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rickman
Guest
Guest
Sat Feb 06, 2010 8:19 pm
On Feb 5, 1:51 pm, "(see below)" <yaldni...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
Quote:
On 05/02/2010 18:19, in article
badc12c3-cb2b-4ce9-9543-237d60fc2...@o8g2000vbm.googlegroups.com, "Eric
Chomko" <pne.cho...@comcast.net> wrote:
Has anyone created a copy machine of an old system using an FPGA? I
was wondering if it would be possible to take an entire SWTPC 6800 and
compile the schematics and have it run on an FPGA board.? Wouldn't
even have to be the latest Xylinx product, I suspect.
I think such a project would valuable, and perhaps even more valuable if it
aimed to recreate a machine of the "heroic" era -- a 7094, an Atlas, or a
KDF9, say. Perhaps even a Stretch.
KDF9 had about 20K transistors, a few K logic transformers, and a comparable
number of diodes; less than 50K devices in total. I imagine this would be
easily accommodated on a modern FPGA. The big question would be whether to
go for functional equivalence, or whether to try to replicate the original
internal structures.
Documentation would be the main challenge for the latter.
--
Bill Findlay
surname><forename> chez blueyonder.co.uk
badc12c3-cb2b-4ce9-9543-237d60fc2...@o8g2000vbm.googlegroups.com, "Eric
Chomko" <pne.cho...@comcast.net> wrote:
Has anyone created a copy machine of an old system using an FPGA? I
was wondering if it would be possible to take an entire SWTPC 6800 and
compile the schematics and have it run on an FPGA board.? Wouldn't
even have to be the latest Xylinx product, I suspect.
I think such a project would valuable, and perhaps even more valuable if it
aimed to recreate a machine of the "heroic" era -- a 7094, an Atlas, or a
KDF9, say. Perhaps even a Stretch.
KDF9 had about 20K transistors, a few K logic transformers, and a comparable
number of diodes; less than 50K devices in total. I imagine this would be
easily accommodated on a modern FPGA. The big question would be whether to
go for functional equivalence, or whether to try to replicate the original
internal structures.
Documentation would be the main challenge for the latter.
--
Bill Findlay
surname><forename> chez blueyonder.co.uk
Heck, on an iCore 2 you might be able to run that under Spice! You
could probably even provide a graphical display of any front panel
lights!
Rick
Jecel
Guest
Guest
Sat Feb 06, 2010 8:34 pm
I try to keep a reasonably updated list of such projects at
http://www.merlintec.com:8080/hardware/31
-- Jecel
glen herrmannsfeldt
Guest
Guest
Sat Feb 06, 2010 9:10 pm
In comp.arch.fpga Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn_at_garlic.com> wrote:
(snip)
Quote:
in the early 80s los gatos did custom hardware for chip logic simulation
(LSM ... "losgatos state machine" ... then "logic simulation machine"
for publication) ... dozen plus rack boxes ... ran 50,000 times faster
faster than logic simulation in software on 3033
(LSM ... "losgatos state machine" ... then "logic simulation machine"
for publication) ... dozen plus rack boxes ... ran 50,000 times faster
faster than logic simulation in software on 3033
I remember when I first started working with computers I had a
book from our library about ECAP, IBM's Electronic Circuit
Analysis Program. I never saw or used the actual program,
and haven't heard about it since. I wonder where it went...
-- glen
Anne & Lynn Wheeler
Guest
Guest
Sun Feb 07, 2010 5:51 pm
glen herrmannsfeldt <gah_at_ugcs.caltech.edu> writes:
Quote:
I remember when I first started working with computers I had a
book from our library about ECAP, IBM's Electronic Circuit
Analysis Program. I never saw or used the actual program,
and haven't heard about it since. I wonder where it went...
book from our library about ECAP, IBM's Electronic Circuit
Analysis Program. I never saw or used the actual program,
and haven't heard about it since. I wonder where it went...
re:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2010c.html#71 using an FPGA to emulate a vintage computer
no direct knowledge and web search is rather sparse ... a couple IEEE
citations:
http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/Xplore/login.jsp?url=http%3A%2F%2Fieeexplore.ieee.org%2Fiel5%2F23%2F4335780%2F04335910.pdf%3Farnumber%3D4335910&authDecision=-203
http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/Xplore/login.jsp?url=http%3A%2F%2Fieeexplore.ieee.org%2Fiel5%2F6%2F5218140%2F05218152.pdf%3Farnumber%3D5218152&authDecision=-203
in the aftermath of the troubles of the early 90s ... there was push to
move to industry standard tools ... part of which involved transfer of
internal tools to chip tool vendors (and some number of the internal
chip tools people spending a lot of time with these vendors ... and then
some number leaving and joining external vendor).
I've mentioned recently porting nearly 60k statement pascal program
(that did circuit layout) to other platforms, as part of such a tool
transfer.
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2010b.html#74 Happy DEC-10 Day
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2010c.html#29 search engine history, was Happy DEC-10 Day
in the mid-80s ... internally, there was big push to expand a lot of
mainframe manufacturing capacity anticipating the market would double in
size by the early 90s. Not particularly "career enhancing" ... I made
some observation that computer hardware was becoming increasingly
commoditized ... resulting in thinner margins & profits ... which would
at least require significantly cutting the number of related employees
to stay out of the red. misc. past posts mentioning various (non)
"career enhancing":
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2007e.html#48 time spent/day on a computer
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2007f.html#30 The Perfect Computer - 36 bits?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2007r.html#6 The history of Structure capabilities
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2008l.html#23 Memories of ACC, IBM Channels and Mainframe Internet Devices
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2009c.html#54 THE runs in DOS box?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2009p.html#34 big iron mainframe vs. x86 servers
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2009r.html#49 "Portable" data centers
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2009r.html#50 "Portable" data centers
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2009s.html#4 While watching Biography about Bill Gates on CNBC last Night
--
42yrs virtualization experience (since Jan68), online at home since Mar1970
James Dow Allen
Guest
Guest
Sun Feb 07, 2010 11:44 pm
On Feb 7, 12:10 am, Al Kossow <a...@bitsavers.org> wrote:
Quote:
On 2/6/10 3:29 AM, James Dow Allen wrote:
a National Semiconducter subsidiary once tried to
emulate an IBM 3033 at full speed using Fairchild 100k parts.
... the reason for failure is interesting ...
.
I would be interested in what the reason for failure was.
I assume it wasn't the obvious chip-chip delays using commodity
ICs.
a National Semiconducter subsidiary once tried to
emulate an IBM 3033 at full speed using Fairchild 100k parts.
... the reason for failure is interesting ...
.
I would be interested in what the reason for failure was.
I assume it wasn't the obvious chip-chip delays using commodity
ICs.
I think you mean that chip-chip delays would be too obvious
to be interesting. :-)
The commodity high-speed ECL chips were almost in the
same ballpark as IBM's chips for speed and density, but
IBM's packaging was better in various ways. The one
difference I found "interesting" and which seemed to be
a significant factor in the slowdown was that IBM used
smaller circuit boards. Each signal was therefore
closer to the backplane, so closer to more chips total;
in other words the smaller circuit boards allowed IBM's
wiring to take better advantage, in some sense, of
the 3rd dimension!
I think there were other important factors in that
project's failure, but there's no need to start
any anti-NatSemi flamefest. :-)
James Dow Allen
H. Peter Anvin
Guest
Guest
Mon Feb 08, 2010 5:42 am
On 02/06/2010 10:34 AM, Jecel wrote:
Quote:
I try to keep a reasonably updated list of such projects at
http://www.merlintec.com:8080/hardware/31
http://www.merlintec.com:8080/hardware/31
You can add to that list:
http://www.abc80.org/~hpa/fpga/
-hpa
Mike Hore
Guest
Guest
Mon Feb 08, 2010 8:58 am
(see below) wrote:
Quote:
On 05/02/2010 18:19, in article
badc12c3-cb2b-4ce9-9543-237d60fc22d5_at_o8g2000vbm.googlegroups.com, "Eric
Chomko" <pne.chomko_at_comcast.net> wrote:
Has anyone created a copy machine of an old system using an FPGA? I
was wondering if it would be possible to take an entire SWTPC 6800 and
compile the schematics and have it run on an FPGA board.? Wouldn't
even have to be the latest Xylinx product, I suspect.
