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elektroda.net NewsGroups Forum Index - Electronics Design - **Utility Power Meters**

Guest

Sun Jan 06, 2019 8:45 pm

My understanding is that utility meters measure instantaneous voltage and current (simultaneously) at a rate much higher than the AC period and use the sum of the products over a time period (typically a multiple of the AC period) to measure power. Then apparent power is calculated (if needed) by calculating the RMS of each the voltage and current over the same time period and calculating the product. From these two the reactive power and power factor can be calculated.

Did I leave out anything important? Or did I completely misunderstand what is going on?

Rick C.

- Get 6 months of free supercharging

- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

Guest

Sun Jan 06, 2019 8:45 pm

sÃ¸ndag den 6. januar 2019 kl. 20.10.39 UTC+1 skrev gnuarm.del...@gmail..com:

My understanding is that utility meters measure instantaneous voltage and current (simultaneously) at a rate much higher than the AC period and use the sum of the products over a time period (typically a multiple of the AC period) to measure power. Then apparent power is calculated (if needed) by calculating the RMS of each the voltage and current over the same time period and calculating the product. From these two the reactive power and power factor can be calculated.

Did I leave out anything important? Or did I completely misunderstand what is going on?

Did I leave out anything important? Or did I completely misunderstand what is going on?

https://www.analog.com/media/en/technical-documentation/data-sheets/ade9153a.pdf

Guest

Sun Jan 06, 2019 9:45 pm

sÃ¸ndag den 6. januar 2019 kl. 21.01.27 UTC+1 skrev whit3rd:

On Sunday, January 6, 2019 at 11:10:39 AM UTC-8, gnuarm.del...@gmail.com wrote:

My understanding is that utility meters measure instantaneous voltage and current (simultaneously) at a rate much higher than the AC period ...

Yes, so far so good.

and use the sum of the products over a time period (typically a multiple of the AC period) to measure power.

Not required; those products ARE the instantaneous power, and they sum to reach the

real goal, the energy-delivered (kWh) reading. The meter just accumulates and scales

according to its time-calibration of the measurement period.

Then apparent power is calculated (if needed) by calculating the RMS of each the voltage and current over the same time period and calculating the product. From these two the reactive power and power factor can be calculated.

Most utility meters don't display such detail. Whether they calculate/record/report it, though,

is uncertain. My (new, digital) meter is less forthcoming than the old moving-dials one,

you cannot see the power (energy use rate) spinning a disk, you have to

watch, capture two digital measurement energy displays, use a stopwatch....

My understanding is that utility meters measure instantaneous voltage and current (simultaneously) at a rate much higher than the AC period ...

Yes, so far so good.

and use the sum of the products over a time period (typically a multiple of the AC period) to measure power.

Not required; those products ARE the instantaneous power, and they sum to reach the

real goal, the energy-delivered (kWh) reading. The meter just accumulates and scales

according to its time-calibration of the measurement period.

Then apparent power is calculated (if needed) by calculating the RMS of each the voltage and current over the same time period and calculating the product. From these two the reactive power and power factor can be calculated.

Most utility meters don't display such detail. Whether they calculate/record/report it, though,

is uncertain. My (new, digital) meter is less forthcoming than the old moving-dials one,

you cannot see the power (energy use rate) spinning a disk, you have to

watch, capture two digital measurement energy displays, use a stopwatch....

here I think they all have an LED that flashes once per Wh

Guest

Sun Jan 06, 2019 9:45 pm

On Sun, 6 Jan 2019 12:01:22 -0800 (PST), whit3rd <whit3rd_at_gmail.com>

wrote:

On Sunday, January 6, 2019 at 11:10:39 AM UTC-8, gnuarm.del...@gmail.com wrote:

My understanding is that utility meters measure instantaneous voltage and current (simultaneously) at a rate much higher than the AC period ...

Yes, so far so good.

and use the sum of the products over a time period (typically a multiple of the AC period) to measure power.

Not required; those products ARE the instantaneous power, and they sum to reach the

real goal, the energy-delivered (kWh) reading. The meter just accumulates and scales

according to its time-calibration of the measurement period.

Then apparent power is calculated (if needed) by calculating the RMS of each the voltage and current over the same time period and calculating the product. From these two the reactive power and power factor can be calculated.

Most utility meters don't display such detail. Whether they calculate/record/report it, though,

is uncertain. My (new, digital) meter is less forthcoming than the old moving-dials one,

you cannot see the power (energy use rate) spinning a disk, you have to

watch, capture two digital measurement energy displays, use a stopwatch...

