# Energy savings, do you care?...

J

#### Jasen Betts

##### Guest
On 2020-08-06, Ricketty C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:
On Wednesday, August 5, 2020 at 9:08:08 PM UTC-4, Tabby wrote:
On Wednesday, 5 August 2020 18:29:10 UTC+1, Ricketty C wrote:
On Wednesday, August 5, 2020 at 1:09:26 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:

If it absolutely has to be done I\'d automate that. Asking a resident to
remember to press such a button does not make sense to me. People will
water tap or on the toilet. If the person doesn\'t quickly move around or
away this starts the recirculating pump. When the person surprisingly
walks away again or if the person turns on the warm water (flow,
pressure drop) the pump turns off again.

Yeah, that\'s a very simple trouble free approach... really??? What\'s wrong with instant on? In the households in the EU the house current provides for more power availability in a standard circuit, over 2 kW vs about 1.4 kW here. That\'s plenty for instant on.

240v 32A is 7.7kW.

I was thinking more of the 9 amp circuits that I believe are common
in the UK.
UK uses 32A circuits with 13A outlets for GPOs

We tend to have 15 amp 120 volts in the US, sometimes 20
amps in certain uses. 20 amps at 120 volts is practically the same as
9 amps, 240 volts and is a fair amount of water heating.
not enough though.

It may not
be enough for a shower though. I did some not so quick calculations
that show 9 amp, 240 volts will raise about a third of a gallon by 25
Â°F each minute. The average shower uses around 2 gal a minute, so
more power is needed, around 6 times as much or more like 60 amps at
240 volts!
This one is 6.4kW:

--
Jasen.

S

#### server

##### Guest
On Wed, 05 Aug 2020 15:04:39 -0700, Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com>
wrote:

On 2020-08-05 13:37, upsidedown@downunder.com wrote:
On Wed, 05 Aug 2020 12:13:33 -0700, Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com
wrote:

On 2020-08-05 11:53, Ricketty C wrote:
On Wednesday, August 5, 2020 at 1:53:32 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
On 2020-08-05 10:29, Ricketty C wrote:
On Wednesday, August 5, 2020 at 1:09:26 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
On 2020-08-05 03:11, Klaus Kragelund wrote:
On Wednesday, August 5, 2020 at 12:17:27 AM UTC+2, Joerg wrote:
On 2020-08-04 00:38, Klaus Kragelund wrote:
Hi

Triggered by the HVAC wiring thread, just out of curiosity:

Some of you probably have a circulation pump in the house,
or several depending on the system.

Do you care about the efficiency of that one, say instead of
using 30W, you could buy a more expensive one that consumes
25W for the same pump performance? (that would correlate to
a electricity savings of maybe 4 USD per year for a 50% duty
ratio)

Would you spend +10 USD more on that pump, for a payback
period of less than 4 years?

Yes, but ... in the US circulation pumps are not popular or
sometimes turned off. This has a simple reason and mostly in
left-leaning states where electricity and gas are expensive.
Having to run out some cold water before it gets warm does
waste water but that is often more than an order of magnitude
cheaper that the energy used by a recirculating system. Not so
much the electricity for the pump but the loss of thermal
energy in the water going round and round. In our case it\'s
propane which is prohibitively expensive so we would never
consider recirculation.

Correct. New regulation actually demand that the user press a
button before using the faucet, so that the heat recirculation
pump had time to get the water warm right before the user needs
it

Who comes up with such weird laws? Now every house needs a button
wired to each sink and shower? Which, of course, needs to be very
well safety-isolated. That drives up the cost of homes.

Did you leave your common sense at home today? Low voltage wiring
like this needs NO protection.

And how is that low voltage made? Think!

Through a low voltage transformer that provides protection.

No. That is not enough for bathroom use.

What are YOU thinking of??? Why do I have to do your thinking for you?

Then start thinking for once

What is wrong with a SELV
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extra-low_voltage#Separated_or_safety_extra-low_voltage_(SELV)
circuit ?

In the end it\'s expensive, you can\'t just use a doorbell transformer and
call it a day.
SELV just requires that the double insulated transformer is feeding a
single circuit, which is separated from ground and other circuits.
That shouldn\'t be too expensive to implement.

The stuff must be certified. Then you have all kinds of
electrical codes, different between countries. For example, in many
jurisdictions you must maintain a significant separation between LV
control wires and mains cables going into the same bathroom. Can become
a real headache for installers. And on and on.
That is an other national issue.

I have designed a lot of stuff for markets with similar rules and the
regulatory work alone is no small feat.

In Europe, another factor is that homes are generally brick or concrete
walled. You can\'t just fish another cables through the studs behind
drywall or Hardiebacker, you\'ll be slotting and busting through walls
using hydraulic hammer tools. BTDT. That adds a major cost.
I have never seen hydraulic hammers used for making holes into
concrete walls at hones. An electric drill with some hammer action is
sufficient.

Wireless may be the better option here, especially considering retrofits
and full bathroom remodels.
If the pump is relatively close and fed from the same phase, why not
use some form of power line communication ?

J

#### Jasen Betts

##### Guest
On 2020-08-06, Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:

(We\'re planning on burying a 2500G tank -- purchase is subsidized -- once we
figure out how to get a backhoe into the back yard!
Maybe you can get it in from a neighbours back yard.

--
Jasen.

