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John Doe
Guest

Sun Dec 16, 2018 3:45 pm   



Jeff Liebermann <jeffl_at_cruzio.com> wrote:

Quote:
John Doe <always.look_at_message.header> wrote:
Jeff Liebermann <jeffl_at_cruzio.com> wrote:

I have some opinions on what's wrong with the quadcopter.
However, I'll wait until I see some voltage and current
measurements and graphs performed in a test stand (like your
chair test). My guess(tm) is that this sounds like a high
resistance connection between the battery and the ESC
(electronic speed control). Something seems to be prematurely
announcing that the battery is depleted. An unwanted voltage
drop in the wiring would do that.

I suspect there's something weird going on in this particular
drone, but the low-voltage warning can be set low enough to get
full use out of lithium polymer batteries.

I can see that I'm not getting through to you. Please excuse my
abrasive, rude, undiplomatic, and short tempered manners.


That sounds bizarre.

Quote:
Here's what you should be doing:

1. Setup your drone in a manner similar to Jan Panteltje's test
chair:
http://panteltje.com/pub/hubsan_h501s_current_test_full_throttle_I
MG_6290.JPG

2. Take DVM and place it across the battery terminals as close to
the actual battery as possible. You want to measure the actual
battery voltage.

3. Take a 2nd DVM and place it as close to the place where the
ESC distributes the power to the various motors. That would be
the DC input to the ESC. If the low voltage measurement device is
located elsewhere, use that connection.

4. If you have an adapter for your XT60 battery connector for
current measurement, attach it and also record the current draw
ever 30 seconds.

5. Run the drone in the chair at something resembling normal
flight RPM (not full power). With a paper pad and pen, record the
voltages every 30 seconds. When the low voltage alarm is
triggered, record the time. Let it run until the controller or
ESC declares the battery to be discharged. Draw a graph. If my
guess is correct, the graph will look very strange and that there
will be a substantial voltage difference between the battery
terminal voltage and the ESC voltage.

I might try lithium ions for some other drone, but that's it for
this one. The lithium-ion pack I made for the controller is
working superbly.

Really. Have you calculated what your runtime should be based on
the average current drain and battery ma-hr rating? Be sure to
check the data sheet for the LiIon cells for the ma-hr capacity at
whatever current your motors are drawing. How close is your
flight time to the theoretical runtime?


My flight time using slightly larger than stock lithium polymers is
almost 15 minutes, that is GREATER THAN the theoretical flight time of
12-14 minutes for stock batteries, for this drone.

First person view (FPV) drone flying is a complex hobby. There are
many other things that need doing. Great hobby for anyone who enjoys
flight simulation and electronics. The FPV capability can be easily
installed in remote control cars as well. And tanks...

John Doe
Guest

Sun Dec 16, 2018 3:45 pm   



<698839253X6D445TD_at_nospam.org> wrote:

Quote:
And I did put 3 eneloop 1.5 V AAA batteries in it so it is always
ready.


Eneloops are 1.2 V per cell.

Carl
Guest

Sun Dec 16, 2018 5:45 pm   



"Jeff Liebermann" wrote in message
news:cbqb1e54jocu531d8fipes1ig11rdbo9ie_at_4ax.com...
Quote:

On Sat, 15 Dec 2018 21:14:59 -0500, "Carl"
carl.ijamesXYZ_at_ZYXverizon.net> wrote:

https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=MASTECH+MS2109a

MS2109a data sheet:
http://www.mastech-group.com/products.php?cate=95&PNo=209

More Mastech clamp meters:
http://www.mastech-group.com/products.php?cate=95
http://www.mastech-group.com/products.php?cate=95&page=2

I've got two Uni-T meters (http://www.uni-trend.com/), both 4000 count
models, one a true RMS autoranging DVM and the other a clamp ammeter DVM,
model UT204 which does AC and DC and autoranges between 40A and 400A
scales.

True RMS would be nice to have, but is not necessary for what I expect
to be mostly DC current measurements.

Sigh. I went to the Uni-T web pile and tried to look for meters.
Every link link I click returns a "404" (nobody home). Despite my
having an uncontrollable urge to buy something immediately, I'll wait
a day or two for someone to fix the Uni-T web pile or server.


