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whit3rd
Guest

Fri Jan 17, 2020 2:45 am   



On Thursday, January 16, 2020 at 2:47:57 PM UTC-8, Michael Terrell wrote:
Quote:
On Thursday, January 16, 2020 at 1:54:51 PM UTC-5, default wrote:

... I remember a
documentary about steel recycling where they were using carbon arc
furnaces to melt and make steel from ferrous waste.

Do you have any idea how much more is needed every year? Remelt couldn't begin to supply enough.

Would you trust a bridge bout of cheap remelt?


You have no choice, if you aren't doing engineering specification and inspecting the alloys.
There's strength specs, and structural steel includes the lowest grades (which is OK
when you use a lot of it). Soft steel bends rather than breaking, that's a virtue.

But yes, remelt cannot supply enough steel, there's still mountains of ore in Australia, furnaces in
Korea, Germany, Poland etc. and plumes of exhausted CO2. The coal for smelting ore
to iron is high-grade (low sulphur) stuff, converted first to coke for purity. To my knowledge,
the only substitute for coal is traditional Swedish steel made with charcoal (still carbon, of course).

Jasen Betts
Guest

Fri Jan 17, 2020 8:45 pm   



On 2020-01-16, Michael Terrell <terrell.michael.a_at_gmail.com> wrote:
Quote:
On Wednesday, January 15, 2020 at 10:55:52 AM UTC-5, amdx wrote:

Yes, the only increase my admittedly short search found was W. Virginia
where jobs increased 12.7% during 2017 and 2018. The problem, coal is
fighting the low cost of natural gas because of the increase in fracking.

Coal is still needed to manufacture steel.


coal is not needed there are other processes such as direct reduction
that can be fueled with hydrogen or natural gas.


--
Jasen.

whit3rd
Guest

Mon Jan 20, 2020 6:45 am   



On Friday, January 17, 2020 at 11:01:39 AM UTC-8, Jasen Betts wrote:
Quote:
On 2020-01-16, Michael Terrell <terrell.michael.a_at_gmail.com> wrote:

Coal is still needed to manufacture steel.

coal is not needed there are other processes such as direct reduction
that can be fueled with hydrogen or natural gas.


Are you sure? What kind of container holds a few tons of ore and enough hydrogen
or 'natural gas' to reduce it? Doesn't hydrogen attack the oxides in firebrick?

default
Guest

Mon Jan 20, 2020 2:45 pm   



On Sun, 19 Jan 2020 21:39:17 -0800 (PST), whit3rd <whit3rd_at_gmail.com>
wrote:

Quote:
On Friday, January 17, 2020 at 11:01:39 AM UTC-8, Jasen Betts wrote:
On 2020-01-16, Michael Terrell <terrell.michael.a_at_gmail.com> wrote:

Coal is still needed to manufacture steel.

coal is not needed there are other processes such as direct reduction
that can be fueled with hydrogen or natural gas.

Are you sure? What kind of container holds a few tons of ore and enough hydrogen
or 'natural gas' to reduce it? Doesn't hydrogen attack the oxides in firebrick?


“The solution that we have opted for is to have a completely fossil
fuel free value chain for steel production,” he says. The aim is to
replace imported coke and coal coming from oversees and instead use
hydrogen produced from fossil-free electricity. Hydrogen will then be
used as the main reductant to reduce iron ore and produce metallic
iron. And this process will only emit water vapor instead of carbon
dioxide.” If the new process were applied to all of Sweden’s steel
making industry, the nation’s carbon emissions could be reduced by
10%, Görnerup says.

https://cleantechnica.com/2018/05/14/hydrogen-from-renewables-could-make-emissions-free-steel-possible/

More:

https://www.energy.gov/sites/prod/files/2018/08/f54/fcto-h2-scale-kickoff-2018-19-green.pdf

whit3rd
Guest

Thu Jan 23, 2020 6:45 pm   



On Monday, January 20, 2020 at 5:31:45 AM UTC-8, default wrote:
Quote:
On Sun, 19 Jan 2020 21:39:17 -0800 (PST), whit3rd <whit3rd_at_gmail.com
wrote:

On Friday, January 17, 2020 at 11:01:39 AM UTC-8, Jasen Betts wrote:
On 2020-01-16, Michael Terrell <terrell.michael.a_at_gmail.com> wrote:

Coal is still needed to manufacture steel.

coal is not needed there are other processes

Are you sure? What kind of container holds a few tons of ore and enough hydrogen
or 'natural gas' to reduce it? Doesn't hydrogen attack the oxides in firebrick?

