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Energy savings, do you care?...

  • Thread starter Klaus Kragelund
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P

Phil Hobbs

Guest
On 2020-08-05 05:58, Klaus Kragelund wrote:
On Wednesday, August 5, 2020 at 2:01:49 AM UTC+2, Don Y wrote:
On 8/4/2020 4:16 PM, Ricketty C wrote:
On Tuesday, August 4, 2020 at 7:10:49 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
On 8/4/2020 3:50 PM, Ricketty C wrote:
On Tuesday, August 4, 2020 at 5:46:50 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
On 8/4/2020 2:14 PM, Ricketty C wrote:
On Tuesday, August 4, 2020 at 3:34:41 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
On 8/4/2020 12:31 PM, Ricketty C wrote:
On Tuesday, August 4, 2020 at 7:45:46 AM UTC-4, Klaus Kragelund
wrote:

That said, the pump should not fail anyhow, so it\'s kind of
an academic discussion

What you are calling the \"pump\", is that what we would call a
\"fan\"? I guess I\'m more used to the term \"fan\" or \"compressor\"
for gases and \"pump\" for liquid.

No. Think of oil-fired hot water heat. The circulating pump(s)
move the heated water from the boiler\'s water jacket throughout
their respective zones. Otherwise, the boiler gets hot and the
heat has no place to go!

Not so many use hot water in the US. Mostly newer houses use forced
air. By newer I mean in the last 60 years.

That doesn\'t mean all of the houses that DID use hot water (radiant
flooring, baseboard, etc.) suddenly \"went away\".

No, but they do tend to go away slowly or get converted to something
other than recirculating water.

Most of the people that I grew up with (New England) still rely on
oil-fired water (baseboard) heat. \"Central air\" is not common -- window
units when needed. And, boilers tend to last a long time.

Adding ductwork to an existing home is a significant labor cost (as well
as being largely disruptive during installation) in order to support GFA,
etc.

OTOH, here (Southwest), folks replace central air conditioners every
decade to decade-and-a-half. This typically results in the entire plant
being replaced (as contractors downplay the added cost of a *new* furnace
when you\'re looking at a new compressor plus A-coil plus labor) pretty
regularly.

[And, if you are reliant on HVAC \"professionals\" for maintenance, you are
subtly prodded to think about replacement earlier than might otherwise be
necessary: \"You don\'t want to *risk* having your AC fail during the
cooling season, do you??\"]

Every other solution was cheaper than replacing the 80 year old boiler
including the pipes in the basement cement. There is a reason why no one
installs hot water or steam heat anymore.

Replacing HVAC systems in the Southwest is a common occurrence. You figure
on dropping $8-10K on a new one every 10-15-20 years. The new kit slides
into the space occupied by the old and makes the same connections as the old.

Replacing HVAC systems in New England is still done with the original
legacy installation in mind (else the folks I know back there would
all have updated to GFA by now). Note that Home Depot lists several
\"oil-fired boilers\" available today for ~$2-3K. No need to pull out
the baseboard radiators, dispose of the old oil tank, pay the gas company
for a hookup (excavating your yard and the roadway) and route ductwork
throughout your attic/basement (plus chop holes in walls for ducts).

Steam only makes sense in multidwelling units (older apartment houses)
where a single boiler can be shared among multiple units. In such places,
retrofitting hot water or GFA is even MORE costly. \"Electric\" would
be the more likely route.

Not sure what your point is.

You appeared ignorant of the issue Klaus was raising:

\"What you are calling the \'pump\', is that what we would call a \'fan\'?
I guess I\'m more used to the term \'fan\' or \'compressor\' for gases and
\'pump\' for liquid. \"

Clearly others (e.g, PHobbs) have experience with circulating *pumps*
in 2020. So Klaus\'s comment regarding energy tradeoffs in replacing
a pump (likely in 2020!) are pertinent.


There is a big market in the US still, so there must be a lot of installtions throughout the country:

https://www.marketresearchfuture.com/reports/hot-water-circulator-pump-market-4903

Cheers

Klaus
I wouldn\'t be in a big hurry to buy a place with hot-air heat unless it
also had central air. My sinuses are much happier with hot water heat.