Don't understand this, I checked their site just before posting my first
reply and again just before posting this, and had no problems.

Quote:

I've used it to check starter draw on a car and the output of a 10W solar
panel (0.22 A that day) and I'm happy with it. They have lots of models


I had my other meter in series and both agreed at 0.22A within about 0.01 or
0.02A. I was pretty impressed how low the clamp on could go, 40A and 4000
counts makes the LSD 0.01A.

Quote:
with different features, and lots of sellers on amazon and ebay. The
Uni-T
meters seems to have good accuracy and useful features,

Thanks. I'll do some reading and see what they have to offer.

but get their low
cost from slow settling times. Over a second per screen update and often
three updates to get a stable reading so 3-5 seconds total. For my needs
that works.

If you don't use a clamp-on meter be sure to check the manual for your
meter. Lots of the cheaper meters with a 10A scale bury a truly wimpy
duty
cycle in the fine print. I've seen 15 seconds of 10A measurement followed
by ten-plus minutes of required cooldown in at least one of the Uni-T
meters
and some other brand I can't remember right now.

Argh. I didn't realize that this was a problem with DC clamp meters.


I guess I wasn't clear enough, the non-clamp meters can have the duty cycle
issue but so far as I know none of the clamp on meters have a problem -
that's whey I said "If you don't use a clamp-on meter ...".

Quote:
I just skimmed the Mastech MS2109a manual
https://panda-bg.com/datasheet/2145-340549-MS2109A-clamp-meter-mastech.pdf
but didn't find any mention of a cool down period.
For sampling rate, it claims:
"Sampling rate: about 3 times/s, simulation bar 30 times/s."
Incidentally, the highest count is 5999 which is needed for the 600A
scale.


--
Regards,
Carl Ijames

Steve Wilson
Guest

Sun Dec 16, 2018 5:45 pm   



"Carl" <carl.ijamesXYZ_at_ZYXverizon.net> wrote:

Quote:
"Jeff Liebermann" wrote in message
news:cbqb1e54jocu531d8fipes1ig11rdbo9ie_at_4ax.com...

Sigh. I went to the Uni-T web pile and tried to look for meters.
Every link link I click returns a "404" (nobody home). Despite my
having an uncontrollable urge to buy something immediately, I'll wait a
day or two for someone to fix the Uni-T web pile or server.

Don't understand this, I checked their site just before posting my first
reply and again just before posting this, and had no problems.


What browser and OS are you using?

I just checked with Firefox 52.9.0 on XP (same as Jeff) and Firefox 64.0 on
Win7.

Both gave 404 errors on all links.

Can't even contact them to tell them their site is down.

http://www.uni-trend.com/contact.html

How are you able to get pages?

Carl
Guest

Sun Dec 16, 2018 10:45 pm   



"Steve Wilson" wrote in message
news:XnsA9BA75592A958idtokenpost_at_69.16.179.23...
Quote:

"Carl" <carl.ijamesXYZ_at_ZYXverizon.net> wrote:

"Jeff Liebermann" wrote in message
news:cbqb1e54jocu531d8fipes1ig11rdbo9ie_at_4ax.com...

Sigh. I went to the Uni-T web pile and tried to look for meters.
Every link link I click returns a "404" (nobody home). Despite my
having an uncontrollable urge to buy something immediately, I'll wait a
day or two for someone to fix the Uni-T web pile or server.

Don't understand this, I checked their site just before posting my first
reply and again just before posting this, and had no problems.

What browser and OS are you using?

I just checked with Firefox 52.9.0 on XP (same as Jeff) and Firefox 64.0 on
Win7.

Both gave 404 errors on all links.

Can't even contact them to tell them their site is down.

http://www.uni-trend.com/contact.html

How are you able to get pages?


Firefox 64.0 32 bit on Win 7 Ultimate 32 bit. I may have updated Firefox
between my two posts, or maybe after the second one but definitely 64.0 now
and it works (can't remember exactly when I told Firefox to update vs.
posting), and the previous version was the most recent one before 64.0.
Weirdly, I clicked on your contact link and got a 404 page in Chinese. Then
tried just "www.uni-trend.com" and got the home page in english, as always.