I think such a project would valuable, and perhaps even more valuable if it
aimed to recreate a machine of the "heroic" era -- a 7094, an Atlas, or a
KDF9, say. Perhaps even a Stretch.
badc12c3-cb2b-4ce9-9543-237d60fc22d5_at_o8g2000vbm.googlegroups.com, "Eric
Chomko" <pne.chomko_at_comcast.net> wrote:
Has anyone created a copy machine of an old system using an FPGA? I
was wondering if it would be possible to take an entire SWTPC 6800 and
compile the schematics and have it run on an FPGA board.? Wouldn't
even have to be the latest Xylinx product, I suspect.
I think such a project would valuable, and perhaps even more valuable if it
aimed to recreate a machine of the "heroic" era -- a 7094, an Atlas, or a
KDF9, say. Perhaps even a Stretch.
A KDF9, maybe, but Stretch? You'd have to be seriously masochistic, or
downright insane :-)
Cheers, Mike.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Mike Hore mike_horeREM_at_OVE.invalid.aapt.net.au
---------------------------------------------------------------
invalid
Guest
Guest
Mon Feb 08, 2010 9:19 am
"(see below)" <yaldnif.w_at_blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
news:C7921944.13537A%yaldnif.w_at_blueyonder.co.uk...
Quote:
On 05/02/2010 18:19, in article
badc12c3-cb2b-4ce9-9543-237d60fc22d5_at_o8g2000vbm.googlegroups.com, "Eric
Chomko" <pne.chomko_at_comcast.net> wrote:
Has anyone created a copy machine of an old system using an FPGA? I
was wondering if it would be possible to take an entire SWTPC 6800 and
compile the schematics and have it run on an FPGA board.? Wouldn't
even have to be the latest Xylinx product, I suspect.
I think such a project would valuable, and perhaps even more valuable if
it
aimed to recreate a machine of the "heroic" era -- a 7094, an Atlas, or a
KDF9, say. Perhaps even a Stretch.
KDF9 had about 20K transistors, a few K logic transformers, and a
comparable
number of diodes; less than 50K devices in total. I imagine this would be
easily accommodated on a modern FPGA. The big question would be whether to
go for functional equivalence, or whether to try to replicate the original
internal structures.
badc12c3-cb2b-4ce9-9543-237d60fc22d5_at_o8g2000vbm.googlegroups.com, "Eric
Chomko" <pne.chomko_at_comcast.net> wrote:
Has anyone created a copy machine of an old system using an FPGA? I
was wondering if it would be possible to take an entire SWTPC 6800 and
compile the schematics and have it run on an FPGA board.? Wouldn't
even have to be the latest Xylinx product, I suspect.
I think such a project would valuable, and perhaps even more valuable if
it
aimed to recreate a machine of the "heroic" era -- a 7094, an Atlas, or a
KDF9, say. Perhaps even a Stretch.
KDF9 had about 20K transistors, a few K logic transformers, and a
comparable
number of diodes; less than 50K devices in total. I imagine this would be
easily accommodated on a modern FPGA. The big question would be whether to
go for functional equivalence, or whether to try to replicate the original
internal structures.
If you want funtional equivalence to the KDF-9 instruction set,
then get yourself a copy of the Forth language.
