Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain...

[Don Y]

On 5/9/2025 5:20 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:

I figure whoever specified the fans must have considered
their efficiency so wouldn\'t want to go playing around
with alternate devices and discover something died
prematurely, as a result.

[And, lots of UPSs available for rescue.  I brought home
four 2200VA units two weeks ago and decided to scrap them
as they were double-conversion models.  I cut off the
#12AWG power cords and made four \"extension cords\" from
the set!]

Heh.

They are short (~10 ft) but will come in handy in the back yard,
garage, and kitchen as generic extension cords (despite having
NEMA 5-20Ps on the supply -- and load -- ends)

 

[Glen Walpert]

On Fri, 09 May 2025 12:22:02 -0400, Joe Gwinn wrote:

On Fri, 9 May 2025 14:18:53 +0200, \"Carlos E.R.\"
robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

On 2025-05-08 23:57, Don Y wrote:
That is a feature of UPS design that specsmanship to get the longest
run time for the sales datasheet means that they cook their
batteries. I have seen them swell to the point of bursting inside a
UPS. Thick rubber gloves needed to remove the remains. Support
metalwork was a real corroded rusty mess but electronics above it
remained OK.

That level of \"not working\" has not happened to me. Maybe because
some power failure makes me find out that the battery is dead.

I\'ve rescued a fair number of UPSs over the years.  In probably 80% of
them, the batteries have swollen to the point where removing the
battery or battery PACK is difficult.  This is especially true of the
\"better\" UPSs (sine output, 48V battery, metal fabrication) where
there is little \"give\" in the mechanical design.  Often one has to
disassemble the UPS to see where one can gain leverage on the battery
pack to force it from the case.

They really think I\'m going to buy their vastly overpriced
replacements?

I don\'t.

But last battery I replaced was not even two years old, rather 5
months short. I replaced it just in time to serve during the Gran
Apagón.

That\'s the problem; you don\'t KNOW how long a particular battery will
last,
even in an environment where it is never called on for backup!

Instead, you are forced into a \"reactive\" mode -- waiting for
something to tell you you\'re screwed and need a replacement, now!

My largest UPS uses 50 pound batteries (8 of them).

Are they 12 volts each, or just one cell?

On phone exchanges I saw huge batteries, actually individual cells
connected in series. 48 volts nominally, so 24 cells. I don\'t think they
were gel types, they needed adding water now and then.

The were most likely KS-20472 BELLCELL lead-acid battery cells,
originally made by Western Electric, or European equivalent. These are
2.2 volts per cell.

.<https://library.industrialsolutions.abb.com/publibrary/checkout/
107852477?TNR=Installation%20and%20Instruction%7C107852477%7CPDF

Joe

Back in the mid 80\'s I read a review of lead acid battery manufacturing
technology which listed the Western Electric round cell design as the most
reliable by far, with some batteries testing at higher capacity after 20
years in backup service than when new - benign environment and low cycles
noted - and average service life well over 10 years. The high reliability
is mostly due to the horizontal stack of symmetrical round plates which
can expand and contract due to charge/discharge with very low stress. The
other key is pure lead bus and plate grids made possible by the low stress
design - the lead-antimony alloy used in vertical plate batteries for
strength and low cost (recycled lead) corrodes much more rapidly.

Reminds me of one of the 2 major east coast blackouts, where the
transmission line lost due to an incorrect relay setting would have been a
minor incident except for the failure of an automatic switch to transfer
to the available and adequate alternate source due to long dead backup
batteries.

Glen

 

[Carlos E.R.]

On 2025-05-09 23:32, Don Y wrote:

On 5/9/2025 5:07 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
There are places where copper products (wire, plumbing) are stolen
for their \"recycle value\".  The solution, so far, has been to
require recyclers to get and record identification of people
bringing in such items.

Not enough, apparently.

The hut they vandalized has a notice board that says all the cables
are aluminum.

I wonder if the would-be thieves even bother to READ...

