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Energy savings, do you care?...

  • Thread starter Klaus Kragelund
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Ricketty C

Guest
On Wednesday, August 5, 2020 at 1:09:26 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
On 2020-08-05 03:11, Klaus Kragelund wrote:
On Wednesday, August 5, 2020 at 12:17:27 AM UTC+2, Joerg wrote:
On 2020-08-04 00:38, Klaus Kragelund wrote:
Hi

Triggered by the HVAC wiring thread, just out of curiosity:

Some of you probably have a circulation pump in the house, or
several depending on the system.

Do you care about the efficiency of that one, say instead of
using 30W, you could buy a more expensive one that consumes 25W
for the same pump performance? (that would correlate to a
electricity savings of maybe 4 USD per year for a 50% duty
ratio)

Would you spend +10 USD more on that pump, for a payback period
of less than 4 years?


Yes, but ... in the US circulation pumps are not popular or
sometimes turned off. This has a simple reason and mostly in
left-leaning states where electricity and gas are expensive. Having
to run out some cold water before it gets warm does waste water but
that is often more than an order of magnitude cheaper that the
energy used by a recirculating system. Not so much the electricity
for the pump but the loss of thermal energy in the water going
round and round. In our case it\'s propane which is prohibitively
expensive so we would never consider recirculation.


Correct. New regulation actually demand that the user press a button
before using the faucet, so that the heat recirculation pump had time
to get the water warm right before the user needs it


Who comes up with such weird laws? Now every house needs a button wired
to each sink and shower? Which, of course, needs to be very well
safety-isolated. That drives up the cost of homes.
Did you leave your common sense at home today? Low voltage wiring like this needs NO protection. The protection is on the high voltage wiring. Yes, it adds the cost of the button and the wire. Not sure you can sell a house for $300,005 dollars when they should be $299,999.


Here in the US we simply don\'t have recirculating pumps except maybe in
upscale mansions where the cost for the energy to heat water doesn\'t
matter much.
It would make sense to save water perhaps, but much easier and more cost effective to use an instant-on water heater. Why bother with the whole hot water plumbing system, much less a recirculating loop with it\'s operating costs.


If it absolutely has to be done I\'d automate that. Asking a resident to
remember to press such a button does not make sense to me. People will
forget. How about this: A sensor detects that a person is near a warm
water tap or on the toilet. If the person doesn\'t quickly move around or
away this starts the recirculating pump. When the person surprisingly
walks away again or if the person turns on the warm water (flow,
pressure drop) the pump turns off again.
Yeah, that\'s a very simple trouble free approach... really??? What\'s wrong with instant on? In the households in the EU the house current provides for more power availability in a standard circuit, over 2 kW vs about 1.4 kW here. That\'s plenty for instant on.


Also, would a IOT connected pump be a sales parameter? (say it
breaks down, you can get a email notification, so you avoid a
cold house or other nuisance)


Nope, not really. IoT is popular in industry where it makes a lot
of sense. I designed some stuff in that area. For homes people are
largely disappointed. Costs a lot, doesn\'t do that much, and then
one sunny day the cloud goes permanently blank ... poof ... game is
over. This is how I got a brand new little NAS for $7.50. Their
cloud vanished. Of course, I had to hack it which was part of the
fun.

--

Cloud solutions should be with the big vendors, so little risk of a
dead device. Glad you got a cheap NAS :)


The problem is different and also happens with big vendor clouds (which
are generally used as a contract service). Goes like this:

A sales droid at Supergizmo Corporation has a smashing idea: Let\'s offer
Gizmo at or below cost, with \"free\" cloud service but when customers
want to use the cloud more extensively they can buy a $4.99/month cloud
upgrade. Then we make money. Hopefully.

Now they rent cloud space at big fat Supercloud Corporation. They must
pay hefty monthly fees for that. Several years down the road the board
of directors isn\'t all that happy about finances at Supergizmo
Corporation, so they hire a new CEO. He discovers that, hey, we do not
make any profit with Gizmo. Way fewer people opted for the $4.99 extra
package than we hoped and now we are subsidizing the rest of the
customers that don\'t buy into the extra subscription. Let\'s stop this!
... Poof, cloud gone and everyone now has a brick.
You do enjoy your fantasies, don\'t you?


I have helped design several cloud-based systems but they were
different. Commercial or high-end residential customers, forced cloud
use for every client, and reasonable monthly fees (low single digit
dollars). I cannot imagine a homeowner going for that just for a pump.
Unless it is part of a larger system with surveillance and all so the
added value is palpable.
Of course it would be part of a larger system. Not many will automate one recirculating pump in their home.

I have a single outlet switch that I use for timing my car charging or a window fan. Right now it\'s on the fan. If I find better units that I can control when the Internet is down I\'ll get more. For now this one is good enough, but I\'d like to do more like control my water heater.

--

Rick C.

