XO controlled 480Hz Oscillator

Chris wrote in message

65679271-8f0a-4cf8-85aa-78ca82b88...@k6g2000prg.googlegroups.com>...
On Feb 3, 7:35 pm, ehsjr <eh...@nospamverizon.net> wrote:



Chris wrote:
On Feb 3, 7:15 am, Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-I...@My-Web-
Site.com> wrote:

On Wed, 03 Feb 2010 09:13:12 -0600, Vladimir Vassilevsky

nos...@nowhere.com> wrote:

Jim Thompson wrote:

On Wed, 3 Feb 2010 06:15:37 -0800 (PST), George Herold
ggher...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Feb 2, 11:29 am, Chris <christopher.man...@gmail.com> wrote:

What is the simplest way to get 480Hz from a crystal controlled
oscillator? Looks like most of the pre-packaged XO's and VCXO, seem
to put out much higher frequencies. Would a series of dividers be
the
best way?

Thanks,
Chris KQ6UP

OK this is probably a stupid idea. But could you phase lock to the
8th harmonic of the 60Hz line frequency?

George H.

AC Line is sort of sinusoidal, so 8th harmonic content is probably not
all that wonderful, but a PLL with a DIV8 as feedback should work
great... do it all in cheapy CMOS, at low power ;-)

AC -> XOR gate -> RC -> XOR gate -> RC -> XOR gate

:)))))

BTW, I actually used that sort of thing for frequency doubling in one
of the projects...

VLV

Yep. I've done that sort of thing clear up into the GHz range.

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, CTO | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | |
| Voice:(480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat |
| E-mail Icon athttp://www.analog-innovations.com|1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.

I called a local custom crystal manufacturer -- $18 for a 7864320 Hz
Crystal.

Or spend 40 cents for the 3.93216MHz crystal the MooseFET
recommended. In stock at Digikey. Use Q13 to divide
by 8192.

Ed

The most straight forward approach looks like the CD4060B.
I found a source $3 for a pack of 25. If you look at Fig. 13 in the
data sheet for the CD4060B, it shows how to hook the crystal up to the
chip. All I need is two caps and two resistors. The crystal
manufacturer said that he would give me the values that I need to
calculate C1 and C2. I am wondering what value I would need for RC.

Thanks,
Chris KQ6UP

Well, I already ordered the crystal.  I will keep that in mind.  I
need to make a 60Hz VCXO in a PLL slaved to a 24Hz pulse.  That is for
later though.

Regards,
Chris Maness

If your camera's drive motor is sync'd to 60 cycles, then you could extract
the 8th harmonic of 60 cycles to end up with 480 hz. There would be some
value in having both the deck and camera speed controlled by the same
reference frequency (line frequency). For that matter, you could install an
alternator or optical disk somewhere on one of the camera's rotating parts
to generate 480hz. In the long run, I don't see how you are going to sync
the two without time code on the film and the tape. Tape will slip, that's
guaranteed, and the error accumulates no matter how accurate the capstan
speed

On Feb 3, 10:05 am, Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-I...@My-



Web-Site.com> wrote:
On Wed, 3 Feb 2010 06:15:37 -0800 (PST), George Herold

ggher...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Feb 2, 11:29 am, Chris <christopher.man...@gmail.com> wrote:
What is the simplest way to get 480Hz from a crystal controlled
oscillator?  Looks like most of the pre-packaged XO's and VCXO, seem
to put out much higher frequencies.  Would a series of dividers be the
best way?

Thanks,
Chris KQ6UP

OK this is probably a stupid idea.  But could you phase lock to the
8th harmonic of the 60Hz line frequency?

George H.

AC Line is sort of sinusoidal, so 8th harmonic content is probably not
all that wonderful, but a PLL with a DIV8 as feedback should work
great... do it all in cheapy CMOS, at low power ;-)

                                        ...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, CTO                            |    mens     |
| Analog Innovations, Inc.                         |     et      |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems  |    manus    |
| Phoenix, Arizona  85048    Skype: Contacts Only  |             |
| Voice:(480)460-2350  Fax: Available upon request |  Brass Rat  |
| E-mail Icon athttp://www.analog-innovations.com|   1962     |

I love to cook with wine.     Sometimes I even put it in the food.

Yeah, that's what I meant.  I've never done a PLL circuit.... But if I
can 'restrict' the VCO so that it only 'goes' near 480 Hz, then it
should be a simple matter to 'lock-in'.