My understanding is that utility meters measure instantaneous voltage and current (simultaneously) at a rate much higher than the AC period ...

Yes, so far so good.

and use the sum of the products over a time period (typically a multiple of the AC period) to measure power.

Not required; those products ARE the instantaneous power, and they sum to reach the

real goal, the energy-delivered (kWh) reading. The meter just accumulates and scales

according to its time-calibration of the measurement period.

Then apparent power is calculated (if needed) by calculating the RMS of each the voltage and current over the same time period and calculating the product. From these two the reactive power and power factor can be calculated.

Most utility meters don't display such detail. Whether they calculate/record/report it, though,

is uncertain. My (new, digital) meter is less forthcoming than the old moving-dials one,

you cannot see the power (energy use rate) spinning a disk, you have to

watch, capture two digital measurement energy displays, use a stopwatch...

Time-of-use billing measures average power over some intervals, like 5

minutes maybe.

Online connected meters can report everything: power, voltage, power

factor.

--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

lunatic fringe electronics

Guest

Sun Jan 06, 2019 9:45 pm

On Sunday, January 6, 2019 at 11:10:39 AM UTC-8, gnuarm.del...@gmail.com wrote:

> My understanding is that utility meters measure instantaneous voltage and current (simultaneously) at a rate much higher than the AC period ...

Yes, so far so good.

>and use the sum of the products over a time period (typically a multiple of the AC period) to measure power.

Not required; those products ARE the instantaneous power, and they sum to reach the

real goal, the energy-delivered (kWh) reading. The meter just accumulates and scales

according to its time-calibration of the measurement period.

Then apparent power is calculated (if needed) by calculating the RMS of each the voltage and current over the same time period and calculating the product. From these two the reactive power and power factor can be calculated.

Most utility meters don't display such detail. Whether they calculate/record/report it, though,

is uncertain. My (new, digital) meter is less forthcoming than the old moving-dials one,

you cannot see the power (energy use rate) spinning a disk, you have to

watch, capture two digital measurement energy displays, use a stopwatch...

Guest

Sun Jan 06, 2019 9:45 pm

On Sun, 6 Jan 2019 11:30:16 -0800 (PST), Lasse Langwadt Christensen

<langwadt_at_fonz.dk> wrote:

søndag den 6. januar 2019 kl. 20.10.39 UTC+1 skrev gnuarm.del...@gmail.com:

My understanding is that utility meters measure instantaneous voltage and current (simultaneously) at a rate much higher than the AC period and use the sum of the products over a time period (typically a multiple of the AC period) to measure power. Then apparent power is calculated (if needed) by calculating the RMS of each the voltage and current over the same time period and calculating the product. From these two the reactive power and power factor can be calculated.

Did I leave out anything important? Or did I completely misunderstand what is going on?

https://www.analog.com/media/en/technical-documentation/data-sheets/ade9153a.pdf

My understanding is that utility meters measure instantaneous voltage and current (simultaneously) at a rate much higher than the AC period and use the sum of the products over a time period (typically a multiple of the AC period) to measure power. Then apparent power is calculated (if needed) by calculating the RMS of each the voltage and current over the same time period and calculating the product. From these two the reactive power and power factor can be calculated.

Did I leave out anything important? Or did I completely misunderstand what is going on?

https://www.analog.com/media/en/technical-documentation/data-sheets/ade9153a.pdf

The ADCs used in power metering need not have high sample rates nor

low noise; a few LSBs of noise are actually good. We are trying to

gather statistics on millions of samples of the E*I product, not

reproduce the waveforms. The Sampling Theorem doesn't apply here.

I sold hundreds of thousands of channels of AC power metering that

used single-slope ADCs sampling at around 27 Hz.

--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

lunatic fringe electronics

Guest

Sun Jan 06, 2019 10:45 pm

On Sunday, 6 January 2019 19:10:39 UTC, gnuarm.del...@gmail.com wrote:

My understanding is that utility meters measure instantaneous voltage and current (simultaneously) at a rate much higher than the AC period and use the sum of the products over a time period (typically a multiple of the AC period) to measure power. Then apparent power is calculated (if needed) by calculating the RMS of each the voltage and current over the same time period and calculating the product. From these two the reactive power and power factor can be calculated.

Did I leave out anything important? Or did I completely misunderstand what is going on?

Rick C.

- Get 6 months of free supercharging

- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

Did I leave out anything important? Or did I completely misunderstand what is going on?

Rick C.

- Get 6 months of free supercharging

- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

Most are electromagnetic followed by a mechanical gear train adder. They are insensitive to imaginary power.