Gregory Estrade
Guest
Guest
Mon Feb 08, 2010 11:05 am
On 6 fév, 19:34, Jecel <je...@merlintec.com> wrote:
Quote:
I try to keep a reasonably updated list of such projects at
http://www.merlintec.com:8080/hardware/31
-- Jecel
http://www.merlintec.com:8080/hardware/31
-- Jecel
You can add those too :
http://torlus.com/index.php?2007/12/05/208-oric-in-a-fpga-continued
http://torlus.com/index.php?2007/03/19/200-thomson-mo5-in-a-fpga
http://torlus.com/index.php?2007/01/31/198-hector-hrx-in-a-fpga
Someday, I will set up a dedicated page for all these projects
(see below)
Guest
Guest
Mon Feb 08, 2010 2:43 pm
On 08/02/2010 07:46, in article hkofgc$g56$1_at_news.eternal-september.org,
"Mike Hore" <mike_horeREM_at_OVE.invalid.aapt.net.au> wrote:
Quote:
(see below) wrote:
On 05/02/2010 18:19, in article
badc12c3-cb2b-4ce9-9543-237d60fc22d5_at_o8g2000vbm.googlegroups.com, "Eric
Chomko" <pne.chomko_at_comcast.net> wrote:
Has anyone created a copy machine of an old system using an FPGA? I
was wondering if it would be possible to take an entire SWTPC 6800 and
compile the schematics and have it run on an FPGA board.? Wouldn't
even have to be the latest Xylinx product, I suspect.
I think such a project would valuable, and perhaps even more valuable if it
aimed to recreate a machine of the "heroic" era -- a 7094, an Atlas, or a
KDF9, say. Perhaps even a Stretch.
A KDF9, maybe, but Stretch? You'd have to be seriously masochistic, or
downright insane
On 05/02/2010 18:19, in article
badc12c3-cb2b-4ce9-9543-237d60fc22d5_at_o8g2000vbm.googlegroups.com, "Eric
Chomko" <pne.chomko_at_comcast.net> wrote:
Has anyone created a copy machine of an old system using an FPGA? I
was wondering if it would be possible to take an entire SWTPC 6800 and
compile the schematics and have it run on an FPGA board.? Wouldn't
even have to be the latest Xylinx product, I suspect.
I think such a project would valuable, and perhaps even more valuable if it
aimed to recreate a machine of the "heroic" era -- a 7094, an Atlas, or a
KDF9, say. Perhaps even a Stretch.
A KDF9, maybe, but Stretch? You'd have to be seriously masochistic, or
downright insane
Very possibly. 8-)
--
Bill Findlay
<surname><forename> chez blueyonder.co.uk
(see below)
Guest
Guest
Mon Feb 08, 2010 2:52 pm
On 08/02/2010 08:19, in article hkohet$u7p$1_at_news.eternal-september.org,
"invalid" <invalid_at_invalid.invalid> wrote:
Quote:
"(see below)" <yaldnif.w_at_blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
news:C7921944.13537A%yaldnif.w_at_blueyonder.co.uk...
On 05/02/2010 18:19, in article
badc12c3-cb2b-4ce9-9543-237d60fc22d5_at_o8g2000vbm.googlegroups.com, "Eric
Chomko" <pne.chomko_at_comcast.net> wrote:
Has anyone created a copy machine of an old system using an FPGA? I
was wondering if it would be possible to take an entire SWTPC 6800 and
compile the schematics and have it run on an FPGA board.? Wouldn't
even have to be the latest Xylinx product, I suspect.
I think such a project would valuable, and perhaps even more valuable if it
aimed to recreate a machine of the "heroic" era -- a 7094, an Atlas, or a
KDF9, say. Perhaps even a Stretch.
KDF9 had about 20K transistors, a few K logic transformers, and a comparable
number of diodes; less than 50K devices in total. I imagine this would be
easily accommodated on a modern FPGA. The big question would be whether to
go for functional equivalence, or whether to try to replicate the original
internal structures.
If you want funtional equivalence to the KDF-9 instruction set,
then get yourself a copy of the Forth language.
news:C7921944.13537A%yaldnif.w_at_blueyonder.co.uk...
On 05/02/2010 18:19, in article
badc12c3-cb2b-4ce9-9543-237d60fc22d5_at_o8g2000vbm.googlegroups.com, "Eric
Chomko" <pne.chomko_at_comcast.net> wrote:
Has anyone created a copy machine of an old system using an FPGA? I
was wondering if it would be possible to take an entire SWTPC 6800 and
compile the schematics and have it run on an FPGA board.? Wouldn't
even have to be the latest Xylinx product, I suspect.