+-- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
+-- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
 
J

Joerg

Guest
On 2020-08-05 10:29, Ricketty C wrote:
On Wednesday, August 5, 2020 at 1:09:26 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
On 2020-08-05 03:11, Klaus Kragelund wrote:
On Wednesday, August 5, 2020 at 12:17:27 AM UTC+2, Joerg wrote:
On 2020-08-04 00:38, Klaus Kragelund wrote:
Hi

Triggered by the HVAC wiring thread, just out of curiosity:

Some of you probably have a circulation pump in the house,
or several depending on the system.

Do you care about the efficiency of that one, say instead of
using 30W, you could buy a more expensive one that consumes
25W for the same pump performance? (that would correlate to
a electricity savings of maybe 4 USD per year for a 50% duty
ratio)

Would you spend +10 USD more on that pump, for a payback
period of less than 4 years?


Yes, but ... in the US circulation pumps are not popular or
sometimes turned off. This has a simple reason and mostly in
left-leaning states where electricity and gas are expensive.
Having to run out some cold water before it gets warm does
waste water but that is often more than an order of magnitude
cheaper that the energy used by a recirculating system. Not so
much the electricity for the pump but the loss of thermal
energy in the water going round and round. In our case it\'s
propane which is prohibitively expensive so we would never
consider recirculation.


Correct. New regulation actually demand that the user press a
button before using the faucet, so that the heat recirculation
pump had time to get the water warm right before the user needs
it


Who comes up with such weird laws? Now every house needs a button
wired to each sink and shower? Which, of course, needs to be very
well safety-isolated. That drives up the cost of homes.

Did you leave your common sense at home today? Low voltage wiring
like this needs NO protection.
And how is that low voltage made? Think!

[...]

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
 
R

Ricketty C

Guest
On Wednesday, August 5, 2020 at 1:53:32 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
On 2020-08-05 10:29, Ricketty C wrote:
On Wednesday, August 5, 2020 at 1:09:26 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
On 2020-08-05 03:11, Klaus Kragelund wrote:
On Wednesday, August 5, 2020 at 12:17:27 AM UTC+2, Joerg wrote:
On 2020-08-04 00:38, Klaus Kragelund wrote:
Hi

Triggered by the HVAC wiring thread, just out of curiosity:

Some of you probably have a circulation pump in the house,
or several depending on the system.

Do you care about the efficiency of that one, say instead of
using 30W, you could buy a more expensive one that consumes
25W for the same pump performance? (that would correlate to
a electricity savings of maybe 4 USD per year for a 50% duty
ratio)

Would you spend +10 USD more on that pump, for a payback
period of less than 4 years?


Yes, but ... in the US circulation pumps are not popular or
sometimes turned off. This has a simple reason and mostly in
left-leaning states where electricity and gas are expensive.
Having to run out some cold water before it gets warm does
waste water but that is often more than an order of magnitude
cheaper that the energy used by a recirculating system. Not so
much the electricity for the pump but the loss of thermal
energy in the water going round and round. In our case it\'s
propane which is prohibitively expensive so we would never
consider recirculation.


Correct. New regulation actually demand that the user press a
button before using the faucet, so that the heat recirculation
pump had time to get the water warm right before the user needs
it


Who comes up with such weird laws? Now every house needs a button
wired to each sink and shower? Which, of course, needs to be very
well safety-isolated. That drives up the cost of homes.

Did you leave your common sense at home today? Low voltage wiring
like this needs NO protection.


And how is that low voltage made? Think!
Through a low voltage transformer that provides protection.

What are YOU thinking of??? Why do I have to do your thinking for you?

--

Rick C.

+-+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
+-+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
 
J

Joerg

Guest
On 2020-08-05 11:53, Ricketty C wrote:
On Wednesday, August 5, 2020 at 1:53:32 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
On 2020-08-05 10:29, Ricketty C wrote:
On Wednesday, August 5, 2020 at 1:09:26 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
On 2020-08-05 03:11, Klaus Kragelund wrote:
On Wednesday, August 5, 2020 at 12:17:27 AM UTC+2, Joerg wrote:
On 2020-08-04 00:38, Klaus Kragelund wrote:
Hi

Triggered by the HVAC wiring thread, just out of curiosity:

Some of you probably have a circulation pump in the house,
or several depending on the system.

Do you care about the efficiency of that one, say instead of
using 30W, you could buy a more expensive one that consumes
25W for the same pump performance? (that would correlate to
a electricity savings of maybe 4 USD per year for a 50% duty
ratio)

Would you spend +10 USD more on that pump, for a payback
period of less than 4 years?


Yes, but ... in the US circulation pumps are not popular or
sometimes turned off. This has a simple reason and mostly in
left-leaning states where electricity and gas are expensive.
Having to run out some cold water before it gets warm does
waste water but that is often more than an order of magnitude
cheaper that the energy used by a recirculating system. Not so
much the electricity for the pump but the loss of thermal
energy in the water going round and round. In our case it\'s
propane which is prohibitively expensive so we would never
consider recirculation.


Correct. New regulation actually demand that the user press a
button before using the faucet, so that the heat recirculation
pump had time to get the water warm right before the user needs
it


Who comes up with such weird laws? Now every house needs a button
wired to each sink and shower? Which, of course, needs to be very
well safety-isolated. That drives up the cost of homes.