I think there have been cases of people trying to steal the wiring in
outside lighting systems -- and not taking adequate provisions to
protect against electrocution!

Yeah, here too. They even tried to rip the railway catenary at some
place. Some of those died on the spot.

How much \"protection\" do you think a SIGN would provide?  \"Hey, Bob,
don\'t these got electricity in them?\"

That was a different theft, eh? Different thieves, city, all.

I would like to make some backlit copper lighted displays for the house
(AZ is The Copper State) but am afraid its oxidized color would attract
some thief eager to make a few dollars off it.

Sigh.

Some places have copper roofs.

Yes.  We had looked into it (because it is far more durable than
virtually any other roofing material in common use, here (including
tile).  But, you need a minimum pitch to ensure the water doesn\'t
pool on the roof.

Yes, of course. Around here we have many flat roofed houses. Many of
those use aluminum foil with asphalt. If well done, it could hold a pool.

25€. A 9Ah item, high discharge rate.

Different grades exist, here.  If you buy from an electronics supplier
(e.g., Digikey), you will likely get a \"fairer\" price (value for money)
than a local battery store (which may be 50% higher).  UPS manufacturers
typically charge about double what a reasonable price might be (though
the usually assemble the batteries into the requisite \"packs\"...
a trivial exercise for even 48V units).

Let me check. The computer place here offers:

Phasak PHB 1209 Batería SAI/UPS 9Ah 12V        29,17€

Salicru UBT 12/9 Batería para SAI/UPS 9aH 12v    18,98€ (was 20,63€)

So the brand name battery replacement for my UPS is actually cheaper
than what I paid. Surprise!

The nominal 12V 7.2AHr batteries (also available at 9AHr in the same
case size) that many of my UPSs use are ~20-30, here, neglecting
shipping and tax.  Putting two (for smaller UPSs) or 4 in each UPS
gets pricey -- if you have to do it every 3 years (and have a dozen
UPSs)!

Indeed!

I\'ve tried a new configuration where I am hanging many of the
UPSs off a couple of larger units.  The thinking being that I
only have to maintain the larger units\' batteries (and still
get the benefits of a UPS per workstation).

Maybe just a big unit, and wiring around the place. Red coloured
sockets. Lilke in computer centres.

Digikey used to have a policy of free shipping for prepaid (cash)
orders.  I would buy batteries in lots of 10 and send prepayment.
Shipping charges can be a significant fraction of a battery\'s
cost.  They now exclude batteries from this policy (when I last
checked).

Right, they are very heavy. Yep, the place above charges 5.25€ for
shipping.

As I said, I try to rescue them (often I come across NiB UPSs
that some moron in IT ordered but opted not to install.
As the recycle value of batteries is just weight (regardless of
ability to hold a charge), I swap my dead batteries for such
new batteries and everyone is happy!

:-D

--
Cheers, Carlos.

 

[Carlos E.R.]

On 2025-05-09 23:41, Don Y wrote:
> On 5/9/2025 5:18 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:

....

When looking at specs for a replacement UPS, possibly an Eaton, I saw
they mentioned emitting a beep when battery is bad.

They likely don\'t load test, then.  Perhaps just watch the open
circuit voltage on the \"charged\" battery.

It is distressing how little the technology associated with
battery monitoring and charging has advanced in these sorts
of applications.  Again, likely because there is little
incentive to maximize battery life!

At my garage they have some gadgetry that I have not seen to test
batteries. I saw the one at the battery shop. I assume they put some
calibrated load on the battery and measure both voltage and current, and
make some estimate on battery life. The one at my garage has a printer,
I got the paper slip somewhere.


--
Cheers, Carlos.

 

[Don Y]

Yes, of course. Around here we have many flat roofed houses. Many of those use
aluminum foil with asphalt. If well done, it could hold a pool.

Sadly, organic debris accumulates on them. Then, water gets trapped
in the debris -- and slowly rots the roof in that location. Drainage
being important and hard to accomplish with low pitch.