P

#### Pimpom

##### Guest
On 8/6/2020 9:36 AM, Don Y wrote:
On 8/5/2020 8:44 PM, Tony Stewart wrote:
On Wed. 05 Aug.-20 11:08 a.m., Don Y wrote:
On 8/5/2020 7:07 AM, Ricketty C wrote:
On Wednesday, August 5, 2020 at 5:58:16 AM UTC-4, Klaus Kragelund wrote:

There is a big market in the US still, so there must be a lot of
installtions throughout the country:

https://www.marketresearchfuture.com/reports/hot-water-circulator-pump-market-4903

Cheers

Klaus

Lumping residential, commercial and industrial uses into a single number.
I\'ve never seen a house with this sort of hot water recirculation in my life
and I\'ve seen a lot of houses.

https://www.thisoldhouse.com/plumbing/21017274/how-to-get-hot-water-with-a-recirculating-pump

To have a payback period for the investment in this system, the cost of
insulating all the pipes which are dissipating heat loss when the hot water is
not being used must be considered and the insulation of the pipes must be
included. Otherwise it the loss of water vs the loss of unused heat energy.
Perhaps best considered for new construction.
I know someone in Belgium who recycles rain water and grey water for some low
quality needs with holding tanks.

Of course! The TV show cited addressed the homeowner\'s problem (existing
house, consider what it would take to open the walls to insulate the pipes!)
of not getting hot water on an upper-floor bathroom.

Rainwater harvesting is rather common, here (US Southwest). It\'s not
uncommon to see a 1,000G tank in someone\'s side/back yard.

(We\'re planning on burying a 2500G tank -- purchase is subsidized -- once we
figure out how to get a backhoe into the back yard! We have 6 citrus trees
so use a sh*tload of water for irrigation)
We have a 12000-liter (~3200 US gal.) tank but we no longer use
it to store rain water as the top is now higher than the roof
after I extended the capacity 30 years ago.

Storage of water is a necessity here as we don\'t have a
continuous public supply. It\'s distributed once a week. Some
people have large underground tanks and they pump up the water to

D

#### Don Y

##### Guest
On 8/5/2020 10:54 PM, Jasen Betts wrote:
On 2020-08-06, Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:

(We\'re planning on burying a 2500G tank -- purchase is subsidized -- once we
figure out how to get a backhoe into the back yard!

Maybe you can get it in from a neighbours back yard.
There are walls surrounding each yard. So, in addition to convincing
a neighbor to let me drive it across their yard, I\'d also have to
convince them to let me dismantle the shared wall (which would mean
I\'d have to later reassemble it and match whatever color they had
painted THEIR side -- in addition to mine).

D

#### Don Y

##### Guest
On 8/5/2020 11:51 PM, Pimpom wrote:
On 8/6/2020 9:36 AM, Don Y wrote:
On 8/5/2020 8:44 PM, Tony Stewart wrote:
On Wed. 05 Aug.-20 11:08 a.m., Don Y wrote:
On 8/5/2020 7:07 AM, Ricketty C wrote:
On Wednesday, August 5, 2020 at 5:58:16 AM UTC-4, Klaus Kragelund wrote:

There is a big market in the US still, so there must be a lot of
installtions throughout the country:

https://www.marketresearchfuture.com/reports/hot-water-circulator-pump-market-4903

Cheers

Klaus

Lumping residential, commercial and industrial uses into a single number.
I\'ve never seen a house with this sort of hot water recirculation in my life
and I\'ve seen a lot of houses.

https://www.thisoldhouse.com/plumbing/21017274/how-to-get-hot-water-with-a-recirculating-pump

To have a payback period for the investment in this system, the cost of
insulating all the pipes which are dissipating heat loss when the hot water is
not being used must be considered and the insulation of the pipes must be
included. Otherwise it the loss of water vs the loss of unused heat energy.
Perhaps best considered for new construction.
I know someone in Belgium who recycles rain water and grey water for some low
quality needs with holding tanks.

Of course! The TV show cited addressed the homeowner\'s problem (existing
house, consider what it would take to open the walls to insulate the pipes!)
of not getting hot water on an upper-floor bathroom.

Rainwater harvesting is rather common, here (US Southwest). It\'s not
uncommon to see a 1,000G tank in someone\'s side/back yard.

(We\'re planning on burying a 2500G tank -- purchase is subsidized -- once we
figure out how to get a backhoe into the back yard! We have 6 citrus trees
so use a sh*tload of water for irrigation)

We have a 12000-liter (~3200 US gal.) tank but we no longer use it to store
rain water as the top is now higher than the roof after I extended the capacity
30 years ago.

Storage of water is a necessity here as we don\'t have a continuous public
supply. It\'s distributed once a week. Some people have large underground tanks
and they pump up the water to a smaller overhead tank.
That\'s how things are in Mexico. The \"water truck\" comes by weekly (?)
to top off a rooftop storage tank on each home. Because domestic water
is scarce, you don\'t take 40 minute showers :> Rather, you take sponge baths
and \"bathe\" in the ocean.

P

#### Pimpom

##### Guest
On 8/6/2020 1:20 PM, Don Y wrote:
On 8/5/2020 11:51 PM, Pimpom wrote:
On 8/6/2020 9:36 AM, Don Y wrote:
On 8/5/2020 8:44 PM, Tony Stewart wrote:
On Wed. 05 Aug.-20 11:08 a.m., Don Y wrote:
On 8/5/2020 7:07 AM, Ricketty C wrote:
On Wednesday, August 5, 2020 at 5:58:16 AM UTC-4, Klaus Kragelund wrote:

There is a big market in the US still, so there must be a lot of
installtions throughout the country:

https://www.marketresearchfuture.com/reports/hot-water-circulator-pump-market-4903

Cheers

Klaus

Lumping residential, commercial and industrial uses into a single number.
I\'ve never seen a house with this sort of hot water recirculation in my life
and I\'ve seen a lot of houses.

https://www.thisoldhouse.com/plumbing/21017274/how-to-get-hot-water-with-a-recirculating-pump

To have a payback period for the investment in this system, the cost of
insulating all the pipes which are dissipating heat loss when the hot water is
not being used must be considered and the insulation of the pipes must be
included. Otherwise it the loss of water vs the loss of unused heat energy.
Perhaps best considered for new construction.
I know someone in Belgium who recycles rain water and grey water for some low
quality needs with holding tanks.

