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Fwd: OT: Items in a metal box are cooler?...

J

John Doe

Guest
1. I did not post to this group, a nym-shifting stalker troll did
that.

2. I have already made perfectly clear in follow-up posts that my
post elsewhere was mistaken.

3. There is no need to pollute this thread/group with more netcop
troll garbage when you are not cognizant enough to see what has
transpired...

--
jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:

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From: jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com
Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
Subject: Re: Fwd: OT: Items in a metal box are cooler?
Date: Thu, 06 Aug 2020 19:08:49 -0700
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On Thu, 6 Aug 2020 21:45:12 -0400, Phil Hobbs
pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

On 2020-08-06 18:45, George Herold wrote:
On Thursday, August 6, 2020 at 3:29:58 PM UTC-4, Phil Hobbs wrote:
On 2020-08-05 17:50, Clive Arthur wrote:
On 05/08/2020 18:29, Corvid wrote:

Metal is cooler than ambient temperature?

Is the temperature inside of a metal box cooler than ambient
temperature?

I need to look. If that is so. Can be used for storing medicine and
maybe other things.


I have a metal box in my kitchen and the temperature inside is
definitely cooler than ambient.ÿ I use it for storing things other than
medicine.

I have one of those too, and another one where it\'s sometimes much much
warmer than ambient, but weirdly it doesn\'t do it all the time. (More
often in cooler weather, I notice.)

The really mysterious one is this metal cup I\'m drinking from right now.

\"It\'s the greatest invention in the world! It keeps hot things hot and
cold things cold!...how _do_ it know?\"

Thin walled SS is a pretty good metallic insulator.
Silver plated glass (or some such) was the first Dewar. :^)
George H.


Right, but we\'re all busy teasing \"John Doe\" at the moment, because that
nym desperately deserves it for all those sanctimonious posts about
\"silly trolls\" and so on.

I wonder if anyone\'s mom ever named anyone \"John Doe\". (Or for that
matter, \"Fred Bloggs\" or \"Larry Lunchbucket\" (rough USAian for \"Fred
Bloggs\").)


He must be a criminal. He seems to spend a lot of time in courts.



--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

Science teaches us to doubt.

Claude Bernard
 
J

John Doe

Guest
1. I did not post to this group, a nym-shifting stalker troll did
that.

2. I have already made perfectly clear in follow-up posts that my
post elsewhere was mistaken.

3. There is no need to pollute this thread/group with more netcop
troll garbage when you are not cognizant enough to see what has
transpired...

--
jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:

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From: jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com
Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
Subject: Re: Fwd: OT: Items in a metal box are cooler?
Date: Thu, 06 Aug 2020 19:08:49 -0700
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On Thu, 6 Aug 2020 21:45:12 -0400, Phil Hobbs
pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

On 2020-08-06 18:45, George Herold wrote:
On Thursday, August 6, 2020 at 3:29:58 PM UTC-4, Phil Hobbs wrote:
On 2020-08-05 17:50, Clive Arthur wrote:
On 05/08/2020 18:29, Corvid wrote:

Metal is cooler than ambient temperature?

Is the temperature inside of a metal box cooler than ambient
temperature?

I need to look. If that is so. Can be used for storing medicine and
maybe other things.


I have a metal box in my kitchen and the temperature inside is
definitely cooler than ambient.ÿ I use it for storing things other than
medicine.

I have one of those too, and another one where it\'s sometimes much much
warmer than ambient, but weirdly it doesn\'t do it all the time. (More
often in cooler weather, I notice.)

The really mysterious one is this metal cup I\'m drinking from right now.

\"It\'s the greatest invention in the world! It keeps hot things hot and
cold things cold!...how _do_ it know?\"

Thin walled SS is a pretty good metallic insulator.
Silver plated glass (or some such) was the first Dewar. :^)
George H.


Right, but we\'re all busy teasing \"John Doe\" at the moment, because that
nym desperately deserves it for all those sanctimonious posts about
\"silly trolls\" and so on.

I wonder if anyone\'s mom ever named anyone \"John Doe\". (Or for that
matter, \"Fred Bloggs\" or \"Larry Lunchbucket\" (rough USAian for \"Fred
Bloggs\").)


He must be a criminal. He seems to spend a lot of time in courts.



--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

Science teaches us to doubt.

Claude Bernard
 
J

John Doe

Guest
1. I did not post to this group, a nym-shifting stalker troll did
that.

