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Terry Pinnell
Guest

Sat Aug 24, 2019 8:45 pm   



Pressing the door button of my commercial wireless door bell causes the
mains-powered speaker unit in the hall to chime. Rather than buying another speaker
unit I thought I'd make a simple extension myself. I'd then get an identical chime
in my workshop.

With difficulty I was able to get access inside the unit and connected a couple of
wires in parallel with its tiny speaker, like this:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/xvvhz7pnnsdbpc2/DoorBellExtensionSketch.jpg?raw=1

I was playing with connecting that pair to a simple audio amp powering a newly
located speaker in my workshop. That's when I quickly discovered (the hard way!) an
obvious flaw in my idea. Both wires were at half mains voltage above earth. (Which
is 0V/ground for most of my circuits.)

So I now propose to isolate that with a small mains transformer. One that I have to
hand is a 240V to 18V, with respective DC ohm measurements of about 900 and 30 ohm
respectively.

Can I now safely experiment with that?

Terry, East Grinstead, UK

Helmut Wabnig
Guest

Sat Aug 24, 2019 9:45 pm   



On Sat, 24 Aug 2019 20:12:52 +0100, Terry Pinnell
<me_at_somewhere.invalid> wrote:

Quote:
Pressing the door button of my commercial wireless door bell causes the
mains-powered speaker unit in the hall to chime. Rather than buying another speaker
unit I thought I'd make a simple extension myself. I'd then get an identical chime
in my workshop.

With difficulty I was able to get access inside the unit and connected a couple of
wires in parallel with its tiny speaker, like this:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/xvvhz7pnnsdbpc2/DoorBellExtensionSketch.jpg?raw=1

I was playing with connecting that pair to a simple audio amp powering a newly
located speaker in my workshop. That's when I quickly discovered (the hard way!) an
obvious flaw in my idea. Both wires were at half mains voltage above earth. (Which
is 0V/ground for most of my circuits.)

So I now propose to isolate that with a small mains transformer. One that I have to
hand is a 240V to 18V, with respective DC ohm measurements of about 900 and 30 ohm
respectively.

Can I now safely experiment with that?

Terry, East Grinstead, UK


Anything with mains is not safe for you.

Use batteries or let it be.

w.

Terry Pinnell
Guest

Sat Aug 24, 2019 10:45 pm   



Helmut Wabnig <hwabnig@.- --- -.dotat> wrote:

Quote:
On Sat, 24 Aug 2019 20:12:52 +0100, Terry Pinnell
me_at_somewhere.invalid> wrote:

Pressing the door button of my commercial wireless door bell causes the
mains-powered speaker unit in the hall to chime. Rather than buying another speaker
unit I thought I'd make a simple extension myself. I'd then get an identical chime
in my workshop.

With difficulty I was able to get access inside the unit and connected a couple of
wires in parallel with its tiny speaker, like this:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/xvvhz7pnnsdbpc2/DoorBellExtensionSketch.jpg?raw=1

I was playing with connecting that pair to a simple audio amp powering a newly
located speaker in my workshop. That's when I quickly discovered (the hard way!) an
obvious flaw in my idea. Both wires were at half mains voltage above earth. (Which
is 0V/ground for most of my circuits.)

So I now propose to isolate that with a small mains transformer. One that I have to
hand is a 240V to 18V, with respective DC ohm measurements of about 900 and 30 ohm
respectively.

Can I now safely experiment with that?

Terry, East Grinstead, UK


Anything with mains is not safe for you.

Use batteries or let it be.

w.


Eh?

Have you ever used a transformer? In the 40 years or so that I've been building
electronics stuff, I don't think I'd have accomplished much without "mains"!

Terry, East Grinstead, UK

Jasen Betts
Guest

Sat Aug 24, 2019 11:45 pm   



On 2019-08-24, Terry Pinnell <me_at_somewhere.invalid> wrote:
Quote:
Pressing the door button of my commercial wireless door bell causes the
mains-powered speaker unit in the hall to chime. Rather than buying another speaker
unit I thought I'd make a simple extension myself. I'd then get an identical chime
in my workshop.

With difficulty I was able to get access inside the unit and connected a couple of
wires in parallel with its tiny speaker, like this:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/xvvhz7pnnsdbpc2/DoorBellExtensionSketch.jpg?raw=1


404

Quote:
I was playing with connecting that pair to a simple audio amp powering a newly
located speaker in my workshop. That's when I quickly discovered (the hard way!) an
obvious flaw in my idea. Both wires were at half mains voltage above earth. (Which
is 0V/ground for most of my circuits.)


