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Ian Field
Guest

Fri Feb 01, 2013 7:17 pm   



With NiMh, its accustomed practice to give the cells a few charge cycles to
work up to their full performance - does the same apply to Li-Ion?

Recently I bought a 3W Li-Ion LED handlamp and I've spent more time
recharging the battery than actually using it! Every time I've gone to use
it I've found that the battery has self discharged and is totally flat.

Although there is no mention of full charge cycling in the instruction
booklet, I tried charging it then running it down in a single session to
cycle the battery - there seems to be some improvement, but its still too
soon to tell for sure.

Any comments on the correct care of Li-Ion batteries are welcome.

Thanks.


Guest

Fri Feb 01, 2013 8:38 pm   



On Fri, 1 Feb 2013 18:17:33 -0000, "Ian Field"
<gangprobing.alien_at_ntlworld.com> wrote:

Quote:
With NiMh, its accustomed practice to give the cells a few charge cycles to
work up to their full performance - does the same apply to Li-Ion?

Recently I bought a 3W Li-Ion LED handlamp and I've spent more time
recharging the battery than actually using it! Every time I've gone to use
it I've found that the battery has self discharged and is totally flat.

That shouldn't happen. The self-discharge of LiIon batteries should
be measured in years. At the PPoE, after four years on the shelf we
found "new" batteries still had over half charge.

Quote:
Although there is no mention of full charge cycling in the instruction
booklet, I tried charging it then running it down in a single session to
cycle the battery - there seems to be some improvement, but its still too
soon to tell for sure.

Cycling LiIon batteries is often recommended but not so much to
condition the battery as to reset/calibrate the charging circuit.
Laptops, in particular, track the charge of batteries and the charger
needs to learn a "new" battery. The cells themselves don't need any
"reforming" or anything.

Quote:
Any comments on the correct care of Li-Ion batteries are welcome.

They're really pretty simple to use but don't take gross abuse well.
It sounds like you have a defective battery or perhaps more likely, a
defective appliance.

asdf
Guest

Fri Feb 01, 2013 8:53 pm   



On Fri, 01 Feb 2013 18:17:33 +0000, Ian Field wrote:

Quote:
Recently I bought a 3W Li-Ion LED handlamp and I've spent more time
recharging the battery than actually using it! Every time I've gone to
use it I've found that the battery has self discharged and is totally
flat.

How much time goes between last recharge and when you find it flat?
Lithium based batteries should have a much longer self discharge rate
compared to NiMh ones. This may indicate che battery is either crap or
defective. The safety circuit also may be eating power for no reason.

Quote:
Any comments on the correct care of Li-Ion batteries are welcome.

Lots of information here.
http://batteryuniversity.com/

Ian Field
Guest

Fri Feb 01, 2013 10:42 pm   



"asdf" <asdf_at_nospam.com> wrote in message
news:keh2vq$819$1_at_speranza.aioe.org...
Quote:
On Fri, 01 Feb 2013 18:17:33 +0000, Ian Field wrote:

Recently I bought a 3W Li-Ion LED handlamp and I've spent more time
recharging the battery than actually using it! Every time I've gone to
use it I've found that the battery has self discharged and is totally
flat.

How much time goes between last recharge and when you find it flat?
Lithium based batteries should have a much longer self discharge rate
compared to NiMh ones. This may indicate che battery is either crap or
defective. The safety circuit also may be eating power for no reason.


Maybe 2-3 weeks, I'd expect the battery to stay up a lot longer than that!

The instructions warn to disconnect the wall-wart from the lamp when not
charging, to prevent discharge - but when its not brought in for charging,
the lamp is in the lock up garage far from the wall wart.

It says 3 yr warranty on the box and I'm well within the statutory 1 yr, if
having cycled the battery shows no improvement, I can decide to return it or
write off the loss & indulge in a bit of reverse engineering.

Ian Field
Guest

Fri Feb 01, 2013 10:49 pm   



<krw_at_attt.bizz> wrote in message
news:626og850qr4fpq4b3akk9c3g309etcj9mk_at_4ax.com...
Quote:
On Fri, 1 Feb 2013 18:17:33 -0000, "Ian Field"
gangprobing.alien_at_ntlworld.com> wrote:

With NiMh, its accustomed practice to give the cells a few charge cycles
to
work up to their full performance - does the same apply to Li-Ion?