2. I have already made perfectly clear in follow-up posts that my
post elsewhere was mistaken.

3. There is no need to pollute this thread/group with more netcop
troll garbage when you are not cognizant enough to see what has
transpired...

--
Ricketty C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:

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On Thursday, August 6, 2020 at 10:08:59 PM UTC-4, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Thu, 6 Aug 2020 21:45:12 -0400, Phil Hobbs
pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:


I wonder if anyone\'s mom ever named anyone \"John Doe\". (Or for that
matter, \"Fred Bloggs\" or \"Larry Lunchbucket\" (rough USAian for \"Fred
Bloggs\").)


He must be a criminal. He seems to spend a lot of time in courts.

I think he turns up in morgues a lot. How can you keep reappearing in the morgue???

--

Rick C.

--- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
--- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
 
J

John Doe

Guest
1. I did not post to this group, a nym-shifting stalker troll did
that.

2. I have already made perfectly clear in follow-up posts that my
post elsewhere was mistaken.

3. There is no need to pollute this thread/group with more netcop
troll garbage when you are not cognizant enough to see what has
transpired...

--
pcdhobbs@gmail.com wrote:

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I think he turns up in morgues a lot.
How can you keep reappearing in the >morgue???

Sometimes that gets sorted out:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glyndwr_Michael

Cheers

Phil Hobbs
 
J

John Doe

Guest
1. I did not post to this group, a nym-shifting stalker troll did
that.

2. I have already made perfectly clear in follow-up posts that my
post elsewhere was mistaken.

3. There is no need to pollute this thread/group with more netcop
troll garbage when you are not cognizant enough to see what has
transpired...

--
Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

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Subject: Re: Fwd: OT: Items in a metal box are cooler?
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On 2020-08-06 22:08, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Thu, 6 Aug 2020 21:45:12 -0400, Phil Hobbs
pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

On 2020-08-06 18:45, George Herold wrote:
On Thursday, August 6, 2020 at 3:29:58 PM UTC-4, Phil Hobbs wrote:
On 2020-08-05 17:50, Clive Arthur wrote:
On 05/08/2020 18:29, Corvid wrote:

Metal is cooler than ambient temperature?

Is the temperature inside of a metal box cooler than ambient
temperature?

I need to look. If that is so. Can be used for storing medicine and
maybe other things.


I have a metal box in my kitchen and the temperature inside is
definitely cooler than ambient.¶ÿ I use it for storing things other than
medicine.

I have one of those too, and another one where it\'s sometimes much much
warmer than ambient, but weirdly it doesn\'t do it all the time. (More
often in cooler weather, I notice.)

The really mysterious one is this metal cup I\'m drinking from right now.

\"It\'s the greatest invention in the world! It keeps hot things hot and
cold things cold!...how _do_ it know?\"

Thin walled SS is a pretty good metallic insulator.
Silver plated glass (or some such) was the first Dewar. :^)
George H.


Right, but we\'re all busy teasing \"John Doe\" at the moment, because that
nym desperately deserves it for all those sanctimonious posts about
\"silly trolls\" and so on.

I wonder if anyone\'s mom ever named anyone \"John Doe\". (Or for that
matter, \"Fred Bloggs\" or \"Larry Lunchbucket\" (rough USAian for \"Fred
Bloggs\").)


He must be a criminal. He seems to spend a lot of time in courts.

Good point. Must be the bad influence of his sister Jane and her
no-good husband Richard Roe.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs
 
P

Phil Hobbs

Guest
On 2020-08-06 23:06, John Doe wrote:
1. I did not post to this group, a nym-shifting stalker troll did
that.

2. I have already made perfectly clear in follow-up posts that my
post elsewhere was mistaken.

3. There is no need to pollute this thread/group with more netcop
troll garbage when you are not cognizant enough to see what has
transpired...
You seem to think that that means you don\'t need teasing on account of
your iterated \"silly troll\" nonsense, but of course you do. How about
having a good laugh at yourself and moving on? Works for the rest of us.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

http://electrooptical.net
http://hobbs-eo.com
 
J

John Doe

Guest
1. I did not post to this group, a nym-shifting stalker troll did
that.

2. I have already made perfectly clear in follow-up posts that my
post elsewhere was mistaken.

3. There is no need to pollute this thread/group with more netcop
troll garbage when you are not cognizant enough to see what has
transpired...