The hard way: so they are using a capacitive dropper to power the
chime circuit?

Quote:
So I now propose to isolate that with a small mains transformer. One that I have to
hand is a 240V to 18V, with respective DC ohm measurements of about 900 and 30 ohm
respectively.


That'd work, but an audio transformer might be cheaper and more
compact, but nothing is cheaper than junkbox...

> Can I now safely experiment with that?

If the mains transformer is double insulated, then yes, if not ground
the output then it's safe, it's probabaly best to ground it in the
workshop: I seem to recall your location having some voltage difference
between ground in the house and in the workshop.

--
When I tried casting out nines I made a hash of it.


Guest

Sun Aug 25, 2019 2:45 am   



I quite qualified advice is for you to stay away from the mains. What's more, you can't just run that anywhere you want no matter where you are.

You want to extend those mains you need to know how to put pires in boxes and all that.

If you do it after all that then you can just use regular [phone wire. You should do that.

get a transformer, 1:1 would be good but rated for mains isolation just in case and wire that to the speaker. The wires from the secondary should drive another speaker. Nice thing about that is you can run those wires anywhere.

When you get to anything running off the mains you need to know how to deal with it, maybe even run conduit. You obviously don't and I figure it is better not to kill yourself.

Digikey deals there I think, they can probably hook you up with the transformer for a few bucks. If not you got somebody there.

Just stay away from the mains. I work on that stuff sometimes and I have seen wires arc and spark, and even burn. I have been shocked pretty good, but you got 230 over there.

No matter what, stay away, you could kill yourself or burn the place down.

Terry Pinnell
Guest

Sun Aug 25, 2019 8:45 am   



Jasen Betts <jasen_at_xnet.co.nz> wrote:

Quote:
On 2019-08-24, Terry Pinnell <me_at_somewhere.invalid> wrote:
Pressing the door button of my commercial wireless door bell causes the
mains-powered speaker unit in the hall to chime. Rather than buying another speaker
unit I thought I'd make a simple extension myself. I'd then get an identical chime
in my workshop.

With difficulty I was able to get access inside the unit and connected a couple of
wires in parallel with its tiny speaker, like this:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/xvvhz7pnnsdbpc2/DoorBellExtensionSketch.jpg?raw=1

404

I was playing with connecting that pair to a simple audio amp powering a newly
located speaker in my workshop. That's when I quickly discovered (the hard way!) an
obvious flaw in my idea. Both wires were at half mains voltage above earth. (Which
is 0V/ground for most of my circuits.)

The hard way: so they are using a capacitive dropper to power the
chime circuit?

So I now propose to isolate that with a small mains transformer. One that I have to
hand is a 240V to 18V, with respective DC ohm measurements of about 900 and 30 ohm
respectively.

That'd work, but an audio transformer might be cheaper and more
compact, but nothing is cheaper than junkbox...

Can I now safely experiment with that?

If the mains transformer is double insulated, then yes, if not ground
the output then it's safe, it's probabaly best to ground it in the
workshop: I seem to recall your location having some voltage difference
between ground in the house and in the workshop.


Thanks Jason, that's helpful. Sorry about the 404. Not sure of cause but have
re-posted and now looks fine here.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/wtgfyyfeo3x5ls1/Sketpg?raw=1

Re capacitive dropper. Yes, but unsurprising in a unit like this? Essentially a
mains plug with some extras. After all, its innards are plainly not intended to be
accessed by electronics hobbyists ;-)

I hadn't finalised my design for the add-on. I was in the process of bread boarding
a basic LM386 audio amp, with an independent (mains-powered) 12V DC supply. I
suspected that merely paralleling to the remote speaker would reduce audio volume
from both of them. That's when I was unceremoniously reminded that my basic
assumption was loose thinking! (Namely, that because the existing wires were to a 16
ohm miniature speaker, with a DMM-measured output during chiming of 3-4V AC, I could
safely wire them up to any old DC circuit.)

Terry, East Grinstead, UK

Helmut Wabnig
Guest

Sun Aug 25, 2019 1:45 pm   



On Sat, 24 Aug 2019 22:39:37 +0100, Terry Pinnell
<me_at_somewhere.invalid> wrote:

Quote:
Helmut Wabnig <hwabnig@.- --- -.dotat> wrote:

On Sat, 24 Aug 2019 20:12:52 +0100, Terry Pinnell
me_at_somewhere.invalid> wrote:

Pressing the door button of my commercial wireless door bell causes the
mains-powered speaker unit in the hall to chime. Rather than buying another speaker
unit I thought I'd make a simple extension myself. I'd then get an identical chime
in my workshop.