NT

Guest

Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:45 pm

On 1/6/2019 12:19 PM, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:

sÃ¸ndag den 6. januar 2019 kl. 21.01.27 UTC+1 skrev whit3rd:

On Sunday, January 6, 2019 at 11:10:39 AM UTC-8, gnuarm.del...@gmail.com wrote:

My understanding is that utility meters measure instantaneous voltage and current (simultaneously) at a rate much higher than the AC period ...

Yes, so far so good.

and use the sum of the products over a time period (typically a multiple of the AC period) to measure power.

Not required; those products ARE the instantaneous power, and they sum to reach the

real goal, the energy-delivered (kWh) reading. The meter just accumulates and scales

according to its time-calibration of the measurement period.

Then apparent power is calculated (if needed) by calculating the RMS of each the voltage and current over the same time period and calculating the product. From these two the reactive power and power factor can be calculated.

Most utility meters don't display such detail. Whether they calculate/record/report it, though,

is uncertain. My (new, digital) meter is less forthcoming than the old moving-dials one,

you cannot see the power (energy use rate) spinning a disk, you have to

watch, capture two digital measurement energy displays, use a stopwatch...

here I think they all have an LED that flashes once per Wh

On Sunday, January 6, 2019 at 11:10:39 AM UTC-8, gnuarm.del...@gmail.com wrote:

My understanding is that utility meters measure instantaneous voltage and current (simultaneously) at a rate much higher than the AC period ...

Yes, so far so good.

and use the sum of the products over a time period (typically a multiple of the AC period) to measure power.

Not required; those products ARE the instantaneous power, and they sum to reach the

real goal, the energy-delivered (kWh) reading. The meter just accumulates and scales

according to its time-calibration of the measurement period.

Then apparent power is calculated (if needed) by calculating the RMS of each the voltage and current over the same time period and calculating the product. From these two the reactive power and power factor can be calculated.

Most utility meters don't display such detail. Whether they calculate/record/report it, though,

is uncertain. My (new, digital) meter is less forthcoming than the old moving-dials one,

you cannot see the power (energy use rate) spinning a disk, you have to

watch, capture two digital measurement energy displays, use a stopwatch...

here I think they all have an LED that flashes once per Wh

If you have an old PDA, like a Palm Pilot, with an IR sensor, it's

relatively

easy to read/log those flashes to track usage.

Guest

Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:45 pm

sÃ¸ndag den 6. januar 2019 kl. 22.48.13 UTC+1 skrev Mike:

On 1/6/2019 12:19 PM, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:

sÃ¸ndag den 6. januar 2019 kl. 21.01.27 UTC+1 skrev whit3rd:

On Sunday, January 6, 2019 at 11:10:39 AM UTC-8, gnuarm.del...@gmail.com wrote:

My understanding is that utility meters measure instantaneous voltage and current (simultaneously) at a rate much higher than the AC period ...

Yes, so far so good.

and use the sum of the products over a time period (typically a multiple of the AC period) to measure power.

Not required; those products ARE the instantaneous power, and they sum to reach the

real goal, the energy-delivered (kWh) reading. The meter just accumulates and scales

according to its time-calibration of the measurement period.

Then apparent power is calculated (if needed) by calculating the RMS of each the voltage and current over the same time period and calculating the product. From these two the reactive power and power factor can be calculated.

Most utility meters don't display such detail. Whether they calculate/record/report it, though,

is uncertain. My (new, digital) meter is less forthcoming than the old moving-dials one,

you cannot see the power (energy use rate) spinning a disk, you have to

watch, capture two digital measurement energy displays, use a stopwatch...

here I think they all have an LED that flashes once per Wh

If you have an old PDA, like a Palm Pilot, with an IR sensor, it's

relatively

easy to read/log those flashes to track usage.

sÃ¸ndag den 6. januar 2019 kl. 21.01.27 UTC+1 skrev whit3rd:

On Sunday, January 6, 2019 at 11:10:39 AM UTC-8, gnuarm.del...@gmail.com wrote:

My understanding is that utility meters measure instantaneous voltage and current (simultaneously) at a rate much higher than the AC period ...

Yes, so far so good.

and use the sum of the products over a time period (typically a multiple of the AC period) to measure power.

Not required; those products ARE the instantaneous power, and they sum to reach the

real goal, the energy-delivered (kWh) reading. The meter just accumulates and scales

according to its time-calibration of the measurement period.

Then apparent power is calculated (if needed) by calculating the RMS of each the voltage and current over the same time period and calculating the product. From these two the reactive power and power factor can be calculated.