Did you leave your common sense at home today? Low voltage wiring
like this needs NO protection.


And how is that low voltage made? Think!

Through a low voltage transformer that provides protection.
No. That is not enough for bathroom use.


What are YOU thinking of??? Why do I have to do your thinking for you?
Then start thinking for once :)

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
 
S

server

Guest
On Wed, 05 Aug 2020 12:13:33 -0700, Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com>
wrote:

On 2020-08-05 11:53, Ricketty C wrote:
On Wednesday, August 5, 2020 at 1:53:32 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
On 2020-08-05 10:29, Ricketty C wrote:
On Wednesday, August 5, 2020 at 1:09:26 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
On 2020-08-05 03:11, Klaus Kragelund wrote:
On Wednesday, August 5, 2020 at 12:17:27 AM UTC+2, Joerg wrote:
On 2020-08-04 00:38, Klaus Kragelund wrote:
Hi

Triggered by the HVAC wiring thread, just out of curiosity:

Some of you probably have a circulation pump in the house,
or several depending on the system.

Do you care about the efficiency of that one, say instead of
using 30W, you could buy a more expensive one that consumes
25W for the same pump performance? (that would correlate to
a electricity savings of maybe 4 USD per year for a 50% duty
ratio)

Would you spend +10 USD more on that pump, for a payback
period of less than 4 years?


Yes, but ... in the US circulation pumps are not popular or
sometimes turned off. This has a simple reason and mostly in
left-leaning states where electricity and gas are expensive.
Having to run out some cold water before it gets warm does
waste water but that is often more than an order of magnitude
cheaper that the energy used by a recirculating system. Not so
much the electricity for the pump but the loss of thermal
energy in the water going round and round. In our case it\'s
propane which is prohibitively expensive so we would never
consider recirculation.


Correct. New regulation actually demand that the user press a
button before using the faucet, so that the heat recirculation
pump had time to get the water warm right before the user needs
it


Who comes up with such weird laws? Now every house needs a button
wired to each sink and shower? Which, of course, needs to be very
well safety-isolated. That drives up the cost of homes.

Did you leave your common sense at home today? Low voltage wiring
like this needs NO protection.


And how is that low voltage made? Think!

Through a low voltage transformer that provides protection.


No. That is not enough for bathroom use.


What are YOU thinking of??? Why do I have to do your thinking for you?


Then start thinking for once :)
What is wrong with a SELV
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extra-low_voltage#Separated_or_safety_extra-low_voltage_(SELV)
circuit ?
 
J

Joerg

Guest
On 2020-08-05 13:37, upsidedown@downunder.com wrote:
On Wed, 05 Aug 2020 12:13:33 -0700, Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com
wrote:

On 2020-08-05 11:53, Ricketty C wrote:
On Wednesday, August 5, 2020 at 1:53:32 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
On 2020-08-05 10:29, Ricketty C wrote:
On Wednesday, August 5, 2020 at 1:09:26 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
On 2020-08-05 03:11, Klaus Kragelund wrote:
On Wednesday, August 5, 2020 at 12:17:27 AM UTC+2, Joerg wrote:
On 2020-08-04 00:38, Klaus Kragelund wrote:
Hi

Triggered by the HVAC wiring thread, just out of curiosity:

Some of you probably have a circulation pump in the house,
or several depending on the system.

Do you care about the efficiency of that one, say instead of
using 30W, you could buy a more expensive one that consumes
25W for the same pump performance? (that would correlate to
a electricity savings of maybe 4 USD per year for a 50% duty
ratio)

Would you spend +10 USD more on that pump, for a payback
period of less than 4 years?


Yes, but ... in the US circulation pumps are not popular or
sometimes turned off. This has a simple reason and mostly in
left-leaning states where electricity and gas are expensive.
Having to run out some cold water before it gets warm does
waste water but that is often more than an order of magnitude
cheaper that the energy used by a recirculating system. Not so
much the electricity for the pump but the loss of thermal
energy in the water going round and round. In our case it\'s
propane which is prohibitively expensive so we would never
consider recirculation.


Correct. New regulation actually demand that the user press a
button before using the faucet, so that the heat recirculation
pump had time to get the water warm right before the user needs
it


Who comes up with such weird laws? Now every house needs a button
wired to each sink and shower? Which, of course, needs to be very
well safety-isolated. That drives up the cost of homes.

Did you leave your common sense at home today? Low voltage wiring
like this needs NO protection.


And how is that low voltage made? Think!

Through a low voltage transformer that provides protection.


No. That is not enough for bathroom use.


What are YOU thinking of??? Why do I have to do your thinking for you?


Then start thinking for once :)

What is wrong with a SELV
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extra-low_voltage#Separated_or_safety_extra-low_voltage_(SELV)
circuit ?
In the end it\'s expensive, you can\'t just use a doorbell transformer and
call it a day. The stuff must be certified. Then you have all kinds of
electrical codes, different between countries. For example, in many
jurisdictions you must maintain a significant separation between LV
control wires and mains cables going into the same bathroom. Can become
a real headache for installers. And on and on.