--
Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

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Subject: Re: Fwd: OT: Items in a metal box are cooler?
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On 2020-08-06 23:06, John Doe wrote:
1. I did not post to this group, a nym-shifting stalker troll did
that.

2. I have already made perfectly clear in follow-up posts that my
post elsewhere was mistaken.

3. There is no need to pollute this thread/group with more netcop
troll garbage when you are not cognizant enough to see what has
transpired...


You seem to think that that means you don\'t need teasing on account of
your iterated \"silly troll\" nonsense, but of course you do. How about
having a good laugh at yourself and moving on? Works for the rest of us.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

http://electrooptical.net
http://hobbs-eo.com
 
W

whit3rd

Guest
On Thursday, August 6, 2020 at 7:11:58 PM UTC-7, Dave Platt wrote:
In article <f9roif17pj0mbrjrj8gku5p5i0tgqth95a@4ax.com>,
John Larkin <xx@yy.com> wrote:
I you built a good reflector (copper bowl, copperclad FR4, something
like that) and put something at the focal point, and point it at the
sky at night, I wonder how cold you could make the thing.

You don\'t need a lot of visual \"gain\" in this situation. All you need
is a reflector below the object which reflects \"dark sky\". It won\'t
matter very much which part of the dark sky you aim towards.
The principle of \'superinsulation\' is multiple radiation shields; if you have five
layers of space blanket (aluminized mylar), the fourth-power law means
that (assuming thermal conductivity of supports can be minimized)
a hemisphere of dark sky at 4K absorbs heat from the target.
The target then can tolerate a small radiation of heat from its layer-5 sunshield,
which can then tolerte 1W of heat from its layer-4 sunshield, etc.
If the layer-1 is at \'normal ambient\' (circa 300K at earth-orbit distance from the sun),
the radiative thermal resistance of five layers in series is... enormous,
because those resistances are in series.

Some glasses are strong, but very poor heat conductors at low temperature.
 
J

Jasen Betts

Guest
On 2020-08-06, John Doe <always.look@message.header> wrote:
1. I did not post to this group, a nym-shifting stalker troll did
that.

2. I have already made perfectly clear in follow-up posts that my
post elsewhere was mistaken.

3. There is no need to pollute this thread/group with more netcop
troll garbage when you are not cognizant enough to see what has
transpired...
I see that you\'re persisting with your lie in point 2

Point 3, there\'s no no need to respond if you\'re not changing your
position.

--
Jasen.
 
J

John Doe

Guest
1. I did not post to this group, a nym-shifting stalker troll did
that.

2. I have already made perfectly clear in follow-up posts that my
post elsewhere was mistaken.

3. There is no need to pollute this thread/group with more netcop
troll garbage when you are not cognizant enough to see what has
transpired...


--
Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz> wrote:

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From: Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz
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Subject: Re: OT: Items in a metal box are cooler?
Organization: JJ\'s own news server
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On 2020-08-06, John Doe <always.look@message.header> wrote:
1. I did not post to this group, a nym-shifting stalker troll did
that.

2. I have already made perfectly clear in follow-up posts that my
post elsewhere was mistaken.

3. There is no need to pollute this thread/group with more netcop
troll garbage when you are not cognizant enough to see what has
transpired...

I see that you\'re persisting with your lie in point 2

Point 3, there\'s no no need to respond if you\'re not changing your
position.

--
Jasen.
 
M

Martin Brown

Guest
On 07/08/2020 00:13, Joe Gwinn wrote:
On Thu, 6 Aug 2020 22:54:03 +0100, Martin Brown
\'\'\'newspam\'\'\'@nonad.co.uk> wrote:

At radar frequencies, the temperature of the sky is 50 K (degrees
Kelvin, not Centigrade), but don\'t look at the Sun or the Moon.
Most of the modern sensitive radio telescopes are Cassegrain for eaxctly
this reason far better to have the receiver facing up at the sky than
down at the noisy ground. Early scopes didn\'t really have much option.
For comparison, molecular Nitrogen boils at 77 K.
In the visible and near IR on a good clear night with low humidity the
characteristic temperature of the sky radiation is roughly 80K. In the
UK summer we sometimes see electric blue noctilucent clouds forming high
enough in the stratosphere to catch sunlight long after dark.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown
 
J

Jasen Betts

Guest
On 2020-08-07, John Doe <always.look@message.header> wrote:

2. I have already made perfectly clear in follow-up posts that my
post elsewhere was mistaken.
You mean it was made clear to you.

