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Energy savings, do you care?...

  • Thread starter Klaus Kragelund
  • Start date
J

Joerg

Guest
On 2020-08-06 05:07, Klaus Kragelund wrote:
On Thursday, August 6, 2020 at 1:05:42 AM UTC+2, Joerg wrote:
On 2020-08-05 15:07, Jasen Betts wrote:
On 2020-08-05, Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> wrote:
On 2020-08-05 11:53, Ricketty C wrote:
On Wednesday, August 5, 2020 at 1:53:32 PM UTC-4, Joerg
wrote:
On 2020-08-05 10:29, Ricketty C wrote:
On Wednesday, August 5, 2020 at 1:09:26 PM UTC-4, Joerg
wrote:
On 2020-08-05 03:11, Klaus Kragelund wrote:
On Wednesday, August 5, 2020 at 12:17:27 AM UTC+2,
Joerg wrote:
On 2020-08-04 00:38, Klaus Kragelund wrote:
Hi

Triggered by the HVAC wiring thread, just out of
curiosity:

Some of you probably have a circulation pump in
the house, or several depending on the system.

Do you care about the efficiency of that one, say
instead of using 30W, you could buy a more
expensive one that consumes 25W for the same pump
performance? (that would correlate to a
electricity savings of maybe 4 USD per year for a
50% duty ratio)

Would you spend +10 USD more on that pump, for a
payback period of less than 4 years?


Yes, but ... in the US circulation pumps are not
popular or sometimes turned off. This has a simple
reason and mostly in left-leaning states where
electricity and gas are expensive. Having to run
out some cold water before it gets warm does waste
water but that is often more than an order of
magnitude cheaper that the energy used by a
recirculating system. Not so much the electricity
for the pump but the loss of thermal energy in the
water going round and round. In our case it\'s
propane which is prohibitively expensive so we
would never consider recirculation.


Correct. New regulation actually demand that the user
press a button before using the faucet, so that the
heat recirculation pump had time to get the water
warm right before the user needs it


Who comes up with such weird laws? Now every house
needs a button wired to each sink and shower? Which, of
course, needs to be very well safety-isolated. That
drives up the cost of homes.

Did you leave your common sense at home today? Low
voltage wiring like this needs NO protection.


And how is that low voltage made? Think!

Through a low voltage transformer that provides protection.


No. That is not enough for bathroom use.

Assuming SELV, it\'s absolutely enough.

.Zone 1 (high splash risk like in a shower enclosure above the
tray, above a bath tub) . .Requires electrical products to be
IPX4 or better, or SELV with the .transformer located beyond zone
2.


In most jurisdictions you are not allowed to run the cables close
to mains wiring and that\'s not a trivial matter in a cramped
bathroom. Klaus is likely thinking more about Europe first and
those rooms aren\'t big over there.


AFAIK running SELV close to mains wire is ok. The insulation on the
wire just needs to have double insulation from bare wire to wire. So
in principle basic insulation on each wire itself. Right?
You\'d have to look at all the targeted markets in detail. Here is an
example from the IT world:

https://www.truecable.com/blogs/educational/running-ethernet-and-power-cable#

Quote \"When running unshielded data cable parallel to typical
residential voltage power cables (110V for example), the NEC (National
Electric Code) specifies it must be separated by at least 200mm or 8 inches.
The NEC further specifies that shielded data cabling may be run in
parallel with lower voltage residential power cable if a distance of
50mm or 2 inches is observed\"

And that\'s not even a bathroom application.

--
Gruesse, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
 
R

Ricketty C

Guest
On Saturday, August 8, 2020 at 1:10:09 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
On 2020-08-06 05:07, Klaus Kragelund wrote:
On Thursday, August 6, 2020 at 1:05:42 AM UTC+2, Joerg wrote:
On 2020-08-05 15:07, Jasen Betts wrote:
On 2020-08-05, Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> wrote:
On 2020-08-05 11:53, Ricketty C wrote:
On Wednesday, August 5, 2020 at 1:53:32 PM UTC-4, Joerg
wrote:
On 2020-08-05 10:29, Ricketty C wrote:
On Wednesday, August 5, 2020 at 1:09:26 PM UTC-4, Joerg
wrote:
On 2020-08-05 03:11, Klaus Kragelund wrote:
On Wednesday, August 5, 2020 at 12:17:27 AM UTC+2,
Joerg wrote:
On 2020-08-04 00:38, Klaus Kragelund wrote:
Hi

Triggered by the HVAC wiring thread, just out of
curiosity:

Some of you probably have a circulation pump in
the house, or several depending on the system.