Our offices have central air and hot water heat, and were built in the \'80s.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

http://electrooptical.net
http://hobbs-eo.com
 
T

Tabby

Guest
On Wednesday, 5 August 2020 06:07:45 UTC+1, Pimpom wrote:
On 8/5/2020 3:40 AM, Tabby wrote:
On Tuesday, 4 August 2020 12:43:32 UTC+1, Pimpom wrote:

When my nephew wanted to buy a new car a few years ago, he was
considering going for a diesel version of the same basic model to
save on fuel costs. He changed his mind after I calculated that
it would take about 10 years to cover the 25% difference in
initial cost. That was then. Now diesel prices are almost the
same as that of petrol.

but they do better mpg & you can put various other junk in the fuel tank (in most diesels) eg filtered used oils.

It\'s true about fuel efficiency, but I can\'t visualise anyone
running their car with junk fuel except in an emergency.
Many do. Most people cba though, would rather pay pump prices. There\'s a good bit written about using waste veg oil & used engine oil online.

It\'s also possible to thermally decompose plastic waste into various fuel grades, most of which are usable in diesel engines as long as they include oil.


Besides,
diesel cars don\'t age well - at least here in India - and
maintenance cost is high.
Didn\'t know that. Every old diesel engine I\'ve had or used has been very reliable.


NT
 
P

Phil Hobbs

Guest
On 2020-08-04 14:47, bitrex wrote:
On 8/4/2020 11:09 AM, Phil Hobbs wrote:
On 2020-08-04 10:52, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Tue, 4 Aug 2020 10:28:14 -0400, Phil Hobbs
pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

On 2020-08-04 10:20, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Tue, 4 Aug 2020 17:13:22 +0530, Pimpom <nobody@nowhere.com
wrote:

On 8/4/2020 1:08 PM, Klaus Kragelund wrote:
Hi

Triggered by the HVAC wiring thread, just out of curiosity:

Some of you probably have a circulation pump in the house, or
several depending on the system.

Do you care about the efficiency of that one, say instead of
using 30W, you could buy a more expensive one that consumes
25W for the same pump performance? (that would correlate to a
electricity savings of maybe 4 USD per year for a 50% duty
ratio)

Would you spend +10 USD more on that pump, for a payback
period of less than 4 years?


Personally, I wouldn\'t bother for such a small long-term
saving. Besides, there\'s no way of telling how long either pump
will last and anything could happen during those 4 years.

When my nephew wanted to buy a new car a few years ago, he was
considering going for a diesel version of the same basic model
to save on fuel costs. He changed his mind after I calculated
that it would take about 10 years to cover the 25% difference
in initial cost. That was then. Now diesel prices are almost
the same as that of petrol.

Diesel is more than premium gas here.



Neither you nor P. need to worry about it much, but diesels are
also much harder to start in cold weather.


We do go up into the mountains in winter.

Oh, yeah, I forgot about that peculiar habit of yours. ;)

Electric cars have problems in the cold too, which is why I don\'t see
Teslas parked at ski areas. A gas car is remarkably good about this
sort of thing.

Yup, especially ones with smart fuel injection.  (That is, everything
since about 1989.)  IIRC SU carburetors are pretty good in cold weather
too--they work at constant vacuum rather than a fixed orifice.

Run my Chevy Volt on battery power when it gets down to -10F sometimes
in New England, it\'s always come right up with no problem. What
\"problems\" he\'s speaking of I have no idea.

There is the normal issue of efficiency loss and range reduction that
occurs in the cold with any car; in pure gas cars you generally don\'t
notice this because you\'re throwing away so much energy to begin with.
it\'s what the giant radiator structures and constantly-running
high-temperature liquid cooling loop is for, a thermodynamic machine
designed to eject 70-90% of the money you spend on fuel out to heat the
Universe.
Yer nuts, but I knew that.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs


--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

http://electrooptical.net
http://hobbs-eo.com
 
D

Don Y

Guest
On 8/5/2020 2:48 AM, Klaus Kragelund wrote:
On Wednesday, August 5, 2020 at 1:02:31 AM UTC+2, Don Y wrote:
On 8/4/2020 3:17 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2020-08-04 00:38, Klaus Kragelund wrote:
Also, would a IOT connected pump be a sales parameter? (say it breaks
down, you can get a email notification, so you avoid a cold house or
other nuisance)

Nope, not really. IoT is popular in industry where it makes a lot of
sense. I designed some stuff in that area. For homes people are largely
disappointed. Costs a lot, doesn\'t do that much, and then one sunny day
the cloud goes permanently blank ... poof ... game is over.