I\'ve tried a new configuration where I am hanging many of the
UPSs off a couple of larger units.  The thinking being that I
only have to maintain the larger units\' batteries (and still
get the benefits of a UPS per workstation).

Maybe just a big unit, and wiring around the place. Red coloured sockets. Lilke
in computer centres.

Wiring *in* the structure would necessitate an inspection.
But, plugging three UPSs (with long power cords) into a
single UPS is acceptable. Then, the single UPS can
serve those three loads or any combination.

ONE set of batteries to replace (let the other three \"slaves\"
complain that they are missing batteries... who cares?!)

Digikey used to have a policy of free shipping for prepaid (cash)
orders.  I would buy batteries in lots of 10 and send prepayment.
Shipping charges can be a significant fraction of a battery\'s
cost.  They now exclude batteries from this policy (when I last
checked).

Right, they are very heavy. Yep, the place above charges 5.25€ for shipping.

As I said, I try to rescue them (often I come across NiB UPSs
that some moron in IT ordered but opted not to install.
As the recycle value of batteries is just weight (regardless of
ability to hold a charge), I swap my dead batteries for such
new batteries and everyone is happy!

:-D

An SLA battery is worth about 22c/pound for its lead content.
So, *taking* viable batteries is effectively theft (though on
a very small scale). Replacing them with an equivalent
weight of recyclable lead leave no grounds for objection:
\"How better to RECYCLE this *good* battery than to return it
to service?!\"

 

[Don Y]

On 5/9/2025 6:26 PM, Carlos E.R. wrote:

On 2025-05-09 23:41, Don Y wrote:
On 5/9/2025 5:18 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:

...

When looking at specs for a replacement UPS, possibly an Eaton, I saw they
mentioned emitting a beep when battery is bad.

They likely don\'t load test, then.  Perhaps just watch the open
circuit voltage on the \"charged\" battery.

It is distressing how little the technology associated with
battery monitoring and charging has advanced in these sorts
of applications.  Again, likely because there is little
incentive to maximize battery life!

At my garage they have some gadgetry that I have not seen to test batteries. I
saw the one at the battery shop. I assume they put some calibrated load on the
battery and measure both voltage and current, and make some estimate on battery
life. The one at my garage has a printer, I got the paper slip somewhere.

Yes. \"Load testing\". The goal being to determine the maximum
\"cold cranking amps\" that it can deliver to the starter at
a specific load voltage. There\'s some magic involved as the
CCA specification pertains to operation at 0C (or 0F? I don\'t
recall) and chances are, you\'re not going to be testing at that
temperature.

Cold temperatures impede the efficiency of the battery and, at the
same time, make the mechanical load appear larger. I think they
combine to represent about a 4X performance hit.

 

[Joe Gwinn]

On Fri, 9 May 2025 23:28:29 +0200, \"Carlos E.R.\"
<robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

On 2025-05-09 18:22, Joe Gwinn wrote:
On Fri, 9 May 2025 14:18:53 +0200, \"Carlos E.R.\"
robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

On 2025-05-08 23:57, Don Y wrote:
That is a feature of UPS design that specsmanship to get the longest
run time for the sales datasheet means that they cook their
batteries. I have seen them swell to the point of bursting inside a
UPS. Thick rubber gloves needed to remove the remains. Support
metalwork was a real corroded rusty mess but electronics above it
remained OK.

That level of \"not working\" has not happened to me. Maybe because some
power failure makes me find out that the battery is dead.

I\'ve rescued a fair number of UPSs over the years.  In probably 80% of
them, the batteries have swollen to the point where removing the battery
or battery PACK is difficult.  This is especially true of the \"better\"
UPSs (sine output, 48V battery, metal fabrication) where there is
little \"give\" in the mechanical design.  Often one has to disassemble
the UPS to see where one can gain leverage on the battery pack
to force it from the case.

They really think I\'m going to buy their vastly overpriced replacements?

I don\'t.