Do you care about the efficiency of that one, say
instead of using 30W, you could buy a more
expensive one that consumes 25W for the same pump
performance? (that would correlate to a
electricity savings of maybe 4 USD per year for a
50% duty ratio)

Would you spend +10 USD more on that pump, for a
payback period of less than 4 years?


Yes, but ... in the US circulation pumps are not
popular or sometimes turned off. This has a simple
reason and mostly in left-leaning states where
electricity and gas are expensive. Having to run
out some cold water before it gets warm does waste
water but that is often more than an order of
magnitude cheaper that the energy used by a
recirculating system. Not so much the electricity
for the pump but the loss of thermal energy in the
water going round and round. In our case it\'s
propane which is prohibitively expensive so we
would never consider recirculation.


Correct. New regulation actually demand that the user
press a button before using the faucet, so that the
heat recirculation pump had time to get the water
warm right before the user needs it


Who comes up with such weird laws? Now every house
needs a button wired to each sink and shower? Which, of
course, needs to be very well safety-isolated. That
drives up the cost of homes.

Did you leave your common sense at home today? Low
voltage wiring like this needs NO protection.


And how is that low voltage made? Think!

Through a low voltage transformer that provides protection.


No. That is not enough for bathroom use.

Assuming SELV, it\'s absolutely enough.

.Zone 1 (high splash risk like in a shower enclosure above the
tray, above a bath tub) . .Requires electrical products to be
IPX4 or better, or SELV with the .transformer located beyond zone
2.


In most jurisdictions you are not allowed to run the cables close
to mains wiring and that\'s not a trivial matter in a cramped
bathroom. Klaus is likely thinking more about Europe first and
those rooms aren\'t big over there.


AFAIK running SELV close to mains wire is ok. The insulation on the
wire just needs to have double insulation from bare wire to wire. So
in principle basic insulation on each wire itself. Right?


You\'d have to look at all the targeted markets in detail. Here is an
example from the IT world:

https://www.truecable.com/blogs/educational/running-ethernet-and-power-cable#

Quote \"When running unshielded data cable parallel to typical
residential voltage power cables (110V for example), the NEC (National
Electric Code) specifies it must be separated by at least 200mm or 8 inches.
The NEC further specifies that shielded data cabling may be run in
parallel with lower voltage residential power cable if a distance of
50mm or 2 inches is observed\"

And that\'s not even a bathroom application.
Jeez! Eight whole inches, I guess I\'m going to need a bigger house!

--

Rick C.

-++- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
-++- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
 
S

server

Guest
On Sat, 08 Aug 2020 10:10:19 -0700, Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com>
wrote:

On 2020-08-06 05:07, Klaus Kragelund wrote:
On Thursday, August 6, 2020 at 1:05:42 AM UTC+2, Joerg wrote:
On 2020-08-05 15:07, Jasen Betts wrote:
On 2020-08-05, Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> wrote:
On 2020-08-05 11:53, Ricketty C wrote:
On Wednesday, August 5, 2020 at 1:53:32 PM UTC-4, Joerg
wrote:
On 2020-08-05 10:29, Ricketty C wrote:
On Wednesday, August 5, 2020 at 1:09:26 PM UTC-4, Joerg
wrote:
On 2020-08-05 03:11, Klaus Kragelund wrote:
On Wednesday, August 5, 2020 at 12:17:27 AM UTC+2,
Joerg wrote:
On 2020-08-04 00:38, Klaus Kragelund wrote:
Hi

Triggered by the HVAC wiring thread, just out of
curiosity:

Some of you probably have a circulation pump in
the house, or several depending on the system.

Do you care about the efficiency of that one, say
instead of using 30W, you could buy a more
expensive one that consumes 25W for the same pump
performance? (that would correlate to a
electricity savings of maybe 4 USD per year for a
50% duty ratio)

Would you spend +10 USD more on that pump, for a
payback period of less than 4 years?


Yes, but ... in the US circulation pumps are not
popular or sometimes turned off. This has a simple
reason and mostly in left-leaning states where
electricity and gas are expensive. Having to run
out some cold water before it gets warm does waste
water but that is often more than an order of
magnitude cheaper that the energy used by a
recirculating system. Not so much the electricity
for the pump but the loss of thermal energy in the
water going round and round. In our case it\'s
propane which is prohibitively expensive so we
would never consider recirculation.


Correct. New regulation actually demand that the user
press a button before using the faucet, so that the
heat recirculation pump had time to get the water
warm right before the user needs it


Who comes up with such weird laws? Now every house
needs a button wired to each sink and shower? Which, of
course, needs to be very well safety-isolated. That
drives up the cost of homes.