Exactly. At ~$200/device, how much is the average homeowner going to drop
into technology?

Current WiFi modules comes in a less than 2 USD, so it would not add much
cost to the bill of material
Cost has nothing to do with price (except cost should be << price).
An iPhone certainly costs nothing near what they sell for (price)!

IoT vendors seem to think their products should command a higher
premium than \"legacy\" devices. My point is that such a claim
should be backed by greatly improved performance or some other
feature that is unavailable in the other products.

If it\'s just \"novelty appeal\", the pricing structure will collapse,
sooner or later.

And, when devices can\'t really talk to each other (in any meaningful way),
what advantage does a device offer -- beyond \"remote access\"?

It could offer to control the pump with an app from a smart phone. Easier
setup
How difficult is it to do this using \"non-smart\" pumps?
Do you REALLY need to be able to turn the pump on/off without
visiting the switch that controlled the old pump?

(recirculating pumps, here, are controlled by the thermostat.
calling for heat turns on the pump. when the temperature of the
water jacket in the boiler falls, the boiler fires to restore
the normal operating temperature -- this because the water jacket also
supplies domestic hot water -- via a heat exchanger)

[\"Oooo... I can see who is at my front door while I am 1,000 miles away!
*If* I am willing to be bothered by yet-another-alert delivered to my
phone!\"]

Some people, mostly engineers, like stuff like that
But it\'s just a toy. Yeah, you can see if there\'s someone lurking
at your front door, about to steal a package. But, if they intend to
steal a package, they probably have obscured their features (e.g.,
ski mask) -- unless stupid!

I\'m often asked to fetch DELIVERED packages from a neighbor\'s home
while they were away. *if* they are monitoring for \"someone approaching
the door\", then they can phone me to tell me \"the package has arrived\"
(i.e., get off your ass and capture it).

Or, they can monitor ME approaching the door to retrieve the
package and use the speaker in the doorbell to \"thank\" me.

Neither are really important features. The fact that there have been
many times when this notification/acknowledgement did NOT take place
is proof.

Finally, they don\'t give the user any real value that couldn\'t be made
available WITHOUT that \"feature\".

Maybe easier setup, depends on the system of course. If it does not need
anything but just a speed setting, an app makes no sense, unless it is for
saving some money since you can remove the standard user interface
Yes. But the presence of the communication interface also *adds*
configuration overhead.

[I rescued a Nest thermostat and let it run for a month -- but without
network access. It did a worse job regulating the house\'s temperature
than a \"dumb\" smart thermostat (i.e., forget the \"learning\" ability...
just acting as a bang-bang controller)!

But, it makes an ideal UX -- just don\'t let it DO anything!]
UX?
User eXperience. Twisting the outer ring on the nest FEELS like the
correct way to adjust the value being displayed (temperature).
Much more so than +/- buttons or a keypad.

I rooted the one that I rescued and have converted it into a
fancy \"round graphic display with twist ring interface\". It
talks to <whatever> in that role.

Now, if the pump could PREDICT it\'s imminent failure and
alert me to that fact, it adds real value in that it lets
me avoid living without heat while looking for a replacement
pump!
 
D

Don Y

Guest
On 8/5/2020 3:11 AM, Klaus Kragelund wrote:
On Wednesday, August 5, 2020 at 12:17:27 AM UTC+2, Joerg wrote:
Nope, not really. IoT is popular in industry where it makes a lot of
sense. I designed some stuff in that area. For homes people are largely
disappointed. Costs a lot, doesn\'t do that much, and then one sunny day
the cloud goes permanently blank ... poof ... game is over. This is how
I got a brand new little NAS for $7.50. Their cloud vanished. Of course,
I had to hack it which was part of the fun.