“The solution that we have opted for is to have a completely fossil
fuel free value chain for steel production,”

https://cleantechnica.com/2018/05/14/hydrogen-from-renewables-could-make-emissions-free-steel-possible/

More:

https://www.energy.gov/sites/prod/files/2018/08/f54/fcto-h2-scale-kickoff-2018-19-green.pdf


yeah, but... the temperatures are VERY high, how do
you keep the H2 pressure up and ensure container integrity?

The process flow, too, seems to require very finely divided ore input, because the particle surface
is the only reaction site, and the ore heating is not mentioned, nor slag separation.
It seems the first pilot plant will have some kinks to work out, when it's starts in a few months. The
engineering for full-scale uses isn't projected this decade, nor next.

default
Guest

Fri Jan 24, 2020 1:45 pm   



On Thu, 23 Jan 2020 09:05:45 -0800 (PST), whit3rd <whit3rd_at_gmail.com>
wrote:

Quote:
On Monday, January 20, 2020 at 5:31:45 AM UTC-8, default wrote:
On Sun, 19 Jan 2020 21:39:17 -0800 (PST), whit3rd <whit3rd_at_gmail.com
wrote:

On Friday, January 17, 2020 at 11:01:39 AM UTC-8, Jasen Betts wrote:
On 2020-01-16, Michael Terrell <terrell.michael.a_at_gmail.com> wrote:

Coal is still needed to manufacture steel.

coal is not needed there are other processes

Are you sure? What kind of container holds a few tons of ore and enough hydrogen
or 'natural gas' to reduce it? Doesn't hydrogen attack the oxides in firebrick?

“The solution that we have opted for is to have a completely fossil
fuel free value chain for steel production,”

https://cleantechnica.com/2018/05/14/hydrogen-from-renewables-could-make-emissions-free-steel-possible/

More:

https://www.energy.gov/sites/prod/files/2018/08/f54/fcto-h2-scale-kickoff-2018-19-green.pdf

yeah, but... the temperatures are VERY high, how do
you keep the H2 pressure up and ensure container integrity?

The process flow, too, seems to require very finely divided ore input, because the particle surface
is the only reaction site, and the ore heating is not mentioned, nor slag separation.
It seems the first pilot plant will have some kinks to work out, when it's starts in a few months. The
engineering for full-scale uses isn't projected this decade, nor next.


default
Guest

Fri Jan 24, 2020 2:45 pm   



On Thu, 16 Jan 2020 10:42:28 -0800 (PST), Michael Terrell
<terrell.michael.a_at_gmail.com> wrote:

Quote:
On Thursday, January 16, 2020 at 8:08:48 AM UTC-5, default wrote:
On Wed, 15 Jan 2020 14:54:09 -0800 (PST), George Herold
gherold_at_teachspin.com> wrote:

On Tuesday, January 14, 2020 at 1:06:11 PM UTC-5, default wrote:
On Tue, 14 Jan 2020 07:41:12 -0800 (PST), George Herold
gherold_at_teachspin.com> wrote:

On Monday, January 13, 2020 at 10:32:05 PM UTC-5, default wrote:
On Mon, 13 Jan 2020 14:55:57 -0800 (PST), George Herold
gherold_at_teachspin.com> wrote:

Yup,
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-49591143
+1 for DT

George H.

I think economics will win out

My cuz was bequeathed this 6 family apartment house and like all
landlords was bitching and moaning about (among other things) the
tenants who'd leave the stairway lights on 24/7 (there were large
windows to let light in).

I got his electric bills out and showed him what the incandescent
bulbs were costing him (~$300/year versus LEDs <$40 a year) and nary a
peep (on that topic) again. Hardly pays to have an electrician to
install a timer.


Right let the market decide.
in spite of Dog Turd's hazy
understanding of... well... everything.

Personally I like the idea of their availability, I have an incubator
that uses them and they are damned handy when used as a ballast.
Resistance changes a factor of >10 from cold to hot.