Of course! The TV show cited addressed the homeowner\'s problem (existing
house, consider what it would take to open the walls to insulate the pipes!)
of not getting hot water on an upper-floor bathroom.

Rainwater harvesting is rather common, here (US Southwest). It\'s not
uncommon to see a 1,000G tank in someone\'s side/back yard.

(We\'re planning on burying a 2500G tank -- purchase is subsidized -- once we
figure out how to get a backhoe into the back yard! We have 6 citrus trees
so use a sh*tload of water for irrigation)

We have a 12000-liter (~3200 US gal.) tank but we no longer use it to store
rain water as the top is now higher than the roof after I extended the capacity
30 years ago.

Storage of water is a necessity here as we don\'t have a continuous public
supply. It\'s distributed once a week. Some people have large underground tanks
and they pump up the water to a smaller overhead tank.

That\'s how things are in Mexico. The \"water truck\" comes by weekly (?)
to top off a rooftop storage tank on each home. Because domestic water
is scarce, you don\'t take 40 minute showers :> Rather, you take sponge baths
and \"bathe\" in the ocean.
It\'s not quite as bad as that here. The distribution is done by a
network of pipes gravity-fed by huge wells or steel tanks located
at elevated locations. These mass storages receive treated river
water pumped up from locations up to 4000 ft lower and several
kilometers away. A worker comes around and opens valves to
individual houses and closes them again after an hour or two.
Consumers pay about 0.08 US cent per liter (0.3Â¢ per US gallon).

T

#### Tabby

##### Guest
On Thursday, 6 August 2020 03:04:15 UTC+1, Don Y wrote:
On 8/5/2020 5:57 PM, Tabby wrote:
On Wednesday, 5 August 2020 12:48:10 UTC+1, Don Y wrote:

Now, if the pump could PREDICT it\'s imminent failure and alert me to that
fact, it adds real value in that it lets me avoid living without heat
while looking for a replacement pump!

Wouldn\'t be hard to do when the failure is the main bearing, or blockage
from muck. Speed irregularity & reduced resistance respectively.

I don\'t know if sensor(s) that could deduce this would inherently
be part of the design (?) -- possibly speed but how would it
\"inexpensively\" sense drag/resistance?

[I try to deduce stuff from sensors that are already in place for
some other purpose]

I mounted an accelerometer on the side of our furnace (which is
a superfluous sensor as it isn\'t needed to control the furnace\'s
operation) and it was able to alert me to a failing blower motor.

But, that\'s a hefty motor spinning a sizeable load -- very easy
to get a \"wobble\" going as the motor fails.

become audible as the furnace would shake/tremble)
I assume the electonic supply already knows the v, i, f going to the motor. From that it could deduce uneven speed, much reduced drag & stall.

NT

T

#### Tabby

##### Guest
On Thursday, 6 August 2020 04:53:03 UTC+1, Ricketty C wrote:
On Wednesday, August 5, 2020 at 9:08:08 PM UTC-4, Tabby wrote:
On Wednesday, 5 August 2020 18:29:10 UTC+1, Ricketty C wrote:
On Wednesday, August 5, 2020 at 1:09:26 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:

If it absolutely has to be done I\'d automate that. Asking a resident to
remember to press such a button does not make sense to me. People will
water tap or on the toilet. If the person doesn\'t quickly move around or
away this starts the recirculating pump. When the person surprisingly
walks away again or if the person turns on the warm water (flow,
pressure drop) the pump turns off again.

Yeah, that\'s a very simple trouble free approach... really??? What\'s wrong with instant on? In the households in the EU the house current provides for more power availability in a standard circuit, over 2 kW vs about 1..4 kW here. That\'s plenty for instant on.

240v 32A is 7.7kW.

I was thinking more of the 9 amp circuits that I believe are common in the UK. We tend to have 15 amp 120 volts in the US, sometimes 20 amps in certain uses. 20 amps at 120 volts is practically the same as 9 amps, 240 volts and is a fair amount of water heating. It may not be enough for a shower though. I did some not so quick calculations that show 9 amp, 240 volts will raise about a third of a gallon by 25 Â°F each minute. The average shower uses around 2 gal a minute, so more power is needed, around 6 times as much or more like 60 amps at 240 volts!

But then who cares if they need to wait 30 seconds to get hot water for the shower? When having forgotten to turn the hot water heater back on the other day, I found the water in the tank is sufficiently hot to take a shower in just a few minutes, less than 10. I\'m curious as to just how much the water heater is actually on when no water is drawn.

My utility provides hour by hour usage data and I see intermittent spikes in my usage that are likely the water heater. There is some granularity in the kWhr reading but it looks like 0.4 kWHr each 5 hours for around 80 watts consumption not counting hot water drawn.