--
Regards,
Carl Ijames

Steve Wilson
Guest

Sun Dec 16, 2018 10:45 pm   



"Carl" <carl.ijamesXYZ_at_ZYXverizon.net> wrote:

Quote:
"Steve Wilson" wrote in message
news:XnsA9BA75592A958idtokenpost_at_69.16.179.23...

"Carl" <carl.ijamesXYZ_at_ZYXverizon.net> wrote:

"Jeff Liebermann" wrote in message
news:cbqb1e54jocu531d8fipes1ig11rdbo9ie_at_4ax.com...

Sigh. I went to the Uni-T web pile and tried to look for meters.
Every link link I click returns a "404" (nobody home). Despite my
having an uncontrollable urge to buy something immediately, I'll wait
a day or two for someone to fix the Uni-T web pile or server.

Don't understand this, I checked their site just before posting my
first reply and again just before posting this, and had no problems.

What browser and OS are you using?

I just checked with Firefox 52.9.0 on XP (same as Jeff) and Firefox 64.0
on Win7.

Both gave 404 errors on all links.

Can't even contact them to tell them their site is down.

http://www.uni-trend.com/contact.html

How are you able to get pages?

Firefox 64.0 32 bit on Win 7 Ultimate 32 bit. I may have updated
Firefox between my two posts, or maybe after the second one but
definitely 64.0 now and it works (can't remember exactly when I told
Firefox to update vs. posting), and the previous version was the most
recent one before 64.0. Weirdly, I clicked on your contact link and got
a 404 page in Chinese. Then tried just "www.uni-trend.com" and got the
home page in english, as always.


Thanks for the reply.

I just tried Firefox 64.0 on Win7 Pro 32 bit. Same result using "www.uni-
trend.com". 404

Wierd.

Jeff Liebermann
Guest

Sun Dec 16, 2018 10:45 pm   



On Sun, 16 Dec 2018 14:17:22 -0000 (UTC), John Doe
<always.look_at_message.header> wrote:

Quote:
698839253X6D445TD_at_nospam.org> wrote:

And I did put 3 eneloop 1.5 V AAA batteries in it so it is always
ready.

Eneloops are 1.2 V per cell.


Yep, that MIGHT be a problem. Let's do the numbers.

Discharge curve for a AAA Eneloop NiMH cell:
<http://eneloop101.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/BK-4HCC.pdf>
compared with a Duracell CopperTop alkaline AAA cell:
<https://d2ei442zrkqy2u.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/MN2400_US_CT1.pdf>

According to the MS2108a manual (Pg 1Cool, the low battery indicator
will complain at 3.7V or 1.23V per cell. I don't know how much
current the MS2108a will draw from the battery, so I just measured the
current drain on a Radio Shack 22-178 that runs off two AA cells. I
measured 330 microamps, so a 3 cell arrangement should draw 220
microamps.

Inspecting the graphs for the two types of batteries, and
extrapolating the family of curves to something around 220 microamps,
I find that the alkaline will last >900 hrs before the voltage drops
to 1.23v, while the Eneloop will last about the same >900 hrs. So, no
benefit in operating time.

Running the backlighting in the MS2018a might increase the drain to
maybe 10ma, which might cause the battery low warning indicator to
appear. I suspect that will only a be a problem with an almost
depleted battery.

However, the alkaline cells leak (badly) and are not rechargeable.
Eneloop cells are LSD (low self discharge) and will be ready when you
need to make measurements. I've been systematically replacing my
various AA and AAA cells with Eneloop NiMH cells, and my 9V batteries
with rechargeable LiIon equivalents.


--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl_at_cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

Jeff Liebermann
Guest

Sun Dec 16, 2018 11:45 pm   



On Sun, 16 Dec 2018 11:04:57 -0500, "Carl"
<carl.ijamesXYZ_at_ZYXverizon.net> wrote:

Quote:
Sigh. I went to the Uni-T web pile and tried to look for meters.
Every link link I click returns a "404" (nobody home). Despite my
having an uncontrollable urge to buy something immediately, I'll wait
a day or two for someone to fix the Uni-T web pile or server.

Don't understand this, I checked their site just before posting my first
reply and again just before posting this, and had no problems.


