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Fwd: OT: Items in a metal box are cooler?...

J

Jasen Betts

Guest
On 2020-08-05, John Doe <always.look@message.header> wrote:
I\'m trying to take advantage of the FACT metal is much cooler than
ambient room temperature.
Capital letters (or shouting) will not turn a falsehood into a truth.

> The concept I posted, or something similar, is reasonable.

If you count a normal refrigerator as \"similar\": it\'s a metal box
that\'s cooler on the inside, then \"yes\", something similar is
reasonable.

> Some close-minded people tend to dismiss new ideas outright...

This wrong idea is not new.

--
Jasen.
 
M

Martin Brown

Guest
On 05/08/2020 19:51, John Doe wrote:
I\'m trying to take advantage of the FACT metal is much cooler than
ambient room temperature. The concept I posted, or something
similar, is reasonable.
Putting a lie in capital letters does not make it true. Metals feel
colder to the touch because they have a higher specific heat capacity.

They also burn you more effectively when hot like an oven shelf.

> Some close-minded people tend to dismiss new ideas outright...

You mean those closed minded people that understand thermodynamics?

--
Regards,
Martin Brown
 
C

Clive Arthur

Guest
On 05/08/2020 18:29, Corvid wrote:
Metal is cooler than ambient temperature?

Is the temperature inside of a metal box cooler than ambient
temperature?

I need to look. If that is so. Can be used for storing medicine and
maybe other things.
I have a metal box in my kitchen and the temperature inside is
definitely cooler than ambient. I use it for storing things other than
medicine.

--
Cheers
Clive
 
J

John Larkin

Guest
On Wed, 5 Aug 2020 22:50:08 +0100, Clive Arthur
<cliveta@nowaytoday.co.uk> wrote:

On 05/08/2020 18:29, Corvid wrote:

Metal is cooler than ambient temperature?

Is the temperature inside of a metal box cooler than ambient
temperature?

I need to look. If that is so. Can be used for storing medicine and
maybe other things.


I have a metal box in my kitchen and the temperature inside is
definitely cooler than ambient. I use it for storing things other than
medicine.
Amazon has a nice dual thermocouple thing...

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B018QHQSB8/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

which would let you verify the observation.

Which is impossible, of course. It would be a perpetual motion
machine.

A big metal box could add some thermal mass to smooth a heat spike,
but not for long.
 
C

Corvid

Guest
On 08/05/2020 01:22 PM, John Larkin wrote:

Polished metals, especially copper and brass, are excellent
reflectors at thermal wavelengths. Plastics are nearly black in the
thermal IR. So if there is a radiant heat source around, the metal
will feel cooler than some other things.

Unless you paint it.
If the metal is the radiant heat source, do I want to paint that metal
black, or leave it bare, for cooling? I\'m thinking of a motorcycle
engine\'s air-cooled cylinder and head.

I\'ve read inconclusive blather about black radiating more heat, but the
paint also being an insulator.
 
J

John Larkin

Guest
On Wed, 5 Aug 2020 22:50:08 +0100, Clive Arthur
<cliveta@nowaytoday.co.uk> wrote:

On 05/08/2020 18:29, Corvid wrote:

Metal is cooler than ambient temperature?

Is the temperature inside of a metal box cooler than ambient
temperature?

I need to look. If that is so. Can be used for storing medicine and
maybe other things.


I have a metal box in my kitchen and the temperature inside is
definitely cooler than ambient. I use it for storing things other than
medicine.
If you put a metal box inside a metal box, it would get even colder!
Use that to store ice cream.
 
J

John Larkin

Guest
On Wed, 5 Aug 2020 16:47:35 -0700, Corvid <bl@ckbirds.org> wrote:

On 08/05/2020 01:22 PM, John Larkin wrote:

Polished metals, especially copper and brass, are excellent
reflectors at thermal wavelengths. Plastics are nearly black in the
thermal IR. So if there is a radiant heat source around, the metal
will feel cooler than some other things.

Unless you paint it.