I\'m glad I did this calculation. Installing a timer on the hot water heater will save me around \$40 a year on my TOU bill. Marginally worth it since it\'s not something I can just buy and install without either spending a bunch of money (240 volt stuff tends to be commercial \$\$\$) or having to rig up a relay to control the 240 from a 120 volt device. Not going to worry with that just now.
9A circuits don\'t exist here, and afaik never have. (I\'m reasonably familiar with wiring practices going back to around 1910.) Sockets circuits are mostly 32A, some 20A, some 30A, a few 15A or 16A.

NT

T

#### Tabby

##### Guest
On Thursday, 6 August 2020 09:42:17 UTC+1, Pimpom wrote:
On 8/6/2020 1:20 PM, Don Y wrote:
On 8/5/2020 11:51 PM, Pimpom wrote:
On 8/6/2020 9:36 AM, Don Y wrote:
On 8/5/2020 8:44 PM, Tony Stewart wrote:

I know someone in Belgium who recycles rain water and grey water for some low
quality needs with holding tanks.

Of course! The TV show cited addressed the homeowner\'s problem (existing
house, consider what it would take to open the walls to insulate the pipes!)
of not getting hot water on an upper-floor bathroom.

Rainwater harvesting is rather common, here (US Southwest). It\'s not
uncommon to see a 1,000G tank in someone\'s side/back yard.

(We\'re planning on burying a 2500G tank -- purchase is subsidized -- once we
figure out how to get a backhoe into the back yard! We have 6 citrus trees
so use a sh*tload of water for irrigation)

We have a 12000-liter (~3200 US gal.) tank but we no longer use it to store
rain water as the top is now higher than the roof after I extended the capacity
30 years ago.

Storage of water is a necessity here as we don\'t have a continuous public
supply. It\'s distributed once a week. Some people have large underground tanks
and they pump up the water to a smaller overhead tank.

That\'s how things are in Mexico. The \"water truck\" comes by weekly (?)
to top off a rooftop storage tank on each home. Because domestic water
is scarce, you don\'t take 40 minute showers :> Rather, you take sponge baths
and \"bathe\" in the ocean.

It\'s not quite as bad as that here. The distribution is done by a
network of pipes gravity-fed by huge wells or steel tanks located
at elevated locations. These mass storages receive treated river
water pumped up from locations up to 4000 ft lower and several
kilometers away. A worker comes around and opens valves to
individual houses and closes them again after an hour or two.
Consumers pay about 0.08 US cent per liter (0.3Â¢ per US gallon).
Looks like we pay 41p a litre in UK, unless I\'ve miscalculated.
Average use 276 litres/day per house, average Â£34.58 per month.
I had no idea it was that expensive per litre. Suddenly people buying bottled water doesn\'t seem foolish.

NT

K

#### Klaus Kragelund

##### Guest
On Thursday, August 6, 2020 at 1:05:42 AM UTC+2, Joerg wrote:
On 2020-08-05 15:07, Jasen Betts wrote:
On 2020-08-05, Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> wrote:
On 2020-08-05 11:53, Ricketty C wrote:
On Wednesday, August 5, 2020 at 1:53:32 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
On 2020-08-05 10:29, Ricketty C wrote:
On Wednesday, August 5, 2020 at 1:09:26 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
On 2020-08-05 03:11, Klaus Kragelund wrote:
On Wednesday, August 5, 2020 at 12:17:27 AM UTC+2, Joerg wrote:
On 2020-08-04 00:38, Klaus Kragelund wrote:
Hi

Triggered by the HVAC wiring thread, just out of curiosity:

Some of you probably have a circulation pump in the house,
or several depending on the system.

Do you care about the efficiency of that one, say instead of
using 30W, you could buy a more expensive one that consumes
25W for the same pump performance? (that would correlate to
a electricity savings of maybe 4 USD per year for a 50% duty
ratio)

Would you spend +10 USD more on that pump, for a payback
period of less than 4 years?

Yes, but ... in the US circulation pumps are not popular or
sometimes turned off. This has a simple reason and mostly in
left-leaning states where electricity and gas are expensive.
Having to run out some cold water before it gets warm does
waste water but that is often more than an order of magnitude
cheaper that the energy used by a recirculating system. Not so
much the electricity for the pump but the loss of thermal
energy in the water going round and round. In our case it\'s
propane which is prohibitively expensive so we would never
consider recirculation.

Correct. New regulation actually demand that the user press a
button before using the faucet, so that the heat recirculation
pump had time to get the water warm right before the user needs
it

Who comes up with such weird laws? Now every house needs a button
wired to each sink and shower? Which, of course, needs to be very
well safety-isolated. That drives up the cost of homes.

Did you leave your common sense at home today? Low voltage wiring
like this needs NO protection.

And how is that low voltage made? Think!

Through a low voltage transformer that provides protection.

No. That is not enough for bathroom use.

Assuming SELV, it\'s absolutely enough.

.Zone 1 (high splash risk like in a shower enclosure above the tray, above a bath tub)
.
.Requires electrical products to be IPX4 or better, or SELV with the
.transformer located beyond zone 2.

In most jurisdictions you are not allowed to run the cables close to
mains wiring and that\'s not a trivial matter in a cramped bathroom.
Klaus is likely thinking more about Europe first and those rooms aren\'t
big over there.
AFAIK running SELV close to mains wire is ok. The insulation on the wire just needs to have double insulation from bare wire to wire. So in principle basic insulation on each wire itself. Right?