--

Cloud solutions should be with the big vendors, so little risk of a dead device.
But why the need for The Cloud, at all?

Can\'t your device PHONE you and SPEAK the message?

Or, SMS an alert?

Or, email using your ISP (without adding yet another \"service\")?

Or some ordered combination of the above?
 
S

Sjouke Burry

Guest
On 05.08.20 13:50, Don Y wrote:
On 8/5/2020 3:11 AM, Klaus Kragelund wrote:
On Wednesday, August 5, 2020 at 12:17:27 AM UTC+2, Joerg wrote:
Nope, not really. IoT is popular in industry where it makes a lot of
sense. I designed some stuff in that area. For homes people are largely
disappointed. Costs a lot, doesn\'t do that much, and then one sunny day
the cloud goes permanently blank ... poof ... game is over. This is how
I got a brand new little NAS for $7.50. Their cloud vanished. Of course,
I had to hack it which was part of the fun.

--

Cloud solutions should be with the big vendors, so little risk of a dead device.

But why the need for The Cloud, at all?

Can\'t your device PHONE you and SPEAK the message?

Or, SMS an alert?

Or, email using your ISP (without adding yet another \"service\")?

Or some ordered combination of the above?
Jabbut.. the salesperson cannot bleed you for more profit.
You MUST open a Paid For Account.
We must money keep floating the right way you know.
With a new device for each upgrade of Android of course.
 
J

Jasen Betts

Guest
On 2020-08-05, Klaus Kragelund <klauskvik@hotmail.com> wrote:

Nope, not really. IoT is popular in industry where it makes a lot of
sense. I designed some stuff in that area. For homes people are largely
disappointed. Costs a lot, doesn\'t do that much, and then one sunny day
the cloud goes permanently blank ... poof ... game is over. This is how
I got a brand new little NAS for $7.50. Their cloud vanished. Of course,
I had to hack it which was part of the fun.

--

Cloud solutions should be with the big vendors, so little risk of a
dead device. Glad you got a cheap NAS :)
The risk of the cloud service disappearing increases dramatically once the
warranty expires.


--
Jasen.
 
D

Don Y

Guest
On 8/5/2020 5:07 AM, Sjouke Burry wrote:
On 05.08.20 13:50, Don Y wrote:
On 8/5/2020 3:11 AM, Klaus Kragelund wrote:

Cloud solutions should be with the big vendors, so little risk of a dead
device.

But why the need for The Cloud, at all?

Can\'t your device PHONE you and SPEAK the message?

Or, SMS an alert?

Or, email using your ISP (without adding yet another \"service\")?

Or some ordered combination of the above?

Jabbut.. the salesperson cannot bleed you for more profit.
You MUST open a Paid For Account.
We must money keep floating the right way you know.
With a new device for each upgrade of Android of course.
Yes, everything should be RENTED -- with the \"initial purchase\"
being just a sort of \"application fee\". :-/

What happens to your \"investment\" when the vendor decides to
stop supporting it (with their \"service\")? Does it magically
lose it\'s previous functionality -- just because it can\'t
phone home?

Offer value. The world doesn\'t need to turn into a bunch
of \"toilet paper salesmen\"! (dispenser is free but ONLY works
with one particular toilet paper manufacturer\'s product)

\"For only $99/yr you can upgrade the GPS maps in your new car!\"

\"Yeah, but the GPS implementation SUCKS. What do I care if
the maps reflect the latest road additions in my area??\"
 
J

Joe Gwinn

Guest
On Tue, 4 Aug 2020 05:00:07 -0700 (PDT), pcdhobbs@gmail.com wrote:

(that would correlate to a electricity savings of maybe 4 USD per year for a 50% duty ratio)

If your furnace is on 50% of the time, the first order of business it to move to a better climate. ;)
Well, I\'d start with fixing all the drafts and other air leaks.

