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What is inside an LED "starter"

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William Gothberg
Guest

Wed Dec 19, 2018 10:45 pm   



If it's an LED tube that takes live and neutral from one end, then the starter needs to be a short, not open circuit.


On Wed, 19 Dec 2018 17:30:39 -0000, Brian Gaff <briang1_at_blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

Quote:
Or put in a dummy to look right but it is in fact just a cover with nothing
inside.
Brian


William Gothberg
Guest

Wed Dec 19, 2018 10:45 pm   



Not expensive enough to bother. I often buy brand new caps on Ebay for peanuts (just got a couple to repair 2 switched mode PSUs - one for a monitor and one for an insect zapper). Used ones wouldn't be worth much.


On Wed, 19 Dec 2018 17:32:42 -0000, Brian Gaff <briang1_at_blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

Quote:
What about the capacitor though. Maybe we could take them out and flog them.
Brian


%
Guest

Wed Dec 19, 2018 10:45 pm   



On 2018-12-19 1:47 p.m., William Gothberg wrote:
Quote:
Not expensive enough to bother.  I often buy brand new caps on Ebay for
peanuts (just got a couple to repair 2 switched mode PSUs - one for a
monitor and one for an insect zapper).  Used ones wouldn't be worth much.


On Wed, 19 Dec 2018 17:32:42 -0000, Brian Gaff
briang1_at_blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

What about the capacitor though. Maybe we could take them out and flog
them.
 Brian


you crossposted

William Gothberg
Guest

Wed Dec 19, 2018 11:45 pm   



On Wed, 19 Dec 2018 21:20:37 -0000, % <persent_at_gmail.com> wrote:

Quote:
On 2018-12-19 1:47 p.m., William Gothberg wrote:
Not expensive enough to bother. I often buy brand new caps on Ebay for
peanuts (just got a couple to repair 2 switched mode PSUs - one for a
monitor and one for an insect zapper). Used ones wouldn't be worth much.


On Wed, 19 Dec 2018 17:32:42 -0000, Brian Gaff
briang1_at_blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

What about the capacitor though. Maybe we could take them out and flog
them.
Brian


you crossposted


If we weren't meant to crosspost, the function wouldn't exists on newsservers.

William Gothberg
Guest

Thu Dec 20, 2018 4:45 am   



On Thu, 20 Dec 2018 02:40:17 -0000, Clare Snyder <clare_at_snyder.on.ca> wrote:

Quote:
On Wed, 19 Dec 2018 14:35:02 -0000, "William Gothberg" <"William
Gothberg"@internet.co.is> wrote:

On Wed, 19 Dec 2018 14:30:44 -0000, William Gothberg <"William Gothberg"@internet.co.is> wrote:

On Wed, 19 Dec 2018 14:23:48 -0000, William Gothberg <"William Gothberg"@internet.co.is> wrote:

On Wed, 19 Dec 2018 12:51:53 -0000, Art Todesco <actodesco_at_yahoo.com> wrote:

On 12/19/2018 7:35 AM, William Gothberg wrote:
On Wed, 19 Dec 2018 12:18:54 -0000, Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa_at_gmail.com
wrote:

William Gothberg <"William Gothberg"@internet.co.is> wrote

Those fake starters people put into fluorescent fittings when they
put in
an LED tube.... what's inside?

A bit of wire between the pins.

An LED tube draws power from the two ends, I looked inside one of my
tubes
and the two pins at each end are shorted together.

They don't all do it the same way.

The LED PSU takes power from both ends if you see what I mean, it
expects
live at one end and neutral at the other. So why on earth would you
need
anything in the starter, even if you left the ballast in?

Because the simple bimetallic strip starters have the pins
on the starter connected initially and not connected
when it warms up due to the current between the pins.

Surely it's best to have the starter open circuit, i.e. just remove it.

Some do work like that.

Does it perhaps in some way negate the inductive nature of the
ballast to
be nicer to the LED PSU?

No it does not. So its better, but not as easy, to disconnect the
ballast as
well.

The properly made LED tubes are connected live at one end and neutral at
the other. You just remove the starter, and the LEDs operate in series
with the ballast (or directly to the mains if you can be bothered
opening the casing and shorting/removing the ballast).