Cheers

Klaus

K

#### Klaus Kragelund

##### Guest
On Thursday, August 6, 2020 at 12:04:38 AM UTC+2, Joerg wrote:
On 2020-08-05 13:37, upsidedown@downunder.com wrote:
On Wed, 05 Aug 2020 12:13:33 -0700, Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com
wrote:

On 2020-08-05 11:53, Ricketty C wrote:
On Wednesday, August 5, 2020 at 1:53:32 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
On 2020-08-05 10:29, Ricketty C wrote:
On Wednesday, August 5, 2020 at 1:09:26 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
On 2020-08-05 03:11, Klaus Kragelund wrote:
On Wednesday, August 5, 2020 at 12:17:27 AM UTC+2, Joerg wrote:
On 2020-08-04 00:38, Klaus Kragelund wrote:
Hi

Triggered by the HVAC wiring thread, just out of curiosity:

Some of you probably have a circulation pump in the house,
or several depending on the system.

Do you care about the efficiency of that one, say instead of
using 30W, you could buy a more expensive one that consumes
25W for the same pump performance? (that would correlate to
a electricity savings of maybe 4 USD per year for a 50% duty
ratio)

Would you spend +10 USD more on that pump, for a payback
period of less than 4 years?

Yes, but ... in the US circulation pumps are not popular or
sometimes turned off. This has a simple reason and mostly in
left-leaning states where electricity and gas are expensive.
Having to run out some cold water before it gets warm does
waste water but that is often more than an order of magnitude
cheaper that the energy used by a recirculating system. Not so
much the electricity for the pump but the loss of thermal
energy in the water going round and round. In our case it\'s
propane which is prohibitively expensive so we would never
consider recirculation.

Correct. New regulation actually demand that the user press a
button before using the faucet, so that the heat recirculation
pump had time to get the water warm right before the user needs
it

Who comes up with such weird laws? Now every house needs a button
wired to each sink and shower? Which, of course, needs to be very
well safety-isolated. That drives up the cost of homes.

Did you leave your common sense at home today? Low voltage wiring
like this needs NO protection.

And how is that low voltage made? Think!

Through a low voltage transformer that provides protection.

No. That is not enough for bathroom use.

What are YOU thinking of??? Why do I have to do your thinking for you?

Then start thinking for once

What is wrong with a SELV
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extra-low_voltage#Separated_or_safety_extra-low_voltage_(SELV)
circuit ?

In the end it\'s expensive, you can\'t just use a doorbell transformer and
call it a day. The stuff must be certified. Then you have all kinds of
electrical codes, different between countries. For example, in many
jurisdictions you must maintain a significant separation between LV
control wires and mains cables going into the same bathroom. Can become
a real headache for installers. And on and on.

I have designed a lot of stuff for markets with similar rules and the
regulatory work alone is no small feat.

SELV transformer is not expensive at all. Notice for this application, just getting input from a button, it needs no power at all. So a coreless transformer on the PCB and your done. Cheap as sh*t, probably a couple of cents (you can even just look at the impedance of the transformer, to detect a short of the button)
Cheers

Klaus

D

#### Don Y

##### Guest
On 8/6/2020 3:06 AM, Tabby wrote:
On Thursday, 6 August 2020 03:04:15 UTC+1, Don Y wrote:
On 8/5/2020 5:57 PM, Tabby wrote:
On Wednesday, 5 August 2020 12:48:10 UTC+1, Don Y wrote:

Now, if the pump could PREDICT it\'s imminent failure and alert me to
that fact, it adds real value in that it lets me avoid living without
heat while looking for a replacement pump!

Wouldn\'t be hard to do when the failure is the main bearing, or
blockage from muck. Speed irregularity & reduced resistance
respectively.

I don\'t know if sensor(s) that could deduce this would inherently be part
of the design (?) -- possibly speed but how would it \"inexpensively\" sense
drag/resistance?

[I try to deduce stuff from sensors that are already in place for some
other purpose]

I mounted an accelerometer on the side of our furnace (which is a
superfluous sensor as it isn\'t needed to control the furnace\'s operation)
and it was able to alert me to a failing blower motor.

But, that\'s a hefty motor spinning a sizeable load -- very easy to get a
\"wobble\" going as the motor fails.

become audible as the furnace would shake/tremble)

I assume the electonic supply already knows the v, i, f going to the motor.
From that it could deduce uneven speed, much reduced drag & stall.
In *my* case, no. Motor has different windings for different
speeds so its the motor that changes (to spin slower/faster)

[I can\'t speak for Klaus\' motor!]

D

#### Don Y

##### Guest
On 8/6/2020 3:21 AM, Tabby wrote:
On Thursday, 6 August 2020 09:42:17 UTC+1, Pimpom wrote:
It\'s not quite as bad as that here. The distribution is done by a network
of pipes gravity-fed by huge wells or steel tanks located at elevated
locations. These mass storages receive treated river water pumped up from
locations up to 4000 ft lower and several kilometers away. A worker comes
around and opens valves to individual houses and closes them again after
an hour or two. Consumers pay about 0.08 US cent per liter (0.3Â¢ per US
gallon).

Looks like we pay 41p a litre in UK, unless I\'ve miscalculated. Average use
276 litres/day per house, average Â£34.58 per month. I had no idea it was
that expensive per litre. Suddenly people buying bottled water doesn\'t seem
foolish.
Bottled water ALWAYS seems foolish -- as it inevitably is just \"tap
water\" bottled elsewhere!

\"Water\", here, is relatively cheap. It is metered in units of hundreds
of cubic feet (this is the US... all sorts of wonky units of measure!).
1CF = ~7.5G =~ 28L. 100CF = 1CCF = ~750G = ~2800L.