But last battery I replaced was not even two years old, rather 5
months short. I replaced it just in time to serve during the Gran Apagón.

That\'s the problem; you don\'t KNOW how long a particular battery will last,
even in an environment where it is never called on for backup!

Instead, you are forced into a \"reactive\" mode -- waiting for something
to tell you you\'re screwed and need a replacement, now!

My largest UPS uses 50 pound batteries (8 of them).

Are they 12 volts each, or just one cell?

On phone exchanges I saw huge batteries, actually individual cells
connected in series. 48 volts nominally, so 24 cells. I don\'t think they
were gel types, they needed adding water now and then.

The were most likely KS-20472 BELLCELL lead-acid battery cells,
originally made by Western Electric, or European equivalent. These
are 2.2 volts per cell.

.<https://library.industrialsolutions.abb.com/publibrary/checkout/107852477?TNR=Installation%20and%20Instruction%7C107852477%7CPDF

Those I saw were prismatic, not cylindrical.

OK. Later production is rectangular, largely to improve packing
density in the battery room.

The key was the nested alternating conical battery plates that allowed
the plates to grow and shrink without shorting.

Joe

 

[Carlos E.R.]

On 2025-05-10 04:37, Don Y wrote:

Yes, of course. Around here we have many flat roofed houses. Many of
those use aluminum foil with asphalt. If well done, it could hold a pool.

Sadly, organic debris accumulates on them.  Then, water gets trapped
in the debris -- and slowly rots the roof in that location.  Drainage
being important and hard to accomplish with low pitch.

The intense sun dries it up soon

I\'ve tried a new configuration where I am hanging many of the
UPSs off a couple of larger units.  The thinking being that I
only have to maintain the larger units\' batteries (and still
get the benefits of a UPS per workstation).

Maybe just a big unit, and wiring around the place. Red coloured
sockets. Lilke in computer centres.

Wiring *in* the structure would necessitate an inspection.
But, plugging three UPSs (with long power cords) into a
single UPS is acceptable.  Then, the single UPS can
serve those three loads or any combination.

Ah.

ONE set of batteries to replace (let the other three \"slaves\"
complain that they are missing batteries... who cares?!)

Why not remove those three UPS, and connect the loads direct to the main
UPS? :-?

Digikey used to have a policy of free shipping for prepaid (cash)
orders.  I would buy batteries in lots of 10 and send prepayment.
Shipping charges can be a significant fraction of a battery\'s
cost.  They now exclude batteries from this policy (when I last
checked).

Right, they are very heavy. Yep, the place above charges 5.25€ for
shipping.

As I said, I try to rescue them (often I come across NiB UPSs
that some moron in IT ordered but opted not to install.
As the recycle value of batteries is just weight (regardless of
ability to hold a charge), I swap my dead batteries for such
new batteries and everyone is happy!

:-D

An SLA battery is worth about 22c/pound for its lead content.
So, *taking* viable batteries is effectively theft (though on
a very small scale).  Replacing them with an equivalent
weight of recyclable lead leave no grounds for objection:
\"How better to RECYCLE this *good* battery than to return it
to service?!\"

Indeed

--
Cheers, Carlos.

 

[Carlos E.R.]

On 2025-05-10 14:03, Joe Gwinn wrote:

On Fri, 9 May 2025 23:28:29 +0200, \"Carlos E.R.\"
robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

On 2025-05-09 18:22, Joe Gwinn wrote:
On Fri, 9 May 2025 14:18:53 +0200, \"Carlos E.R.\"
robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

On 2025-05-08 23:57, Don Y wrote:
That is a feature of UPS design that specsmanship to get the longest
run time for the sales datasheet means that they cook their
batteries. I have seen them swell to the point of bursting inside a
UPS. Thick rubber gloves needed to remove the remains. Support
metalwork was a real corroded rusty mess but electronics above it
remained OK.

That level of \"not working\" has not happened to me. Maybe because some
power failure makes me find out that the battery is dead.