Check this baby out:
https://www.passdiy.com/projects/images/content/zenlite_24.png

Full schematic:
https://www.passdiy.com/project/amplifiers/zen-variations-1

Nice, I've seen these Zen amps before... (I'm a class A type of guy.)
Is this meant as an active load to test amps and such?
(make sure the heatsink is big enough.)

From what I gather, they are using the lamps as a current
regulator/resistor with no need for a heat sink.
Oh I meant a heat sink for the FET.

In the ancient past, teletypes used purpose-built tungsten filament
bulbs as a current regulating ballast. They'd glow dimly when in use.
I used them for AGC in a Wien bridge oscillator. Good fun.
GH
George H.

I'd seen the circuit for that and the implementation when I took apart
one of the audio oscillators we used in the Navy.

"Like the other HP oscillators, the HP200A is a Wien bridge
resistance-tuned audio oscillator using the light-bulb stabilized
negative feedback circuit designed by William Hewlett while doing
graduate work at Stanford. (Patent #2268872. Application filed in 1939
and granted in 1942)."

https://people.ohio.edu/postr/bapix/HP200A.htm
https://people.ohio.edu/postr/bapix/HP200C.htm

The TS-382 series were military versions in transit cases. They had a vibration reed frequency meter to display 60 Hz and 400Hz. The insides were protected for Jungle use, and the one I have, (TS-382/F)has heat strips to drive moisture out of the cabinet.


I remember those from navy ET-A school. They had two resonant reeds,
for 40 HZ and 400 HZ.

In the field we had almost all commercial equipment and not the
Army-Navy near-indestructible versions of test gear. We did get one
O'scope, big, heavy thing, that had among it's design requirements
that it be able to fall from a height of 5 feet onto concrete and
remain in calibration and operating condition. There was some talk of
testing that, but I don't think anyone did; and I think the concrete
would suffer if it had been.

default
Guest

Fri Jan 24, 2020 2:45 pm   



On Thu, 23 Jan 2020 09:05:45 -0800 (PST), whit3rd <whit3rd_at_gmail.com>
wrote:

Quote:
On Monday, January 20, 2020 at 5:31:45 AM UTC-8, default wrote:
On Sun, 19 Jan 2020 21:39:17 -0800 (PST), whit3rd <whit3rd_at_gmail.com
wrote:

On Friday, January 17, 2020 at 11:01:39 AM UTC-8, Jasen Betts wrote:
On 2020-01-16, Michael Terrell <terrell.michael.a_at_gmail.com> wrote:

Coal is still needed to manufacture steel.

coal is not needed there are other processes

Are you sure? What kind of container holds a few tons of ore and enough hydrogen
or 'natural gas' to reduce it? Doesn't hydrogen attack the oxides in firebrick?

“The solution that we have opted for is to have a completely fossil
fuel free value chain for steel production,”

https://cleantechnica.com/2018/05/14/hydrogen-from-renewables-could-make-emissions-free-steel-possible/

More:

https://www.energy.gov/sites/prod/files/2018/08/f54/fcto-h2-scale-kickoff-2018-19-green.pdf

yeah, but... the temperatures are VERY high, how do
you keep the H2 pressure up and ensure container integrity?

The process flow, too, seems to require very finely divided ore input, because the particle surface
is the only reaction site, and the ore heating is not mentioned, nor slag separation.
It seems the first pilot plant will have some kinks to work out, when it's starts in a few months. The
engineering for full-scale uses isn't projected this decade, nor next.


Those are just engineering concerns.

In grammar school I'd generate hydrogen with lye, aluminum foil and a
little water. You get a vigorous exothermic reaction and hydrogen
(along with some water vapor and sodium) I'd bubble the gas from the
generator through some water to cool it, or it would burst the
balloons I was filling.

We'd send balloons aloft with home-made flares and fuses into the
night. Great fun. The balloons would drift out over the Hudson river
and be miles away before they burned with a big sodium flare and a
"whump" sound seconds later.

What was unique, or seemed so, was the temperature of a hydrogen flame
in air. With a glass tube drawn to a point, a flame the size of a pin
head would melt the edges of the tubing. That, and how easy it was to
light off compared to other fuels/vapors seemed amazing.

I told some idiot at work about my childhood experiments and shortly
after heard on the news where someone was putting aluminum foil lye
and water in screw top bottles and letting them blow up. It was
"under investigation."

