Was Runaway Prius Really A Runaway? Or Just A Prank?

A few years ago I was looking at a minivan with defective ABS and I
turned to an astute ex used car dealer and said incredulously,
"there's no way a big auto company would design a car without any back
up brake system . . ."

The astute ex used car dealer didn't say a word.

A few years ago I was looking at a minivan with defective ABS and I
turned to an astute ex used car dealer and said incredulously,
"there's no way a big auto company would design a car without any back
up brake system . . ."
The astute ex used car dealer didn't say a word.

Which has _what_ to do with basic electronics?

On Tue, 9 Mar 2010 20:57:29 -0800 (PST), Bret Cahill
Bret_E_Cahill_at_yahoo.com> wrote:

A few years ago I was looking at a minivan with defective ABS and I
turned to an astute ex used car dealer and said incredulously,
"there's no way a big auto company would design a car without any back
up brake system . . ."

The astute ex used car dealer didn't say a word.

---
Which has _what_ to do with basic electronics?

JF

A few years ago I was looking at a minivan with defective ABS and I
turned to an astute ex used car dealer and said incredulously,
"there's no way a big auto company would design a car without any back
up brake system . . ."

The astute ex used car dealer didn't say a word.


Bret Cahill

"Bret Cahill" <Bret_E_Cahill_at_yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:b3fd7078-e8b8-4f1f-b7ff-d7da0a141a31_at_k6g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
A few years ago I was looking at a minivan with defective ABS and I
turned to an astute ex used car dealer and said incredulously,
"there's no way a big auto company would design a car without any back
up brake system . . ."

The astute ex used car dealer didn't say a word.


Bret Cahill


To me it has the ear marks of a in fuel-accelerator computer system problem.
It's as though the processor goes into la-la land for no apparent reason
into a full, max on failure mode. When the techs look at it, they can't
replicate the problem. The processor never does it again, at least while
anyone is looking. We've never seen software do that have we? No!

But the real problem is Toyota's secrecy, not allowing any third party to
examine their documentation even to the point of defying court orders. They
have blown smoke up each other's butts with attempted fixes, floor mats and
accelerator mechanical fixes but likely to no avail. Failures keep coming
and Toyota believes their own propaganda. It's time for an independent,
third party look into the problems including Toyota's engineering and
documentation without a connection to Toyota but with full openness on their
part. Otherwise, maybe we should forbid them from selling in the US until
they are more open.

The San Diego Prius should be impounded by the TSA and examined by them just
as an airplane would be. Toyota's techs should be kept away from it except
under TSA supervision. Like before, they aren't likely to find anything
wrong or make up something silly like floor mats, drivers big feet or
something equally ridiculous. No more Toyota excuses and secrecy.

On Wed, 10 Mar 2010 09:09:18 -0800, "Bob Eld" <nsmontassoc_at_yahoo.com
wrote:


Two items - one personal, one only secondhand.

1. My 2008 Tacoma puckup is under the "floormat" recall. I noticed
the assembly was wrong whe I bought the truck. The Toyota-provided
overlay mats have grommeted holes for hooks to keep the mats from
moving. However, the hooks are only installed on the passenger side
of the truck - maybe they thought it was to be right hand drive?

2. A woman my wife works with had a new (2010) Corolla. She had not
ecperienced any of the litany of problems, but took it in for the
"sudden acceleration fix". 10 days later, her brother was driving the
car and she ws riding with him when the car experienced a sudden
acceleration event. Her "fix" was successful - she went directly to a
Honda dealer and traded it in on a new Accord.

At this point, I don't plan to take my truck in for the "floormat fix"
and the "courtesy" brake override fix (hitting the brakes above 30 MPH
returns the throttle to idle). I don't believe that Toyota knows
which way is idle in the throttle control unit (bit X or inverted bit
X - which is pretty basic electronics

Besides, being a manual transmission, if there was any sign of unintended
acceleration, I would have instinctively taken it out of gear. I've always
had M/T vehicles since 1970, and I really don't want an automatic.
snip

news_at_jecarter.us> wrote in message
news:bbpfp5laa31oslt80qrnoqbuuarmp2ama9_at_4ax.com...
On Wed, 10 Mar 2010 09:09:18 -0800, "Bob Eld" <nsmontassoc_at_yahoo.com
wrote:


Two items - one personal, one only secondhand.