So the tubes where they have live and neutral on the same end, require
supplying a fake starter instead of just removing it, surely an
unnecessary extra expense. The only reason I can find for making them
like this is some daft safety regulation about having live and neutral
at opposite ends. Better insulation required to meet safety standards
incase you grab live and neutral with your two hands? Surely either the
casing of the LED tube is metal, which means you can't get a different
voltage on each hand, or plastic, which means it won't conduct power to
you.
I just bought some LED 4' tubes that can be wired any way you want. I
don't know the internal circuitry, but I do plan to dissect one to find
out. These can be powered from one end (either one), both ends and,
when powering from both ends, the pins can be shunted or not. There
seems to be no combination that doesn't work!

I can think of a way it might be connected, but please look inside to satisfy our curiosity!

Kinda like a bridge rectifier but with 4 inputs instead of 2 - any pin of the tube being positive goes through a positive diode, any pin being negative goes through a negative diode (as in connected backwards).

You know, a diagram would be easier: https://www.dropbox.com/s/clfblkmb6pyqyl8/tube.jpg?dl=0

In fact they could just use two bridge rectifiers already in packages, and connect one to one end of the tube and one to the other, with the output of both connected to the PSU bulk capacitor. This would make the circuit I drew above.

I think in fact my above circuit should work fine without removing any traditional ballast or starter. The trouble is electronic fittings might try to give a high voltage kick to start the fluorescent tube and damage the LED PSU.

What do the instructions with your LED tube say about disconnecting ballasts and electronic systems and so forth in the fitting?
You expect a real answer?


Why not?

[crosspost fixed, so as other people can see the conversation, fuckwit]

Daniel60
Guest

Thu Dec 20, 2018 8:45 am   



Peeler wrote on 20/12/2018 6:39 AM:
Quote:
On Wed, 19 Dec 2018 17:30:39 -0000, Brainless & Daft, the notorious,
troll-feeding senile idiot, blathered

Or put in a dummy to look right but it is in fact just a cover with nothing
inside.
Brainless

...says the troll-feeding dummy to the trolling dummy! <BG

Does that make one "the troll-feeding dummy" and the other "the
trolling-eating dummy"?? ;-P

--
Daniel

Peeler
Guest

Thu Dec 20, 2018 11:45 am   



On Thu, 20 Dec 2018 18:12:35 +1100, Daniel60 wrote:

Quote:
Or put in a dummy to look right but it is in fact just a cover with nothing
inside.
Brainless

...says the troll-feeding dummy to the trolling dummy! <BG

Does that make one "the troll-feeding dummy" and the other "the
trolling-eating dummy"?? ;-P


Kinda, I guess.

Diesel
Guest

Thu Feb 21, 2019 4:45 am   



"William Gothberg" <"William Gothberg"@internet.co.is>
news:op.zuaephp9o5piw3_at_desktop-ga2mpl8.lan Wed, 19 Dec 2018 20:47:31
GMT in alt.home.repair, wrote:

Quote:
Not expensive enough to bother. I often buy brand new caps on
Ebay for peanuts (just got a couple to repair 2 switched mode PSUs
- one for a monitor and one for an insect zapper). Used ones
wouldn't be worth much.


Ahh. What is your preferred desoldering method? Have you used any of
the new SMP quikchip stuff yet?


--
Happy Happy Joy Joy

Commander Kinsey
Guest

Thu Feb 21, 2019 4:45 pm   



On Thu, 21 Feb 2019 02:45:48 -0000, Diesel <nobody_at_haph.org> wrote:

Quote:
"William Gothberg" <"William Gothberg"@internet.co.is
news:op.zuaephp9o5piw3_at_desktop-ga2mpl8.lan Wed, 19 Dec 2018 20:47:31
GMT in alt.home.repair, wrote:

Not expensive enough to bother. I often buy brand new caps on
Ebay for peanuts (just got a couple to repair 2 switched mode PSUs
- one for a monitor and one for an insect zapper). Used ones
wouldn't be worth much.

Ahh. What is your preferred desoldering method? Have you used any of
the new SMP quikchip stuff yet?


I ain't a pro solderer. I do nowt special. I can desolder and resolder surface mount LEDs though.