If the metal is the radiant heat source, do I want to paint that metal
black, or leave it bare, for cooling? I\'m thinking of a motorcycle
engine\'s air-cooled cylinder and head.

I\'ve read inconclusive blather about black radiating more heat, but the
paint also being an insulator.
Black anodize would be good to increase radiation from aluminum.

Things that are black in the thermal IR spectrum are good radiation
emitters and good absorbers, high emissivity. Shiny metals, opposite.

Paint is almost black in the far IR, but as you note is also a thermal
insulator. It will make convective air cooling worse.

Anodize is very thin and both radiates and conducts well.

\"Black\" here means black at thermal wavelengths, not necessarily
visually black. Water is black at these wavelengths.

Thin black plastic garbage bags are nearly transparent in the thermal
IR. That can be handy.
 
L

Lasse Langwadt Christensen

Guest
torsdag den 6. august 2020 kl. 02.44.53 UTC+2 skrev John Larkin:
On Wed, 5 Aug 2020 16:47:35 -0700, Corvid <bl@ckbirds.org> wrote:

On 08/05/2020 01:22 PM, John Larkin wrote:

Polished metals, especially copper and brass, are excellent
reflectors at thermal wavelengths. Plastics are nearly black in the
thermal IR. So if there is a radiant heat source around, the metal
will feel cooler than some other things.

Unless you paint it.

If the metal is the radiant heat source, do I want to paint that metal
black, or leave it bare, for cooling? I\'m thinking of a motorcycle
engine\'s air-cooled cylinder and head.

I\'ve read inconclusive blather about black radiating more heat, but the
paint also being an insulator.

Black anodize would be good to increase radiation from aluminum.

Things that are black in the thermal IR spectrum are good radiation
emitters and good absorbers, high emissivity. Shiny metals, opposite.

Paint is almost black in the far IR, but as you note is also a thermal
insulator. It will make convective air cooling worse.

Anodize is very thin and both radiates and conducts well.

\"Black\" here means black at thermal wavelengths, not necessarily
visually black. Water is black at these wavelengths.

Thin black plastic garbage bags are nearly transparent in the thermal
IR. That can be handy.
does radiation really make a significant difference at normal heatsink temperatures?
 
B

Bill Sloman

Guest
On Thursday, August 6, 2020 at 4:15:03 AM UTC+10, John Doe wrote:
Jeroen Belleman <jer...@nospam.please> wrote:

My nym-shifting entourage \"Corvid\" wrote:

Metal is cooler than ambient temperature? [known]

Is the temperature inside of a metal box cooler than ambient
temperature?

I need to look. If that is so. Can be used for storing medicine and
maybe other things.

No, of course not.
Have you ever tried?

If you sit something down on an aluminum flat bar, the aluminum very
likely will dissipate heat from the object.

Metal is much cooler than ambient temperature. I know that for a fact.
You think you do. It\'s thermodynamic nonsense - driven by the fact that you are usually warmer than ambient temperature.

> It\'s not just to the touch, it\'s actually measured much cooler.

Then you screwed up the measurement.

Sometimes people are dismissive of new ideas, especially common things
they should have thought of themselves.
It does happen, but most of the ideas that get dismissed - like this one - happen to be obviously wrong, and stay that way, if looked into more carefully. Continental drift is the famous exception - but \"the looking into it more carefully\" took about fifty years.

> Hopefully it\'s a telltale sign that the idea has never been tried.

Your optimism is misplaced.

I originally posted that in the metalworking group. My entourage (a
little upset that I expose its nym-shifting) posted it here for some
strange reason, maybe because I was thinking of doing so? Perhaps it\'s
an alter ego of mine...
Another top-posting troll. Even one of you is entirely superfluous.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney
 
B

Bill Sloman

Guest
On Thursday, August 6, 2020 at 4:51:43 AM UTC+10, John Doe wrote:
I\'m trying to take advantage of the FACT metal is much cooler than
ambient room temperature.
Sadly, it isn\'t a fact, but a delusion.

>The concept I posted, or something similar, is reasonable.

If you don\'t know enough to realise that it isn\'t.

> Some close-minded people tend to dismiss new ideas outright...