1. My 2008 Tacoma puckup is under the "floormat" recall. I noticed
the assembly was wrong whe I bought the truck. The Toyota-provided
overlay mats have grommeted holes for hooks to keep the mats from
moving. However, the hooks are only installed on the passenger side
of the truck - maybe they thought it was to be right hand drive?

2. A woman my wife works with had a new (2010) Corolla. She had not
ecperienced any of the litany of problems, but took it in for the
"sudden acceleration fix". 10 days later, her brother was driving the
car and she ws riding with him when the car experienced a sudden
acceleration event. Her "fix" was successful - she went directly to a
Honda dealer and traded it in on a new Accord.

At this point, I don't plan to take my truck in for the "floormat fix"
and the "courtesy" brake override fix (hitting the brakes above 30 MPH
returns the throttle to idle). I don't believe that Toyota knows
which way is idle in the throttle control unit (bit X or inverted bit
X - which is pretty basic electronics ;-)

It adds significantly to the seriousness of this problem when people such as
yourself tell of experiences such as this. I don't really trust the
electronic drive-by-wire systems. The closest thing I have experienced with
this sort of problem was with my 1998 Saturn, where sometimes the idle speed
would increase from its normal 800 RPM to 1500 or even 2000 RPM. It's a five
speed manual, so I only noticed it when I changed gears or held in the
clutch or put it in neutral. I think the problem was a bad temperature
sender which told the computer that the engine was cold.

Also, I think the electronic system had only limited control over the
accelerator, so it could only affect idle speed by cracking the accelerator
perhaps 10%. It used a cable which connected to the air horn, so it could
not provide full power position and the brakes probably would overpower the
engine. Besides, being a manual transmission, if there was any sign of
unintended acceleration, I would have instinctively taken it out of gear.
I've always had M/T vehicles since 1970, and I really don't want an
automatic.

It is a bit scary when we allow mechatronic systems to take over things that
have previously been performed with manual control, perhaps with a bit of
power assist, but always overridable manually.

My current 1989 Toyota 4WD Pickup is under recall notice for a defective
steering relay rod, but I haven't taken it in. I have owned several Toyotas,
and I have been fairly well impressed with the quality and lack of major
problems. But I had a 1982 Toyota LongBed that had some potentially deadly
steering problems.

Once, when I was pulling out of a parking space, the steering wheel suddenly
became very loose. My first thought was that it was on a sheet of ice. But
the steering mechanism ball joint had popped out of the socket, which would
have been really interesting if I was maneuvering in high speed traffic!

And not long after that, I had pulled into a snow-covered dirt parking area,
and I found I had problems steering, which I assumed was caused by ice. But
when I looked, one wheel was pointed in one direction, and the other was
pointed elsewhere. A tie rod end had come loose. I was able to pop it back
in and secure it with baling wire until I gingerly drove to the shop. But,
again, fortunate that I was not going fast. It had almost 200,000 miles on
it, and it was probably time for a major steering overhaul.

I really don't trust electronics to drive my vehicle for me. And I don't
need to have it park itself. Imagine if that procedure got called when you
were just rolling along on the Interstate with 18-wheelers all around you!

Paul

Two items - one personal, one only secondhand.

1. My 2008 Tacoma puckup is under the "floormat" recall.  I noticed
the assembly was wrong whe I bought the truck.  The Toyota-provided
overlay mats have grommeted holes for hooks to keep the mats from
moving.  However, the hooks are only installed on the passenger side
of the truck - maybe they thought it was to be right hand drive?