Did you leave your common sense at home today? Low
voltage wiring like this needs NO protection.


And how is that low voltage made? Think!

Through a low voltage transformer that provides protection.


No. That is not enough for bathroom use.

Assuming SELV, it\'s absolutely enough.

.Zone 1 (high splash risk like in a shower enclosure above the
tray, above a bath tub) . .Requires electrical products to be
IPX4 or better, or SELV with the .transformer located beyond zone
2.


In most jurisdictions you are not allowed to run the cables close
to mains wiring and that\'s not a trivial matter in a cramped
bathroom. Klaus is likely thinking more about Europe first and
those rooms aren\'t big over there.


AFAIK running SELV close to mains wire is ok. The insulation on the
wire just needs to have double insulation from bare wire to wire. So
in principle basic insulation on each wire itself. Right?


You\'d have to look at all the targeted markets in detail. Here is an
example from the IT world:

https://www.truecable.com/blogs/educational/running-ethernet-and-power-cable#

Quote \"When running unshielded data cable parallel to typical
residential voltage power cables (110V for example), the NEC (National
Electric Code) specifies it must be separated by at least 200mm or 8 inches.
The NEC further specifies that shielded data cabling may be run in
parallel with lower voltage residential power cable if a distance of
50mm or 2 inches is observed\"
Have you checked the actual NEC wording ?

I would not trust that blog very much. The reason given was magnetic
field induction between the power and ethernet and this is claimed to
be worse with higher voltages. The magnetic induction is dependent on
current (and frequency) not voltage. For this reason, do not run
signal cables close to VFD cables feeding a big motor, since the
current waveform is awful with lots of harmonics. A good quality
twisted pair quite effectively cancels a lot of external induction.


>For extremely high voltage AC wiring, such as 240V and above:

The author doesn\'t even know IEC voltage classification :).

>And that\'s not even a bathroom application.

If the NEC really demands such distances, drill an extra hole into
the concrete bathroom wall with a hammer drill.
 
D

Don Y

Guest
On 8/8/2020 10:10 AM, Joerg wrote:

You\'d have to look at all the targeted markets in detail. Here is an example
from the IT world:

https://www.truecable.com/blogs/educational/running-ethernet-and-power-cable#

Quote \"When running unshielded data cable parallel to typical residential
voltage power cables (110V for example), the NEC (National Electric Code)
specifies it must be separated by at least 200mm or 8 inches.
The NEC further specifies that shielded data cabling may be run in
parallel with lower voltage residential power cable if a distance of 50mm or 2
inches is observed\"

And that\'s not even a bathroom application.
It\'s also not what the Code says! Read section 800. Note power circuits,
comm circuits, other class2/3, prohibitions/allowances within a Jbox, etc.

There are additional \"best practices\" that aren\'t enforced by the Code
but that will make your life easier (e.g., don\'t run telco lines
alongside network lines).
 
T

Tabby

Guest
On Saturday, 8 August 2020 20:40:12 UTC+1, upsid...@downunder.com wrote:
On Sat, 08 Aug 2020 10:10:19 -0700, Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com
wrote:

For extremely high voltage AC wiring, such as 240V and above:

The author doesn\'t even know IEC voltage classification :).
in fairness their voltage classifications are fairly odd, and it\'s hard to find solid motivation to use them unless you\'re filling in relevant paperwork etc.


NT
 
M

Michael Terrell

Guest
On Saturday, August 8, 2020 at 3:40:12 PM UTC-4, upsid...@downunder.com wrote:
On Sat, 08 Aug 2020 10:10:19 -0700, Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com
wrote:

On 2020-08-06 05:07, Klaus Kragelund wrote:
On Thursday, August 6, 2020 at 1:05:42 AM UTC+2, Joerg wrote:
On 2020-08-05 15:07, Jasen Betts wrote:
On 2020-08-05, Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> wrote:
On 2020-08-05 11:53, Ricketty C wrote:
On Wednesday, August 5, 2020 at 1:53:32 PM UTC-4, Joerg
wrote:
On 2020-08-05 10:29, Ricketty C wrote:
On Wednesday, August 5, 2020 at 1:09:26 PM UTC-4, Joerg
wrote:
On 2020-08-05 03:11, Klaus Kragelund wrote:
On Wednesday, August 5, 2020 at 12:17:27 AM UTC+2,
Joerg wrote:
On 2020-08-04 00:38, Klaus Kragelund wrote:
Hi

Triggered by the HVAC wiring thread, just out of
curiosity:

Some of you probably have a circulation pump in
the house, or several depending on the system.

