Is there a good book for learning about valves/tubes?...

[Phil Allison]

gray_wolf wrote:

=================

Good question! I\'m wondering what the OP would do if he knew all
about tubes? Build a HiFi amp? Guitar amp?

Good question, yes.
So far the OP hasn\'t made clear what he wants to do. In the
absence of such clarification,


The thought just occurred that to me that perhaps he has no electronic
experience at all

** David Eather is regular, long time poster.

The likely scenario is that his Q was posted in order to advise another somewhere on the www. So he cannot supply the actual need or context and has not responded to folk here.

If posters do that sort of thing - I wish they would fucking well say so.



...... Phil

 

[Pimpom]

On 8/13/2020 1:20 AM, John Larkin wrote:

On Wed, 12 Aug 2020 21:15:52 +0300, Tauno Voipio
tauno.voipio@notused.fi.invalid> wrote:

On 10.8.20 0.06, david eather wrote:
suggestions please
TIA

For transmitting use: The Care and Feeding of Power Grid Tubes,
by Eimac, if you can get hold of one. (I\'ll keep mine).

Has anyone mentioned the RCA receiving and transmitting tube manuals?

They had a good PMT manual too.

I posted that somewhere up above in the thread. The RCA tube and
transistor manuals were among my first books on electronics.

 

[whit3rd]

On Tuesday, August 11, 2020 at 4:39:27 AM UTC-7, Tim Williams wrote:

\"Phil Hobbs\" <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote in message
news:rgsipb$17mk$1@gioia.aioe.org...
EMP-proof serial computer, definitely.

Y\'know, I wonder what kind of performance one of those could do, given
modern architectural and electronic knowledge.

A clock frequency somewhat under a MHz seems reasonable...

Oh, gigahertz makes just as much sense, with Nuvistor technology and some 3D
printing of electrodes. Some of the old serial-CPU gizmos with delay lines
were relatively capable (HP 9100A comes to mind) and a delay-line memory
is wonderfully parts-count minimal.

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hewlett-Packard_9100A>

 

[Phil Hobbs]

On 2020-08-12 21:52, Michael Terrell wrote:

On Wednesday, August 12, 2020 at 2:15:56 PM UTC-4, Tauno Voipio
wrote:
On 10.8.20 0.06, david eather wrote:
suggestions please TIA

For transmitting use: The Care and Feeding of Power Grid Tubes, by
Eimac, if you can get hold of one. (I\'ll keep mine).


I\'d like to see the datasheets on the EEV Klystrons that were used in
a Comark UHF TV transmitter that I maintained. 65KW output, per tube.
It\'s bee over 30 years, so I don\'t remember their type number. It was
the last Comark built with Klystrons. The next transmitter used
Klystrodes, instead. Higher efficiency, less cooling required and
lower electric bills.

I didn\'t know about Klystrodes--pretty cool devices actually.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

http://electrooptical.net
http://hobbs-eo.com

 

[Tom Gardner]

On 13/08/20 08:14, whit3rd wrote:

On Tuesday, August 11, 2020 at 4:39:27 AM UTC-7, Tim Williams wrote:
\"Phil Hobbs\" <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote in message
news:rgsipb$17mk$1@gioia.aioe.org...
EMP-proof serial computer, definitely.

Y\'know, I wonder what kind of performance one of those could do, given
modern architectural and electronic knowledge.

A clock frequency somewhat under a MHz seems reasonable...


Oh, gigahertz makes just as much sense, with Nuvistor technology and some 3D
printing of electrodes. Some of the old serial-CPU gizmos with delay lines
were relatively capable (HP 9100A comes to mind) and a delay-line memory
is wonderfully parts-count minimal.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hewlett-Packard_9100A

If you want to minimise active devices, you could copy
the old techniques of using magnetic components in logic
gates.

http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/CCS/res/res03.htm#e

I\'m sure Peter Onion would be only too happy to discuss
in detail. The full schematics are available at TNMoC

 

[server]

On Thu, 13 Aug 2020 00:14:01 -0700 (PDT), whit3rd <whit3rd@gmail.com>
wrote:

On Tuesday, August 11, 2020 at 4:39:27 AM UTC-7, Tim Williams wrote:
\"Phil Hobbs\" <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote in message
news:rgsipb$17mk$1@gioia.aioe.org...
EMP-proof serial computer, definitely.

Y\'know, I wonder what kind of performance one of those could do, given
modern architectural and electronic knowledge.

A clock frequency somewhat under a MHz seems reasonable...