I\'ve rescued a fair number of UPSs over the years.  In probably 80% of
them, the batteries have swollen to the point where removing the battery
or battery PACK is difficult.  This is especially true of the \"better\"
UPSs (sine output, 48V battery, metal fabrication) where there is
little \"give\" in the mechanical design.  Often one has to disassemble
the UPS to see where one can gain leverage on the battery pack
to force it from the case.

They really think I\'m going to buy their vastly overpriced replacements?

I don\'t.

But last battery I replaced was not even two years old, rather 5
months short. I replaced it just in time to serve during the Gran Apagón.

That\'s the problem; you don\'t KNOW how long a particular battery will last,
even in an environment where it is never called on for backup!

Instead, you are forced into a \"reactive\" mode -- waiting for something
to tell you you\'re screwed and need a replacement, now!

My largest UPS uses 50 pound batteries (8 of them).

Are they 12 volts each, or just one cell?

On phone exchanges I saw huge batteries, actually individual cells
connected in series. 48 volts nominally, so 24 cells. I don\'t think they
were gel types, they needed adding water now and then.

The were most likely KS-20472 BELLCELL lead-acid battery cells,
originally made by Western Electric, or European equivalent. These
are 2.2 volts per cell.

.<https://library.industrialsolutions.abb.com/publibrary/checkout/107852477?TNR=Installation%20and%20Instruction%7C107852477%7CPDF

Those I saw were prismatic, not cylindrical.

OK. Later production is rectangular, largely to improve packing
density in the battery room.

The key was the nested alternating conical battery plates that allowed
the plates to grow and shrink without shorting.

I see. That, I do not remember.



--
Cheers, Carlos.

 

[Don Y]

On 5/10/2025 7:04 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:

On 2025-05-10 04:37, Don Y wrote:
Yes, of course. Around here we have many flat roofed houses. Many of those
use aluminum foil with asphalt. If well done, it could hold a pool.

Sadly, organic debris accumulates on them.  Then, water gets trapped
in the debris -- and slowly rots the roof in that location.  Drainage
being important and hard to accomplish with low pitch.

The intense sun dries it up soon

Not with pine needles in a corner of the roof shaded by said tree!

ONE set of batteries to replace (let the other three \"slaves\"
complain that they are missing batteries... who cares?!)

Why not remove those three UPS, and connect the loads direct to the main UPS?  :-?

Because the power cords of the UPSs are longer than the power cords of
each of the workstations AND THEIR ASSOCIATED PERIPHERALS.

Additionally, the UPS lets me monitor the power consumed by the
attached loads so I can figure out how much I can tax the
upstream UPS (when using multiple workstations)

 

[Joe Gwinn]

On Sat, 10 May 2025 16:05:35 +0200, \"Carlos E.R.\"
<robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

On 2025-05-10 14:03, Joe Gwinn wrote:
On Fri, 9 May 2025 23:28:29 +0200, \"Carlos E.R.\"
robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

On 2025-05-09 18:22, Joe Gwinn wrote:
On Fri, 9 May 2025 14:18:53 +0200, \"Carlos E.R.\"
robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

On 2025-05-08 23:57, Don Y wrote:
That is a feature of UPS design that specsmanship to get the longest
run time for the sales datasheet means that they cook their
batteries. I have seen them swell to the point of bursting inside a
UPS. Thick rubber gloves needed to remove the remains. Support
metalwork was a real corroded rusty mess but electronics above it
remained OK.

That level of \"not working\" has not happened to me. Maybe because some
power failure makes me find out that the battery is dead.

I\'ve rescued a fair number of UPSs over the years.  In probably 80% of
them, the batteries have swollen to the point where removing the battery
or battery PACK is difficult.  This is especially true of the \"better\"
UPSs (sine output, 48V battery, metal fabrication) where there is
little \"give\" in the mechanical design.  Often one has to disassemble
the UPS to see where one can gain leverage on the battery pack
to force it from the case.