Do you care about the efficiency of that one, say
instead of using 30W, you could buy a more
expensive one that consumes 25W for the same pump
performance? (that would correlate to a
electricity savings of maybe 4 USD per year for a
50% duty ratio)

Would you spend +10 USD more on that pump, for a
payback period of less than 4 years?


Yes, but ... in the US circulation pumps are not
popular or sometimes turned off. This has a simple
reason and mostly in left-leaning states where
electricity and gas are expensive. Having to run
out some cold water before it gets warm does waste
water but that is often more than an order of
magnitude cheaper that the energy used by a
recirculating system. Not so much the electricity
for the pump but the loss of thermal energy in the
water going round and round. In our case it\'s
propane which is prohibitively expensive so we
would never consider recirculation.


Correct. New regulation actually demand that the user
press a button before using the faucet, so that the
heat recirculation pump had time to get the water
warm right before the user needs it


Who comes up with such weird laws? Now every house
needs a button wired to each sink and shower? Which, of
course, needs to be very well safety-isolated. That
drives up the cost of homes.

Did you leave your common sense at home today? Low
voltage wiring like this needs NO protection.


And how is that low voltage made? Think!

Through a low voltage transformer that provides protection.


No. That is not enough for bathroom use.

Assuming SELV, it\'s absolutely enough.

.Zone 1 (high splash risk like in a shower enclosure above the
tray, above a bath tub) . .Requires electrical products to be
IPX4 or better, or SELV with the .transformer located beyond zone
2.


In most jurisdictions you are not allowed to run the cables close
to mains wiring and that\'s not a trivial matter in a cramped
bathroom. Klaus is likely thinking more about Europe first and
those rooms aren\'t big over there.


AFAIK running SELV close to mains wire is ok. The insulation on the
wire just needs to have double insulation from bare wire to wire. So
in principle basic insulation on each wire itself. Right?


You\'d have to look at all the targeted markets in detail. Here is an
example from the IT world:

https://www.truecable.com/blogs/educational/running-ethernet-and-power-cable#

Quote \"When running unshielded data cable parallel to typical
residential voltage power cables (110V for example), the NEC (National
Electric Code) specifies it must be separated by at least 200mm or 8 inches.
The NEC further specifies that shielded data cabling may be run in
parallel with lower voltage residential power cable if a distance of
50mm or 2 inches is observed\"

Have you checked the actual NEC wording ?

I would not trust that blog very much. The reason given was magnetic
field induction between the power and ethernet and this is claimed to
be worse with higher voltages. The magnetic induction is dependent on
current (and frequency) not voltage. For this reason, do not run
signal cables close to VFD cables feeding a big motor, since the
current waveform is awful with lots of harmonics. A good quality
twisted pair quite effectively cancels a lot of external induction.


For extremely high voltage AC wiring, such as 240V and above:

The author doesn\'t even know IEC voltage classification :).

And that\'s not even a bathroom application.

If the NEC really demands such distances, drill an extra hole into
the concrete bathroom wall with a hammer drill.
Have you seen the damage when a nearby lightning strike induces voltage into a paralel wire run? I had a strike on a metal barn. It tripped the main circuit breakers for the property. It was parallel to the coax for a satellite dish, and they were over three feet apart. It fried the Sat receiver. It then jumped into the telephone line. It fried the SLIC, and the five+ miles of copper to the Central Office. Everything met code, but the induced currents did thousands of dollars of damage. It even fried a new SVGA monitor that wasn\'t connected to anything. The video cable was wrapped around the base, and there was no power cord. It fried the video input circuits. It also caused a battery powered digital thermometer to explode, and it was over 100 feet from that barn.
 
J

Joe Gwinn

Guest
On Sat, 8 Aug 2020 18:44:12 -0700 (PDT), Tabby <tabbypurr@gmail.com>
wrote:

On Saturday, 8 August 2020 20:40:12 UTC+1, upsid...@downunder.com wrote:
On Sat, 08 Aug 2020 10:10:19 -0700, Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com
wrote:

For extremely high voltage AC wiring, such as 240V and above:

The author doesn\'t even know IEC voltage classification :).

in fairness their voltage classifications are fairly odd, and it\'s hard to find solid motivation to use them unless you\'re filling in relevant paperwork etc.
A non-arbitrary number that stickes in my mind is that arcs above
about 300 Vac will not self extinguish.. This is part of the reason
that arc flash is a big deal at 470 Vac, but not so much at 240 Vac.

I don\'t know thw corresponding voltage for DC, but assume that it\'s
lower, for lack of zero crossings.

Joe Gwinn
 
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