On Feb 3, 4:49 am, Spehro Pefhany <speffS...@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat
wrote:
On Tue, 2 Feb 2010 08:29:47 -0800 (PST), the renowned Chris

christopher.man...@gmail.com> wrote:
What is the simplest way to get 480Hz from a crystal controlled
oscillator?  Looks like most of the pre-packaged XO's and VCXO, seem
to put out much higher frequencies.  Would a series of dividers be the
best way?

Thanks,
Chris KQ6UP

I'd suggest a PIC12F508 and a standard 3.6864MHz crystal (eg. Citizen
HC49US-3.6864MABJ-UB) which total less than $2 one-off.  

To get exact 50% duty cycle 480Hz square waves you need exactly 960
instruction cycles between toggles during which time you can count
down from 255 a few times, count down from something less than 255
once, and yank the leash of the WDT, and loop back. Easily done
in a handful of lines of assembler.

With a HC4060 you need fewer instructions

On Wed, 3 Feb 2010 06:20:28 -0800 (PST), the renowned MooseFET



kensm...@rahul.net> wrote:
On Feb 3, 4:49 am, Spehro Pefhany <speffS...@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat
wrote:
On Tue, 2 Feb 2010 08:29:47 -0800 (PST), the renowned Chris

christopher.man...@gmail.com> wrote:
What is the simplest way to get480Hzfrom a crystal controlled
oscillator?  Looks like most of the pre-packaged XO's and VCXO, seem
to put out much higher frequencies.  Would a series of dividers be the
best way?

Thanks,
Chris KQ6UP

I'd suggest a PIC12F508 and a standard 3.6864MHz crystal (eg. Citizen
HC49US-3.6864MABJ-UB) which total less than $2 one-off.  

To get exact 50% duty cycle480Hzsquare waves you need exactly 960
instruction cycles between toggles during which time you can count
down from 255 a few times, count down from something less than 255
once, and yank the leash of the WDT, and loop back. Easily done
in a handful of lines of assembler.

With a HC4060 you need fewer instructions

Not that many fewer. 16 words of program memory and one RAM location.

http://www.speff.com/pic_480.jpghttp://www.speff.com/freq_480.jpg

The load caps are not optimal because it's in a solderless breadboard,
but still the accuracy is within about 0.004%. Not too shabby.

Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..."                          "The Journey is the reward"
sp...@interlog.com             Info for manufacturers:http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog  Info for designers:  http://www.speff.com

On Feb 4, 4:43 am, George Herold <ggher...@gmail.com> wrote:





On Feb 3, 10:05 am, Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-I...@My-

Web-Site.com> wrote:
On Wed, 3 Feb 2010 06:15:37 -0800 (PST), George Herold

ggher...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Feb 2, 11:29 am, Chris <christopher.man...@gmail.com> wrote:
What is the simplest way to get 480Hz from a crystal controlled
oscillator?  Looks like most of the pre-packaged XO's and VCXO, seem
to put out much higher frequencies.  Would a series of dividers be the
best way?

Thanks,
Chris KQ6UP

OK this is probably a stupid idea.  But could you phase lock to the
8th harmonic of the 60Hz line frequency?

George H.

AC Line is sort of sinusoidal, so 8th harmonic content is probably not
all that wonderful, but a PLL with a DIV8 as feedback should work
great... do it all in cheapy CMOS, at low power ;-)

                                        ...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, CTO                            |    mens     |
| Analog Innovations, Inc.                         |     et      |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems  |    manus    |
| Phoenix, Arizona  85048    Skype: Contacts Only  |             |
| Voice:(480)460-2350  Fax: Available upon request |  Brass Rat  |
| E-mail Icon athttp://www.analog-innovations.com|   1962     |

I love to cook with wine.     Sometimes I even put it in the food..

Yeah, that's what I meant.  I've never done a PLL circuit.... But if I
can 'restrict' the VCO so that it only 'goes' near 480 Hz, then it
should be a simple matter to 'lock-in'.

Unfortunately, while the mains frequency it held at precisely 50Hz (or
60Hz) over the long term, it can vary by a few percent in the short
term, so it wouldn't be a good idea for Chris to lock his 480Hz to the
mains.