Probably the Great Firewall of China at its best. I have 3 machines
in front of me. XP, Win 7, and ChromeOS. XP and Win 7 have Firefox,
Chrome, Internet Exploder, and Vivaldi running.
<http://www.uni-trend.com>
XP and Win 7 show:
404 - File or directory not found.
The resource you are looking for may have been deleted,
the name has been changed, or it is temporarily unavailable.
on all browsers as translated from the original Chinese by Google
Translate.

I also cleared the Firefox and Chrome browser cache and reloaded with
<shift><F5>. The Acer Chromebook 14 CB3-431-???? only runs Chrome,
but it too returns a 404. I thought it might be an ISP issue, so I
connected via the neighbors Comcast router. Same 404.

I also tried
<https://www.uni-trend.com>
but it would not connect. I also removed all cookies associated with
uni-trend.com, but the 404 error persisted. I also clicked on most
everything possible on the home page. Everything I tried resulted in
a 404 error.

Next, I did a fast port scan using nmap (actually Zenmap).
The server is running Microsoft Windoze Server 2008 Beta 3. Beta?
Nothing like 10 year old software. My best guess(tm) is that this
problem lives in the 10 year old server software:
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Microsoft_Windows_versions#Server_versions>

# nmap -T4 -F www.uni-trend.com
Starting Nmap 6.46 ( http://nmap.org )
at 2018-12-16 14:01 Pacific Standard Time
Nmap scan report for www.uni-trend.com (59.188.250.13)
Host is up (0.31s latency).
Not shown: 97 filtered ports
PORT STATE SERVICE
80/tcp open http
135/tcp open msrpc
49154/tcp open unknown
Nmap done: 1 IP address (1 host up) scanned in 7.64 seconds

Looks like they have a web server with WMI (windoze manglement
interface) enabled to the internet. I can go on with this, but I
don't feel so good today and would prefer to do something else.

Quote:
I guess I wasn't clear enough, the non-clamp meters can have the duty cycle
issue but so far as I know none of the clamp on meters have a problem -
that's whey I said "If you don't use a clamp-on meter ...".


Oh, now I see. I was wondering what might be getting warm when using
a clamp type ammeter. Having smoked a few DVM's in the distant past,
I don't like running high current through them. I have a small
collection of shunt resistors that work quite well.


--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl_at_cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

Jeff Liebermann
Guest

Mon Dec 17, 2018 12:45 am   



On Sun, 16 Dec 2018 15:53:07 -0500, "Carl"
<carl.ijamesXYZ_at_ZYXverizon.net> wrote:

Quote:
Weirdly, I clicked on your contact link and got a 404 page in Chinese. Then
tried just "www.uni-trend.com" and got the home page in english, as always.


Just to clarify things, I was able to get the home page at:
<http://www.uni-trend.com> on all my machines and with all browsers.
The home page worked. What doesn't work for me are any of the links
and buttons on the home page.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl_at_cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

Carl
Guest

Mon Dec 17, 2018 4:44 am   



"Jeff Liebermann" wrote in message
news:dknd1epbl8r0repr0basd1b1g3u1oc8757_at_4ax.com...
Quote:

On Sun, 16 Dec 2018 15:53:07 -0500, "Carl"
carl.ijamesXYZ_at_ZYXverizon.net> wrote:

Weirdly, I clicked on your contact link and got a 404 page in Chinese.
Then
tried just "www.uni-trend.com" and got the home page in english, as
always.

Just to clarify things, I was able to get the home page at:
http://www.uni-trend.com> on all my machines and with all browsers.
The home page worked. What doesn't work for me are any of the links
and buttons on the home page.


I thought you meant that the home page gave you 404. Before my first reply
I followed several links from the home page to get specs on a few meters,
and all worked as expected. Now, after reading your post I tried that again
and now I get 404 everywhere, too. I even went back into my history and
tried to go to a couple of the pages I visited yesterday and now they also
give 404. So, now I can't get anything at their site, either. I have no
idea how to make progress so I think I'll give up until the next time I need
a meter Smile. Good luck if you decide to keep trying.