Most utility meters don't display such detail. Whether they calculate/record/report it, though,

is uncertain. My (new, digital) meter is less forthcoming than the old moving-dials one,

you cannot see the power (energy use rate) spinning a disk, you have to

watch, capture two digital measurement energy displays, use a stopwatch...

here I think they all have an LED that flashes once per Wh

If you have an old PDA, like a Palm Pilot, with an IR sensor, it's

relatively

easy to read/log those flashes to track usage.

afaiu quite a few of those used have also have an IR serial port and with a reasonable easy to guess code you can read out all the instantaneous and accumulated values

Guest

Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:45 pm

John Larkin <jjlarkin_at_highlandtechnology.com> wrote:

On Sun, 6 Jan 2019 11:30:16 -0800 (PST), Lasse Langwadt Christensen

langwadt_at_fonz.dk> wrote:

sÃ¸ndag den 6. januar 2019 kl. 20.10.39 UTC+1 skrev gnuarm.del...@gmail.com:

My understanding is that utility meters measure instantaneous voltage and current (simultaneously) at a rate much higher than the AC period and use the sum of the products over a time period (typically a multiple of the AC period) to measure power. Then apparent power is calculated (if needed) by calculating the RMS of each the voltage and current over the same time period and calculating the product. From these two the reactive power and power factor can be calculated.

Did I leave out anything important? Or did I completely misunderstand what is going on?

https://www.analog.com/media/en/technical-documentation/data-sheets/ade9153a.pdf

The ADCs used in power metering need not have high sample rates nor

low noise; a few LSBs of noise are actually good. We are trying to

gather statistics on millions of samples of the E*I product, not

reproduce the waveforms. The Sampling Theorem doesn't apply here.

I sold hundreds of thousands of channels of AC power metering that

used single-slope ADCs sampling at around 27 Hz.

langwadt_at_fonz.dk> wrote:

sÃ¸ndag den 6. januar 2019 kl. 20.10.39 UTC+1 skrev gnuarm.del...@gmail.com:

My understanding is that utility meters measure instantaneous voltage and current (simultaneously) at a rate much higher than the AC period and use the sum of the products over a time period (typically a multiple of the AC period) to measure power. Then apparent power is calculated (if needed) by calculating the RMS of each the voltage and current over the same time period and calculating the product. From these two the reactive power and power factor can be calculated.

Did I leave out anything important? Or did I completely misunderstand what is going on?

https://www.analog.com/media/en/technical-documentation/data-sheets/ade9153a.pdf

The ADCs used in power metering need not have high sample rates nor

low noise; a few LSBs of noise are actually good. We are trying to

gather statistics on millions of samples of the E*I product, not

reproduce the waveforms. The Sampling Theorem doesn't apply here.

I sold hundreds of thousands of channels of AC power metering that

used single-slope ADCs sampling at around 27 Hz.

It may matter. When the current is far from sinusoidal, the computed

power may be much more when the calculation is not done carefully, or

when there are problems with the filtering.

A while ago there was some local coverage here in the Netherlands on a

consumer tv programme about the fact that so many customers observe an

increased energy consumption when they have a "smart meter" installed.

Usually before that, they had an electromechanical meter of the

"Ferraris" type, and now it is replaced with an electronic meter with

remote readout capabilties (called "smart meter" here).

Of course the difference is not related to the remote readout but to

the electronic measurement technology.

I studied the relevant regulations for an electricity meter and also

mailed with the responsible person at the authority. It turns out that

nowhere in the regulations the non-sinusoidal current problem is

discussed. The only thing appearing in the standards is the handling

of Cos-Phi. The meter should indicate kWh, not kVAh.

However, in today's households there tends to be a non-sinusoidal

current due to small switchmode powersupplies (that are not mandatory

to have powerfactor correction), LED lamps, etc.

The result is that the electronic meter registers more than the Ferraris

meter. How much more, that depends on the exact make and model of meter.

But that is all within spec, because THERE IS NO SPEC.

When you claim the meter is wrong, it is being checked with a resistive

load and of course that is metered correctly...

The difficult problem of course is: what is reasonable. One could also

argue that the Ferraris meter displayed a too-low value, as the

electricity companies have to deal with the non-sinusoidal current

which causes them all kinds of problems. The customer should pay for

that or stop doing it.

The last word has not been said about it, but for now I have deferred

the change to a smart meter, and so have many others.

Guest

Mon Jan 07, 2019 10:20 am

In article <2b479eeb-d642-42b6-88b3-32b821830455_at_googlegroups.com>,

Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt_at_fonz.dk> wrote:

>> > here I think they all have an LED that flashes once per Wh

Here (UK) even my Siemens, non-smart-but-digital, meter has a blink-per-wH

LED (orange) which you could monitor externally with a sensor without

tampering.