--
Bill Sloman, Nijmegen- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

On Feb 3, 9:54 pm, "JosephKK"<quiettechb...@yahoo.com> wrote:
On Tue, 02 Feb 2010 11:56:24 -0600, Tim Wescott <t...@seemywebsite.com> wrote:
On Tue, 02 Feb 2010 09:47:50 -0800, Chris wrote:

The simplest way is MCU with external crystal. For 480 Hz output, the
crystal is likely to be a multiple of 3 MHz. The 12.0 MHz would be the
most common.

Is an MCU the same as a PIC?

All PICs are MCUs.  Not all MCUs are PICs.  The top contenders that I
know of are the PIC and the AVR from Atmel.  There are probably low pin-
count 8051 derivatives out there, not to mention the '430 from TI.

Intersil ought to revive the 1802 core, in a 16-pin package surrounded by
all the usual peripherals.

I would certainly like to see them again, i liked the architecture, though many did not.

If you liked the 1802, I assume you also like wacking your thumb with
a hammer.

On Feb 4, 5:14 pm,Bill Sloman<bill.slo...@ieee.org> wrote:



On Feb 4, 4:43 am, George Herold <ggher...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Feb 3, 10:05 am, Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-I...@My-

Web-Site.com> wrote:
On Wed, 3 Feb 2010 06:15:37 -0800 (PST), George Herold

ggher...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Feb 2, 11:29 am, Chris <christopher.man...@gmail.com> wrote:
What is the simplest way to get 480Hz from a crystal controlled
oscillator?  Looks like most of the pre-packaged XO's and VCXO, seem
to put out much higher frequencies.  Would a series of dividers be the
best way?

Thanks,
Chris KQ6UP

OK this is probably a stupid idea.  But could you phase lock to the
8th harmonic of the 60Hz line frequency?

George H.

AC Line is sort of sinusoidal, so 8th harmonic content is probably not
all that wonderful, but a PLL with a DIV8 as feedback should work
great... do it all in cheapy CMOS, at low power ;-)

                                        ...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, CTO                            |    mens     |
| Analog Innovations, Inc.                         |     et      |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems  |    manus    |
| Phoenix, Arizona  85048    Skype: Contacts Only  |             |
| Voice:(480)460-2350  Fax: Available upon request |  Brass Rat  |
| E-mail Icon athttp://www.analog-innovations.com|   1962     |

I love to cook with wine.     Sometimes I even put it in the food.

Yeah, that's what I meant.  I've never done a PLL circuit.... But if I
can 'restrict' the VCO so that it only 'goes' near 480 Hz, then it
should be a simple matter to 'lock-in'.

Unfortunately, while the mains frequency it held at precisely 50Hz (or
60Hz) over the long term, it can vary by a few percent in the short
term, so it wouldn't be a good idea for Chris to lock his 480Hz to the
mains.

--
Bill Sloman, Nijmegen- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Hmm I've never looked that closely at line frequency.  Do you have any
idea how long you'd have to average for to 'clean things up'?  A few
second time constant is not too bad for an oscillator.

On Feb 4, 4:43 am, George Herold <ggher...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Feb 3, 10:05 am, Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-I...@My-



Web-Site.com> wrote:
On Wed, 3 Feb 2010 06:15:37 -0800 (PST), George Herold

ggher...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Feb 2, 11:29 am, Chris <christopher.man...@gmail.com> wrote:
What is the simplest way to get 480Hz from a crystal controlled
oscillator?  Looks like most of the pre-packaged XO's and VCXO, seem
to put out much higher frequencies.  Would a series of dividers be the
best way?

Thanks,
Chris KQ6UP

OK this is probably a stupid idea.  But could you phase lock to the
8th harmonic of the 60Hz line frequency?

George H.

AC Line is sort of sinusoidal, so 8th harmonic content is probably not
all that wonderful, but a PLL with a DIV8 as feedback should work
great... do it all in cheapy CMOS, at low power ;-)

                                        ...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, CTO                            |    mens     |
| Analog Innovations, Inc.                         |     et      |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems  |    manus    |
| Phoenix, Arizona  85048    Skype: Contacts Only  |             |
| Voice:(480)460-2350  Fax: Available upon request |  Brass Rat  |
| E-mail Icon athttp://www.analog-innovations.com|   1962     |

I love to cook with wine.     Sometimes I even put it in the food.

Yeah, that's what I meant.  I've never done a PLL circuit.... But if I
can 'restrict' the VCO so that it only 'goes' near 480 Hz, then it
should be a simple matter to 'lock-in'.