--
Regards,
Carl Ijames


Guest

Mon Dec 17, 2018 9:45 am   



Jeff Liebermann
Quote:
I also tried
https://www.uni-trend.com
but it would not connect. I also removed all cookies associated with
uni-trend.com, but the 404 error persisted. I also clicked on most
everything possible on the home page. Everything I tried resulted in
a 404 error.


http://www.uni-trend.com
is working OK here in Europe, automatically changes from Chinese to English somehow.
Linux Seamonkey, but the menus give a Chinese text and error 404.
It is not your browser

BTW before I bought that MS2108 I did some googling and watched some youtube videos
about both the uni-trend and the Mastech meters,
the choice was not hard to make.
It is funny if you see somebody advertising a meter by comparing it to an other one and the scale tips the other way all the time Smile
Hey, I have no shares in either ..

Joseph Gwinn
Guest

Mon Dec 17, 2018 7:45 pm   



On Dec 16, 2018, Jeff Liebermann wrote
(in article<dknd1epbl8r0repr0basd1b1g3u1oc8757_at_4ax.com>):

Quote:
On Sun, 16 Dec 2018 15:53:07 -0500, "Carl"
carl.ijamesXYZ_at_ZYXverizon.net> wrote:

Weirdly, I clicked on your contact link and got a 404 page in Chinese. Then
tried just "www.uni-trend.com" and got the home page in english, as always.

Just to clarify things, I was able to get the home page at:
http://www.uni-trend.com> on all my machines and with all browsers.
The home page worked. What doesn't work for me are any of the links
and buttons on the home page.


For me (Boston area), <http://www.uni-trend.com> works
but<https://www.uni-trend.com> does not. The difference is http versus
httpS. If the Chinese want to listen in, it makes sense to forbid https.

Joe Gwinn

John Doe
Guest

Tue Dec 18, 2018 5:45 pm   



Joseph Gwinn <joegwinn_at_comcast.net> wrote:

Quote:
Jeff Liebermann wrote
"Carl" <carl.ijamesXYZ_at_ZYXverizon.net> wrote:

Weirdly, I clicked on your contact link and got a 404 page in
Chinese. Then tried just "www.uni-trend.com" and got the home
page in english, as always.

Just to clarify things, I was able to get the home page at:
http://www.uni-trend.com> on all my machines and with all
browsers. The home page worked. What doesn't work for me are any
of the links and buttons on the home page.

For me (Boston area)


I doubt the area makes any difference.

Quote:
http://www.uni-trend.com> works
but<https://www.uni-trend.com> does not. The difference is http
versus httpS. If the Chinese want to listen in, it makes sense to
forbid https.


Yes that works. And your explanation makes sense.

You do want buffers when dealing with Chinese stuff. A small percentage
difference is worth it. And branding is critical, no matter how hard
China tries to destroy it.

John Doe
Guest

Thu Jan 03, 2019 3:45 am   



<698839253X6D445TD_at_nospam.org> wrote:

Quote:
BTW I use a MASTECH MS2108 Digital True RMS Clamp Multimeter AC DC
Voltage Frequency Tester


Is that or the Mastech MS2109A clamp meter sensitive enough to
meaningfully measure changes in total current like when you add or
remove a video transmitter?

Thanks.

John Doe
Guest

Sat Mar 16, 2019 9:45 am   



I'm using a Bugs 3, a cheap drone that can carry a little weight.

Using Sanyo NCR20700A I got at least 19 minutes. Still had the same
problem of discharging to only 3.6 V.

Assuming that problem arises because the current sourcing isn't enough
when the voltage drops to 3.6 V, I'm wondering if paralleling smaller
batteries will help.

It cut off at 3.6 V. I think it should be down to at least 3 V. I felt
the batteries immediately after use, they were barely warm.

Question: I guess the answer is obvious, and I will test, but... Two
parallel batteries will source greater current at a low voltage than a
single battery?

Will see. Hopefully it will be more than the additional current draw
required for lifting the additional batteries. I have 10 pair of 18650
batteries that are factory paralleled. A pair fits into my charger as
if they are one battery. It will fit into a battery holder the same
way, four batteries in a 2X battery holder (with additional support).
Testing pair capacity now, should be over 4 amp hours.

















--

I'm putting it in this old thread because it's appropriately titled.
If the consensus were I should start a new thread, that would be fine.

Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next

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