Oh, gigahertz makes just as much sense, with Nuvistor technology and some 3D
printing of electrodes. Some of the old serial-CPU gizmos with delay lines
were relatively capable (HP 9100A comes to mind) and a delay-line memory
is wonderfully parts-count minimal.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hewlett-Packard_9100A

There are no delay lines in a 9100. Memory includes core, PCB
inductive ROM, and diode ROM.



--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

Science teaches us to doubt.

Claude Bernard

 

[Tauno Voipio]

On 13.8.20 11.41, Tom Gardner wrote:

On 13/08/20 08:14, whit3rd wrote:
On Tuesday, August 11, 2020 at 4:39:27 AM UTC-7, Tim Williams wrote:
\"Phil Hobbs\" <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote in message
news:rgsipb$17mk$1@gioia.aioe.org...
EMP-proof serial computer, definitely.

Y\'know, I wonder what kind of performance one of those could do, given
modern architectural and electronic knowledge.

A clock frequency somewhat under a MHz seems reasonable...


Oh, gigahertz makes just as much sense, with Nuvistor technology and
some 3D
printing of electrodes.   Some of the old serial-CPU gizmos with delay
lines
were relatively capable (HP 9100A comes to  mind)  and a delay-line
memory
is wonderfully parts-count minimal.

  <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hewlett-Packard_9100A


If you want to minimise active devices, you could copy
the old techniques of using magnetic components in logic
gates.

http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/CCS/res/res03.htm#e

I\'m sure Peter Onion would be only too happy to discuss
in detail. The full schematics are available at TNMoC

The Ellie in your reference used delay lines in registers,
with weird bit time lengths. They were the main reason why
the machine was very fussy on the three-phase clock frequency.

--

-TV

(Ellie = Elliott 803)

 

[Tom Gardner]

On 13/08/20 16:57, Tauno Voipio wrote:

On 13.8.20 11.41, Tom Gardner wrote:
On 13/08/20 08:14, whit3rd wrote:
On Tuesday, August 11, 2020 at 4:39:27 AM UTC-7, Tim Williams wrote:
\"Phil Hobbs\" <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote in message
news:rgsipb$17mk$1@gioia.aioe.org...
EMP-proof serial computer, definitely.

Y\'know, I wonder what kind of performance one of those could do, given
modern architectural and electronic knowledge.

A clock frequency somewhat under a MHz seems reasonable...


Oh, gigahertz makes just as much sense, with Nuvistor technology and some 3D
printing of electrodes.   Some of the old serial-CPU gizmos with delay lines
were relatively capable (HP 9100A comes to  mind)  and a delay-line memory
is wonderfully parts-count minimal.

  <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hewlett-Packard_9100A


If you want to minimise active devices, you could copy
the old techniques of using magnetic components in logic
gates.

http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/CCS/res/res03.htm#e

I\'m sure Peter Onion would be only too happy to discuss
in detail. The full schematics are available at TNMoC


The Ellie in your reference used delay lines in registers,
with weird bit time lengths. They were the main reason why
the machine was very fussy on the three-phase clock frequency.

/Everything/ was weird back then

Except, in the case of the 803 etc, Tony Hoare\'s Algol-60
compiler which was groundbreaking.

It was still was weird in the 1970s microprocessors. Consider
the RCA1802, the Motorola 14500, and what was that one
without an external address bus?

 

[Tauno Voipio]

On 13.8.20 20.23, Tom Gardner wrote:

On 13/08/20 16:57, Tauno Voipio wrote:
On 13.8.20 11.41, Tom Gardner wrote:
On 13/08/20 08:14, whit3rd wrote:
On Tuesday, August 11, 2020 at 4:39:27 AM UTC-7, Tim Williams wrote:
\"Phil Hobbs\" <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote in message
news:rgsipb$17mk$1@gioia.aioe.org...
EMP-proof serial computer, definitely.

Y\'know, I wonder what kind of performance one of those could do, given
modern architectural and electronic knowledge.

A clock frequency somewhat under a MHz seems reasonable...


Oh, gigahertz makes just as much sense, with Nuvistor technology and
some 3D
printing of electrodes.   Some of the old serial-CPU gizmos with
delay lines
were relatively capable (HP 9100A comes to  mind)  and a delay-line
memory
is wonderfully parts-count minimal.

  <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hewlett-Packard_9100A


If you want to minimise active devices, you could copy
the old techniques of using magnetic components in logic
gates.

http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/CCS/res/res03.htm#e

I\'m sure Peter Onion would be only too happy to discuss
in detail. The full schematics are available at TNMoC


The Ellie in your reference used delay lines in registers,
with weird bit time lengths. They were the main reason why
the machine was very fussy on the three-phase clock frequency.