Unfortunately, while the mains frequency it held at precisely 50Hz (or
60Hz) over the long term, it can vary by a few percent in the short
term, so it wouldn't be a good idea for Chris to lock his 480Hz to the
mains.

On Thu, 4 Feb 2010 14:14:11 -0800 (PST), Bill Sloman
bill.sloman_at_ieee.org> wrote:

On Feb 4, 4:43 am, George Herold <ggher...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Feb 3, 10:05 am, Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-I...@My-



Web-Site.com> wrote:
On Wed, 3 Feb 2010 06:15:37 -0800 (PST), George Herold
ggher...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Feb 2, 11:29 am, Chris <christopher.man...@gmail.com> wrote:
What is the simplest way to get 480Hz from a crystal controlled
oscillator? Looks like most of the pre-packaged XO's and VCXO, seem
to put out much higher frequencies. Would a series of dividers be the
best way?
Thanks,
Chris KQ6UP
OK this is probably a stupid idea. But could you phase lock to the
8th harmonic of the 60Hz line frequency?
George H.
AC Line is sort of sinusoidal, so 8th harmonic content is probably not
all that wonderful, but a PLL with a DIV8 as feedback should work
great... do it all in cheapy CMOS, at low power
...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, CTO | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | |
| Voice:(480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat |
| E-mail Icon athttp://www.analog-innovations.com| 1962 |
I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.
Yeah, that's what I meant. I've never done a PLL circuit.... But if I
can 'restrict' the VCO so that it only 'goes' near 480 Hz, then it
should be a simple matter to 'lock-in'.
Unfortunately, while the mains frequency it held at precisely 50Hz (or
60Hz) over the long term, it can vary by a few percent in the short
term, so it wouldn't be a good idea for Chris to lock his 480Hz to the
mains.

A few percent seems way high to me for the North American power grid.
0.03Hz = 0.05% will apparently affect power transfer by 1 GW. IIRC, HP
wrote a report many years ago in which short term stability was of the
order of a tenth or two tenths of a percent.

On Feb 5, 4:30 am, George Herold <ggher...@gmail.com> wrote:



On Feb 4, 5:14 pm,Bill Sloman<bill.slo...@ieee.org> wrote:

On Feb 4, 4:43 am, George Herold <ggher...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Feb 3, 10:05 am, Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-I...@My-

Web-Site.com> wrote:
On Wed, 3 Feb 2010 06:15:37 -0800 (PST), George Herold

ggher...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Feb 2, 11:29 am, Chris <christopher.man...@gmail.com> wrote:
What is the simplest way to get 480Hz from a crystal controlled
oscillator?  Looks like most of the pre-packaged XO's and VCXO, seem
to put out much higher frequencies.  Would a series of dividers be the
best way?

Thanks,
Chris KQ6UP

OK this is probably a stupid idea.  But could you phase lock to the
8th harmonic of the 60Hz line frequency?

George H.

AC Line is sort of sinusoidal, so 8th harmonic content is probably not
all that wonderful, but a PLL with a DIV8 as feedback should work
great... do it all in cheapy CMOS, at low power ;-)

                                        ...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, CTO                            |    mens     |
| Analog Innovations, Inc.                         |     et      |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems  |    manus    |
| Phoenix, Arizona  85048    Skype: Contacts Only  |             |
| Voice:(480)460-2350  Fax: Available upon request |  Brass Rat  |
| E-mail Icon athttp://www.analog-innovations.com|   1962     |

I love to cook with wine.     Sometimes I even put it in the food.

Yeah, that's what I meant.  I've never done a PLL circuit.... But if I
can 'restrict' the VCO so that it only 'goes' near 480 Hz, then it
should be a simple matter to 'lock-in'.

Unfortunately, while the mains frequency it held at precisely 50Hz (or
60Hz) over the long term, it can vary by a few percent in the short
term, so it wouldn't be a good idea for Chris to lock his 480Hz to the
mains.

--
Bill Sloman, Nijmegen- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Hmm I've never looked that closely at line frequency.  Do you have any
idea how long you'd have to average for to 'clean things up'?  A few
second time constant is not too bad for an oscillator.