They really think I\'m going to buy their vastly overpriced replacements?

I don\'t.

But last battery I replaced was not even two years old, rather 5
months short. I replaced it just in time to serve during the Gran Apagón.

That\'s the problem; you don\'t KNOW how long a particular battery will last,
even in an environment where it is never called on for backup!

Instead, you are forced into a \"reactive\" mode -- waiting for something
to tell you you\'re screwed and need a replacement, now!

My largest UPS uses 50 pound batteries (8 of them).

Are they 12 volts each, or just one cell?

On phone exchanges I saw huge batteries, actually individual cells
connected in series. 48 volts nominally, so 24 cells. I don\'t think they
were gel types, they needed adding water now and then.

The were most likely KS-20472 BELLCELL lead-acid battery cells,
originally made by Western Electric, or European equivalent. These
are 2.2 volts per cell.

.<https://library.industrialsolutions.abb.com/publibrary/checkout/107852477?TNR=Installation%20and%20Instruction%7C107852477%7CPDF

Those I saw were prismatic, not cylindrical.

OK. Later production is rectangular, largely to improve packing
density in the battery room.

The key was the nested alternating conical battery plates that allowed
the plates to grow and shrink without shorting.

I see. That, I do not remember.

There was a set of articles in the Bell System Technical Journal on
the evolution and design of those batteries, which were a considerable
advance in their day. If we can find the issue number, these articles
are free.

Joe

 

[Carlos E.R.]

On 2025-05-10 18:13, Don Y wrote:

On 5/10/2025 7:04 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-05-10 04:37, Don Y wrote:
Yes, of course. Around here we have many flat roofed houses. Many of
those use aluminum foil with asphalt. If well done, it could hold a
pool.

Sadly, organic debris accumulates on them.  Then, water gets trapped
in the debris -- and slowly rots the roof in that location.  Drainage
being important and hard to accomplish with low pitch.

The intense sun dries it up soon

Not with pine needles in a corner of the roof shaded by said tree!

Ok...

ONE set of batteries to replace (let the other three \"slaves\"
complain that they are missing batteries... who cares?!)

Why not remove those three UPS, and connect the loads direct to the
main UPS?  :-?

Because the power cords of the UPSs are longer than the power cords of
each of the workstations AND THEIR ASSOCIATED PERIPHERALS.

I\'d just use a cable extender.

Additionally, the UPS lets me monitor the power consumed by the
attached loads so I can figure out how much I can tax the
upstream UPS (when using multiple workstations)

Ok, that\'s a powerful reason


--
Cheers, Carlos.

 

[Carlos E.R.]

On 2025-05-10 05:52, Don Y wrote:

On 5/9/2025 6:26 PM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-05-09 23:41, Don Y wrote:
On 5/9/2025 5:18 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:

...

When looking at specs for a replacement UPS, possibly an Eaton, I
saw they mentioned emitting a beep when battery is bad.

They likely don\'t load test, then.  Perhaps just watch the open
circuit voltage on the \"charged\" battery.

It is distressing how little the technology associated with
battery monitoring and charging has advanced in these sorts
of applications.  Again, likely because there is little
incentive to maximize battery life!

At my garage they have some gadgetry that I have not seen to test
batteries. I saw the one at the battery shop. I assume they put some
calibrated load on the battery and measure both voltage and current,
and make some estimate on battery life. The one at my garage has a
printer, I got the paper slip somewhere.

Yes.  \"Load testing\".  The goal being to determine the maximum
\"cold cranking amps\" that it can deliver to the starter at
a specific load voltage.  There\'s some magic involved as the
CCA specification pertains to operation at 0C (or 0F?  I don\'t
recall) and chances are, you\'re not going to be testing at that
temperature.

Cold temperatures impede the efficiency of the battery and, at the
same time, make the mechanical load appear larger.  I think they
combine to represent about a 4X performance hit.

The paper slip says they tested 12.4 volts and 279A.


I copy the text of the slip,

???813 (part of the paper ripped out by the stapler)
FGA
V1.00 EU

.....

