XTL choice for 137Hz w/ CD4046

On 11/03/2010 6:06 PM, Michael A. Terrell wrote:

Joerg wrote:

Don Lerner wrote:
If I use a CD 4060 to generate 137 Hz, given the divide down outputs
available, what frequency crystal should I use?

I am not aware of what crystals are commonly available, so my mind is
buckling trying to find a starting point.

Perhaps someone here is more familliar with this procedure and would
be so kind as to offer advice.


As the other posters said a uC is the better choice here. If it
absolutely has to be the 4060 the procedure goes like this:

Let Excel display a (2^x)*137 ladder of values, then see if any one
comes close to a standard crystal. The only one I could see would be the
former European chroma carrier frequency of 4.43MHz but you'd need
4.49MHz. Not easy to pull a crystal that far, it's more than a percent.
I don't think this is really going to work with a crystal unless you use
a uC, or the timer in there in particular.


This is a list of frequencies available from the Digikey website:


20.000 kHz
25.600 kHz
26.667 kHz
28.000 kHz
30.000 kHz

30.720 kHz
30.760 kHz
31.200 kHz
31.250 kHz
31.500 kHz


32.000 kHz
32.560 kHz
32.768 kHz
32.919 kHz
34.000 kHz

36.000 kHz
38.000 kHz
38.400 kHz
39.500 kHz
40.000 kHz


44.100 kHz
46.604 kHz
46.6084kHz
50.000 kHz
59.787 kHz

60.000 kHz
60.002 kHz
60.005 kHz
65.535 kHz
65.536 kHz


69.000 kHz
70.000 kHz


137 * 512 = 70.144k

an error of .2 percent. You should be able to trim that out

Phil Hobbs wrote:
On 3/10/2010 12:54 PM, Joerg wrote:

Phil Hobbs wrote:

On 3/9/2010 8:44 PM, mpm wrote:

On Mar 9, 6:22 pm, donler...@quantumx.com (Don Lerner) wrote:

If I use a CD 4060 to generate 137 Hz, given the divide down outputs
available, what frequency crystal should I use?

I am not aware of what crystals are commonly available, so my mind is
buckling trying to find a starting point.

Perhaps someone here is more familliar with this procedure and would
be so kind as to offer advice.

Don Lerner


I would use a microcontroller for this.
There are some small, inexpensive 8-pin devices out there that have
internal clocks and counters.
For example, this one should do nicely:
Link:
http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&name=568-2245-5-ND



It has an internal 7.373 MHz oscillator, or you can use an external
crystal (from 20 kHz to 12 MHz).
Just use software to count it down. Should be relatively easy to get
137 Hz out on a port pin.

If you are not terribly familiar with uPC's, this sound like the
PERFECT project to learn about them!!
It doesn't get too much easier than this.

Good luck with your project!!
-mpm


Of course you can get programmable XOs, programmed by the distributor,
for a few bucks, at any frequency you like.


But that's like ordering take-out pizza.

We always make our own from scratch, including dough and all :-)

That's just because you live in the boonies and don't know any better.

Me, I'm 2 blocks from Dom & Vinnie's. New York pizza doesn't get any
better.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs


Right - but you still gotta try barbecued pizza. You won't
believe how good it is until you try it.

On 11/03/2010 6:06 PM, Michael A. Terrell wrote:

Joerg wrote:

Don Lerner wrote:
If I use a CD 4060 to generate 137 Hz, given the divide down outputs
available, what frequency crystal should I use?

I am not aware of what crystals are commonly available, so my mind is
buckling trying to find a starting point.

Perhaps someone here is more familliar with this procedure and would
be so kind as to offer advice.


As the other posters said a uC is the better choice here. If it
absolutely has to be the 4060 the procedure goes like this:

Let Excel display a (2^x)*137 ladder of values, then see if any one
comes close to a standard crystal. The only one I could see would be the
former European chroma carrier frequency of 4.43MHz but you'd need
4.49MHz. Not easy to pull a crystal that far, it's more than a percent.
I don't think this is really going to work with a crystal unless you use
a uC, or the timer in there in particular.


This is a list of frequencies available from the Digikey website:


20.000 kHz
25.600 kHz
26.667 kHz
28.000 kHz
30.000 kHz

30.720 kHz
30.760 kHz
31.200 kHz
31.250 kHz
31.500 kHz


32.000 kHz
32.560 kHz
32.768 kHz
32.919 kHz
34.000 kHz

36.000 kHz
38.000 kHz
38.400 kHz
39.500 kHz
40.000 kHz


44.100 kHz
46.604 kHz
46.6084kHz
50.000 kHz
59.787 kHz

60.000 kHz
60.002 kHz
60.005 kHz
65.535 kHz
65.536 kHz


69.000 kHz
70.000 kHz


137 * 512 = 70.144k

an error of .2 percent. You should be able to trim that out

David Eather wrote:
On 11/03/2010 6:06 PM, Michael A. Terrell wrote:

Joerg wrote:

Don Lerner wrote:
If I use a CD 4060 to generate 137 Hz, given the divide down outputs
available, what frequency crystal should I use?

