Driving crystal with cheap FPGA ( MAchXO2) directly ?...

[Brane 2]

I tireid using ust a pin pair and inverting function.

But with LVCMOS333 on Breakout Board ( 3,3V for I/O), MachXO implements hysteresis on input and this seems to hamper the oscillations.

I can\'t start the crystal reliably. If oscillation starts, it runs fine.

I used siimple 24MHz quartz with 1M across and 22pF toward GND on each side.

Can\'t find anythong on the matter on Lattice...

 

[Theo]

Brane 2 <brane331133@gmail.com> wrote:

I tireid using ust a pin pair and inverting function.

But with LVCMOS333 on Breakout Board ( 3,3V for I/O), MachXO implements hysteresis on input and this seems to hamper the oscillations.

Any reason you\'re using a crystal rather than a crystal oscillator?
The latter has the resonant amplifier built in, rather than depending on the
vagaries of the FPGA I/O pads.

(A reason could be to save $0.01 in a product, but I doubt that\'s the case
here)

Theo

 

[Brane 2]

Just testing something. I already have osc on PLL, but needed extra frequency that I couldn\'t synthesize.

I had a crystal for it, but not an oscillator, so I thought about just popping a crystal on FPGA for the test...

 

[Theo]

Brane 2 <brane331133@gmail.com> wrote:

Just testing something. I already have osc on PLL, but needed extra frequency that I couldn\'t synthesize.

I had a crystal for it, but not an oscillator, so I thought about just popping a crystal on FPGA for the test...

To be able to route as a clock internally, you probably have to wire it to a
clock input. I suspect such inputs deliberately have hysteresis to reduce
the jitter of input clocks, which would counteract your wish to have a
resonant circuit.

You could use some discrete components to make a separate
oscillator?

Theo

 

[Brane 2]

I did. 74HC04 plus two small caps and two resistors have done the job for the moment.

I suppose I could do it on FPGA directly, but it would take some time f**ing around with resitive networks etc.

 

[Rick C]

On Tuesday, June 16, 2020 at 7:52:37 AM UTC-4, Theo wrote:

Brane 2 <brane331133@gmail.com> wrote:
Just testing something. I already have osc on PLL, but needed extra frequency that I couldn\'t synthesize.

I had a crystal for it, but not an oscillator, so I thought about just popping a crystal on FPGA for the test...

To be able to route as a clock internally, you probably have to wire it to a
clock input. I suspect such inputs deliberately have hysteresis to reduce
the jitter of input clocks, which would counteract your wish to have a
resonant circuit.

You make two assumptions without checking a data sheet. How likely is your conclusion to be correct?

As it turns out neither of the assumptions are correct. The eight clock inputs on the MachXO2 devices can be single ended or differential. When single ended the Schmitt trigger feature can be turned on or off. The input circuit can be used differentially with an RC used to set the operating point of one input vs. the other. Resistor between the two inputs, a cap on one input and the crystal connection to the other input. This should give optimum sensitivity, almost like an analog device. When the input signal is looped back to the output it will be digital, but with an appropriate attenuation network to protect the crystal from damage, it should work fine. The attenuation network is often used with more analog-like devices such as the 74HC04.

Also, clocks can be sourced from the general routing, so any input can be used for a clock. It may not go through specific clock features and will have more delay, but it will work just fine as an internal clock.

--

Rick C.

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[Brane 2]

Which means using 3 pins for a simple crystal, which often are not there.

It\'s easy to overelook such details in bazillion pages of data sheet.

I tried to do it traditional way with simple input and output.

With 74HC it works just fine. But will have to redo it for an exercise in other versions ( with hysteresis and with diff-input + output.

Also, I\'ve noticed that I can make it oscillate with just one inverter ( probably depending on the routing). It seems this could be done with just one I/O pin, at least in some cases...

 

[Rick C]

On Tuesday, June 16, 2020 at 7:19:43 PM UTC-4, Brane 2 wrote:

Which means using 3 pins for a simple crystal, which often are not there.

It\'s easy to overelook such details in bazillion pages of data sheet.

I tried to do it traditional way with simple input and output.

With 74HC it works just fine. But will have to redo it for an exercise in other versions ( with hysteresis and with diff-input + output.

Also, I\'ve noticed that I can make it oscillate with just one inverter ( probably depending on the routing). It seems this could be done with just one I/O pin, at least in some cases...

A 74HC04 is an amplifier if you are in the middle of the input voltage range. You can do the same thing in an FPGA, but you need to add a high value resistor in parallel with the crystal and make sure there is an inversion between input and output. The resistor will make the circuit unstable and the crystal will control the frequency.

https://assets.nexperia.com/documents/data-sheet/74HC_HCT4060_Q100.pdf

Page 12.