PRUEBA BATERíA
CORRECTA-CARGUE

VOLTAJE 12.40V
MEDIDO 279 A(EN)

CODIGO PRUEBA (test code)
XXXXXXXXX

CLASF 360 A(EN)
TEMPERATURA 20°C (temp)

UBICACIÓN BAT. EN EL VEHICULO (battery is on the vehicle)
UBIC PRUEBA BORNE ARRIBA (terminal up ?)
TIPO DE BAT. NORMAL/AUTO

Then there are two graphs. One is health, which shows about 75%, and another is \"EDC\", which marks 75%.


--
Cheers, Carlos.

 

[Don Y]

On 5/11/2025 6:04 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:

On 2025-05-10 18:13, Don Y wrote:
On 5/10/2025 7:04 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-05-10 04:37, Don Y wrote:
Yes, of course. Around here we have many flat roofed houses. Many of those
use aluminum foil with asphalt. If well done, it could hold a pool.

Sadly, organic debris accumulates on them.  Then, water gets trapped
in the debris -- and slowly rots the roof in that location.  Drainage
being important and hard to accomplish with low pitch.

The intense sun dries it up soon

Not with pine needles in a corner of the roof shaded by said tree!

Ok...

Most frontier style roofs, here, have a wall that surrounds the
roof (three sides) above the roof level. So, there is always a
dead spot where debris accumulates (you can see it swirl in these
little pockets as the wind blows).

And, depending on the season, the sun may be lower in the sky
thus creating a permanent shadow near that wall.

We have one \"bad spot\" where I regularly \"harvest\" 20-30 cubic
feet of pine needles, several times each year. I use a \"snow
shovel\" to lift them up over that wall and down onto the ground,
below, where I can later rake them up and discard them.

Pine needles acidify the \"solution\" formed when wet.

ONE set of batteries to replace (let the other three \"slaves\"
complain that they are missing batteries... who cares?!)

Why not remove those three UPS, and connect the loads direct to the main
UPS?  :-?

Because the power cords of the UPSs are longer than the power cords of
each of the workstations AND THEIR ASSOCIATED PERIPHERALS.

I\'d just use a cable extender.

You need to have multiple receptacles on the load end as there
are multiple loads to be plugged to each UPS. I.e., use an
outlet strip. Hey! A UPS can act as an outlet strip! :>

The UPS per workstation was a handy approach as it let me power down
(or up) everything that the workstation would typically need,
beyond just the \"CPU\". E.g., scanners, digitizing tablets,
external drives, etc.

Additionally, the UPS lets me monitor the power consumed by the
attached loads so I can figure out how much I can tax the
upstream UPS (when using multiple workstations)

Ok, that\'s a powerful reason

 

[Carlos E.R.]

On 2025-05-11 15:46, Don Y wrote:

On 5/11/2025 6:04 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-05-10 18:13, Don Y wrote:
On 5/10/2025 7:04 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-05-10 04:37, Don Y wrote:
Yes, of course. Around here we have many flat roofed houses. Many
of those use aluminum foil with asphalt. If well done, it could
hold a pool.

Sadly, organic debris accumulates on them.  Then, water gets trapped
in the debris -- and slowly rots the roof in that location.  Drainage
being important and hard to accomplish with low pitch.

The intense sun dries it up soon

Not with pine needles in a corner of the roof shaded by said tree!

Ok...

Most frontier style roofs, here, have a wall that surrounds the
roof (three sides) above the roof level.  So, there is always a
dead spot where debris accumulates (you can see it swirl in these
little pockets as the wind blows).

And, depending on the season, the sun may be lower in the sky
thus creating a permanent shadow near that wall.

We have one \"bad spot\" where I regularly \"harvest\" 20-30 cubic
feet of pine needles, several times each year.  I use a \"snow
shovel\" to lift them up over that wall and down onto the ground,
below, where I can later rake them up and discard them.