[all figures are in-my-head estimates... figure 1-2 digits]

Pricing is set up in tiers to penalize bigger users. In our case,
the first 7 are \$2.07/CCF so ~ 0.1c/L (\$.001/L). But, it quickly climbs
with usage: the next 8 are \$3.82/CCF and the 15 after that are \$8.39/CCF.
Surpassing 31 CCF per month the marginal rate increases to \$12.93/CCF.

To put things in perspective, our monthly consumption in the Winter months
is about 5 CCF. In the hottest Summer months, this climbs to ~20 CCF
(though usually only for a month or two).

But, you can\'t just buy the water; you also have to pay for it\'s
post-processing (sewer charges). And, \"green stormwater\" charges.
And, monthly service charge (for the privilege of having a water
meter). And, monthly SEWER service charge. And, charges to
have CAP (Central Arizona Project) water delivered. And,
charges to CONSERVE water (WTF???). Plus state and local taxes.

[\"Trash pickup\" is also billed on the \"water bill\"... ~\$20/month]

water consumption (e.g., irrigation, evaporative losses incurred
by swimming pools, etc.). But, it\'s a double-edged sword; each
residence\'s \"winter usage\" is used to set the \"nominal household use\"
rate (the first tier). In theory, this keeps sewer charges down
because your sewer usage is billed on this \"winter average\" rate.
Otherwise dominate the cost at ~\$4/CCF. (The other \"edge\" is
that it sets the positions of the \"tiers\" which makes WATER
costs go up quicker!)

[Of course, the water department demands rate increases because
we are overtaxing their supplies and delivery system. Then,
as we, as a whole, conserve, they demand increases because we\'re
not USING enough (I kid you not)!]

Anyway... there is a big incentive to conserve (and NOT plant
frigging citrus trees OR have swimming pools). So, techniques
to control water consumption merit attention.

E.g., watering \"grass\" evaporates 40% of the water BEFORE it
actually touches the grass! A swimming pool loses up to an
inch of water, daily.

[We only receive 11 inches of precipitation, annually]

P

#### Pimpom

##### Guest
On 8/6/2020 3:51 PM, Tabby wrote:
On Thursday, 6 August 2020 09:42:17 UTC+1, Pimpom wrote:
On 8/6/2020 1:20 PM, Don Y wrote:
On 8/5/2020 11:51 PM, Pimpom wrote:
On 8/6/2020 9:36 AM, Don Y wrote:
On 8/5/2020 8:44 PM, Tony Stewart wrote:

I know someone in Belgium who recycles rain water and grey water for some low
quality needs with holding tanks.

Of course! The TV show cited addressed the homeowner\'s problem (existing
house, consider what it would take to open the walls to insulate the pipes!)
of not getting hot water on an upper-floor bathroom.

Rainwater harvesting is rather common, here (US Southwest). It\'s not
uncommon to see a 1,000G tank in someone\'s side/back yard.

(We\'re planning on burying a 2500G tank -- purchase is subsidized -- once we
figure out how to get a backhoe into the back yard! We have 6 citrus trees
so use a sh*tload of water for irrigation)

We have a 12000-liter (~3200 US gal.) tank but we no longer use it to store
rain water as the top is now higher than the roof after I extended the capacity
30 years ago.

Storage of water is a necessity here as we don\'t have a continuous public
supply. It\'s distributed once a week. Some people have large underground tanks
and they pump up the water to a smaller overhead tank.

That\'s how things are in Mexico. The \"water truck\" comes by weekly (?)
to top off a rooftop storage tank on each home. Because domestic water
is scarce, you don\'t take 40 minute showers :> Rather, you take sponge baths
and \"bathe\" in the ocean.

It\'s not quite as bad as that here. The distribution is done by a
network of pipes gravity-fed by huge wells or steel tanks located
at elevated locations. These mass storages receive treated river
water pumped up from locations up to 4000 ft lower and several
kilometers away. A worker comes around and opens valves to
individual houses and closes them again after an hour or two.
Consumers pay about 0.08 US cent per liter (0.3Â¢ per US gallon).

Looks like we pay 41p a litre in UK, unless I\'ve miscalculated.
Average use 276 litres/day per house, average Â£34.58 per month.
I had no idea it was that expensive per litre. Suddenly people buying bottled water doesn\'t seem foolish.
I think you did miscalculate - by a factor of 100. 276 litres/day
is about 8.5 kl/mo. At 41p/l that would be about Â£3.5k a month!
There are 8 adults in my house including a live-in maid. The
water bill is around Â£18 a month.

R

#### Ricketty C

##### Guest
On Thursday, August 6, 2020 at 6:11:40 AM UTC-4, Tabby wrote:
On Thursday, 6 August 2020 04:53:03 UTC+1, Ricketty C wrote:
On Wednesday, August 5, 2020 at 9:08:08 PM UTC-4, Tabby wrote:
On Wednesday, 5 August 2020 18:29:10 UTC+1, Ricketty C wrote:
On Wednesday, August 5, 2020 at 1:09:26 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:

If it absolutely has to be done I\'d automate that. Asking a resident to
remember to press such a button does not make sense to me. People will
water tap or on the toilet. If the person doesn\'t quickly move around or
away this starts the recirculating pump. When the person surprisingly
walks away again or if the person turns on the warm water (flow,
pressure drop) the pump turns off again.

Yeah, that\'s a very simple trouble free approach... really??? What\'s wrong with instant on? In the households in the EU the house current provides for more power availability in a standard circuit, over 2 kW vs about 1.4 kW here. That\'s plenty for instant on.