Never mind all the noise about R-numbers of insulation and windows
until the air leaks are plugged. The classic method is a fan in a
doorway slightly pressurizing the house, then wander around with an
incense stick and follow the smoke.

My house (in the Boston area, built in 1929) is uninsulated, but is
stuccoed, so the only air leaks were largely the old windows. When
those were replaced, the boiler runs little, and hardly notices the
wind.

The noise about R-numbers is basically marketing mis-direction. The
problem with plugging air leaks is that it doesn\'t cost enough.

Joe Gwinn
 
R

Ricketty C

Guest
On Wednesday, August 5, 2020 at 5:58:16 AM UTC-4, Klaus Kragelund wrote:
There is a big market in the US still, so there must be a lot of installtions throughout the country:

https://www.marketresearchfuture.com/reports/hot-water-circulator-pump-market-4903

Cheers

Klaus
Lumping residential, commercial and industrial uses into a single number. I\'ve never seen a house with this sort of hot water recirculation in my life and I\'ve seen a lot of houses.

This appears to be extraordinarily wasteful. Either the water is heated all the time, causing excess heating costs as well as excess cooling costs in the warmer months, or the recirculation is not turned on until demand losing immediate availability with the only advantage being water savings.

I can\'t see this ever becoming widespread, at least not here in the US. My preference is to use a floor plan with water uses located centrally so hot water doesn\'t need to travel very far. Many houses I\'ve lived in had this already since it is common to reduce the run of copper pipe.

--

Rick C.

--- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
--- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
 
R

Ricketty C

Guest
On Wednesday, August 5, 2020 at 7:32:02 AM UTC-4, Phil Hobbs wrote:
Yer nuts, but I knew that.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs
Don\'t ever complain about anyone else being rude.

--

Rick C.

--+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
--+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
 
R

Ricketty C

Guest
On Wednesday, August 5, 2020 at 10:04:59 AM UTC-4, Joe Gwinn wrote:
On Tue, 4 Aug 2020 05:00:07 -0700 (PDT), pcdhobbs@gmail.com wrote:

(that would correlate to a electricity savings of maybe 4 USD per year for a 50% duty ratio)

If your furnace is on 50% of the time, the first order of business it to move to a better climate. ;)

Well, I\'d start with fixing all the drafts and other air leaks.

Never mind all the noise about R-numbers of insulation and windows
until the air leaks are plugged. The classic method is a fan in a
doorway slightly pressurizing the house, then wander around with an
incense stick and follow the smoke.

My house (in the Boston area, built in 1929) is uninsulated, but is
stuccoed, so the only air leaks were largely the old windows. When
those were replaced, the boiler runs little, and hardly notices the
wind.

The noise about R-numbers is basically marketing mis-direction. The
problem with plugging air leaks is that it doesn\'t cost enough.

Joe Gwinn
Your opinion about R-values is not based in fact. I\'ve seen large houses with huge window walls that clearly are difficult to heat. Even my smaller house with a few patio doors leaks heat like a sieve. In the winter I can stand in front of the door and feel the heat radiating out the door. If I turn away the difference is obvious. For a couple of years I used bubble wrap on them, but it\'s a tremendous pita so I stopped using it. It did appear to save money and the room felt warmer. Hard to say about the money for certain, that would take years of averaging or calculations taking weather into account, but I definitely felt differences standing in front of the doors. Drapes would help as well, but who has those anymore, especially when you have a view.

You do realize that air is very, very inexpensive to heat, no?

--

Rick C.

-+- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
-+- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
 
G

George Herold

Guest
On Wednesday, August 5, 2020 at 4:28:26 AM UTC-4, piglet wrote:
On 05/08/2020 9:05 am, piglet wrote:
On 04/08/2020 8:38 am, Klaus Kragelund wrote:
Hi

Triggered by the HVAC wiring thread, just out of curiosity:

Some of you probably have a circulation pump in the house, or several
depending on the system.

Do you care about the efficiency of that one, say instead of using
30W, you could buy a more expensive one that consumes 25W for the same
pump performance? (that would correlate to a electricity savings of
maybe 4 USD per year for a 50% duty ratio)

Would you spend +10 USD more on that pump, for a payback period of
less than 4 years?