Recently I bought a 3W Li-Ion LED handlamp and I've spent more time
recharging the battery than actually using it! Every time I've gone to use
it I've found that the battery has self discharged and is totally flat.

That shouldn't happen. The self-discharge of LiIon batteries should
be measured in years. At the PPoE, after four years on the shelf we
found "new" batteries still had over half charge.

Although there is no mention of full charge cycling in the instruction
booklet, I tried charging it then running it down in a single session to
cycle the battery - there seems to be some improvement, but its still too
soon to tell for sure.

Cycling LiIon batteries is often recommended but not so much to
condition the battery as to reset/calibrate the charging circuit.
Laptops, in particular, track the charge of batteries and the charger
needs to learn a "new" battery. The cells themselves don't need any
"reforming" or anything.

The instructions say its protected from overcharging - but nontheless
shouldn't be left charging for long periods after the charge indicator LED
changes from red to green.

When I cycled the battery - towards the end of discharge I could hear the
oscillator whine getting lower, AFAIK there is no indicator of excessive
discharge, I didn't continue the discharge to see if there's an automatic
UVLO, as I understand that Li-Ion won't recharge if over discharged.

Peter
Guest

Fri Feb 01, 2013 10:53 pm   



On Fri, 01 Feb 2013 14:38:10 -0500, krw_at_attt.bizz wrote:

Quote:
On Fri, 1 Feb 2013 18:17:33 -0000, "Ian Field"
gangprobing.alien_at_ntlworld.com> wrote:

With NiMh, its accustomed practice to give the cells a few charge cycles to
work up to their full performance - does the same apply to Li-Ion?

Recently I bought a 3W Li-Ion LED handlamp and I've spent more time
recharging the battery than actually using it! Every time I've gone to use
it I've found that the battery has self discharged and is totally flat.

That shouldn't happen. The self-discharge of LiIon batteries should
be measured in years. At the PPoE, after four years on the shelf we
found "new" batteries still had over half charge.

Although there is no mention of full charge cycling in the instruction
booklet, I tried charging it then running it down in a single session to
cycle the battery - there seems to be some improvement, but its still too
soon to tell for sure.

Cycling LiIon batteries is often recommended but not so much to
condition the battery as to reset/calibrate the charging circuit.
Laptops, in particular, track the charge of batteries and the charger
needs to learn a "new" battery. The cells themselves don't need any
"reforming" or anything.

Any comments on the correct care of Li-Ion batteries are welcome.

They're really pretty simple to use but don't take gross abuse well.
It sounds like you have a defective battery or perhaps more likely, a
defective appliance.

Or a defective battery charger

Ian Field
Guest

Fri Feb 01, 2013 11:39 pm   



"Peter" <peter_at_arin.htlm.com> wrote in message
news:o9eog81f3rl69r12he20rltu4l9agijkmr_at_4ax.com...
Quote:
On Fri, 01 Feb 2013 14:38:10 -0500, krw_at_attt.bizz wrote:

On Fri, 1 Feb 2013 18:17:33 -0000, "Ian Field"
gangprobing.alien_at_ntlworld.com> wrote:

With NiMh, its accustomed practice to give the cells a few charge cycles
to
work up to their full performance - does the same apply to Li-Ion?

Recently I bought a 3W Li-Ion LED handlamp and I've spent more time
recharging the battery than actually using it! Every time I've gone to
use
it I've found that the battery has self discharged and is totally flat.

That shouldn't happen. The self-discharge of LiIon batteries should
be measured in years. At the PPoE, after four years on the shelf we
found "new" batteries still had over half charge.

Although there is no mention of full charge cycling in the instruction
booklet, I tried charging it then running it down in a single session to
cycle the battery - there seems to be some improvement, but its still too
soon to tell for sure.

Cycling LiIon batteries is often recommended but not so much to
condition the battery as to reset/calibrate the charging circuit.
Laptops, in particular, track the charge of batteries and the charger
needs to learn a "new" battery. The cells themselves don't need any
"reforming" or anything.

Any comments on the correct care of Li-Ion batteries are welcome.

They're really pretty simple to use but don't take gross abuse well.
It sounds like you have a defective battery or perhaps more likely, a
defective appliance.