/Everything/ was weird back then

Except, in the case of the 803 etc, Tony Hoare\'s Algol-60
compiler which was groundbreaking.

It was still was weird in the 1970s microprocessors. Consider
the RCA1802, the Motorola 14500, and what was that one
without an external address bus?

At least Intel 4004 and 4040. 3 power supplies and weird clocking.

I agree on Hoare\'s Algol. It was a huge step forward from Autocode
and direct octal code input.

--

-TV

 

[John Larkin]

On Thu, 13 Aug 2020 11:59:06 +0530, Pimpom <nobody@nowhere.com> wrote:

On 8/13/2020 1:20 AM, John Larkin wrote:
On Wed, 12 Aug 2020 21:15:52 +0300, Tauno Voipio
tauno.voipio@notused.fi.invalid> wrote:

On 10.8.20 0.06, david eather wrote:
suggestions please
TIA

For transmitting use: The Care and Feeding of Power Grid Tubes,
by Eimac, if you can get hold of one. (I\'ll keep mine).

Has anyone mentioned the RCA receiving and transmitting tube manuals?

They had a good PMT manual too.

I posted that somewhere up above in the thread. The RCA tube and
transistor manuals were among my first books on electronics.

The GE Transistor and Tunnel Diode and SCR manuals were great too. I
still have them.

 

[Tom Gardner]

On 13/08/20 19:26, Tauno Voipio wrote:

On 13.8.20 20.23, Tom Gardner wrote:
On 13/08/20 16:57, Tauno Voipio wrote:
On 13.8.20 11.41, Tom Gardner wrote:
On 13/08/20 08:14, whit3rd wrote:
On Tuesday, August 11, 2020 at 4:39:27 AM UTC-7, Tim Williams wrote:
\"Phil Hobbs\" <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote in message
news:rgsipb$17mk$1@gioia.aioe.org...
EMP-proof serial computer, definitely.

Y\'know, I wonder what kind of performance one of those could do, given
modern architectural and electronic knowledge.

A clock frequency somewhat under a MHz seems reasonable...


Oh, gigahertz makes just as much sense, with Nuvistor technology and some 3D
printing of electrodes.   Some of the old serial-CPU gizmos with delay lines
were relatively capable (HP 9100A comes to  mind)  and a delay-line memory
is wonderfully parts-count minimal.

  <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hewlett-Packard_9100A


If you want to minimise active devices, you could copy
the old techniques of using magnetic components in logic
gates.

http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/CCS/res/res03.htm#e

I\'m sure Peter Onion would be only too happy to discuss
in detail. The full schematics are available at TNMoC


The Ellie in your reference used delay lines in registers,
with weird bit time lengths. They were the main reason why
the machine was very fussy on the three-phase clock frequency.

/Everything/ was weird back then

Except, in the case of the 803 etc, Tony Hoare\'s Algol-60
compiler which was groundbreaking.

It was still was weird in the 1970s microprocessors. Consider
the RCA1802, the Motorola 14500, and what was that one
without an external address bus?

At least Intel 4004 and 4040. 3 power supplies and weird clocking.

Those are normal, if primitive.

The 14500 processor was a 1-bit machine.

The one without an external address bus was the Fairchild F8.
Its PC was contained in each of the support chips; must have been
fun fun fun if one got out of sync with the others!

The 1802 wasn\'t too odd, except that the PC was designated
by a 4-bit register under programmer control.

I agree on Hoare\'s Algol. It was a huge step forward from Autocode
and direct octal code input.

I did both, trimphantly reinventing a simple FSM in the latter case

The Algol compiler fitted in 4Kwords. I met Hoare once, and he
was surprised when I mentioned having used it

 

[ke...@kjwdesigns.com]

On Thursday, 13 August 2020 at 13:59:08 UTC-7, Tom Gardner wrote:
....

The 1802 wasn\'t too odd, except that the PC was designated
by a 4-bit register under programmer control.
I agree on Hoare\'s Algol. It was a huge step forward from Autocode
and direct octal code input.
I did both, trimphantly reinventing a simple FSM in the latter case

The Algol compiler fitted in 4Kwords. I met Hoare once, and he
was surprised when I mentioned having used it

The first computer I used was an Elliott 803, at Bangor University, with 8k words (it had a second cabinet for the additional 4k). We ran Algol with it which was loaded from paper tape, a 6\" diameter roll. The run time library was on a second slightly smaller roll of tape and had to be loaded with the executable from the compiler.