I have designed a lot of stuff for markets with similar rules and the
regulatory work alone is no small feat.

In Europe, another factor is that homes are generally brick or concrete
walled. You can\'t just fish another cables through the studs behind
drywall or Hardiebacker, you\'ll be slotting and busting through walls
using hydraulic hammer tools. BTDT. That adds a major cost.

Wireless may be the better option here, especially considering retrofits
and full bathroom remodels.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
 
K

Klaus Kragelund

Guest
On Thursday, August 6, 2020 at 12:04:38 AM UTC+2, Joerg wrote:
On 2020-08-05 13:37, upsidedown@downunder.com wrote:
On Wed, 05 Aug 2020 12:13:33 -0700, Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com
wrote:

On 2020-08-05 11:53, Ricketty C wrote:
On Wednesday, August 5, 2020 at 1:53:32 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
On 2020-08-05 10:29, Ricketty C wrote:
On Wednesday, August 5, 2020 at 1:09:26 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
On 2020-08-05 03:11, Klaus Kragelund wrote:
On Wednesday, August 5, 2020 at 12:17:27 AM UTC+2, Joerg wrote:
On 2020-08-04 00:38, Klaus Kragelund wrote:
Hi

Triggered by the HVAC wiring thread, just out of curiosity:

Some of you probably have a circulation pump in the house,
or several depending on the system.

Do you care about the efficiency of that one, say instead of
using 30W, you could buy a more expensive one that consumes
25W for the same pump performance? (that would correlate to
a electricity savings of maybe 4 USD per year for a 50% duty
ratio)

Would you spend +10 USD more on that pump, for a payback
period of less than 4 years?


Yes, but ... in the US circulation pumps are not popular or
sometimes turned off. This has a simple reason and mostly in
left-leaning states where electricity and gas are expensive.
Having to run out some cold water before it gets warm does
waste water but that is often more than an order of magnitude
cheaper that the energy used by a recirculating system. Not so
much the electricity for the pump but the loss of thermal
energy in the water going round and round. In our case it\'s
propane which is prohibitively expensive so we would never
consider recirculation.


Correct. New regulation actually demand that the user press a
button before using the faucet, so that the heat recirculation
pump had time to get the water warm right before the user needs
it


Who comes up with such weird laws? Now every house needs a button
wired to each sink and shower? Which, of course, needs to be very
well safety-isolated. That drives up the cost of homes.

Did you leave your common sense at home today? Low voltage wiring
like this needs NO protection.


And how is that low voltage made? Think!

Through a low voltage transformer that provides protection.


No. That is not enough for bathroom use.


What are YOU thinking of??? Why do I have to do your thinking for you?


Then start thinking for once :)

What is wrong with a SELV
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extra-low_voltage#Separated_or_safety_extra-low_voltage_(SELV)
circuit ?


In the end it\'s expensive, you can\'t just use a doorbell transformer and
call it a day. The stuff must be certified. Then you have all kinds of
electrical codes, different between countries. For example, in many
jurisdictions you must maintain a significant separation between LV
control wires and mains cables going into the same bathroom. Can become
a real headache for installers. And on and on.

I have designed a lot of stuff for markets with similar rules and the
regulatory work alone is no small feat.

In Europe, another factor is that homes are generally brick or concrete
walled. You can\'t just fish another cables through the studs behind
drywall or Hardiebacker, you\'ll be slotting and busting through walls
using hydraulic hammer tools. BTDT. That adds a major cost.

Wireless may be the better option here, especially considering retrofits
and full bathroom remodels.

Wireless is better
But, there are installations where the pump is below the sink, so no long routing of cable

Cheers

Klaus
 
J

Jasen Betts

Guest
On 2020-08-05, Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> wrote:
On 2020-08-05 11:53, Ricketty C wrote:
On Wednesday, August 5, 2020 at 1:53:32 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
On 2020-08-05 10:29, Ricketty C wrote:
On Wednesday, August 5, 2020 at 1:09:26 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
On 2020-08-05 03:11, Klaus Kragelund wrote:
On Wednesday, August 5, 2020 at 12:17:27 AM UTC+2, Joerg wrote:
On 2020-08-04 00:38, Klaus Kragelund wrote:
Hi

Triggered by the HVAC wiring thread, just out of curiosity:

Some of you probably have a circulation pump in the house,
or several depending on the system.

Do you care about the efficiency of that one, say instead of
using 30W, you could buy a more expensive one that consumes
25W for the same pump performance? (that would correlate to
a electricity savings of maybe 4 USD per year for a 50% duty
ratio)

Would you spend +10 USD more on that pump, for a payback
period of less than 4 years?


Yes, but ... in the US circulation pumps are not popular or
sometimes turned off. This has a simple reason and mostly in
left-leaning states where electricity and gas are expensive.
Having to run out some cold water before it gets warm does
waste water but that is often more than an order of magnitude
cheaper that the energy used by a recirculating system. Not so
much the electricity for the pump but the loss of thermal
energy in the water going round and round. In our case it\'s
propane which is prohibitively expensive so we would never
consider recirculation.