Pine needles acidify the \"solution\" formed when wet.

I had a place near the beach with such a flat roof. No pines over there.

ONE set of batteries to replace (let the other three \"slaves\"
complain that they are missing batteries... who cares?!)

Why not remove those three UPS, and connect the loads direct to the
main UPS?  :-?

Because the power cords of the UPSs are longer than the power cords of
each of the workstations AND THEIR ASSOCIATED PERIPHERALS.

I\'d just use a cable extender.

You need to have multiple receptacles on the load end as there
are multiple loads to be plugged to each UPS.  I.e., use an
outlet strip.  Hey! A UPS can act as an outlet strip!  :

The UPS per workstation was a handy approach as it let me power down
(or up) everything that the workstation would typically need,
beyond just the \"CPU\".  E.g., scanners, digitizing tablets,
external drives, etc.

Sure, yes. My extenders have multiple receptacles, typically 3, and 5
metres. There are many choices in the supermarket or in Amazon. Many
have a switch. Some of them have surge protection and filtering.

Additionally, the UPS lets me monitor the power consumed by the
attached loads so I can figure out how much I can tax the
upstream UPS (when using multiple workstations)

Ok, that\'s a powerful reason

--
Cheers, Carlos.

 

[Don Y]

On 5/11/2025 12:25 PM, Carlos E.R. wrote:

Not with pine needles in a corner of the roof shaded by said tree!

Ok...

Most frontier style roofs, here, have a wall that surrounds the
roof (three sides) above the roof level.  So, there is always a
dead spot where debris accumulates (you can see it swirl in these
little pockets as the wind blows).

And, depending on the season, the sun may be lower in the sky
thus creating a permanent shadow near that wall.

We have one \"bad spot\" where I regularly \"harvest\" 20-30 cubic
feet of pine needles, several times each year.  I use a \"snow
shovel\" to lift them up over that wall and down onto the ground,
below, where I can later rake them up and discard them.

Pine needles acidify the \"solution\" formed when wet.

I had a place near the beach with such a flat roof. No pines over there.

Pines are some of the few \"tall trees\" that we have, here -- easily
growing to 50 ft. Their needles shed continuously (not at a single
season like deciduous trees).

A neighbor with three such trees recently felled theirs. This appears
to have dramatically reduced the accumulation on the roof (despite
a 25 ft pine being located nearby).

I suspect the number of such tall pines falling in local microbursts
may have played a part in their decision to remove the trees. Previously,
they had claimed any of the trees falling on our property would be treated
as \"act of god\" in terms of insurance coverage. I suspect they eventually
realized said trees falling onto THEIR property would similarly be treated!

oops!

Because the power cords of the UPSs are longer than the power cords of
each of the workstations AND THEIR ASSOCIATED PERIPHERALS.

I\'d just use a cable extender.

You need to have multiple receptacles on the load end as there
are multiple loads to be plugged to each UPS.  I.e., use an
outlet strip.  Hey! A UPS can act as an outlet strip!  :

The UPS per workstation was a handy approach as it let me power down
(or up) everything that the workstation would typically need,
beyond just the \"CPU\".  E.g., scanners, digitizing tablets,
external drives, etc.

Sure, yes. My extenders have multiple receptacles, typically 3, and 5 metres.
There are many choices in the supermarket or in Amazon. Many have a switch.
Some of them have surge protection and filtering.

My \"outlet strips\" support 6 receptacles, fused and with switch/indicator.
But, these need to be secured to <something> to avoid flailing around
as connected loads are moved, rearranged, etc.

The UPSs fit nicely atop each associated tower. Even without the mass of
their internal batteries (removed in favor of the upstream UPS), the
UPS sits in place -- presenting its display (and controls) to the
front where they are easily accessed. The USB port lets the workstation
talk to the UPS while the NIC lets the network talk to it.

And, they are essentially free (my outlet strips were $30/each). Their value
lies in the lead content of their batteries which, if depleted, have no value
to *me* (so can be left behind).