I am not aware of what crystals are commonly available, so my mind is
buckling trying to find a starting point.

Perhaps someone here is more familliar with this procedure and would
be so kind as to offer advice.


As the other posters said a uC is the better choice here. If it
absolutely has to be the 4060 the procedure goes like this:

Let Excel display a (2^x)*137 ladder of values, then see if any one
comes close to a standard crystal. The only one I could see would be the
former European chroma carrier frequency of 4.43MHz but you'd need
4.49MHz. Not easy to pull a crystal that far, it's more than a percent.
I don't think this is really going to work with a crystal unless you use
a uC, or the timer in there in particular.


This is a list of frequencies available from the Digikey website:


20.000 kHz
25.600 kHz
26.667 kHz
28.000 kHz
30.000 kHz

30.720 kHz
30.760 kHz
31.200 kHz
31.250 kHz
31.500 kHz


32.000 kHz
32.560 kHz
32.768 kHz
32.919 kHz
34.000 kHz

36.000 kHz
38.000 kHz
38.400 kHz
39.500 kHz
40.000 kHz


44.100 kHz
46.604 kHz
46.6084kHz
50.000 kHz
59.787 kHz

60.000 kHz
60.002 kHz
60.005 kHz
65.535 kHz
65.536 kHz


69.000 kHz
70.000 kHz


137 * 512 = 70.144k

an error of .2 percent. You should be able to trim that out

0.1% is often ok but 0.2% gets iffy, especially with a low frequency
crystal.

Now Don could do what we used to do when I was a teenager. Get a few
army surplus FT-crystals. They have a lid held by Philips screws so you
can take the crystal out and polish it up in frequency

Joerg wrote:
David Eather wrote:
On 11/03/2010 6:06 PM, Michael A. Terrell wrote:
Joerg wrote:
Don Lerner wrote:
If I use a CD 4060 to generate 137 Hz, given the divide down outputs
available, what frequency crystal should I use?

I am not aware of what crystals are commonly available, so my mind is
buckling trying to find a starting point.

Perhaps someone here is more familliar with this procedure and would
be so kind as to offer advice.

As the other posters said a uC is the better choice here. If it
absolutely has to be the 4060 the procedure goes like this:

Let Excel display a (2^x)*137 ladder of values, then see if any one
comes close to a standard crystal. The only one I could see would be the
former European chroma carrier frequency of 4.43MHz but you'd need
4.49MHz. Not easy to pull a crystal that far, it's more than a percent.
I don't think this is really going to work with a crystal unless you use
a uC, or the timer in there in particular.

This is a list of frequencies available from the Digikey website:


20.000 kHz
25.600 kHz
26.667 kHz
28.000 kHz
30.000 kHz

30.720 kHz
30.760 kHz
31.200 kHz
31.250 kHz
31.500 kHz


32.000 kHz
32.560 kHz
32.768 kHz
32.919 kHz
34.000 kHz

36.000 kHz
38.000 kHz
38.400 kHz
39.500 kHz
40.000 kHz


44.100 kHz
46.604 kHz
46.6084kHz
50.000 kHz
59.787 kHz

60.000 kHz
60.002 kHz
60.005 kHz
65.535 kHz
65.536 kHz


69.000 kHz
70.000 kHz

137 * 512 = 70.144k

an error of .2 percent. You should be able to trim that out
0.1% is often ok but 0.2% gets iffy, especially with a low frequency
crystal.

Now Don could do what we used to do when I was a teenager. Get a few
army surplus FT-crystals. They have a lid held by Philips screws so you
can take the crystal out and polish it up in frequency :-)


Have you tried to find any of those in the last 20 years? They have
been obsolete for 60 years, and have been hard to find for 20 years.

Michael A. Terrell wrote:
Joerg wrote:
David Eather wrote:
On 11/03/2010 6:06 PM, Michael A. Terrell wrote:
Joerg wrote:
Don Lerner wrote:
If I use a CD 4060 to generate 137 Hz, given the divide down outputs
available, what frequency crystal should I use?

I am not aware of what crystals are commonly available, so my mind is
buckling trying to find a starting point.

Perhaps someone here is more familliar with this procedure and would
be so kind as to offer advice.

As the other posters said a uC is the better choice here. If it
absolutely has to be the 4060 the procedure goes like this:

Let Excel display a (2^x)*137 ladder of values, then see if any one
comes close to a standard crystal. The only one I could see would be the
former European chroma carrier frequency of 4.43MHz but you'd need
4.49MHz. Not easy to pull a crystal that far, it's more than a percent.
I don't think this is really going to work with a crystal unless you use
a uC, or the timer in there in particular.