Correct. New regulation actually demand that the user press a
button before using the faucet, so that the heat recirculation
pump had time to get the water warm right before the user needs
it


Who comes up with such weird laws? Now every house needs a button
wired to each sink and shower? Which, of course, needs to be very
well safety-isolated. That drives up the cost of homes.

Did you leave your common sense at home today? Low voltage wiring
like this needs NO protection.


And how is that low voltage made? Think!

Through a low voltage transformer that provides protection.


No. That is not enough for bathroom use.
Assuming SELV, it\'s absolutely enough.

..Zone 1 (high splash risk like in a shower enclosure above the tray, above a bath tub)
..
..Requires electrical products to be IPX4 or better, or SELV with the
..transformer located beyond zone 2.

--
Jasen.
 
J

Joerg

Guest
On 2020-08-05 15:19, Klaus Kragelund wrote:
On Thursday, August 6, 2020 at 12:04:38 AM UTC+2, Joerg wrote:
On 2020-08-05 13:37, upsidedown@downunder.com wrote:
On Wed, 05 Aug 2020 12:13:33 -0700, Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com
wrote:

On 2020-08-05 11:53, Ricketty C wrote:
On Wednesday, August 5, 2020 at 1:53:32 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
On 2020-08-05 10:29, Ricketty C wrote:
On Wednesday, August 5, 2020 at 1:09:26 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
On 2020-08-05 03:11, Klaus Kragelund wrote:
On Wednesday, August 5, 2020 at 12:17:27 AM UTC+2, Joerg wrote:
On 2020-08-04 00:38, Klaus Kragelund wrote:
Hi

Triggered by the HVAC wiring thread, just out of curiosity:

Some of you probably have a circulation pump in the house,
or several depending on the system.

Do you care about the efficiency of that one, say instead of
using 30W, you could buy a more expensive one that consumes
25W for the same pump performance? (that would correlate to
a electricity savings of maybe 4 USD per year for a 50% duty
ratio)

Would you spend +10 USD more on that pump, for a payback
period of less than 4 years?


Yes, but ... in the US circulation pumps are not popular or
sometimes turned off. This has a simple reason and mostly in
left-leaning states where electricity and gas are expensive.
Having to run out some cold water before it gets warm does
waste water but that is often more than an order of magnitude
cheaper that the energy used by a recirculating system. Not so
much the electricity for the pump but the loss of thermal
energy in the water going round and round. In our case it\'s
propane which is prohibitively expensive so we would never
consider recirculation.


Correct. New regulation actually demand that the user press a
button before using the faucet, so that the heat recirculation
pump had time to get the water warm right before the user needs
it


Who comes up with such weird laws? Now every house needs a button
wired to each sink and shower? Which, of course, needs to be very
well safety-isolated. That drives up the cost of homes.

Did you leave your common sense at home today? Low voltage wiring
like this needs NO protection.


And how is that low voltage made? Think!

Through a low voltage transformer that provides protection.


No. That is not enough for bathroom use.


What are YOU thinking of??? Why do I have to do your thinking for you?


Then start thinking for once :)

What is wrong with a SELV
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extra-low_voltage#Separated_or_safety_extra-low_voltage_(SELV)
circuit ?


In the end it\'s expensive, you can\'t just use a doorbell transformer and
call it a day. The stuff must be certified. Then you have all kinds of
electrical codes, different between countries. For example, in many
jurisdictions you must maintain a significant separation between LV
control wires and mains cables going into the same bathroom. Can become
a real headache for installers. And on and on.

I have designed a lot of stuff for markets with similar rules and the
regulatory work alone is no small feat.

In Europe, another factor is that homes are generally brick or concrete
walled. You can\'t just fish another cables through the studs behind
drywall or Hardiebacker, you\'ll be slotting and busting through walls
using hydraulic hammer tools. BTDT. That adds a major cost.

Wireless may be the better option here, especially considering retrofits
and full bathroom remodels.

Wireless is better

But, there are installations where the pump is below the sink, so no long routing of cable
Below the sink is very easy, provided there is a power outlet. In the
neighborhood where our German house was that was only the case for the
full baths and those outlets (for razors and hair dryers) were very
high, about 1 meter above the sinks. Often they were integrated into the
above-sink mirror cabinet. Alibert and similar brands, that hold tooth
paste, medicines and stuff. Not sure how you\'d safely place a power
supply there.

https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61CwfnsosIL._AC_SL1500_.jpg

The guest bath only had a light above the sink so that has no power
during the day. The other aspect to consider is noise. The pump has to
be very quiet because often the lady of the house would complain if
there is a buzz while \"doing business\" :)

Another question is, what to do about the shower or the bathtub?