Without the sodium in the home-made hydrogen, the flame is nearly
impossible to see in anything but a dark room. With gas
chromatographs, we had at the place I worked, they'd check the
ignition of flame ionization detectors. with a thick watch glass and
look for condensate to tell if the flame was lit. (the detector block
was electrically heated, so heat couldn't be an indication for
ignition)

default
Guest

Fri Jan 24, 2020 3:45 pm   



On Fri, 24 Jan 2020 08:07:37 -0500, default <default_at_defaulter.net>
wrote:

Quote:

I remember those from navy ET-A school. They had two resonant reeds,
for 40 HZ and 400 HZ.


should have been 60 and 400 HZ

Michael Terrell
Guest

Sat Jan 25, 2020 1:45 pm   



On Friday, January 24, 2020 at 8:07:41 AM UTC-5, default wrote:
Quote:

On Thu, 16 Jan 2020 10:42:28 -0800 (PST), Michael Terrell wrote:

The TS-382 series were military versions in transit cases. They had a vibration reed frequency meter to display 60 Hz and 400Hz. The insides were protected for Jungle use, and the one I have, (TS-382/F)has heat strips to drive moisture out of the cabinet.

I remember those from navy ET-A school. They had two resonant reeds,
for 40 HZ and 400 HZ.


I've never seen one for 40 Hz. Only 60Hz or 60Hz and 400Hz.

George Herold
Guest

Sun Jan 26, 2020 10:45 pm   



On Saturday, January 25, 2020 at 7:04:53 AM UTC-5, Michael Terrell wrote:
Quote:
On Friday, January 24, 2020 at 8:07:41 AM UTC-5, default wrote:

On Thu, 16 Jan 2020 10:42:28 -0800 (PST), Michael Terrell wrote:

The TS-382 series were military versions in transit cases. They had a vibration reed frequency meter to display 60 Hz and 400Hz. The insides were protected for Jungle use, and the one I have, (TS-382/F)has heat strips to drive moisture out of the cabinet.

I remember those from navy ET-A school. They had two resonant reeds,
for 40 HZ and 400 HZ.


I've never seen one for 40 Hz. Only 60Hz or 60Hz and 400Hz.


Niagara Falls use to send out 25 Hz power.. (maybe three phase,
but I couldn't find a reference.)

George H.

default
Guest

Sun Jan 26, 2020 11:45 pm   



On Sun, 26 Jan 2020 13:00:49 -0800 (PST), George Herold
<gherold_at_teachspin.com> wrote:

Quote:
On Saturday, January 25, 2020 at 7:04:53 AM UTC-5, Michael Terrell wrote:
On Friday, January 24, 2020 at 8:07:41 AM UTC-5, default wrote:

On Thu, 16 Jan 2020 10:42:28 -0800 (PST), Michael Terrell wrote:

The TS-382 series were military versions in transit cases. They had a vibration reed frequency meter to display 60 Hz and 400Hz. The insides were protected for Jungle use, and the one I have, (TS-382/F)has heat strips to drive moisture out of the cabinet.

I remember those from navy ET-A school. They had two resonant reeds,
for 40 HZ and 400 HZ.


I've never seen one for 40 Hz. Only 60Hz or 60Hz and 400Hz.

Niagara Falls use to send out 25 Hz power.. (maybe three phase,
but I couldn't find a reference.)

George H.


The New York Central System was still using 25HZ 3 phase power
transmission as late as 1970 (the trains used 600+ volts of DC to the
third rail via cycloconverters) The last time I was up there was 2005
and the station lights weren't flickering and they didn't have
incandescent bulbs, so they may have changed the frequency.

There was very noticeable flicker with incandescent light bulbs at 25
HZ

default
Guest

Sun Jan 26, 2020 11:45 pm   



On Sun, 26 Jan 2020 13:00:49 -0800 (PST), George Herold
<gherold_at_teachspin.com> wrote:

Quote:
On Saturday, January 25, 2020 at 7:04:53 AM UTC-5, Michael Terrell wrote:
On Friday, January 24, 2020 at 8:07:41 AM UTC-5, default wrote:

On Thu, 16 Jan 2020 10:42:28 -0800 (PST), Michael Terrell wrote:

The TS-382 series were military versions in transit cases. They had a vibration reed frequency meter to display 60 Hz and 400Hz. The insides were protected for Jungle use, and the one I have, (TS-382/F)has heat strips to drive moisture out of the cabinet.