This is a list of frequencies available from the Digikey website:


20.000 kHz
25.600 kHz
26.667 kHz
28.000 kHz
30.000 kHz

30.720 kHz
30.760 kHz
31.200 kHz
31.250 kHz
31.500 kHz


32.000 kHz
32.560 kHz
32.768 kHz
32.919 kHz
34.000 kHz

36.000 kHz
38.000 kHz
38.400 kHz
39.500 kHz
40.000 kHz


44.100 kHz
46.604 kHz
46.6084kHz
50.000 kHz
59.787 kHz

60.000 kHz
60.002 kHz
60.005 kHz
65.535 kHz
65.536 kHz


69.000 kHz
70.000 kHz

137 * 512 = 70.144k

an error of .2 percent. You should be able to trim that out
0.1% is often ok but 0.2% gets iffy, especially with a low frequency
crystal.

Now Don could do what we used to do when I was a teenager. Get a few
army surplus FT-crystals. They have a lid held by Philips screws so you
can take the crystal out and polish it up in frequency :-)


Have you tried to find any of those in the last 20 years? They have
been obsolete for 60 years, and have been hard to find for 20 years.


That would be no problem, Sir:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Lot-of-9-2-Meter-FT-243-crystals_W0QQitemZ270543144551QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item3efda0c667

Joerg wrote:
Michael A. Terrell wrote:
Joerg wrote:

Now Don could do what we used to do when I was a teenager. Get a few
army surplus FT-crystals. They have a lid held by Philips screws so you
can take the crystal out and polish it up in frequency :-)

Have you tried to find any of those in the last 20 years? They have
been obsolete for 60 years, and have been hard to find for 20 years.

That would be no problem, Sir:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Lot-of-9-2-Meter-FT-243-crystals_W0QQitemZ270543144551QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item3efda0c667


Kind of high frequency for the input of a 4060 divider, isn't it?

Nine crystals? You might be surprised at how high the price will go,
since the boat anchor ham radio types will usually pay a high price for
them, now that there aren't millions of fresh surplus for 10 cents
each. ...

... A lot of them are defective, as well since they are not
hermetically sealed. that causes the activity to be low, which requires
more drive that can destroy the crystal. FT243 crystals were crude, at
best and time hasn't been kind to them. Others have been dropped and
the quartz is fractured.

Like I said in another post, a common 100 KHz crystal is only 10
cycles low, for a divisor of 730.

137*730=100,010 Hz which is a .01% error. Digikey has new 100 KHz
crystals for 83 cents each.

Michael A. Terrell wrote:
Joerg wrote:
Michael A. Terrell wrote:
Joerg wrote:

[...]

Now Don could do what we used to do when I was a teenager. Get a few
army surplus FT-crystals. They have a lid held by Philips screws so you
can take the crystal out and polish it up in frequency :-)

Have you tried to find any of those in the last 20 years? They have
been obsolete for 60 years, and have been hard to find for 20 years.

That would be no problem, Sir:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Lot-of-9-2-Meter-FT-243-crystals_W0QQitemZ270543144551QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item3efda0c667


Kind of high frequency for the input of a 4060 divider, isn't it?

No, 2-Meter refers to the kind of radio they were used in. Enlarge the
image and you'll see that they are all slightly above 8MHz. Or 8000
kilocycles in old army-speak

Nine crystals? You might be surprised at how high the price will go,
since the boat anchor ham radio types will usually pay a high price for
them, now that there aren't millions of fresh surplus for 10 cents
each. ...

Usually not. Watch a few auctions, many remain at zero bids for a long
time or find no takers.

... A lot of them are defective, as well since they are not
hermetically sealed. that causes the activity to be low, which requires
more drive that can destroy the crystal. FT243 crystals were crude, at
best and time hasn't been kind to them. Others have been dropped and
the quartz is fractured.


Well, that's the case with all old stuff. As long as the contacts are
not too corroded you can usually restore.


Like I said in another post, a common 100 KHz crystal is only 10
cycles low, for a divisor of 730.

137*730=100,010 Hz which is a .01% error. Digikey has new 100 KHz
crystals for 83 cents each.


Well, yeah, but Don wanted to use just a CD4060, for whatever reason. I
think a uC is the proper way to handle this.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

"gmail" domain blocked because of excessive spam.
Use another domain or send PM.

Joerg wrote:
Michael A. Terrell wrote:
Joerg wrote:
Michael A. Terrell wrote:
Joerg wrote:
[...]

Now Don could do what we used to do when I was a teenager. Get a few
army surplus FT-crystals. They have a lid held by Philips screws so you
can take the crystal out and polish it up in frequency
Have you tried to find any of those in the last 20 years? They have
been obsolete for 60 years, and have been hard to find for 20 years.