240v 32A is 7.7kW.

I was thinking more of the 9 amp circuits that I believe are common in the UK. We tend to have 15 amp 120 volts in the US, sometimes 20 amps in certain uses. 20 amps at 120 volts is practically the same as 9 amps, 240 volts and is a fair amount of water heating. It may not be enough for a shower though. I did some not so quick calculations that show 9 amp, 240 volts will raise about a third of a gallon by 25 Â°F each minute. The average shower uses around 2 gal a minute, so more power is needed, around 6 times as much or more like 60 amps at 240 volts!

But then who cares if they need to wait 30 seconds to get hot water for the shower? When having forgotten to turn the hot water heater back on the other day, I found the water in the tank is sufficiently hot to take a shower in just a few minutes, less than 10. I\'m curious as to just how much the water heater is actually on when no water is drawn.

My utility provides hour by hour usage data and I see intermittent spikes in my usage that are likely the water heater. There is some granularity in the kWhr reading but it looks like 0.4 kWHr each 5 hours for around 80 watts consumption not counting hot water drawn.

I\'m glad I did this calculation. Installing a timer on the hot water heater will save me around \$40 a year on my TOU bill. Marginally worth it since it\'s not something I can just buy and install without either spending a bunch of money (240 volt stuff tends to be commercial \$\$\$) or having to rig up a relay to control the 240 from a 120 volt device. Not going to worry with that just now.

9A circuits don\'t exist here, and afaik never have. (I\'m reasonably familiar with wiring practices going back to around 1910.) Sockets circuits are mostly 32A, some 20A, some 30A, a few 15A or 16A.
Where is \"here\" and what connectors do you use for these various circuits?

--

Rick C.

---+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
---+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

R

#### Ricketty C

##### Guest
On Thursday, August 6, 2020 at 10:50:18 AM UTC-4, Pimpom wrote:
On 8/6/2020 3:51 PM, Tabby wrote:
On Thursday, 6 August 2020 09:42:17 UTC+1, Pimpom wrote:
On 8/6/2020 1:20 PM, Don Y wrote:
On 8/5/2020 11:51 PM, Pimpom wrote:
On 8/6/2020 9:36 AM, Don Y wrote:
On 8/5/2020 8:44 PM, Tony Stewart wrote:

I know someone in Belgium who recycles rain water and grey water for some low
quality needs with holding tanks.

Of course! The TV show cited addressed the homeowner\'s problem (existing
house, consider what it would take to open the walls to insulate the pipes!)
of not getting hot water on an upper-floor bathroom.

Rainwater harvesting is rather common, here (US Southwest). It\'s not
uncommon to see a 1,000G tank in someone\'s side/back yard.

(We\'re planning on burying a 2500G tank -- purchase is subsidized -- once we
figure out how to get a backhoe into the back yard! We have 6 citrus trees
so use a sh*tload of water for irrigation)

We have a 12000-liter (~3200 US gal.) tank but we no longer use it to store
rain water as the top is now higher than the roof after I extended the capacity
30 years ago.

Storage of water is a necessity here as we don\'t have a continuous public
supply. It\'s distributed once a week. Some people have large underground tanks
and they pump up the water to a smaller overhead tank.

That\'s how things are in Mexico. The \"water truck\" comes by weekly (?)
to top off a rooftop storage tank on each home. Because domestic water
is scarce, you don\'t take 40 minute showers :> Rather, you take sponge baths
and \"bathe\" in the ocean.

It\'s not quite as bad as that here. The distribution is done by a
network of pipes gravity-fed by huge wells or steel tanks located
at elevated locations. These mass storages receive treated river
water pumped up from locations up to 4000 ft lower and several
kilometers away. A worker comes around and opens valves to
individual houses and closes them again after an hour or two.
Consumers pay about 0.08 US cent per liter (0.3Â¢ per US gallon).

Looks like we pay 41p a litre in UK, unless I\'ve miscalculated.
Average use 276 litres/day per house, average Â£34.58 per month.
I had no idea it was that expensive per litre. Suddenly people buying bottled water doesn\'t seem foolish.

I think you did miscalculate - by a factor of 100. 276 litres/day
is about 8.5 kl/mo. At 41p/l that would be about Â£3.5k a month!
There are 8 adults in my house including a live-in maid. The
water bill is around Â£18 a month.
Yeah, 41 cents per liter (about \$2 per gallon, not sure how many burger eagles per glazed donut) would make bottled water a bargain here. I think bottled water runs more like \$0.50 per gallon so around 10p per liter, opps, litre. The big hassle would be hauling 70 gallons (560 lbs) home each day.

--

Rick C.

--+- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
--+- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

T

#### Tabby

##### Guest
On Thursday, 6 August 2020 15:50:18 UTC+1, Pimpom wrote:
On 8/6/2020 3:51 PM, Tabby wrote:
On Thursday, 6 August 2020 09:42:17 UTC+1, Pimpom wrote:
On 8/6/2020 1:20 PM, Don Y wrote:
On 8/5/2020 11:51 PM, Pimpom wrote:
On 8/6/2020 9:36 AM, Don Y wrote:
On 8/5/2020 8:44 PM, Tony Stewart wrote:

I know someone in Belgium who recycles rain water and grey water for some low
quality needs with holding tanks.

Of course! The TV show cited addressed the homeowner\'s problem (existing
house, consider what it would take to open the walls to insulate the pipes!)
of not getting hot water on an upper-floor bathroom.

Rainwater harvesting is rather common, here (US Southwest). It\'s not
uncommon to see a 1,000G tank in someone\'s side/back yard.