I remember those from navy ET-A school. They had two resonant reeds,
for 40 HZ and 400 HZ.


I've never seen one for 40 Hz. Only 60Hz or 60Hz and 400Hz.

Niagara Falls use to send out 25 Hz power.. (maybe three phase,
but I couldn't find a reference.)

George H.


Looks like they still use 25 HZ...

The Sitras SFC Plus frequency converters transform 60 Hz power into
“functional, reliable” 25 Hz electricity. The converted electricity is
then transferred from Metuchen to the various systems that power
[catenary] on the NEC. The upgraded converter technology enables
increased power output, more than doubling the facility’s capacity,
from 25 MW to 85 MW.

2018
https://www.railwayage.com/passenger/intercity/siemens-updates-nec-traction-power-station/


Guest

Mon Jan 27, 2020 4:45 am   



On Sunday, 26 January 2020 21:51:32 UTC, default wrote:
Quote:
On Sun, 26 Jan 2020 13:00:49 -0800 (PST), George Herold
gherold_at_teachspin.com> wrote:
On Saturday, January 25, 2020 at 7:04:53 AM UTC-5, Michael Terrell wrote:
On Friday, January 24, 2020 at 8:07:41 AM UTC-5, default wrote:
On Thu, 16 Jan 2020 10:42:28 -0800 (PST), Michael Terrell wrote:

The TS-382 series were military versions in transit cases. They had a vibration reed frequency meter to display 60 Hz and 400Hz. The insides were protected for Jungle use, and the one I have, (TS-382/F)has heat strips to drive moisture out of the cabinet.

I remember those from navy ET-A school. They had two resonant reeds,
for 40 HZ and 400 HZ.


I've never seen one for 40 Hz. Only 60Hz or 60Hz and 400Hz.

Niagara Falls use to send out 25 Hz power.. (maybe three phase,
but I couldn't find a reference.)

George H.

Looks like they still use 25 HZ...

The Sitras SFC Plus frequency converters transform 60 Hz power into
“functional, reliable” 25 Hz electricity. The converted electricity is
then transferred from Metuchen to the various systems that power
[catenary] on the NEC. The upgraded converter technology enables
increased power output, more than doubling the facility’s capacity,
from 25 MW to 85 MW.

2018
https://www.railwayage.com/passenger/intercity/siemens-updates-nec-traction-power-station/


17 or 25Hz gives large motors better get-going ability from start. The pulses help overcome stiction.


NT

Michael Terrell
Guest

Mon Jan 27, 2020 11:45 am   



On Sunday, January 26, 2020 at 4:51:32 PM UTC-5, default wrote:
Quote:
On Sun, 26 Jan 2020 13:00:49 -0800 (PST), George Herold
gherold_at_teachspin.com> wrote:

On Saturday, January 25, 2020 at 7:04:53 AM UTC-5, Michael Terrell wrote:
On Friday, January 24, 2020 at 8:07:41 AM UTC-5, default wrote:

On Thu, 16 Jan 2020 10:42:28 -0800 (PST), Michael Terrell wrote:

The TS-382 series were military versions in transit cases. They had a vibration reed frequency meter to display 60 Hz and 400Hz. The insides were protected for Jungle use, and the one I have, (TS-382/F)has heat strips to drive moisture out of the cabinet.

I remember those from navy ET-A school. They had two resonant reeds,
for 40 HZ and 400 HZ.


I've never seen one for 40 Hz. Only 60Hz or 60Hz and 400Hz.

Niagara Falls use to send out 25 Hz power.. (maybe three phase,
but I couldn't find a reference.)

George H.

Looks like they still use 25 HZ...

The Sitras SFC Plus frequency converters transform 60 Hz power into
“functional, reliable” 25 Hz electricity. The converted electricity is
then transferred from Metuchen to the various systems that power
[catenary] on the NEC. The upgraded converter technology enables
increased power output, more than doubling the facility’s capacity,
from 25 MW to 85 MW.

2018
https://www.railwayage.com/passenger/intercity/siemens-updates-nec-traction-power-station/


Would you try to power any of that from a portable Sinewave generator?

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