Diesel
Guest

Fri Mar 01, 2019 5:45 am   



"Commander Kinsey" <CFKinsey_at_military.org.jp>
news:op.zxki3ch6wdg98l_at_desktop-ga2mpl8.lan Thu, 21 Feb 2019 15:39:02
GMT in alt.home.repair, wrote:

Quote:
On Thu, 21 Feb 2019 02:45:48 -0000, Diesel <nobody_at_haph.org
wrote:

"William Gothberg" <"William Gothberg"@internet.co.is
news:op.zuaephp9o5piw3_at_desktop-ga2mpl8.lan Wed, 19 Dec 2018
20:47:31 GMT in alt.home.repair, wrote:

Not expensive enough to bother. I often buy brand new caps on
Ebay for peanuts (just got a couple to repair 2 switched mode
PSUs - one for a monitor and one for an insect zapper). Used
ones wouldn't be worth much.

Ahh. What is your preferred desoldering method? Have you used any
of the new SMP quikchip stuff yet?

I ain't a pro solderer. I do nowt special. I can desolder and
resolder surface mount LEDs though.


That's touching. I can desolder two usb ports in under a minute without
damaging the board or the ports. I could have gotten the other two off
the donor board within another 30-45 seconds or so.


--
Useless Invention: Leather cutlery.

Peeler
Guest

Fri Mar 01, 2019 12:45 pm   



On Fri, 1 Mar 2019 04:23:22 -0000 (UTC), Diesel, another mentally deficient,
troll-feeding, senile idiot, driveled:


Quote:


That's touching. I can desolder two usb ports in under a minute without
damaging the board or the ports. I could have gotten the other two off
the donor board within another 30-45 seconds or so.


You obviously can suck him off faster than any of the other seniles here,
even if it takes you over two months until you make up your mind, senile
idiot!

Peeler
Guest

Fri Mar 01, 2019 12:45 pm   



On Thu, 21 Feb 2019 02:45:48 -0000 (UTC), Diesel, another mentally retarded,
notorious, troll-feeding, senile IDIOT, blathered again:

Quote:
"William Gothberg" <"William Gothberg"@internet.co.is
news:op.zuaephp9o5piw3_at_desktop-ga2mpl8.lan Wed, 19 Dec 2018 20:47:31
GMT in alt.home.repair, wrote:

Not expensive enough to bother. I often buy brand new caps on
Ebay for peanuts (just got a couple to repair 2 switched mode PSUs
- one for a monitor and one for an insect zapper). Used ones
wouldn't be worth much.

Ahh. What is your preferred desoldering method? Have you used any of
the new SMP quikchip stuff yet?


Reviving an over two months old thread, just to be able to suck off that
abnormal troll again, you demented, senile piece of shit?

Art Todesco
Guest

Sat Mar 02, 2019 8:45 pm   



On 12/19/2018 9:23 AM, William Gothberg wrote:
Quote:
On Wed, 19 Dec 2018 12:51:53 -0000, Art Todesco <actodesco_at_yahoo.com
wrote:

On 12/19/2018 7:35 AM, William Gothberg wrote:
On Wed, 19 Dec 2018 12:18:54 -0000, Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa_at_gmail.com
wrote:

William Gothberg <"William Gothberg"@internet.co.is> wrote

Those fake starters people put into fluorescent fittings when they
put in
an LED tube.... what's inside?

A bit of wire between the pins.

An LED tube draws power from the two ends, I looked inside one of my
tubes
and the two pins at each end are shorted together.

They don't all do it the same way.

The LED PSU takes power from both ends if you see what I mean, it
expects
live at one end and neutral at the other.  So why on earth would you
need
anything in the starter, even if you left the ballast in?

Because the simple bimetallic strip starters have the pins
on the starter connected initially and not connected
when it warms up due to the current between the pins.

Surely it's best to have the starter open circuit, i.e. just remove
it.

Some do work like that.

Does it perhaps in some way negate the inductive nature of the
ballast to
be nicer to the LED PSU?

No it does not. So its better, but not as easy, to disconnect the
ballast as
well.