Just make sure to get the I/O configuration right. No Schmitt triggers!

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Rick C.

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[Mike Perkins]

On 16/06/2020 10:20:28, Brane 2 wrote:

I tireid using ust a pin pair and inverting function.

But with LVCMOS333 on Breakout Board ( 3,3V for I/O), MachXO implements hysteresis on input and this seems to hamper the oscillations.

I can\'t start the crystal reliably. If oscillation starts, it runs fine.

I used siimple 24MHz quartz with 1M across and 22pF toward GND on each side.

Can\'t find anythong on the matter on Lattice...

This sounds like a threshold issue. Are you certain the 1M resistor is
sufficient to always drive the input such that the output should switch
polarity?

When it doesn\'t oscillate, is the output always high or low?

What I have seen in similar circumstances, is that the circuit
oscillates at a frequency governed by the R and C in a relaxation mode,
and not the crystal at its resonance.

--
Mike Perkins
Video Solutions Ltd
www.videosolutions.ltd.uk

 

[Rick C]

On Monday, June 22, 2020 at 7:01:11 AM UTC-4, Mike Perkins wrote:

On 16/06/2020 10:20:28, Brane 2 wrote:
I tireid using ust a pin pair and inverting function.

But with LVCMOS333 on Breakout Board ( 3,3V for I/O), MachXO implements hysteresis on input and this seems to hamper the oscillations.

I can\'t start the crystal reliably. If oscillation starts, it runs fine.

I used siimple 24MHz quartz with 1M across and 22pF toward GND on each side.

Can\'t find anythong on the matter on Lattice...


This sounds like a threshold issue. Are you certain the 1M resistor is
sufficient to always drive the input such that the output should switch
polarity?

When it doesn\'t oscillate, is the output always high or low?

What I have seen in similar circumstances, is that the circuit
oscillates at a frequency governed by the R and C in a relaxation mode,
and not the crystal at its resonance.

I believe the resistor is there to establish a DC bias at the threshold of the input. The crystal acts primarily as an LC series resonance, so very low impedance.

A relaxation oscillator requires a change to the threshold for the two states. You will get that if there is hysteresis. Otherwise not.

I believe the initial problem was the inclusion of hysteresis in the input pin configuration.

--

Rick C.

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[Mike Perkins]

On 22/06/2020 16:19:52, Rick C wrote:

On Monday, June 22, 2020 at 7:01:11 AM UTC-4, Mike Perkins wrote:
On 16/06/2020 10:20:28, Brane 2 wrote:
I tireid using ust a pin pair and inverting function.

But with LVCMOS333 on Breakout Board ( 3,3V for I/O), MachXO implements hysteresis on input and this seems to hamper the oscillations.

I can\'t start the crystal reliably. If oscillation starts, it runs fine.

I used siimple 24MHz quartz with 1M across and 22pF toward GND on each side.

Can\'t find anythong on the matter on Lattice...


This sounds like a threshold issue. Are you certain the 1M resistor is
sufficient to always drive the input such that the output should switch
polarity?

When it doesn\'t oscillate, is the output always high or low?

What I have seen in similar circumstances, is that the circuit
oscillates at a frequency governed by the R and C in a relaxation mode,
and not the crystal at its resonance.

I believe the resistor is there to establish a DC bias at the threshold of the input. The crystal acts primarily as an LC series resonance, so very low impedance.

A relaxation oscillator requires a change to the threshold for the two states. You will get that if there is hysteresis. Otherwise not.

The OP mentioned hysteresis on the MaxXO inputs.

> I believe the initial problem was the inclusion of hysteresis in the input pin configuration.

Which, if the 1M resistor is sufficient to establish a DC bias, would
have oscillated in one way or another.



--
Mike Perkins
Video Solutions Ltd
www.videosolutions.ltd.uk

 

[server]

tirsdag den 16. juni 2020 kl. 13.57.58 UTC+2 skrev Brane 2:

I did. 74HC04 plus two small caps and two resistors have done the job for the moment.

I suppose I could do it on FPGA directly, but it would take some time f**ing around with resitive networks etc.

for a crystal oscillator a 74HCU04 is normally used

 

[Richard Damon]

On 6/16/20 5:20 AM, Brane 2 wrote:

I tireid using ust a pin pair and inverting function.

But with LVCMOS333 on Breakout Board ( 3,3V for I/O), MachXO implements hysteresis on input and this seems to hamper the oscillations.