If you have an old PDA, like a Palm Pilot, with an IR sensor, it's=20

relatively

easy to read/log those flashes to track usage.

afaiu quite a few of those used have also have an IR serial port and with a=

reasonable easy to guess code you can read out all the instantaneous and a=

ccumulated values

relatively

easy to read/log those flashes to track usage.

afaiu quite a few of those used have also have an IR serial port and with a=

reasonable easy to guess code you can read out all the instantaneous and a=

ccumulated values

It has the split-IR port too (TX, RX halves) for setup/reading (never used

since install).

Elektor ran a project for this, with details of the coding/electronics for the

IR port. Some features are behind an encrypted/password wall, presumably

stuff like "reset counter" and "change tarriff settings" :)

Found it: Elektor (UK) 2002 March, "IEC 1107 Electricity Meter Interface"

(although Wikipedia refers to it as IEC *6*1107, later renamed to IEC

62056-21)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IEC_62056

--

--------------------------------------+------------------------------------

Mike Brown: mjb[-at-]signal11.org.uk | http://www.signal11.org.uk

--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: news_at_netfront.net ---

Guest

Thu Mar 07, 2019 12:45 am

Rob <nomail_at_example.com> writes:

However, in today's households there tends to be a

non-sinusoidal current due to small switchmode powersupplies

(that are not mandatory to have powerfactor correction), LED

lamps, etc.

non-sinusoidal current due to small switchmode powersupplies

(that are not mandatory to have powerfactor correction), LED

lamps, etc.

It's getting hard to find linear/sinusoidal loads...

Lighting: LED/SMPS

Heat: Heat pump with VFD or gas burner with VFD fan

Computers: SMPS

Oven: VFD/SMPS for temp-controlled heat

and so forth.

What's left?

--

A host is a host from coast to coast.................wb8foz_at_nrk.com

& no one will talk to a host that's close..........................

Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433

is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433

Guest

Thu Mar 07, 2019 12:45 am

whit3rd <whit3rd_at_gmail.com> writes:

Most utility meters don't display such detail. Whether they

calculate/record/report it, though, is uncertain. My (new,

digital) meter is less forthcoming than the old moving-dials

one, you cannot see the power (energy use rate) spinning a

disk, you have to watch, capture two digital measurement energy

displays, use a stopwatch...

calculate/record/report it, though, is uncertain. My (new,

digital) meter is less forthcoming than the old moving-dials

one, you cannot see the power (energy use rate) spinning a

disk, you have to watch, capture two digital measurement energy

displays, use a stopwatch...

Silver Spring Networks has meters around here for several PoCos.

Some are set to just display KWH. Others cycle through voltage,

KVA, KW, and KWH.

--

A host is a host from coast to coast.................wb8foz_at_nrk.com

& no one will talk to a host that's close..........................

Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433

is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433

Guest

Fri Mar 08, 2019 2:45 pm

David Lesher <wb8foz_at_panix.com> wrote:

Rob <nomail_at_example.com> writes:

However, in today's households there tends to be a

non-sinusoidal current due to small switchmode powersupplies

(that are not mandatory to have powerfactor correction), LED

lamps, etc.

It's getting hard to find linear/sinusoidal loads...

Lighting: LED/SMPS

Heat: Heat pump with VFD or gas burner with VFD fan

Computers: SMPS

Oven: VFD/SMPS for temp-controlled heat

and so forth.

However, in today's households there tends to be a

non-sinusoidal current due to small switchmode powersupplies

(that are not mandatory to have powerfactor correction), LED

lamps, etc.

It's getting hard to find linear/sinusoidal loads...

Lighting: LED/SMPS

Heat: Heat pump with VFD or gas burner with VFD fan

Computers: SMPS

Oven: VFD/SMPS for temp-controlled heat

and so forth.

Thus it is very attractive for metering companies to register

2*Vpeak*Ipeak*Cos(phi) instead of integrating V*I at a sample time

sufficient to see all harmonic components of the current.

And depending on standards and regulations, they may actually be allowed

to do that. In the relevant standards here, there is no mention at all

about the handling of non-sinusoidal current so meters only need to be

tested on a pure resistive load and on inductive and capacitive loads.

Guest

Fri Mar 08, 2019 3:45 pm

So placing a big x capacitor just after the utility meter could save you money?

elektroda.net NewsGroups Forum Index - Electronics Design - **Utility Power Meters**