The properly made LED tubes are connected live at one end and neutral at
the other.  You just remove the starter, and the LEDs operate in series
with the ballast (or directly to the mains if you can be bothered
opening the casing and shorting/removing the ballast).

So the tubes where they have live and neutral on the same end, require
supplying a fake starter instead of just removing it, surely an
unnecessary extra expense.  The only reason I can find for making them
like this is some daft safety regulation about having live and neutral
at opposite ends.  Better insulation required to meet safety standards
incase you grab live and neutral with your two hands?  Surely either the
casing of the LED tube is metal, which means you can't get a different
voltage on each hand, or plastic, which means it won't conduct power to
you.
I just bought some LED 4' tubes that can be wired any way you want.  I
don't know the internal circuitry, but I do plan to dissect one to find
out.  These can be powered from one end (either one), both ends and,
when powering from both ends, the pins can be shunted or not.  There
seems to be no combination that doesn't work!

I can think of a way it might be connected, but please look inside to
satisfy our curiosity!

Kinda like a bridge rectifier but with 4 inputs instead of 2 - any pin
of the tube being positive goes through a positive diode, any pin being
negative goes through a negative diode (as in connected backwards).

You know, a diagram would be easier:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/clfblkmb6pyqyl8/tube.jpg?dl=0
Sorry this took sooooo long, but I just reverse engineered it.


Here's the way it is. There are 2 full wave rectifiers. The DC outputs
are connected together; + of each and - of each. These feed the
converter which is the standard chip, pulsing a transformer. The output
of this is 1/2 wave rectified, filtered and goes to the string of LEDs.
Now back to the 2 full wave rectifiers (FWR). One input to the 1st FWR
comes from a pin on one end of the tube and the other input to the 1st
FWR comes a pin on the other end. The 2nd FWR is wired the same way,
except it uses the unused pins on the ends of the tube. For some reason
there is a 5 ohm resistor in 3 of the 4 inputs to the FWRs. The 4th is
direct connected. But if you trace is out, you can supply 120 VAC to
any 2 pins and it works. You can even power from one end and short the
pins on the other end and it still works. Clever!

Andrew Gabriel
Guest

Sat Mar 02, 2019 9:45 pm   



On 02/03/2019 19:20, Art Todesco wrote:
Quote:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/clfblkmb6pyqyl8/tube.jpg?dl=0
Sorry this took sooooo long, but I just reverse engineered it.

Here's the way it is.  There are 2 full wave rectifiers.  The DC outputs
are connected together; + of each and - of each.  These feed the
converter which is the standard chip, pulsing a transformer.  The output
of this is 1/2 wave rectified, filtered and goes to the string of LEDs.
Now back to the 2 full wave rectifiers (FWR).  One input to the 1st FWR
comes from a pin on one end of the tube and the other input to the 1st
FWR comes a pin on the other end.  The 2nd FWR is wired the same way,
except it uses the unused pins on the ends of the tube.  For some reason
there is a 5 ohm resistor in 3 of the 4 inputs to the FWRs.  The 4th is
direct connected.  But if you trace is out, you can supply 120 VAC to
any 2 pins and it works.  You can even power from one end and short the
pins on the other end and it still works.  Clever!


The resistors are to limit the inrush current when initially charging
the completely discharged capacitor at switch-on.

--
Andrew Gabriel

Diesel
Guest

Sun Mar 03, 2019 5:45 am   



Peeler <troll_at_trap.invalid> news:Sb8eE.9137$Apg.4459_at_usenetxs.com
Fri, 01 Mar 2019 10:53:55 GMT in alt.home.repair, wrote:

Quote:
On Fri, 1 Mar 2019 04:23:22 -0000 (UTC), Diesel, another mentally
deficient, troll-feeding, senile idiot, driveled:




That's touching. I can desolder two usb ports in under a minute
without damaging the board or the ports. I could have gotten the
other two off the donor board within another 30-45 seconds or so.

You obviously can suck him off faster than any of the other
seniles here, even if it takes you over two months until you make
up your mind, senile idiot!


I lost you at the word desolder didn't I? It's the opposite of
soldering. I know, you'll need to lookup the word soldering now. Sorry,
it's for the best. Anything to improve your knowledge, right?


--
'Montana --- At least our cows are sane!'

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