That machine had a 39-bit word, and used a serial architecture running at ~145kHz clock rate, with OC45 transistors giving about 0.003 Mips IIRC.

kw

 

[david eather]

On 10/08/2020 1:14 pm, Phil Allison wrote:

david eather wrote:


================

** Your Q is way too broad - the topic of tubes is ENORMOUS while current production involves only a few popular audio types.

FFS tell us what you ACTUALLY wish to know about.



..... Phil

A very fair question.

As a young lad I had no contact with valves. At uni I had no need to
know anything about them and studiously (is that even possible?) avoided
them. Now at home much more because of CV19, I have lots of spare time
and while it is not going to be a source of any income I would like to
fill at least some of my ignorance.

So I am looking for a good general introductory book on the subject. I
see lots of recommendations which I will go through \'till I find
something of the right level.

Alternatively with all this free time I could go out more, but
everywhere I am supposed to stand has a big black \'X\' on it, and I\'ve
seen too many Road Runner shows to fall for that!

 

[david eather]

On 11/08/2020 5:46 am, gray_wolf wrote:

On 10/08/2020 1:30 pm, Silvar Beitel wrote:
On Sunday, August 9, 2020 at 5:06:16 PM UTC-4, david eather wrote:
suggestions please
TIA

Dunno exactly what you\'re looking for, but the suggestions you\'ve
gotten so far are for books about designing *with* valves/tubes.
Another dimension is the design *of* valves/tubes.  If that\'s what
interests you, look up \"1940 RCA Vacuum Tube Design.\" (There are also
later editions.) You can find free PDFs on the web.  I find the
subject fascinating (and who knows, it may be relevant again in a
post-apocalyptic world )


Good question! I\'m wondering what the OP would do if he knew all about
tubes?
Build a HiFi amp? Guitar amp?

probably some nice warm audio amp I could claim superior to harsh
\'digital\' ones and flog them off for a fortune

 

[Tom Gardner]

On 14/08/20 00:54, ke...@kjwdesigns.com wrote:

On Thursday, 13 August 2020 at 13:59:08 UTC-7, Tom Gardner wrote:
...
The 1802 wasn\'t too odd, except that the PC was designated
by a 4-bit register under programmer control.
I agree on Hoare\'s Algol. It was a huge step forward from Autocode
and direct octal code input.
I did both, trimphantly reinventing a simple FSM in the latter case

The Algol compiler fitted in 4Kwords. I met Hoare once, and he
was surprised when I mentioned having used it

The first computer I used was an Elliott 803, at Bangor University, with 8k words (it had a second cabinet for the additional 4k). We ran Algol with it which was loaded from paper tape, a 6\" diameter roll. The run time library was on a second slightly smaller roll of tape and had to be loaded with the executable from the compiler.

That machine had a 39-bit word, and used a serial architecture running at ~145kHz clock rate, with OC45 transistors giving about 0.003 Mips IIRC.

I used one while was in the 6th form, in the neighbouring Ewell
Tech (now NESCOT).

I\'m not sure whether they loaded Algol from the paper tape, since
it also had the (sprocketed) magnetic film devices.

The instruction cycle time was 276us.

I almost went to Bangor, but Southampton was more convenient.

If you are ever near TNMoC, go and see one working, and listen
to it playing music (the high notes are very flat!). When I
mentioned I was an electronic engineers and had used one,
they whipped out the schematics and we discussed them.

Now that\'s what I call a /good/ museum. By comparison, Bletchley
Park next door is a bog-standard museum only worth seeing once.

 

[Tom Gardner]

On 14/08/20 06:05, david eather wrote:

On 11/08/2020 5:46 am, gray_wolf wrote:
On 10/08/2020 1:30 pm, Silvar Beitel wrote:
On Sunday, August 9, 2020 at 5:06:16 PM UTC-4, david eather wrote:
suggestions please
TIA

Dunno exactly what you\'re looking for, but the suggestions you\'ve gotten so
far are for books about designing *with* valves/tubes. Another dimension is
the design *of* valves/tubes.  If that\'s what interests you, look up \"1940
RCA Vacuum Tube Design.\" (There are also later editions.) You can find free
PDFs on the web.  I find the subject fascinating (and who knows, it may be
relevant again in a post-apocalyptic world )


Good question! I\'m wondering what the OP would do if he knew all about tubes?
Build a HiFi amp? Guitar amp?

probably some nice warm audio amp I could claim superior to harsh \'digital\' ones
and flog them off for a fortune

Audiofools have a reputation for buying Tek scopes and
stripping them of their valves.

 

[Phil Allison]

david eather who refuses to answer a simple question wrote:

===========================================================

** Your Q is way too broad - the topic of tubes is ENORMOUS while current production involves only a few popular audio types.