That would be no problem, Sir:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Lot-of-9-2-Meter-FT-243-crystals_W0QQitemZ270543144551QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item3efda0c667

Kind of high frequency for the input of a 4060 divider, isn't it?
No, 2-Meter refers to the kind of radio they were used in. Enlarge the
image and you'll see that they are all slightly above 8MHz. Or 8000
kilocycles in old army-speak :-)


I know what the multiplier chain for an old 2-meter rig looked like.
I serviced them for 30+ years, and still have a Harris business radio
that was converted to 2 Meters to monitor the local repeaters. I was
talking about the fact that the older CMOS ICs used more power at higher
frequencies. National lists 8 MHz as close to the upper limit for their
4060s. Watches use 32,768 Hz crystals to conserve power, after all.

Nine crystals? You might be surprised at how high the price will go,
since the boat anchor ham radio types will usually pay a high price for
them, now that there aren't millions of fresh surplus for 10 cents
each. ...
Usually not. Watch a few auctions, many remain at zero bids for a long
time or find no takers.


Only if they are of no use for any ham application.

I know what the multiplier chain for an old 2-meter rig looked like.
I serviced them for 30+ years, and still have a Harris business radio
that was converted to 2 Meters to monitor the local repeaters.
[snip]

Michael A. Terrell wrote:
Joerg wrote:
Michael A. Terrell wrote:
Joerg wrote:
Michael A. Terrell wrote:
Joerg wrote:
[...]

Now Don could do what we used to do when I was a teenager. Get a few
army surplus FT-crystals. They have a lid held by Philips screws so you
can take the crystal out and polish it up in frequency
Have you tried to find any of those in the last 20 years? They have
been obsolete for 60 years, and have been hard to find for 20 years.

That would be no problem, Sir:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Lot-of-9-2-Meter-FT-243-crystals_W0QQitemZ270543144551QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item3efda0c667

Kind of high frequency for the input of a 4060 divider, isn't it?
No, 2-Meter refers to the kind of radio they were used in. Enlarge the
image and you'll see that they are all slightly above 8MHz. Or 8000
kilocycles in old army-speak :-)


I know what the multiplier chain for an old 2-meter rig looked like.
I serviced them for 30+ years, and still have a Harris business radio
that was converted to 2 Meters to monitor the local repeaters. I was
talking about the fact that the older CMOS ICs used more power at higher
frequencies. National lists 8 MHz as close to the upper limit for their
4060s. Watches use 32,768 Hz crystals to conserve power, after all.


It'll usually do 12MHz when supplied with 15V. National? Now that's a
blast from the past

Nine crystals? You might be surprised at how high the price will go,
since the boat anchor ham radio types will usually pay a high price for
them, now that there aren't millions of fresh surplus for 10 cents
each. ...
Usually not. Watch a few auctions, many remain at zero bids for a long
time or find no takers.


Only if they are of no use for any ham application.


They usually aren't. Hams have moved into the 21st century and use
synthesizers

These days such crystals are usually bought by collectors, restorers or
hardcore homebrewers.

On Thu, 11 Mar 2010 11:46:00 -0500, "Michael A. Terrell"
mike.terrell_at_earthlink.net> wrote:

[snip]
I know what the multiplier chain for an old 2-meter rig looked like.
I serviced them for 30+ years, and still have a Harris business radio
that was converted to 2 Meters to monitor the local repeaters.
[snip]

My first home-brew 2-meter transmitter used a power varactor tripler
:-)

On Thu, 11 Mar 2010 11:46:00 -0500, "Michael A. Terrell"
mike.terrell_at_earthlink.net> wrote:

[snip]

I know what the multiplier chain for an old 2-meter rig looked like.
I serviced them for 30+ years, and still have a Harris business radio
that was converted to 2 Meters to monitor the local repeaters.
[snip]

My first home-brew 2-meter transmitter used a power varactor tripler

Joerg wrote:

These days such crystals are usually bought by collectors, restorers or
hardcore homebrewers.


That's what I said in another message.

Joerg wrote:
Well, yeah, but Don wanted to use just a CD4060, for whatever
reason.
I think a uC is the proper way to handle this.

The OP has been silent all this time while we've been suggesting
and discussing various options. His opening post was unambiguous
about using a CD4060. He's given no indication of whether this is
a one-off hobby project or for a production run. We don't know if
he's committed to using a 4060 or if this is one of those
situations that, I suspect, is behind many of the questions asked
here: Someone starts out with what he thinks would be a good
approach to achieve a target function, but then gets stuck at
some point. He then asks about that sticky point without
mentioning that alternative solutions are equally acceptable.

I'm not criticising such posts. I've done it myself. But the
discussion becomes a bit pointless without further input from the
OP.