Also, would a IOT connected pump be a sales parameter? (say it breaks
down, you can get a email notification, so you avoid a cold house or
other nuisance)

Regards

Klaus


Hi Klaus, I definitely couldn\'t care less about pump energy consumption
but value longevity.

In 2018 my 1982 Grundfos circulation pump failed, not from electrical
failure but from a faulty downstream valve air leak cavitation. The
electrical components consisted of two windings, one film capacitor, one
switch and a terminal block. Lasted 36 years and could probably have
lasted another 36. Any excess heat generated by the pump is welcome as
it helps heat the water! Compared to energy costs in making the water
hot in the boiler the energy cost in the pump is trivial.

Finding a like-for-like new replacement was impossible, all new models
are packed full of damnable electronics and reviews implied even ten
year lifetime was highly unlikely. Having an hf-switching high voltage
motor inverter built from cheapest available parts in the smallest
possible space continually exposed to 55-60degC temps is exceptionally
demanding and I really can\'t see the point when a century+ old reliable
ac motor solution already exists.

Given the purchase prices and high to very high labor costs of fitting
the replacements the total cost of ownership is probably higher from the
supposed energy saving pumps than simpler more long lasting pumps.

If there is a place for IOT then it might belong at the system level,
maybe useful in industrial use but can\'t see the need in domestic settings.

piglet


Forgot to end the replacement story: I searched around and found a NOS
classic design pump at a premium price. Seems there is a thriving market
for the traditional design non-semiconductor driven motor pump.

piglet
Here we (I) use Taco brand water pumps. I had a new furnace installed
~20 yrs ago and the taco pump stopped working about 10 years later.
Turned out (when I read the pump installation instructions) that
the plumber had mounted the pump axis horizontally instead of vertically.
The instructions said horizontal was OK, but vertical was recommended for
long life. I had plumber back, installed new pump \'correctly\'. I then took
apart the old pump, got it working, and it lives as a spare.
(\'cause the pump will always fail on the coldest Saturday night of the
year. :^)

George H.
 
P

Phil Hobbs

Guest
On 2020-08-05 10:08, Ricketty C wrote:
On Wednesday, August 5, 2020 at 7:32:02 AM UTC-4, Phil Hobbs wrote:

Yer nuts, but I knew that.


Don\'t ever complain about anyone else being rude.
You\'re Dutch, right? ;)

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

http://electrooptical.net
http://hobbs-eo.com
 
D

Don Y

Guest
On 8/5/2020 7:07 AM, Ricketty C wrote:
On Wednesday, August 5, 2020 at 5:58:16 AM UTC-4, Klaus Kragelund wrote:

There is a big market in the US still, so there must be a lot of
installtions throughout the country:

https://www.marketresearchfuture.com/reports/hot-water-circulator-pump-market-4903



Cheers

Klaus

Lumping residential, commercial and industrial uses into a single number.
I\'ve never seen a house with this sort of hot water recirculation in my life
and I\'ve seen a lot of houses.
<https://www.thisoldhouse.com/plumbing/21017274/how-to-get-hot-water-with-a-recirculating-pump>
 
D

Don Y

Guest
On 8/5/2020 7:04 AM, Joe Gwinn wrote:
On Tue, 4 Aug 2020 05:00:07 -0700 (PDT), pcdhobbs@gmail.com wrote:

(that would correlate to a electricity savings of maybe 4 USD per year for a 50% duty ratio)

If your furnace is on 50% of the time, the first order of business it to move to a better climate. ;)

Well, I\'d start with fixing all the drafts and other air leaks.

Never mind all the noise about R-numbers of insulation and windows
until the air leaks are plugged. The classic method is a fan in a
doorway slightly pressurizing the house, then wander around with an
incense stick and follow the smoke.
So, you\'ll see a wide plume running out the combustion relief for the
furnace and water heater! (e.g., a square foot hole to the out-of-doors
for each).