--
Jasen.
 
J

John Doe

Guest
1. I did not post to this group, a nym-shifting stalker troll did
that.

2. I have already made perfectly clear in follow-up posts that my
post elsewhere was mistaken.

3. There is no need to pollute this thread/group with more netcop
troll garbage when you are not cognizant enough to see what has
transpired...


--
Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz> wrote:

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From: Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz
Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design,free.spam
Subject: Re: OT: Items in a metal box are cooler?
Organization: JJ\'s own news server
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On 2020-08-07, John Doe <always.look@message.header> wrote:

2. I have already made perfectly clear in follow-up posts that my
post elsewhere was mistaken.

You mean it was made clear to you.

--
Jasen.
 
S

server

Guest
On Thu, 6 Aug 2020 23:37:34 -0400, Phil Hobbs
<pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

On 2020-08-06 23:14, top-posting manipulator John Doe wrote:

Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote
On 2020-08-06 23:06, John Doe wrote:
1. I did not post to this group, a nym-shifting stalker troll
did that.

2. I have already made perfectly clear in follow-up posts that
my post elsewhere was mistaken.

3. There is no need to pollute this thread/group with more
netcop troll garbage when you are not cognizant enough to see
what has transpired...


You seem to think that that means you don\'t need teasing on account
of your iterated \"silly troll\" nonsense, but of course you do. How
about having a good laugh at yourself and moving on? Works for the
rest of us.

1. I did not post to this group, a nym-shifting stalker troll did
that.

2. I have already made perfectly clear in follow-up posts that my
post elsewhere was mistaken.

3. There is no need to pollute this thread/group with more netcop
troll garbage when you are not cognizant enough to see what has
transpired...


You need to fix your jukebox--the record\'s broken again.

If you\'re willing to quit with the top-posting \"silly troll\" crapola
(*), you might actually find friends here--you never know till you try.
You could post something substantive about electronics, perhaps.

It\'s not about having posted something that was factually wrong--I\'ve
done that, we all have, no worries. (One time I spent several posts in
a row defending the idea that group delay is the same as true delay,
till JL gently eased me down off the tree limb.)
I wasn\'t doing any heavy network theory, I just wanted to hack a phase
shifter. It was just a visual thing about merging a couple of curves.

I never understood group delay anyhow.



--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

Science teaches us to doubt.

Claude Bernard
 
J

John Doe

Guest
1. I did not post to this group, a nym-shifting stalker troll did
that.

2. I have already made perfectly clear in follow-up posts that my
post elsewhere was mistaken.

3. There is no need to pollute this thread/group with more netcop
troll garbage when you are not cognizant enough to see what has
transpired...


--
jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:

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From: jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com
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Subject: Re: Fwd: OT: Items in a metal box are cooler?
Date: Fri, 07 Aug 2020 08:55:40 -0700
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On Thu, 6 Aug 2020 23:37:34 -0400, Phil Hobbs
pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

On 2020-08-06 23:14, top-posting manipulator John Doe wrote:

Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote
On 2020-08-06 23:06, John Doe wrote:
1. I did not post to this group, a nym-shifting stalker troll
did that.

2. I have already made perfectly clear in follow-up posts that
my post elsewhere was mistaken.

3. There is no need to pollute this thread/group with more
netcop troll garbage when you are not cognizant enough to see
what has transpired...


You seem to think that that means you don\'t need teasing on account
of your iterated \"silly troll\" nonsense, but of course you do. How
about having a good laugh at yourself and moving on? Works for the
rest of us.

1. I did not post to this group, a nym-shifting stalker troll did
that.

2. I have already made perfectly clear in follow-up posts that my
post elsewhere was mistaken.

3. There is no need to pollute this thread/group with more netcop
troll garbage when you are not cognizant enough to see what has
transpired...


You need to fix your jukebox--the record\'s broken again.

If you\'re willing to quit with the top-posting \"silly troll\" crapola
(*), you might actually find friends here--you never know till you try.
You could post something substantive about electronics, perhaps.

It\'s not about having posted something that was factually wrong--I\'ve
done that, we all have, no worries. (One time I spent several posts in
a row defending the idea that group delay is the same as true delay,
till JL gently eased me down off the tree limb.)