In our house in Germany the recirculating pump was central, near the
boiler in the basement. However, eventually we just turned it off and
when a water line broke and had to be replaced the plumber didn\'t want
to hook up the return line. He said it\'s not done much anymore. That was
in the 90\'s.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
 
J

Joerg

Guest
On 2020-08-05 15:07, Jasen Betts wrote:
On 2020-08-05, Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> wrote:
On 2020-08-05 11:53, Ricketty C wrote:
On Wednesday, August 5, 2020 at 1:53:32 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
On 2020-08-05 10:29, Ricketty C wrote:
On Wednesday, August 5, 2020 at 1:09:26 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
On 2020-08-05 03:11, Klaus Kragelund wrote:
On Wednesday, August 5, 2020 at 12:17:27 AM UTC+2, Joerg wrote:
On 2020-08-04 00:38, Klaus Kragelund wrote:
Hi

Triggered by the HVAC wiring thread, just out of curiosity:

Some of you probably have a circulation pump in the house,
or several depending on the system.

Do you care about the efficiency of that one, say instead of
using 30W, you could buy a more expensive one that consumes
25W for the same pump performance? (that would correlate to
a electricity savings of maybe 4 USD per year for a 50% duty
ratio)

Would you spend +10 USD more on that pump, for a payback
period of less than 4 years?


Yes, but ... in the US circulation pumps are not popular or
sometimes turned off. This has a simple reason and mostly in
left-leaning states where electricity and gas are expensive.
Having to run out some cold water before it gets warm does
waste water but that is often more than an order of magnitude
cheaper that the energy used by a recirculating system. Not so
much the electricity for the pump but the loss of thermal
energy in the water going round and round. In our case it\'s
propane which is prohibitively expensive so we would never
consider recirculation.


Correct. New regulation actually demand that the user press a
button before using the faucet, so that the heat recirculation
pump had time to get the water warm right before the user needs
it


Who comes up with such weird laws? Now every house needs a button
wired to each sink and shower? Which, of course, needs to be very
well safety-isolated. That drives up the cost of homes.

Did you leave your common sense at home today? Low voltage wiring
like this needs NO protection.


And how is that low voltage made? Think!

Through a low voltage transformer that provides protection.


No. That is not enough for bathroom use.

Assuming SELV, it\'s absolutely enough.

.Zone 1 (high splash risk like in a shower enclosure above the tray, above a bath tub)
.
.Requires electrical products to be IPX4 or better, or SELV with the
.transformer located beyond zone 2.
In most jurisdictions you are not allowed to run the cables close to
mains wiring and that\'s not a trivial matter in a cramped bathroom.
Klaus is likely thinking more about Europe first and those rooms aren\'t
big over there.

Then, Klaus was thinking about a pump under the sink. That requires a
permanently plugged in larger power supply. Not really easy in bathrooms
and outlets in the popular mirror cabinets are not meant for permanent
connections. That\'s all we had in our house in Germany and that was
quite normal in the neighborhood.

This is definitely not a slam-dunk situation.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
 
T

Tabby

Guest
On Wednesday, 5 August 2020 12:48:10 UTC+1, Don Y wrote:

Now, if the pump could PREDICT it\'s imminent failure and
alert me to that fact, it adds real value in that it lets
me avoid living without heat while looking for a replacement
pump!
Wouldn\'t be hard to do when the failure is the main bearing, or blockage from muck. Speed irregularity & reduced resistance respectively.


NT
 
T

Tabby

Guest
On Wednesday, 5 August 2020 18:29:10 UTC+1, Ricketty C wrote:
On Wednesday, August 5, 2020 at 1:09:26 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:

If it absolutely has to be done I\'d automate that. Asking a resident to
remember to press such a button does not make sense to me. People will
forget. How about this: A sensor detects that a person is near a warm
water tap or on the toilet. If the person doesn\'t quickly move around or
away this starts the recirculating pump. When the person surprisingly
walks away again or if the person turns on the warm water (flow,
pressure drop) the pump turns off again.

Yeah, that\'s a very simple trouble free approach... really??? What\'s wrong with instant on? In the households in the EU the house current provides for more power availability in a standard circuit, over 2 kW vs about 1.4 kW here. That\'s plenty for instant on.
240v 32A is 7.7kW.


NT
 
B

bitrex

Guest
On 8/5/2020 10:08 AM, Ricketty C wrote:
On Wednesday, August 5, 2020 at 7:32:02 AM UTC-4, Phil Hobbs wrote:

Yer nuts, but I knew that.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

Don\'t ever complain about anyone else being rude.
The Dr. Hobbs understands all the losses involved as well as anyone I
expect, no actual point to make.
 
D

Don Y

Guest
On 8/5/2020 5:57 PM, Tabby wrote:
On Wednesday, 5 August 2020 12:48:10 UTC+1, Don Y wrote:

Now, if the pump could PREDICT it\'s imminent failure and alert me to that
fact, it adds real value in that it lets me avoid living without heat
while looking for a replacement pump!

Wouldn\'t be hard to do when the failure is the main bearing, or blockage
from muck. Speed irregularity & reduced resistance respectively.
I don\'t know if sensor(s) that could deduce this would inherently
be part of the design (?) -- possibly speed but how would it
\"inexpensively\" sense drag/resistance?