Or a defective battery charger


I think the wall wart is the same as supplied for that store-chain's "stick"
type LED worklight with NiMh batteries - AFAIK all the electronics for
controlling charge to the Li-Ion are in the lamp.

asdf
Guest

Sat Feb 02, 2013 2:41 am   



On Fri, 01 Feb 2013 21:42:16 +0000, Ian Field wrote:

Quote:
Maybe 2-3 weeks, I'd expect the battery to stay up a lot longer than
that!

Yes, it should be definitely more than that.
Is the battery easily replaceable without voiding the warranty?

Quote:
The instructions warn to disconnect the wall-wart from the lamp when not
charging, to prevent discharge

Huh? I would expect at least a diode in series to protect the wall-wart
and/or the battery. If they had to save one diode they probably went also
for a cheap safety circuit. Just speculation, though it would explain
something.

Quote:
if having cycled the battery shows no improvement, I can decide to
return it or write off the loss & indulge in a bit of reverse
engineering.

I would return it too.

Mike S.
Guest

Sat Feb 02, 2013 3:03 am   



In article <NLWOs.102108$C05.77717_at_fx31.fr7>,
Ian Field <gangprobing.alien_at_ntlworld.com> wrote:
Quote:


krw_at_attt.bizz> wrote in message
news:626og850qr4fpq4b3akk9c3g309etcj9mk_at_4ax.com...
On Fri, 1 Feb 2013 18:17:33 -0000, "Ian Field"
gangprobing.alien_at_ntlworld.com> wrote:

With NiMh, its accustomed practice to give the cells a few charge cycles
to
work up to their full performance - does the same apply to Li-Ion?

Recently I bought a 3W Li-Ion LED handlamp and I've spent more time
recharging the battery than actually using it! Every time I've gone to use
it I've found that the battery has self discharged and is totally flat.

That shouldn't happen. The self-discharge of LiIon batteries should
be measured in years. At the PPoE, after four years on the shelf we
found "new" batteries still had over half charge.

Although there is no mention of full charge cycling in the instruction
booklet, I tried charging it then running it down in a single session to
cycle the battery - there seems to be some improvement, but its still too
soon to tell for sure.

Cycling LiIon batteries is often recommended but not so much to
condition the battery as to reset/calibrate the charging circuit.
Laptops, in particular, track the charge of batteries and the charger
needs to learn a "new" battery. The cells themselves don't need any
"reforming" or anything.

The instructions say its protected from overcharging - but nontheless
shouldn't be left charging for long periods after the charge indicator LED
changes from red to green.

When I cycled the battery - towards the end of discharge I could hear the
oscillator whine getting lower, AFAIK there is no indicator of excessive
discharge, I didn't continue the discharge to see if there's an automatic
UVLO, as I understand that Li-Ion won't recharge if over discharged.

Is the battery removeable? For a flashlight I'd guess yes.

The behavior and danger of overcharging and overdischarging depends on
whether the cell has a protection circuit. If it's a cylindrical cell,
it's easy to tell as it's a thin metallic disc shrink-wrapped on the end
of the cell.

Even if the cell or charger protects against overcharging, it is not a
good idea to leave it charging indefinitely as the heat generated will
eventually degrade the cell. Conditions of high temperature and high
voltage are the most harmful to LiIon cells.

Protection against overdischarging is necessary because below ~1v or so
the copper electrode will go into solution. If such a cell is charged
again, the copper then turns back to metal within the electrolyte, forming
shunts that act as short-circuits leading to explosion.

The over-discharge behavior depends on whether there is a protection
circuit. A protected cell will typicially cut off at ~2.5V and go to
sleep; a "smart" charger will refuse to charge it until the protection
circuit is awakened by force-charging it momentarily at low current.
Of course, by doing that you assume all risk if the cell's voltage is
really much lower than 2.5V.

An unprotected cell will keep putting out juice for longer, leading to an
over-discharged cell that is dangerous to charge again.

Ian Field
Guest

Sat Feb 02, 2013 4:20 pm   



"asdf" <asdf_at_nospam.com> wrote in message
news:kehnc7$vl4$1_at_speranza.aioe.org...
Quote:
On Fri, 01 Feb 2013 21:42:16 +0000, Ian Field wrote:

Maybe 2-3 weeks, I'd expect the battery to stay up a lot longer than
that!