This does happen, but it\'s not what\'s going on here.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney
 
R

Ricketty C

Guest
On Wednesday, August 5, 2020 at 2:51:43 PM UTC-4, John Doe wrote:
I\'m trying to take advantage of the FACT metal is much cooler than
ambient room temperature. The concept I posted, or something
similar, is reasonable.

Some close-minded people tend to dismiss new ideas outright...
Weird. I explain to you in terms a high school kid could understand that what you are saying is wrong and instead of learning something you attack me..

The fact is you either did not read what I wrote or didn\'t understand it. The fact is you have never put a thermometer on a metal object that is in equilibrium with it\'s environment. If you had you would know a metal object is not cooler than it\'s environment unless the environment temperature has gone up and the metal is no longer in equilibrium.

This is very basic thermodynamics. I\'d be happy to explain it to you, but not if you aren\'t willing to learn.

--

Rick C.

-- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
-- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
 
S

server

Guest
On Wed, 5 Aug 2020 18:17:52 -0700 (PDT), Lasse Langwadt Christensen
<langwadt@fonz.dk> wrote:

torsdag den 6. august 2020 kl. 02.44.53 UTC+2 skrev John Larkin:
On Wed, 5 Aug 2020 16:47:35 -0700, Corvid <bl@ckbirds.org> wrote:

On 08/05/2020 01:22 PM, John Larkin wrote:

Polished metals, especially copper and brass, are excellent
reflectors at thermal wavelengths. Plastics are nearly black in the
thermal IR. So if there is a radiant heat source around, the metal
will feel cooler than some other things.

Unless you paint it.

If the metal is the radiant heat source, do I want to paint that metal
black, or leave it bare, for cooling? I\'m thinking of a motorcycle
engine\'s air-cooled cylinder and head.

I\'ve read inconclusive blather about black radiating more heat, but the
paint also being an insulator.

Black anodize would be good to increase radiation from aluminum.

Things that are black in the thermal IR spectrum are good radiation
emitters and good absorbers, high emissivity. Shiny metals, opposite.

Paint is almost black in the far IR, but as you note is also a thermal
insulator. It will make convective air cooling worse.

Anodize is very thin and both radiates and conducts well.

\"Black\" here means black at thermal wavelengths, not necessarily
visually black. Water is black at these wavelengths.

Thin black plastic garbage bags are nearly transparent in the thermal
IR. That can be handy.

does radiation really make a significant difference at normal heatsink temperatures?
The radiation power goes as the 4th power of the temp, so it starts to
matter as a heat sink gets pretty hot.

Try this:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/6mdrgrfbq87oi7g/Radcool2.EXE?dl=0

I think that\'s right.




--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

Science teaches us to doubt.

Claude Bernard
 
R

Ricketty C

Guest
On Wednesday, August 5, 2020 at 7:47:38 PM UTC-4, Corvid wrote:
On 08/05/2020 01:22 PM, John Larkin wrote:

Polished metals, especially copper and brass, are excellent
reflectors at thermal wavelengths. Plastics are nearly black in the
thermal IR. So if there is a radiant heat source around, the metal
will feel cooler than some other things.

Unless you paint it.

If the metal is the radiant heat source, do I want to paint that metal
black, or leave it bare, for cooling? I\'m thinking of a motorcycle
engine\'s air-cooled cylinder and head.

I\'ve read inconclusive blather about black radiating more heat, but the
paint also being an insulator.
Engines mostly cool by conduction, not radiation. So the color is not very significant.

--

Rick C.

+- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
+- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
 
J

John Doe

Guest
1. I did not post to this group, a nym-shifting stalker troll did
that.

2. I have already made perfectly clear in follow-up posts that my
post elsewhere was mistaken.

3. There is no need to pollute this thread/group with netcop garbage
when you are not cognizant enough to see what has transpired.

But that is the way of trolls (at least two, from Australia and New
Zealand, in this short subthread)...