2. A woman my wife works with had a new (2010) Corolla.  She had not
ecperienced any of the litany of problems, but took it in for the
"sudden acceleration fix".  10 days later, her brother was driving the
car and she ws riding with him when the car experienced a sudden
acceleration event.  Her "fix" was successful - she went directly to a
Honda dealer and traded it in on a new Accord.

At this point, I don't plan to take my truck in for the "floormat fix"
and the "courtesy" brake override fix (hitting the brakes above 30 MPH
returns the throttle to idle).  I don't believe that Toyota knows
which way is idle in the throttle control unit (bit X or inverted bit
X - which is pretty basic electronics ;-)

It adds significantly to the seriousness of this problem when people such as
yourself tell of experiences such as this. I don't really trust the
electronic drive-by-wire systems. The closest thing I have experienced with
this sort of problem was with my 1998 Saturn, where sometimes the idle speed
would increase from its normal 800 RPM to 1500 or even 2000 RPM. It's a five
speed manual, so I only noticed it when I changed gears or held in the
clutch or put it in neutral. I think the problem was a bad temperature
sender which told the computer that the engine was cold.

Also, I think the electronic system had only limited control over the
accelerator, so it could only affect idle speed by cracking the accelerator
perhaps 10%. It used a cable which connected to the air horn, so it could
not provide full power position and the brakes probably would overpower the
engine. Besides, being a manual transmission, if there was any sign of
unintended acceleration, I would have instinctively taken it out of gear.
I've always had M/T vehicles since 1970, and I really don't want an
automatic.

It is a bit scary when we allow mechatronic systems to take over things that
have previously been performed with manual control, perhaps with a bit of
power assist, but always overridable manually.

My current 1989 Toyota 4WD Pickup is under recall notice for a defective
steering relay rod, but I haven't taken it in. I have owned several Toyotas,
and I have been fairly well impressed with the quality and lack of major
problems. But I had a 1982 Toyota LongBed that had some potentially deadly
steering problems.

Once, when I was pulling out of a parking space, the steering wheel suddenly
became very loose. My first thought was that it was on a sheet of ice. But
the steering mechanism ball joint had popped out of the socket, which would
have been really interesting if I was maneuvering in high speed traffic!

And not long after that, I had pulled into a snow-covered dirt parking area,
and I found I had problems steering, which I assumed was caused by ice. But
when I looked, one wheel was pointed in one direction, and the other was
pointed elsewhere. A tie rod end had come loose. I was able to pop it back
in and secure it with baling wire until I gingerly drove to the shop. But,
again, fortunate that I was not going fast. It had almost 200,000 miles on
it, and it was probably time for a major steering overhaul.

I really don't trust electronics to drive my vehicle for me. And I don't
need to have it park itself. Imagine if that procedure got called when you
were just rolling along on the Interstate with 18-wheelers all around you!

To me it has the ear marks of a in fuel-accelerator computer system problem.
It's as though the processor goes into la-la land for no apparent reason
into a full, max on failure mode. When the techs look at it, they can't
replicate the problem. The processor never does it again, at least while
anyone is looking. We've never seen software do that have we? No!

But the real problem is Toyota's secrecy, not allowing any third party to
examine their documentation even to the point of defying court orders. They
have blown smoke up each other's butts with attempted fixes, floor mats and
accelerator mechanical fixes but likely to no avail. Failures keep coming
and Toyota believes their own propaganda. It's time for an independent,
third party look into the problems including Toyota's engineering and
documentation without a connection to Toyota but with full openness on their
part. Otherwise, maybe we should forbid them from selling in the US until
they are more open.

The San Diego Prius should be impounded by the TSA and examined by them just
as an airplane would be.  

Toyota's techs should be kept away from it except
under TSA supervision. Like before, they aren't likely to find anything
wrong or make up something silly like floor mats, drivers big feet or
something equally ridiculous. No more Toyota excuses and secrecy.

To me it has the ear marks of a in fuel-accelerator computer system problem.
It's as though the processor goes into la-la land for no apparent reason
into a full, max on failure mode. When the techs look at it, they can't
replicate the problem. The processor never does it again, at least while
anyone is looking. We've never seen software do that have we? No!