[I try to deduce stuff from sensors that are already in place for
some other purpose]

I mounted an accelerometer on the side of our furnace (which is
a superfluous sensor as it isn\'t needed to control the furnace\'s
operation) and it was able to alert me to a failing blower motor.

But, that\'s a hefty motor spinning a sizeable load -- very easy
to get a \"wobble\" going as the motor fails.

(Had the accelerometer not alerted us, the wobble would have eventually
become audible as the furnace would shake/tremble)
 
R

Ricketty C

Guest
On Wednesday, August 5, 2020 at 3:13:31 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
On 2020-08-05 11:53, Ricketty C wrote:
On Wednesday, August 5, 2020 at 1:53:32 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
On 2020-08-05 10:29, Ricketty C wrote:
On Wednesday, August 5, 2020 at 1:09:26 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
On 2020-08-05 03:11, Klaus Kragelund wrote:
On Wednesday, August 5, 2020 at 12:17:27 AM UTC+2, Joerg wrote:
On 2020-08-04 00:38, Klaus Kragelund wrote:
Hi

Triggered by the HVAC wiring thread, just out of curiosity:

Some of you probably have a circulation pump in the house,
or several depending on the system.

Do you care about the efficiency of that one, say instead of
using 30W, you could buy a more expensive one that consumes
25W for the same pump performance? (that would correlate to
a electricity savings of maybe 4 USD per year for a 50% duty
ratio)

Would you spend +10 USD more on that pump, for a payback
period of less than 4 years?


Yes, but ... in the US circulation pumps are not popular or
sometimes turned off. This has a simple reason and mostly in
left-leaning states where electricity and gas are expensive.
Having to run out some cold water before it gets warm does
waste water but that is often more than an order of magnitude
cheaper that the energy used by a recirculating system. Not so
much the electricity for the pump but the loss of thermal
energy in the water going round and round. In our case it\'s
propane which is prohibitively expensive so we would never
consider recirculation.


Correct. New regulation actually demand that the user press a
button before using the faucet, so that the heat recirculation
pump had time to get the water warm right before the user needs
it


Who comes up with such weird laws? Now every house needs a button
wired to each sink and shower? Which, of course, needs to be very
well safety-isolated. That drives up the cost of homes.

Did you leave your common sense at home today? Low voltage wiring
like this needs NO protection.


And how is that low voltage made? Think!

Through a low voltage transformer that provides protection.


No. That is not enough for bathroom use.


What are YOU thinking of??? Why do I have to do your thinking for you?


Then start thinking for once :)
You aren\'t making sense. The low voltage CONTROLS the high voltage. It presents no safety problems. What image do you have in your mind about this?

Do you think your thermostat has high voltage in it? Does it need to be treated like a high voltage wiring fixture because it controls a high voltage and high power circuit?

Why can\'t you communicate what you are talking about?

You are so difficult to communicate with because you don\'t explain your thinking. You just toss insults. But then I guess that\'s just you. So do I have to do your thinking and your communicating also?

--

Rick C.

++- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
++- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
 
B

bitrex

Guest
On 8/5/2020 10:59 AM, Phil Hobbs wrote:
On 2020-08-05 10:08, Ricketty C wrote:
On Wednesday, August 5, 2020 at 7:32:02 AM UTC-4, Phil Hobbs wrote:

Yer nuts, but I knew that.


Don\'t ever complain about anyone else being rude.


You\'re Dutch, right?  ;)

Cheers

Phil Hobbs
Scoffing at doctors is fashionable in America these days I thought you
would be happy.
 
R

Ricketty C

Guest
On Wednesday, August 5, 2020 at 6:04:38 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
On 2020-08-05 13:37, upsidedown@downunder.com wrote:

What is wrong with a SELV
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extra-low_voltage#Separated_or_safety_extra-low_voltage_(SELV)
circuit ?


In the end it\'s expensive, you can\'t just use a doorbell transformer and
call it a day.
So they can\'t use a doorbell transformer to work a doorbell? What are doorbell transformers used for?


The stuff must be certified. Then you have all kinds of
electrical codes, different between countries. For example, in many
jurisdictions you must maintain a significant separation between LV
control wires and mains cables going into the same bathroom. Can become
a real headache for installers. And on and on.
Yeah, so? They have Ethernet and other low voltage wiring all through the house now. Where\'s the problem?


I have designed a lot of stuff for markets with similar rules and the
regulatory work alone is no small feat.
So? Your head hurts from the thinking about it?


In Europe, another factor is that homes are generally brick or concrete
walled. You can\'t just fish another cables through the studs behind
drywall or Hardiebacker, you\'ll be slotting and busting through walls
using hydraulic hammer tools. BTDT. That adds a major cost.
I used to install burglar alarms similarly. So?


Wireless may be the better option here, especially considering retrofits
and full bathroom remodels.
Yawn! What is going on with you? Do you just like to argue for arguments sake?

--

Rick C.

