tubes then ...

The OP asked for an introduction , obviously there is far more to the subject.


Current limiting under overload
triode: same as a fet, but high Va usually required
pentode: as triode but the screen grid requires a fair bit
of +ve V at lowish i.

** By pure coincidence, I was looking at max plate I in relation to 6L6GC and 6550 types this morning.

The figures are not published in the max listings but some info can be gleaned from sets of graphs. Max available plate current is a function mostly of screen volts, plus any inherent limits on cathode emission - which varies with tube condition and brand.

For Russian made examples in good condition I found max plate I to be 400 and 750 mA respectively, long as the screen supply was 450V or more.

However, a used US made Sylvania 6L6GC was able to pass 550 mA under the same ( 50Hz pulse) test conditions.

See link for details of my test set up:

https://sound-au.com/project165.htm


..... Phil

I_max degrades over the valve\'s lifetime, and the harder you push it the less well it lasts. Hence in some apps the valves last & last, and in some harder pushed designs they don\'t. Valves effectively have guidelines.


NT
 
Tabby the Fucking Idiot wrote:

==============================
=============
All valves require heater power to conduct.
All only conduct once the heater is hot.

** Shame about cold cathode tubes then ...

The OP asked for an introduction,

** Not bullshit.




** By pure coincidence, I was looking at max plate I in relation to 6L6GC and 6550 types this morning.

The figures are not published in the max listings but some info can be gleaned from sets of graphs. Max available plate current is a function mostly of screen volts, plus any inherent limits on cathode emission - which varies with tube condition and brand.

For Russian made examples in good condition I found max plate I to be 400 and 750 mA respectively, long as the screen supply was 450V or more.

However, a used US made Sylvania 6L6GC was able to pass 550 mA under the same ( 50Hz pulse) test conditions.

See link for details of my test set up:

https://sound-au.com/project165.htm



I_max degrades over the valve\'s lifetime, and the harder you
push it the less well it lasts. Hence in some apps the valves
last & last, and in some harder pushed designs they don\'t.
Valves effectively have guidelines.

** Shame autistic *raving lunatics* like you do not have any.

I sincerely look forward to you imminent death, as does everyone unlucky enough to know you.



...... Phil
 
On 10/08/2020 7:20 am, boB wrote:
On Mon, 10 Aug 2020 07:06:13 +1000, david eather
eathDELETEer@tpg.com.au> wrote:

suggestions please
TIA


Lots of old books scanned online.

Search for vacuum tube design or similar into Google etc...

www.archive.org will have many books I believe.

many, many, books. I didn\'t know about archive.org
.. Thanks
 
On 10/08/2020 8:21 am, Tim Williams wrote:
Hard to go wrong with good old RDH4,
http://www.tubebooks.org/Books/RDH4.pdf

May be a little on the heavy side if you\'re more generally beginner,
than an active designer and just unfamiliar with tubes in particular.

Also plenty of articles and web pages by varying degrees of experts,
fans and nuts.  Tubecad comes to mind as one of the generally
informative ones. Downside is, the audioph{ile|ool} community won\'t give
the most practical or representative picture of things, so keep that in
mind.

Tim

RDH4 looks very good. Thanks. Now to stoke up the fireplace and sit down
with a coffee....HOLY CRAP 1500+ pages!

Seriously, thanks.
 
On 10/08/2020 11:14 am, bitrex wrote:
On 8/9/2020 6:21 PM, Tim Williams wrote:
Hard to go wrong with good old RDH4,
http://www.tubebooks.org/Books/RDH4.pdf

May be a little on the heavy side if you\'re more generally beginner,
than an active designer and just unfamiliar with tubes in particular.

Also plenty of articles and web pages by varying degrees of experts,
fans and nuts.  Tubecad comes to mind as one of the generally
informative ones. Downside is, the audioph{ile|ool} community won\'t
give the most practical or representative picture of things, so keep
that in mind.

Tim


An RDH4 alternative from the time period that\'s a bit more compact but
covers the important topics:

https://www.amazon.com/Electron-tube-Circuits-Samuel-Seely/dp/B00005VRTP

looking into it. thanks
 
On Sunday, 16 August 2020 15:31:58 UTC+1, Phool Allison wrote:
Tabby the Fucking Idiot wrote:

==============================
=============
All valves require heater power to conduct.
All only conduct once the heater is hot.

** Shame about cold cathode tubes then ...

The OP asked for an introduction,

** Not bullshit.




** By pure coincidence, I was looking at max plate I in relation to 6L6GC and 6550 types this morning.

The figures are not published in the max listings but some info can be gleaned from sets of graphs. Max available plate current is a function mostly of screen volts, plus any inherent limits on cathode emission - which varies with tube condition and brand.

For Russian made examples in good condition I found max plate I to be 400 and 750 mA respectively, long as the screen supply was 450V or more.

However, a used US made Sylvania 6L6GC was able to pass 550 mA under the same ( 50Hz pulse) test conditions.

See link for details of my test set up:

https://sound-au.com/project165.htm



I_max degrades over the valve\'s lifetime, and the harder you
push it the less well it lasts. Hence in some apps the valves
last & last, and in some harder pushed designs they don\'t.
Valves effectively have guidelines.


** Shame autistic *raving lunatics* like you do not have any.

I sincerely look forward to you imminent death, as does everyone unlucky enough to know you.



..... Phil

What\'s wrong with this one, anyone know?
 

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