[When there are forest fires nearby, we can smell them inside the house,
despite all doors and windows being closed. Likewise if a neighbor is burning
fireplace *or* anyone is having their roof repaired/replaced]

My house (in the Boston area, built in 1929) is uninsulated, but is
stuccoed, so the only air leaks were largely the old windows. When
those were replaced, the boiler runs little, and hardly notices the
wind.

The noise about R-numbers is basically marketing mis-direction. The
problem with plugging air leaks is that it doesn\'t cost enough.
In our case, we have a lot of west-facing glass (basically, most of
the back wall of the house!). We keep the blinds closed during the day
as they help deflect the heat radiating inward.

[slowly replacing the windows but when their each ~30+ sq ft, it\'s not
a trivial (or inexpensive!) task!]

And, with a \"frontier style\" elevation, the \"attic\" is a mere 10-12
inches \"thick\" -- not much opportunity for insulation, there.
 
P

piglet

Guest
On 05/08/2020 11:06 am, Klaus Kragelund wrote:
The type you mention lasting 36 years is a very in-efficient one, so if you had switched to the inverter based ones 20 years ago, you would probably have saved a lot. In the EU, only the high efficiency types is allowed for sale

The inverter ones we produce has +10 years lifetime at elevated temperatures. We see little return from the marked. Small return is blocked motor from the standstill of the pump in the off-season
Thanks Klaus, I am not convinced the savings are very big at all.
Assuming zero inflation and a fixed pump price of $150 and electricity a
pessimistic 20cent per kWh then a rough calc goes like this: The
inefficient pump uses circa 90W and runs about 4 hours per 24 hours
averaged over a year. Over 30 years life that burns 3942kWh or $788.

The efficient ones use 30W so burn 1314 kWhr or $262 of energy but last
ten years so I need to buy two at $150 each during that same period and
spend about $150 each for the professional installation also, so over 30
years cost is $862.

Conclusion: if there is a saving it is likely only small and only if the
pumps really last longer than 10 years or you can get cheap labor to
replace them.

piglet
 
S

server

Guest
On Wed, 5 Aug 2020 10:59:05 -0400, Phil Hobbs
<pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

On 2020-08-05 10:08, Ricketty C wrote:
On Wednesday, August 5, 2020 at 7:32:02 AM UTC-4, Phil Hobbs wrote:

Yer nuts, but I knew that.


Don\'t ever complain about anyone else being rude.


You\'re Dutch, right? ;)

Cheers

Phil Hobbs
The highest ski resort in the Netherlands gets up to almost 700 feet
above sea level! 60 meter vertical runs! Well, that\'s indoors. I\'d
expect a fully-charged Tesla with snow tires might manage to get up
there, but maybe you shouldn\'t run the heater.

We don\'t see many Teslas in Truckee.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/7i8ufcz1mq6fuuo/Tesla_1.jpg?raw=1

Safeway shoppers park their Jeeps in those slots when it\'s crowded.





--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

Science teaches us to doubt.

Claude Bernard
 
R

Ricketty C

Guest
On Wednesday, August 5, 2020 at 12:29:19 PM UTC-4, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Wed, 5 Aug 2020 10:59:05 -0400, Phil Hobbs
pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

On 2020-08-05 10:08, Ricketty C wrote:
On Wednesday, August 5, 2020 at 7:32:02 AM UTC-4, Phil Hobbs wrote:

Yer nuts, but I knew that.


Don\'t ever complain about anyone else being rude.


You\'re Dutch, right? ;)

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

The highest ski resort in the Netherlands gets up to almost 700 feet
above sea level! 60 meter vertical runs! Well, that\'s indoors. I\'d
expect a fully-charged Tesla with snow tires might manage to get up
there, but maybe you shouldn\'t run the heater.

We don\'t see many Teslas in Truckee.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/7i8ufcz1mq6fuuo/Tesla_1.jpg?raw=1

Safeway shoppers park their Jeeps in those slots when it\'s crowded.
The perfect place to go when driving a Tesla, no crowding at the chargers. Wonderful!

Teslas are selling so many cars these days they are having a hard time growing the charging as fast. They\'ve got new faster chargers now. It\'s hard to have enough time while charging to go in and so your shopping. What is better is having 240 volt charging at the rental units. Nearly all the hotels have them now. Still not enough of them though. They are usually full if you try to plug in late. Too many EVs on the roads. I guess some people are a bit slow on the uptake and haven\'t figured out yet that it\'s not a matter of \"if\", only a matter of \"when\".