I wasn\'t doing any heavy network theory, I just wanted to hack a phase
shifter. It was just a visual thing about merging a couple of curves.

I never understood group delay anyhow.



--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

Science teaches us to doubt.

Claude Bernard
 
M

Martin Brown

Guest
On 06/08/2020 23:45, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
fredag den 7. august 2020 kl. 00.29.12 UTC+2 skrev John Larkin:
On Thu, 6 Aug 2020 14:04:04 -0700 (PDT), Lasse Langwadt Christensen
langwadt@fonz.dk> wrote:

torsdag den 6. august 2020 kl. 22.57.10 UTC+2 skrev John Larkin:

I you built a good reflector (copper bowl, copperclad FR4, something
like that) and put something at the focal point, and point it at the
sky at night, I wonder how cold you could make the thing.

I don\'t see how a reflector is going to help make something cold

Space has a radiative temperature of a few K. A blackbody way out in
space will eventually get that cold. On Earth, we\'d need it to think
it\'s in space, namely all that it sees in all directions looks like
space. We wouldn\'t want it to be exposed to anything warm, like the
ground.

A deep gold-plated parabola would be good, aiming at the sky.

but that only takes care of radiation, so unless the thing you are trying
to cool is perfectly insulated like in the vacuum of space ...
It is a routine trick in cryogenics to put a radiation shield in between
a cryostat and outside to greatly decrease the thermal losses.

It still works in air but you do have to isolate the surface from the
bulk material of the ground. You see it happen every night with the dew
forming on car roofs first as an example of faster radiative cooling.

The object reaches an equilibrium when the net flux of radiation from it
is balanced by the thermal transfer of heat from the air and ground. The
more sky at ~80K it sees and less ground at 300K the cooler it can get.

It isn\'t a huge effect but it gets you an extra few degrees net cooling.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown
 
M

Mike Coon

Guest
In article <f9roif17pj0mbrjrj8gku5p5i0tgqth95a@4ax.com>,
jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com says...
If you built a good reflector (copper bowl, copperclad FR4, something
like that) and put something at the focal point, and point it at the
sky at night, I wonder how cold you could make the thing.

Tall parabolic shape maybe, the opposite of a solar furnace.

This would obviously be a little bit of free energy.
That\'s very funny!

In a vacuum, a floating object will only get (or lose) heat by
radiation. So the temperature it reaches depends on the radiation it
receives from the complete sphere around it. Power in radiation
increases as the fourth power of absolute temperature of the radiating
surface (at least if it is perfectly \"black\"!).

So even if a perfect reflector acts as if it were deep space at a few
degrees absolute (dubious!), it is going to be massively overwhelmed at
the focal point by radiation from the surroundings other than that
surface.

Pity, though; intriguing idea...

Mike.
 
S

server

Guest
On Sat, 8 Aug 2020 16:36:17 +0100, Mike Coon <gravity@mjcoon.plus.com>
wrote:

In article <f9roif17pj0mbrjrj8gku5p5i0tgqth95a@4ax.com>,
jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com says...

If you built a good reflector (copper bowl, copperclad FR4, something
like that) and put something at the focal point, and point it at the
sky at night, I wonder how cold you could make the thing.

Tall parabolic shape maybe, the opposite of a solar furnace.

This would obviously be a little bit of free energy.

That\'s very funny!

In a vacuum, a floating object will only get (or lose) heat by
radiation. So the temperature it reaches depends on the radiation it
receives from the complete sphere around it. Power in radiation
increases as the fourth power of absolute temperature of the radiating
surface (at least if it is perfectly \"black\"!).
I think it\'s 4th power at any emissivity.

So even if a perfect reflector acts as if it were deep space at a few
degrees absolute (dubious!), it is going to be massively overwhelmed at
the focal point by radiation from the surroundings other than that
surface.
The idea is to shield it from radiation from local warm stuff. Pretty
much simple optics. Solder up a cone from copperclad FR4; it\'s an
excellent reflector at thermal wavelengths.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ie7yzt6opasa0le/Cool1.JPG?raw=1

https://www.dropbox.com/s/uem00xept19rl3h/Cool2.jpg?raw=1

Pity, though; intriguing idea...

Mike.
Things are cooled by radiation into the night sky. A proper reflector
can enhance radiation cooling.

Google freeze at night in the desert



--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

Science teaches us to doubt.

Claude Bernard
 
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