FFS tell us what you ACTUALLY wish to know about.


A very fair question.

** Which is still going unanswered.

As a young lad I had no contact with valves. At uni I had no need to
know anything about them and studiously (is that even possible?) avoided
them. Now at home much more because of CV19, I have lots of spare time
and while it is not going to be a source of any income I would like to
fill at least some of my ignorance.

** And you imagine reading a book will do that ?

So I am looking for a good general introductory book on the subject.

** What subject is that ?

We cannot reads your mind.

see lots of recommendations which I will go through \'till I find
something of the right level.

** So you are not going to answer the Q at all ?

Wot a PIA you are.


...... Phil

 

[Phil Allison]

Tom Gardner wrote:

----------------

Audiofools have a reputation for buying Tek scopes and
stripping them of their valves.

** Not audiophools as such - but cunning opportunists out to exploit their addiction. Much like illegal drug dealers really....



..... Phil

 

[Michael Terrell]

On Thursday, August 13, 2020 at 3:50:37 AM UTC-4, Phil Hobbs wrote:

On 2020-08-12 21:52, Michael Terrell wrote:
On Wednesday, August 12, 2020 at 2:15:56 PM UTC-4, Tauno Voipio
wrote:
On 10.8.20 0.06, david eather wrote:
suggestions please TIA

For transmitting use: The Care and Feeding of Power Grid Tubes, by
Eimac, if you can get hold of one. (I\'ll keep mine).


I\'d like to see the datasheets on the EEV Klystrons that were used in
a Comark UHF TV transmitter that I maintained. 65KW output, per tube.
It\'s bee over 30 years, so I don\'t remember their type number. It was
the last Comark built with Klystrons. The next transmitter used
Klystrodes, instead. Higher efficiency, less cooling required and
lower electric bills.


I didn\'t know about Klystrodes--pretty cool devices actually.

Even you can\'t be expected to know everything. Sadly some of the most interesting and useful tubes came too late to have a long, useful life. Digital TV killed off most or all of the remaining Tube transmitters, leaving that job to racks full of drawers of semiconductor trays connected to complex dividers and combiners. The only advantage is the CPU can power down and disconnect a damaged tray, while terminating the pair of unused ports. Harris was early into modular solid state transmitters. Their 5KW AM wasn\'t much more than a bunch of paralleled, modular SMPS, and filters. It did eliminate the need for a modulation transformer, but the bad new is that some stations transmit subsonics below 10Hz with them. The rumble from the speakers masks the desired audio.

 

[Tauno Voipio]

On 14.8.20 9.00, Tom Gardner wrote:

On 14/08/20 00:54, ke...@kjwdesigns.com wrote:
On Thursday, 13 August 2020 at 13:59:08 UTC-7, Tom Gardner wrote:
...
The 1802 wasn\'t too odd, except that the PC was designated
by a 4-bit register under programmer control.
I agree on Hoare\'s Algol. It was a huge step forward from Autocode
and direct octal code input.
I did both, trimphantly reinventing a simple FSM in the latter case

The Algol compiler fitted in 4Kwords. I met Hoare once, and he
was surprised when I mentioned having used it

The first computer I used was an Elliott 803, at Bangor University,
with 8k words (it had a second cabinet for the additional 4k). We ran
Algol with it which was loaded from paper tape, a 6\" diameter roll.
The run time library was on a second slightly smaller roll of tape and
had to be loaded with the executable from the compiler.

That machine had a 39-bit word, and used a serial architecture running
at ~145kHz clock rate, with OC45 transistors giving about 0.003 Mips
IIRC.

I used one while was in the 6th form, in the neighbouring Ewell
Tech (now NESCOT).

I\'m not sure whether they loaded Algol from the paper tape, since
it also had the (sprocketed) magnetic film devices.

The instruction cycle time was 276us.

I almost went to Bangor, but Southampton was more convenient.

If you are ever near TNMoC, go and see one working, and listen
to it playing music (the high notes are very flat!). When I
mentioned I was an electronic engineers and had used one,
they whipped out the schematics and we discussed them.

Now that\'s what I call a /good/ museum. By comparison, Bletchley
Park next door is a bog-standard museum only worth seeing once.

The basic cycle was 288 us, and most instructions used two cycles,
576 us. IIRC, the only single-cycle instructions were control transfers.

There were two instructions in a 39 bit word, 6 instruction code bits
and 13 address bits for 19 bits per instruction. The extra bit in
the instruction word was an address modifier bit: If it was on, the
address of the second part was indexed with the result of the first
part before use.

--

-TV