It\'s a good idea to once in a while pull your head out of the computer and look around. Life is not just about electronics design.

--

Rick C.

-++ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
-++ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
 
J

Joerg

Guest
On 2020-08-05 03:11, Klaus Kragelund wrote:
On Wednesday, August 5, 2020 at 12:17:27 AM UTC+2, Joerg wrote:
On 2020-08-04 00:38, Klaus Kragelund wrote:
Hi

Triggered by the HVAC wiring thread, just out of curiosity:

Some of you probably have a circulation pump in the house, or
several depending on the system.

Do you care about the efficiency of that one, say instead of
using 30W, you could buy a more expensive one that consumes 25W
for the same pump performance? (that would correlate to a
electricity savings of maybe 4 USD per year for a 50% duty
ratio)

Would you spend +10 USD more on that pump, for a payback period
of less than 4 years?


Yes, but ... in the US circulation pumps are not popular or
sometimes turned off. This has a simple reason and mostly in
left-leaning states where electricity and gas are expensive. Having
to run out some cold water before it gets warm does waste water but
that is often more than an order of magnitude cheaper that the
energy used by a recirculating system. Not so much the electricity
for the pump but the loss of thermal energy in the water going
round and round. In our case it\'s propane which is prohibitively
expensive so we would never consider recirculation.


Correct. New regulation actually demand that the user press a button
before using the faucet, so that the heat recirculation pump had time
to get the water warm right before the user needs it
Who comes up with such weird laws? Now every house needs a button wired
to each sink and shower? Which, of course, needs to be very well
safety-isolated. That drives up the cost of homes.

Here in the US we simply don\'t have recirculating pumps except maybe in
upscale mansions where the cost for the energy to heat water doesn\'t
matter much.

If it absolutely has to be done I\'d automate that. Asking a resident to
remember to press such a button does not make sense to me. People will
forget. How about this: A sensor detects that a person is near a warm
water tap or on the toilet. If the person doesn\'t quickly move around or
away this starts the recirculating pump. When the person surprisingly
walks away again or if the person turns on the warm water (flow,
pressure drop) the pump turns off again.


Also, would a IOT connected pump be a sales parameter? (say it
breaks down, you can get a email notification, so you avoid a
cold house or other nuisance)


Nope, not really. IoT is popular in industry where it makes a lot
of sense. I designed some stuff in that area. For homes people are
largely disappointed. Costs a lot, doesn\'t do that much, and then
one sunny day the cloud goes permanently blank ... poof ... game is
over. This is how I got a brand new little NAS for $7.50. Their
cloud vanished. Of course, I had to hack it which was part of the
fun.

--

Cloud solutions should be with the big vendors, so little risk of a
dead device. Glad you got a cheap NAS :)
The problem is different and also happens with big vendor clouds (which
are generally used as a contract service). Goes like this:

A sales droid at Supergizmo Corporation has a smashing idea: Let\'s offer
Gizmo at or below cost, with \"free\" cloud service but when customers
want to use the cloud more extensively they can buy a $4.99/month cloud
upgrade. Then we make money. Hopefully.

Now they rent cloud space at big fat Supercloud Corporation. They must
pay hefty monthly fees for that. Several years down the road the board
of directors isn\'t all that happy about finances at Supergizmo
Corporation, so they hire a new CEO. He discovers that, hey, we do not
make any profit with Gizmo. Way fewer people opted for the $4.99 extra
package than we hoped and now we are subsidizing the rest of the
customers that don\'t buy into the extra subscription. Let\'s stop this!
.... Poof, cloud gone and everyone now has a brick.

I have helped design several cloud-based systems but they were
different. Commercial or high-end residential customers, forced cloud
use for every client, and reasonable monthly fees (low single digit
dollars). I cannot imagine a homeowner going for that just for a pump.
Unless it is part of a larger system with surveillance and all so the
added value is palpable.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
 
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