But the real problem is Toyota's secrecy, not allowing any third party to
examine their documentation even to the point of defying court orders. They
have blown smoke up each other's butts with attempted fixes, floor mats and
accelerator mechanical fixes but likely to no avail. Failures keep coming
and Toyota believes their own propaganda. It's time for an independent,
third party look into the problems including Toyota's engineering and
documentation without a connection to Toyota but with full openness on their
part. Otherwise, maybe we should forbid them from selling in the US until
they are more open.

The San Diego Prius should be impounded by the TSA and examined by them just
as an airplane would be.  

It's hard to believe that a brake system designed to take the car from
60 - 0 in 3 seconds cannot prevail against a drive train that can only
put out a fourth that much power.

Toyota's techs should be kept away from it except
under TSA supervision. Like before, they aren't likely to find anything
wrong or make up something silly like floor mats, drivers big feet or
something equally ridiculous. No more Toyota excuses and secrecy.

http://energycommerce.house.gov/Press_111/20100223/Gilbert.Testimony.pdf


Bret Cahill

  It's hard to believe that a brake system designed to take the car from
  60 - 0 in 3 seconds cannot prevail against a drive train that can only
  put out a fourth that much power.

 http://energycommerce.house.gov/Press_111/20100223/Gilbert.Testimony.pdf

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

That's an interesting article. In my 1999 Saturn, and previous 1998 and 1997
models, I sometimes got service codes indicating slow or out of calibration
readings on things like the oxygen sensor. But they don't have ETCs,
although the ECM can increase the idle speed.

With a hybrid vehicle such as the Prius, there are other failure mechanisms
that might cause runaway acceleration. The electric motors are probably
driven by a PWM controller, and the motors may be connected directly to the
drivetrain. Apparently the Prius does not have a manual transmission option,
and there is no actual transmission. So a failure of the controller could
cause a full-speed motor drive, and unlike a gasoline engine, it would never
stall, and it has as much torque at 90 MPH as at start. So, without an
electrical system kill switch, it might be possible to burn up the brakes..

Apparently the first generation Honda Civic Hybrid had  a manual tranny
option. But it only does 0-60 in 11.6 seconds. Their Accord Hybrid is
peppier, but comes only in automatic. And I was surprised that it only got
28 city/35 highway MPG. My simple bare bones $4000 1999 Saturn SL-1 does at
least that.

"Bret Cahill" <Bret_E_Cahill_at_yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:b3fd7078-e8b8-4f1f-b7ff-d7da0a141a31_at_k6g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
A few years ago I was looking at a minivan with defective ABS and I
turned to an astute ex used car dealer and said incredulously,
"there's no way a big auto company would design a car without any back
up brake system . . ."

The astute ex used car dealer didn't say a word.


Bret Cahill


To me it has the ear marks of a in fuel-accelerator computer system
problem.
It's as though the processor goes into la-la land for no apparent reason
into a full, max on failure mode. When the techs look at it, they can't
replicate the problem. The processor never does it again, at least while
anyone is looking. We've never seen software do that have we? No!

But the real problem is Toyota's secrecy, not allowing any third party to
examine their documentation even to the point of defying court orders.
They
have blown smoke up each other's butts with attempted fixes, floor mats
and
accelerator mechanical fixes but likely to no avail. Failures keep coming
and Toyota believes their own propaganda. It's time for an independent,
third party look into the problems including Toyota's engineering and
documentation without a connection to Toyota but with full openness on
their
part. Otherwise, maybe we should forbid them from selling in the US until
they are more open.

The San Diego Prius should be impounded by the TSA and examined by them
just
as an airplane would be. Toyota's techs should be kept away from it
except
under TSA supervision. Like before, they aren't likely to find anything
wrong or make up something silly like floor mats, drivers big feet or
something equally ridiculous. No more Toyota excuses and secrecy.