+++ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
+++ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
 
T

Tony Stewart

Guest
On Wed. 05 Aug.-20 11:08 a.m., Don Y wrote:
On 8/5/2020 7:07 AM, Ricketty C wrote:
On Wednesday, August 5, 2020 at 5:58:16 AM UTC-4, Klaus Kragelund wrote:

There is a big market in the US still, so there must be a lot of
installtions throughout the country:

https://www.marketresearchfuture.com/reports/hot-water-circulator-pump-market-4903




Cheers

Klaus

Lumping residential, commercial and industrial uses into a single number.
I\'ve never seen a house with this sort of hot water recirculation in
my life
and I\'ve seen a lot of houses.

https://www.thisoldhouse.com/plumbing/21017274/how-to-get-hot-water-with-a-recirculating-pump
To have a payback period for the investment in this system, the cost of
insulating all the pipes which are dissipating heat loss when the hot
water is not being used must be considered and the insulation of the
pipes must be included. Otherwise it the loss of water vs the loss of
unused heat energy. Perhaps best considered for new construction.
I know someone in Belgium who recycles rain water and grey water for
some low quality needs with holding tanks.
 
R

Ricketty C

Guest
On Wednesday, August 5, 2020 at 9:08:08 PM UTC-4, Tabby wrote:
On Wednesday, 5 August 2020 18:29:10 UTC+1, Ricketty C wrote:
On Wednesday, August 5, 2020 at 1:09:26 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:

If it absolutely has to be done I\'d automate that. Asking a resident to
remember to press such a button does not make sense to me. People will
forget. How about this: A sensor detects that a person is near a warm
water tap or on the toilet. If the person doesn\'t quickly move around or
away this starts the recirculating pump. When the person surprisingly
walks away again or if the person turns on the warm water (flow,
pressure drop) the pump turns off again.

Yeah, that\'s a very simple trouble free approach... really??? What\'s wrong with instant on? In the households in the EU the house current provides for more power availability in a standard circuit, over 2 kW vs about 1.4 kW here. That\'s plenty for instant on.

240v 32A is 7.7kW.
I was thinking more of the 9 amp circuits that I believe are common in the UK. We tend to have 15 amp 120 volts in the US, sometimes 20 amps in certain uses. 20 amps at 120 volts is practically the same as 9 amps, 240 volts and is a fair amount of water heating. It may not be enough for a shower though. I did some not so quick calculations that show 9 amp, 240 volts will raise about a third of a gallon by 25 °F each minute. The average shower uses around 2 gal a minute, so more power is needed, around 6 times as much or more like 60 amps at 240 volts!

But then who cares if they need to wait 30 seconds to get hot water for the shower? When having forgotten to turn the hot water heater back on the other day, I found the water in the tank is sufficiently hot to take a shower in just a few minutes, less than 10. I\'m curious as to just how much the water heater is actually on when no water is drawn.

My utility provides hour by hour usage data and I see intermittent spikes in my usage that are likely the water heater. There is some granularity in the kWhr reading but it looks like 0.4 kWHr each 5 hours for around 80 watts consumption not counting hot water drawn.

I\'m glad I did this calculation. Installing a timer on the hot water heater will save me around $40 a year on my TOU bill. Marginally worth it since it\'s not something I can just buy and install without either spending a bunch of money (240 volt stuff tends to be commercial $$$) or having to rig up a relay to control the 240 from a 120 volt device. Not going to worry with that just now.

--

Rick C.

---- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
---- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
 
D

Don Y

Guest
On 8/5/2020 8:44 PM, Tony Stewart wrote:
On Wed. 05 Aug.-20 11:08 a.m., Don Y wrote:
On 8/5/2020 7:07 AM, Ricketty C wrote:
On Wednesday, August 5, 2020 at 5:58:16 AM UTC-4, Klaus Kragelund wrote:

There is a big market in the US still, so there must be a lot of
installtions throughout the country:

https://www.marketresearchfuture.com/reports/hot-water-circulator-pump-market-4903




Cheers

Klaus

Lumping residential, commercial and industrial uses into a single number.
I\'ve never seen a house with this sort of hot water recirculation in my life
and I\'ve seen a lot of houses.

https://www.thisoldhouse.com/plumbing/21017274/how-to-get-hot-water-with-a-recirculating-pump

To have a payback period for the investment in this system, the cost of
insulating all the pipes which are dissipating heat loss when the hot water is
not being used must be considered and the insulation of the pipes must be
included. Otherwise it the loss of water vs the loss of unused heat energy.
Perhaps best considered for new construction.
I know someone in Belgium who recycles rain water and grey water for some low
quality needs with holding tanks.
Of course! The TV show cited addressed the homeowner\'s problem (existing
house, consider what it would take to open the walls to insulate the pipes!)
of not getting hot water on an upper-floor bathroom.

Rainwater harvesting is rather common, here (US Southwest). It\'s not
uncommon to see a 1,000G tank in someone\'s side/back yard.

(We\'re planning on burying a 2500G tank -- purchase is subsidized -- once we
figure out how to get a backhoe into the back yard! We have 6 citrus trees
so use a sh*tload of water for irrigation)
 
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