I don't really know. As I understand it, if the load on the network
gets heavier, the first effect is to slow down the generators and drop
the frequency, and the control loop then turns up the power in the
steam generator or the gas turbine driving the generator to restore
the frequency and push it back above 50Hz (60Hz) for a bit so that all
the mains-driven synchronous clocks go back to reading the right time.

This is all fairly heay machinery, so a few seconds probably isn't
long enough.

On Thu, 4 Feb 2010 06:52:50 -0800 (PST), MooseFET <kensm...@rahul.net> wrote:
On Feb 3, 9:54 pm, "JosephKK"<quiettechb...@yahoo.com> wrote:
On Tue, 02 Feb 2010 11:56:24 -0600, Tim Wescott <t...@seemywebsite.com> wrote:
On Tue, 02 Feb 2010 09:47:50 -0800, Chris wrote:

The simplest way is MCU with external crystal. For 480 Hz output, the
crystal is likely to be a multiple of 3 MHz. The 12.0 MHz would be the
most common.

Is an MCU the same as a PIC?

All PICs are MCUs.  Not all MCUs are PICs.  The top contenders that I
know of are the PIC and the AVR from Atmel.  There are probably low pin-
count 8051 derivatives out there, not to mention the '430 from TI.

Intersil ought to revive the 1802 core, in a 16-pin package surrounded by
all the usual peripherals.

I would certainly like to see them again, i liked the architecture, though many did not.

If you liked the 1802, I assume you also like wacking your thumb with
a hammer.

If you want a grotesque architecture try the Fairchild 3850 uP.  I guarantee the 1802 is
sweetness and light by comparison.  And my thumbs are all perfectly safe from my several
hammers.

Use Q13 to divide by 8192.

On Feb 5, 6:23 am, "JosephKK"<quiettechb...@yahoo.com> wrote:
On Thu, 4 Feb 2010 06:52:50 -0800 (PST), MooseFET <kensm...@rahul.net> wrote:
On Feb 3, 9:54 pm, "JosephKK"<quiettechb...@yahoo.com> wrote:
On Tue, 02 Feb 2010 11:56:24 -0600, Tim Wescott <t...@seemywebsite.com> wrote:
On Tue, 02 Feb 2010 09:47:50 -0800, Chris wrote:

The simplest way is MCU with external crystal. For 480 Hz output, the
crystal is likely to be a multiple of 3 MHz. The 12.0 MHz would be the
most common.

Is an MCU the same as a PIC?

All PICs are MCUs.  Not all MCUs are PICs.  The top contenders that I
know of are the PIC and the AVR from Atmel.  There are probably low pin-
count 8051 derivatives out there, not to mention the '430 from TI.

Intersil ought to revive the 1802 core, in a 16-pin package surrounded by
all the usual peripherals.

I would certainly like to see them again, i liked the architecture, though many did not.

If you liked the 1802, I assume you also like wacking your thumb with
a hammer.

If you want a grotesque architecture try the Fairchild 3850 uP.  I guarantee the 1802 is
sweetness and light by comparison.  And my thumbs are all perfectly safe from my several
hammers.

So you say the 1802 is less ugly than its 3 ugly sisters. Still:

LD LOW(ValueA)
PLO R3
LD HIGH(ValueA)
PHI R3
LD LOW(ValueB)
PLO R4
LD HIGH(ValueB)
PHI R4
LD LOW(ValueC)
PLO R5
LD HIGH(ValueC)
PHI R5
LDN R3
SEX R4
ADD
STN R5

Thats 16 instructions to do C=A+B where the 3 are all in random
places.
Way back when, the boss designed in the 1802 to save power. The need
for a lot of instructs meant that we had to put 3 EEPROM chips on it
to hold the code. It was in a "power up - do it - power off" sort
of application. I tried to explain at the time that a Z80L would draw
more power while it was on but it would be powered on for so much less
time that it wouldn't matter. As it was we couldn't keep the display
going while we did RS-232 or anything like that. It had to a purely
one thing at a time program.

Really. Abusing the instruction set like that to attempt to make a point?

On Wed, 03 Feb 2010 22:35:43 -0500, ehsjr <ehsjr_at_nospamverizon.net
wrote:

Use Q13 to divide by 8192.

Qn DIV BY
-----|---------
Q0 2
Q1 4
Q2 8
Q3 16
Q4 32
Q5 64
Q6 128
Q7 256
Q8 512
Q9 1024
Q10 2048
Q11 4096
Q12 8192
Q13 16384

:-)


JF