Yes, it should be definitely more than that.
Is the battery easily replaceable without voiding the warranty?

The instructions warn to disconnect the wall-wart from the lamp when not
charging, to prevent discharge

Huh? I would expect at least a diode in series to protect the wall-wart
and/or the battery. If they had to save one diode they probably went also
for a cheap safety circuit. Just speculation, though it would explain
something.

if having cycled the battery shows no improvement, I can decide to
return it or write off the loss & indulge in a bit of reverse
engineering.

I would return it too.


Learning usually comes at a cost - I could write off the loss and see what I
could learn reverse engineering the inverter.

A 3W LED would also be a welcome addition to the junk box - not a cost
effective trade in this instance, but I do get the reflector & mounting
thrown in.

I still have the option to return it, but if I get a lithium fire, I'll
definately be having words with the retailer!

legg
Guest

Sat Feb 02, 2013 4:25 pm   



On Fri, 1 Feb 2013 21:49:46 -0000, "Ian Field"
<gangprobing.alien_at_ntlworld.com> wrote:

Quote:


snip

When I cycled the battery - towards the end of discharge I could hear the
oscillator whine getting lower, AFAIK there is no indicator of excessive
discharge, I didn't continue the discharge to see if there's an automatic
UVLO, as I understand that Li-Ion won't recharge if over discharged.

Audibility of a charger is a fair indication of defect in either the
charger or load.

RL

Ian Field
Guest

Sat Feb 02, 2013 4:26 pm   



"Mike S." <retsuhcs_at_xinap.moc> wrote in message
news:kehoke$pjh$2_at_reader1.panix.com...
Quote:

In article <NLWOs.102108$C05.77717_at_fx31.fr7>,
Ian Field <gangprobing.alien_at_ntlworld.com> wrote:


krw_at_attt.bizz> wrote in message
news:626og850qr4fpq4b3akk9c3g309etcj9mk_at_4ax.com...
On Fri, 1 Feb 2013 18:17:33 -0000, "Ian Field"
gangprobing.alien_at_ntlworld.com> wrote:

With NiMh, its accustomed practice to give the cells a few charge cycles
to
work up to their full performance - does the same apply to Li-Ion?

Recently I bought a 3W Li-Ion LED handlamp and I've spent more time
recharging the battery than actually using it! Every time I've gone to
use
it I've found that the battery has self discharged and is totally flat.

That shouldn't happen. The self-discharge of LiIon batteries should
be measured in years. At the PPoE, after four years on the shelf we
found "new" batteries still had over half charge.

Although there is no mention of full charge cycling in the instruction
booklet, I tried charging it then running it down in a single session to
cycle the battery - there seems to be some improvement, but its still
too
soon to tell for sure.

Cycling LiIon batteries is often recommended but not so much to
condition the battery as to reset/calibrate the charging circuit.
Laptops, in particular, track the charge of batteries and the charger
needs to learn a "new" battery. The cells themselves don't need any
"reforming" or anything.

The instructions say its protected from overcharging - but nontheless
shouldn't be left charging for long periods after the charge indicator LED
changes from red to green.

When I cycled the battery - towards the end of discharge I could hear the
oscillator whine getting lower, AFAIK there is no indicator of excessive
discharge, I didn't continue the discharge to see if there's an automatic
UVLO, as I understand that Li-Ion won't recharge if over discharged.

Is the battery removeable? For a flashlight I'd guess yes.

The behavior and danger of overcharging and overdischarging depends on
whether the cell has a protection circuit. If it's a cylindrical cell,
it's easy to tell as it's a thin metallic disc shrink-wrapped on the end
of the cell.

Even if the cell or charger protects against overcharging, it is not a
good idea to leave it charging indefinitely as the heat generated will
eventually degrade the cell. Conditions of high temperature and high
voltage are the most harmful to LiIon cells.

Protection against overdischarging is necessary because below ~1v or so
the copper electrode will go into solution. If such a cell is charged
again, the copper then turns back to metal within the electrolyte, forming
shunts that act as short-circuits leading to explosion.