--
Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz> wrote:

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From: Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz
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Subject: Re: OT: Items in a metal box are cooler?
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On 2020-08-05, John Doe <always.look@message.header> wrote:
I\'m trying to take advantage of the FACT metal is much cooler than
ambient room temperature.

Capital letters (or shouting) will not turn a falsehood into a truth.

The concept I posted, or something similar, is reasonable.

If you count a normal refrigerator as \"similar\": it\'s a metal box
that\'s cooler on the inside, then \"yes\", something similar is
reasonable.

Some close-minded people tend to dismiss new ideas outright...

This wrong idea is not new.

--
Jasen.
 
J

John Doe

Guest
1. I did not post to this group, a nym-shifting stalker troll did
that.

2. I have already made perfectly clear in follow-up posts that my
post elsewhere was mistaken.

3. There is no need to pollute this thread/group with more netcop
garbage when you are not cognizant enough to see what has
transpired.

But that is the way of trolls (at least two, from Australia and New
Zealand, in this short subthread)...

--
Martin Brown <\'\'\'newspam\'\'\'@nonad.co.uk> wrote:

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From: Martin Brown <\'\'\'newspam\'\'\'@nonad.co.uk
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Subject: Re: OT: Items in a metal box are cooler?
Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2020 22:14:55 +0100
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On 05/08/2020 19:51, John Doe wrote:
I\'m trying to take advantage of the FACT metal is much cooler than
ambient room temperature. The concept I posted, or something
similar, is reasonable.

Putting a lie in capital letters does not make it true. Metals feel
colder to the touch because they have a higher specific heat capacity.

They also burn you more effectively when hot like an oven shelf.

Some close-minded people tend to dismiss new ideas outright...

You mean those closed minded people that understand thermodynamics?

--
Regards,
Martin Brown
 
J

John Doe

Guest
1. I did not post to this group, a nym-shifting stalker troll did
that.

2. I have already made perfectly clear in follow-up posts that my
post elsewhere was mistaken.

3. There is no need to pollute this thread/group with more netcop
garbage when you are not cognizant enough to see what has
transpired.

But that is the way of trolls (at least two, from Australia and New
Zealand, in this short subthread)...

--
Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote:

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On Thursday, August 6, 2020 at 4:51:43 AM UTC+10, John Doe wrote:

I\'m trying to take advantage of the FACT metal is much cooler than
ambient room temperature.

Sadly, it isn\'t a fact, but a delusion.

The concept I posted, or something similar, is reasonable.

If you don\'t know enough to realise that it isn\'t.

Some close-minded people tend to dismiss new ideas outright...

This does happen, but it\'s not what\'s going on here.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney
 
J

John Doe

Guest
1. I did not post to this group, a nym-shifting stalker troll did
that.

2. I have already made perfectly clear in follow-up posts that my
post elsewhere was mistaken.

3. There is no need to pollute this thread/group with more netcop
garbage when you are not cognizant enough to see what has
transpired.

But that is the way of trolls (at least two, from Australia and New
Zealand, in this short subthread)...

--
Ricketty C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:

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On Wednesday, August 5, 2020 at 2:51:43 PM UTC-4, John Doe wrote:
I\'m trying to take advantage of the FACT metal is much cooler than
ambient room temperature. The concept I posted, or something
similar, is reasonable.

Some close-minded people tend to dismiss new ideas outright...

Weird. I explain to you in terms a high school kid could understand that what you are saying is wrong and instead of learning something you attack me.

The fact is you either did not read what I wrote or didn\'t understand it. The fact is you have never put a thermometer on a metal object that is in equilibrium with it\'s environment. If you had you would know a metal object is not cooler than it\'s environment unless the environment temperature has gone up and the metal is no longer in equilibrium.

This is very basic thermodynamics. I\'d be happy to explain it to you, but not if you aren\'t willing to learn.

--

Rick C.

-- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
-- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
 
J

John Doe

Guest
A nym-shifting stalker upset because I\'ve exposed its nym-shifting.
I will be on its next alias, too. No more nym-shifting for this
little troll.

see also...
=?UTF-8?B?8J+QriBDb3dzIGFyZSBOaWNlIPCfkK4=?= <nice@cows.moo>
Banders <snap@mailchute.com>
Corvid <bl@ckbirds.org>
Cows Are Nice <cows@nice.moo>
Cows are nice <moo@cows.org>
Cows are Nice <nice@cows.moo>
dogs <dogs@home.com>
Great Pumpkin <pumpkin@patch.net>
Jose Curvo <jcurvo@mymail.com>
Local Favorite <how2recycle@palomar.info>
Sea <freshness@coast.org>
Standard Poodle <standard@poodle.com>
and others...

--
Corvid <bl@ckbirds.org> wrote:

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From: Corvid <bl@ckbirds.org
Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
Subject: Re: OT: Items in a metal box are cooler?
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Xref: reader01.eternal-september.org sci.electronics.design:604017

On 08/05/2020 01:22 PM, John Larkin wrote:

Polished metals, especially copper and brass, are excellent
reflectors at thermal wavelengths. Plastics are nearly black in the
thermal IR. So if there is a radiant heat source around, the metal
will feel cooler than some other things.

Unless you paint it.

If the metal is the radiant heat source, do I want to paint that metal
black, or leave it bare, for cooling? I\'m thinking of a motorcycle
engine\'s air-cooled cylinder and head.

I\'ve read inconclusive blather about black radiating more heat, but the
paint also being an insulator.
 
J

John Doe

Guest
1. I did not post to this group, a nym-shifting stalker troll did
that.

2. I have already made perfectly clear in follow-up posts that my
post elsewhere was mistaken.

3. There is no need to pollute this thread/group with more netcop
troll garbage when you are not cognizant enough to see what has
transpired...

--
Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote:

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Subject: Re: Fwd: OT: Items in a metal box are cooler?
From: Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org
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On Thursday, August 6, 2020 at 4:15:03 AM UTC+10, John Doe wrote:
Jeroen Belleman <jer...@nospam.please> wrote:

My nym-shifting entourage \"Corvid\" wrote:

Metal is cooler than ambient temperature? [known]

Is the temperature inside of a metal box cooler than ambient
temperature?

I need to look. If that is so. Can be used for storing medicine and
maybe other things.

No, of course not.
Have you ever tried?

If you sit something down on an aluminum flat bar, the aluminum very
likely will dissipate heat from the object.

Metal is much cooler than ambient temperature. I know that for a fact.

You think you do. It\'s thermodynamic nonsense - driven by the fact that you are usually warmer than ambient temperature.

It\'s not just to the touch, it\'s actually measured much cooler.

Then you screwed up the measurement.

Sometimes people are dismissive of new ideas, especially common things
they should have thought of themselves.

It does happen, but most of the ideas that get dismissed - like this one - happen to be obviously wrong, and stay that way, if looked into more carefully. Continental drift is the famous exception - but \"the looking into it more carefully\" took about fifty years.

Hopefully it\'s a telltale sign that the idea has never been tried.

Your optimism is misplaced.

I originally posted that in the metalworking group. My entourage (a
little upset that I expose its nym-shifting) posted it here for some
strange reason, maybe because I was thinking of doing so? Perhaps it\'s
an alter ego of mine...

Another top-posting troll. Even one of you is entirely superfluous.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney
 
J

John Doe

Guest
1. I did not post to this group, a nym-shifting stalker troll did
that.

2. I have already made perfectly clear in follow-up posts that my
post elsewhere was mistaken.

3. There is no need to pollute this thread/group with more netcop
troll garbage when you are not cognizant enough to see what has
transpired...

--
Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz> wrote:

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From: Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz
Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
Subject: Re: Fwd: OT: Items in a metal box are cooler?
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On 2020-08-05, John Doe <always.look@message.header> wrote:
Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:

My nym-shifting entourage \"Corvid\" wrote:

Metal is cooler than ambient temperature? [known]

Is the temperature inside of a metal box cooler than ambient
temperature?

I need to look. If that is so. Can be used for storing medicine and
maybe other things.

No, of course not.

Have you ever tried?

If you want to fail attempt an assault on the laws of
thermodynamics.

--
Jasen.
 
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