With difficulty I was able to get access inside the unit and connected a couple of
wires in parallel with its tiny speaker, like this:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/xvvhz7pnnsdbpc2/DoorBellExtensionSketch.jpg?raw=1

I was playing with connecting that pair to a simple audio amp powering a newly
located speaker in my workshop. That's when I quickly discovered (the hard way!) an
obvious flaw in my idea. Both wires were at half mains voltage above earth. (Which
is 0V/ground for most of my circuits.)

So I now propose to isolate that with a small mains transformer. One that I have to
hand is a 240V to 18V, with respective DC ohm measurements of about 900 and 30 ohm
respectively.

Can I now safely experiment with that?

Terry, East Grinstead, UK


Anything with mains is not safe for you.

Use batteries or let it be.

w.

Eh?

Have you ever used a transformer? In the 40 years or so that I've been building
electronics stuff, I don't think I'd have accomplished much without "mains"!

Terry, East Grinstead, UK


Why are you asking stupid questions
when you gave 40 years of experience.

Your question is that stupid, that I issued a warning
rather than an answer.

w.

whit3rd
Guest

Sun Aug 25, 2019 7:45 pm   



On Saturday, August 24, 2019 at 12:12:56 PM UTC-7, Terry Pinnell wrote:
Quote:
Pressing the door button of my commercial wireless door bell causes the
mains-powered speaker unit in the hall to chime. Rather than buying another speaker
unit I thought I'd make a simple extension ...

I was playing with connecting that pair to a simple audio amp powering a newly
located speaker in my workshop. That's when I quickly discovered (the hard way!) an
obvious flaw in my idea. Both wires were at half mains voltage above earth.


Easiest way out of that would be an optoisolator solution (there are
dual isolators that can be used with some feedback to transmit analog
signals). Or, using either a relay or digital optoisolator, you can trigger
a sound-playback of your choice (there are a number of battery toys
at the local dollar store that do sound effects). Heck, there's greeting
cards that can be programmed to replicate your favorite annunciator's
sound.

When light-dependent players were built into Christmas-y coffee mugs, an
EE of my acquaintance noted that she could 'fix that' with her microwave oven.

Rheilly Phoull
Guest

Mon Aug 26, 2019 2:45 am   



On 26/08/2019 1:58 am, whit3rd wrote:
Quote:
On Saturday, August 24, 2019 at 12:12:56 PM UTC-7, Terry Pinnell wrote:
Pressing the door button of my commercial wireless door bell causes the
mains-powered speaker unit in the hall to chime. Rather than buying another speaker
unit I thought I'd make a simple extension ...

I was playing with connecting that pair to a simple audio amp powering a newly
located speaker in my workshop. That's when I quickly discovered (the hard way!) an
obvious flaw in my idea. Both wires were at half mains voltage above earth.

Easiest way out of that would be an optoisolator solution (there are
dual isolators that can be used with some feedback to transmit analog
signals). Or, using either a relay or digital optoisolator, you can trigger
a sound-playback of your choice (there are a number of battery toys
at the local dollar store that do sound effects). Heck, there's greeting
cards that can be programmed to replicate your favorite annunciator's
sound.

When light-dependent players were built into Christmas-y coffee mugs, an
EE of my acquaintance noted that she could 'fix that' with her microwave oven.


Yep the old opto isolater trick, that's your answer to the prob.

Phil Allison
Guest

Mon Aug 26, 2019 3:45 am   



Terry Pinnell wrote:

Quote:
Pressing the door button of my commercial wireless door bell causes
the mains-powered speaker unit in the hall to chime. Rather than buying
another speaker unit I thought I'd make a simple extension myself.
I'd then get an identical chime in my workshop.





** By far the cheapest and easiest solution is a second door bell unit - set to use the same coder as the first

What you are attempting is unsafe, expensive and trouble prone.

IOW completely nuts.


...... Phil


Guest

Mon Aug 26, 2019 5:45 pm   



>What you are attempting is unsafe, expensive and trouble prone.

For him.

If I remember right, for the hard of hearing they used to have a doodad you stick on your phone and when it rings it lights a light. Probably can't get them anymore but the thing is while I could do it right dealing with the mains, I doubt the OP can.

So the best way to proceed is to detect the noise, right at the box. A cheap piezo mic will do. It can drive whatever, even pick up the sound and put it on the wire.

Using the mains, well first of all you got a whole bunch more rules dealing with that. Second of all you still need something to feed off it. This is all easier with low voltage.

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