(We\'re planning on burying a 2500G tank -- purchase is subsidized -- once we
figure out how to get a backhoe into the back yard! We have 6 citrus trees
so use a sh*tload of water for irrigation)

We have a 12000-liter (~3200 US gal.) tank but we no longer use it to store
rain water as the top is now higher than the roof after I extended the capacity
30 years ago.

Storage of water is a necessity here as we don\'t have a continuous public
supply. It\'s distributed once a week. Some people have large underground tanks
and they pump up the water to a smaller overhead tank.

That\'s how things are in Mexico. The \"water truck\" comes by weekly (?)
to top off a rooftop storage tank on each home. Because domestic water
is scarce, you don\'t take 40 minute showers :> Rather, you take sponge baths
and \"bathe\" in the ocean.

It\'s not quite as bad as that here. The distribution is done by a
network of pipes gravity-fed by huge wells or steel tanks located
at elevated locations. These mass storages receive treated river
water pumped up from locations up to 4000 ft lower and several
kilometers away. A worker comes around and opens valves to
individual houses and closes them again after an hour or two.
Consumers pay about 0.08 US cent per liter (0.3Â¢ per US gallon).

Looks like we pay 41p a litre in UK, unless I\'ve miscalculated.
Average use 276 litres/day per house, average Â£34.58 per month.
I had no idea it was that expensive per litre. Suddenly people buying bottled water doesn\'t seem foolish.

I think you did miscalculate - by a factor of 100. 276 litres/day
is about 8.5 kl/mo. At 41p/l that would be about Â£3.5k a month!
There are 8 adults in my house including a live-in maid. The
water bill is around Â£18 a month.
Oh! 0.42 pence per litre, not pounds. Only 100x out
Â£18 for 8 adults is certainly far less than here.

NT

T

#### Tabby

##### Guest
On Thursday, 6 August 2020 14:22:25 UTC+1, Don Y wrote:
On 8/6/2020 3:21 AM, Tabby wrote:
On Thursday, 6 August 2020 09:42:17 UTC+1, Pimpom wrote:
It\'s not quite as bad as that here. The distribution is done by a network
of pipes gravity-fed by huge wells or steel tanks located at elevated
locations. These mass storages receive treated river water pumped up from
locations up to 4000 ft lower and several kilometers away. A worker comes
around and opens valves to individual houses and closes them again after
an hour or two. Consumers pay about 0.08 US cent per liter (0.3Â¢ per US
gallon).

Looks like we pay 41p a litre in UK, unless I\'ve miscalculated. Average use
276 litres/day per house, average Â£34.58 per month. I had no idea it was
that expensive per litre. Suddenly people buying bottled water doesn\'t seem
foolish.

Bottled water ALWAYS seems foolish -- as it inevitably is just \"tap
water\" bottled elsewhere!
AIUI it\'s a good bit worse. A lot of quality standards apply to tap water that bottled water generally doesn\'t meet. Spring water is worse than mineral water, here in UK anyway. They\'re not normally bottled tap water, though spring water could be legally.

NT

L

##### Guest
torsdag den 6. august 2020 kl. 12.21.09 UTC+2 skrev Tabby:
On Thursday, 6 August 2020 09:42:17 UTC+1, Pimpom wrote:
On 8/6/2020 1:20 PM, Don Y wrote:
On 8/5/2020 11:51 PM, Pimpom wrote:
On 8/6/2020 9:36 AM, Don Y wrote:
On 8/5/2020 8:44 PM, Tony Stewart wrote:

I know someone in Belgium who recycles rain water and grey water for some low
quality needs with holding tanks.

Of course! The TV show cited addressed the homeowner\'s problem (existing
house, consider what it would take to open the walls to insulate the pipes!)
of not getting hot water on an upper-floor bathroom.

Rainwater harvesting is rather common, here (US Southwest). It\'s not
uncommon to see a 1,000G tank in someone\'s side/back yard.

(We\'re planning on burying a 2500G tank -- purchase is subsidized -- once we
figure out how to get a backhoe into the back yard! We have 6 citrus trees
so use a sh*tload of water for irrigation)

We have a 12000-liter (~3200 US gal.) tank but we no longer use it to store
rain water as the top is now higher than the roof after I extended the capacity
30 years ago.

Storage of water is a necessity here as we don\'t have a continuous public
supply. It\'s distributed once a week. Some people have large underground tanks
and they pump up the water to a smaller overhead tank.

That\'s how things are in Mexico. The \"water truck\" comes by weekly (?)
to top off a rooftop storage tank on each home. Because domestic water
is scarce, you don\'t take 40 minute showers :> Rather, you take sponge baths
and \"bathe\" in the ocean.

It\'s not quite as bad as that here. The distribution is done by a
network of pipes gravity-fed by huge wells or steel tanks located
at elevated locations. These mass storages receive treated river
water pumped up from locations up to 4000 ft lower and several
kilometers away. A worker comes around and opens valves to
individual houses and closes them again after an hour or two.
Consumers pay about 0.08 US cent per liter (0.3Â¢ per US gallon).

Looks like we pay 41p a litre in UK, unless I\'ve miscalculated.
Average use 276 litres/day per house, average Â£34.58 per month.
I had no idea it was that expensive per litre. Suddenly people buying bottled water doesn\'t seem foolish.
you are off by a factor of 100, 276l/day and Â£34.58/month is ~\$4/m^3 or Â£0.004/liter

here it is ... ~Â£7/m^3 and two thirds of that is sewage \"tax\"