I can\'t start the crystal reliably. If oscillation starts, it runs fine.

I used siimple 24MHz quartz with 1M across and 22pF toward GND on each side.

Can\'t find anythong on the matter on Lattice...

One comment on this, the basic circuit for a crystal oscilator doesn\'t
need an \'Inverter\' from pin to pin, but an inverting amplifier. At the
crystal resonate frequency, it provides 180 degrees of phase shift,
giving positive gain at that frequency, and oscilation.

A typical inverter chip will bias itself into its quasi-linear region
and normally oscillate.

A generic pair of pins is unlikely to end up biasing itself this way
reliably. You are more apt to end up with a relaxation oscillator whose
frequency is based on the capacative load and propagation times.

 

[Brane 2]

On Sunday, June 28, 2020 at 1:24:03 PM UTC, lasselangwad...@gmail.com wrote:

> for a crystal oscillator a 74HCU04 is normally used

True, but I didn\'t have it at handy, so ordinary HC04 had to do...

 

[Rick C]

On Sunday, June 28, 2020 at 3:19:07 PM UTC-4, Richard Damon wrote:

On 6/16/20 5:20 AM, Brane 2 wrote:
I tireid using ust a pin pair and inverting function.

But with LVCMOS333 on Breakout Board ( 3,3V for I/O), MachXO implements hysteresis on input and this seems to hamper the oscillations.

I can\'t start the crystal reliably. If oscillation starts, it runs fine.

I used siimple 24MHz quartz with 1M across and 22pF toward GND on each side.

Can\'t find anythong on the matter on Lattice...


One comment on this, the basic circuit for a crystal oscilator doesn\'t
need an \'Inverter\' from pin to pin, but an inverting amplifier. At the
crystal resonate frequency, it provides 180 degrees of phase shift,
giving positive gain at that frequency, and oscilation.

A typical inverter chip will bias itself into its quasi-linear region
and normally oscillate.

A generic pair of pins is unlikely to end up biasing itself this way
reliably. You are more apt to end up with a relaxation oscillator whose
frequency is based on the capacative load and propagation times.

I would ask what difference you see between an inverter chip and an inverting function in a more complex device that is relevant in this situation?

The point where the bias is important is the input pin. Can you explain what DC level you might expect to see at this input pin that would not be very close to the input threshold voltage?

One of these days I should connect an input and output through a resistor to see just what it does with different delays in the path. Then add a few different crystals to see what happens.

--

Rick C.

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[Brane 2]

One important factor is probably propagation time.

It scerews whole 180° + 180° equation and probably moves the quartz in a suboptimal operating region.

 

[Rick C]

On Monday, June 29, 2020 at 1:50:11 AM UTC-4, Brane 2 wrote:

One important factor is probably propagation time.

It scerews whole 180° + 180° equation and probably moves the quartz in a suboptimal operating region.

So a slow inverter (like CMOS) would have the same problem, no? How much delay is acceptable? I don\'t know any inverters that don\'t have measurable delay.

--

Rick C.

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[Brane 2]

HC,AC have delay that strongly corrsponds to capacitive load.

Fro HC it would be probably about 10 ns worst case and perhaps 3-4 ns when lightly loaded.

But since here it is oerating practically in linear region, I\'d say that with decent VCC (5V) it is closer to 1ns and on 3,3V perhaps 2-3ns...

 

[Brane 2]

Also, separate HC doesn\'t have the problem with current budgets and ground bounce, like FPGA, so that might also be a factor...

 

[Rick C]

On Monday, June 29, 2020 at 7:27:26 AM UTC-4, Brane 2 wrote:

HC,AC have delay that strongly corrsponds to capacitive load.

Fro HC it would be probably about 10 ns worst case and perhaps 3-4 ns when lightly loaded.

But since here it is oerating practically in linear region, I\'d say that with decent VCC (5V) it is closer to 1ns and on 3,3V perhaps 2-3ns...

Why would running linear give a 1 ns delay? Even a couple of ns sounds significant when running a 24 MHz crystal. I can get single digit ns delays from pin to pin in an FPGA.

TA = +25°C -40°C to +85°C -40°C to +125°C
VCC Typ Max Max Max
4.5V — 9 18 23 27

That\'s a far cry from 1 ns.

I\'m just not buying the idea that a 74HC04 will be a fine oscillator when a 12 pF load capacitor is used and an FPGA loopback will not.

I once designed a circuit where from input to output I had 15 ns. It\'s still working fine and that was an FPGA available in 2000.

--

Rick C.

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