The over-discharge behavior depends on whether there is a protection
circuit. A protected cell will typicially cut off at ~2.5V and go to
sleep; a "smart" charger will refuse to charge it until the protection
circuit is awakened by force-charging it momentarily at low current.
Of course, by doing that you assume all risk if the cell's voltage is
really much lower than 2.5V.

An unprotected cell will keep putting out juice for longer, leading to an
over-discharged cell that is dangerous to charge again.

A few good points to take noteof there.

Its a pistol grip lamp with a 3W LED main beam plus a low power ring of LEDs
around the rim of the reflector & a panel of LED on the side for "map
reading".

None of the internal parts are accessible without voiding the warranty.

Ian Field
Guest

Sat Feb 02, 2013 7:05 pm   



"legg" <legg_at_nospam.magma.ca> wrote in message
news:asbqg8to90ebmdccg1habkm069l7ju2oqu_at_4ax.com...
Quote:
On Fri, 1 Feb 2013 21:49:46 -0000, "Ian Field"
gangprobing.alien_at_ntlworld.com> wrote:



snip

When I cycled the battery - towards the end of discharge I could hear the
oscillator whine getting lower, AFAIK there is no indicator of excessive
discharge, I didn't continue the discharge to see if there's an automatic
UVLO, as I understand that Li-Ion won't recharge if over discharged.

Audibility of a charger is a fair indication of defect in either the
charger or load.


Well it run for longer than the claimed endurance when I tried cycling the
battery, so there can't be that much wrong with the charge circuit or
inverter.

Discovering whether self discharge takes a decent length of time - takes a
decent length of time!

BEN
Guest

Mon Jun 09, 2014 12:19 am   



responding to
http://www.electrondepot.com/components/using-li-ion-batteries-33340-.htm ,
BEN wrote:
Quote:
gangprobing.alien wrote:

With NiMh, its accustomed practice to give the cells a few charge cycles
to
work up to their full performance - does the same apply to Li-Ion?

Recently I bought a 3W Li-Ion LED handlamp and I've spent more time
recharging the battery than actually using it! Every time I've gone to
use
it I've found that the battery has self discharged and is totally flat.

Although there is no mention of full charge cycling in the instruction
booklet, I tried charging it then running it down in a single session to

cycle the battery - there seems to be some improvement, but its still
too
soon to tell for sure.

Any comments on the correct care of Li-Ion batteries are welcome.

Thanks.



What type of battery is it. cyl 18650? I have several flashlights that use
18650. 1000 lumens to 6000 lumens. None of the batteries discharge
whatsoever. Many of these flashlights use an LED voltage controller (driver )
It may be defective draining the battery, but the battery should not be
connected if the switch is off..!!! I purchased mine from a china market and
they will hold voltage for at least a month with a Vdrop of less than 10
percent Will the battery go flat if not in the flashlight? If so bad battery
or the built in battery charge controller is bad.
Ben

Ian Field
Guest

Mon Jun 09, 2014 1:28 am   



"BEN" <f6ceedb9c75b52f7fcc0a55cf0cfbf5d_984_at_example.com> wrote in message
news:99453$5394a918$43de0cc0$31701_at_news.flashnewsgroups.com...
Quote:
responding to
http://www.electrondepot.com/components/using-li-ion-batteries-33340-.htm
,
BEN wrote:
gangprobing.alien wrote:

With NiMh, its accustomed practice to give the cells a few charge cycles
to work up to their full performance - does the same apply to Li-Ion?
Recently I bought a 3W Li-Ion LED handlamp and I've spent more time
recharging the battery than actually using it! Every time I've gone to
use it I've found that the battery has self discharged and is totally
flat. Although there is no mention of full charge cycling in the
instruction booklet, I tried charging it then running it down in a
single session to
cycle the battery - there seems to be some improvement, but its still
too soon to tell for sure. Any comments on the correct care of Li-Ion
batteries are welcome. Thanks.

What type of battery is it. cyl 18650? I have several flashlights that
use
18650. 1000 lumens to 6000 lumens. None of the batteries discharge
whatsoever.


Haven't opened it to have a look - presumably it will eventually deteriorate
to not very long running time.

Allegedly, it has a 3-yr warranty and I still have the box it came in, but
its a Lidl stores weekly offer that I'd have to wait for them to come around
again.

It has a 2200mAh battery which it claims should run the 5W LED spot light
for 2-hrs.

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