I think such a project would valuable, and perhaps even more valuable if it
aimed to recreate a machine of the "heroic" era -- a 7094, an Atlas, or a
KDF9, say. Perhaps even a Stretch.
KDF9 had about 20K transistors, a few K logic transformers, and a comparable
number of diodes; less than 50K devices in total. I imagine this would be
easily accommodated on a modern FPGA. The big question would be whether to
go for functional equivalence, or whether to try to replicate the original
internal structures.
If you want funtional equivalence to the KDF-9 instruction set,
then get yourself a copy of the Forth language.
While there are strong similarities between KDF9's Usercode assembly
language and FORTH, they are by no means functionally equivalent.
As it happens, I already have a prototype KDF9 running in my laptop -- but
implemented in software, not an FPGA. See:
<http://www.findlayw.plus.com/KDF9>
--
Bill Findlay
<surname><forename> chez blueyonder.co.uk
Jecel
Guest
Guest
Mon Feb 08, 2010 6:25 pm
On Feb 8, 2:42 am, H. Peter Anvin wrote:
Quote:
Thanks! This is doubly wonderful since not only do I love FPGA based
retrocomputing but am also very interested in the history of computing
of countries outside the better known US/UK stuff.
-- Jecel
Jecel
Guest
Guest
Mon Feb 08, 2010 6:28 pm
On Feb 8, 7:05 am, Gregory Estrade wrote:
Quote:
You can add those too :
http://torlus.com/index.php?2007/12/05/208-oric-in-a-fpga-continued
http://torlus.com/index.php?2007/03/19/200-thomson-mo5-in-a-fpga
http://torlus.com/index.php?2007/01/31/198-hector-hrx-in-a-fpga
Someday, I will set up a dedicated page for all these projects
http://torlus.com/index.php?2007/12/05/208-oric-in-a-fpga-continued
http://torlus.com/index.php?2007/03/19/200-thomson-mo5-in-a-fpga
http://torlus.com/index.php?2007/01/31/198-hector-hrx-in-a-fpga
Someday, I will set up a dedicated page for all these projects
Great! This subject really needs a whole wiki to itself rather than
just a page at a hard to remember address. This is on my "to do" list,
but it will be a while before I get to it.
-- Jecel
Al Kossow
Guest
Guest
Mon Feb 08, 2010 6:37 pm
On 2/8/10 9:07 AM, John Francis wrote:
Quote:
In article<C7921944.13537A%yaldnif.w_at_blueyonder.co.uk>,
(see below)<yaldnif.w_at_blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
I think such a project would valuable, and perhaps even more valuable if it
aimed to recreate a machine of the "heroic" era -- a 7094, an Atlas, or a
KDF9, say. Perhaps even a Stretch.
While I'd love to see an Atlas, I rather doubt any of the software survives.
(see below)<yaldnif.w_at_blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
I think such a project would valuable, and perhaps even more valuable if it
aimed to recreate a machine of the "heroic" era -- a 7094, an Atlas, or a
KDF9, say. Perhaps even a Stretch.
While I'd love to see an Atlas, I rather doubt any of the software survives.
Reviving early computing dinosaurs from the surviving DNA is difficult.
I would be interested in hearing if any Atlas software survives. Sadly, it appears that
the Titan software has been lost as well. The Computer History Musuem has paper copies of
Stretch diagnostics, which someone had been working on OCRing, but I've not heard anything
about that effort for over a year. 7090/94 is in better shape, and there are copies of software
for it, including FORTRAN, running in simulation.
Personally, I'm very interested in seeing B5500 running again. I'm hoping the MCP tapes we have
in the CHM archives are recoverable. I have scanned most of the software listings CHM has in the
archives and put them up on bitsavers.
There is also someone working on an implementation of the CDC 6600 derived from the original
engineering drawings.
Hans Pufal was working on microcode level simulation of the 360/30, working from reverese-engineered
microcode from the Field Engineering documents.
John Francis
Guest
Guest
Mon Feb 08, 2010 7:07 pm
In article <C7921944.13537A%yaldnif.w_at_blueyonder.co.uk>,
(see below) <yaldnif.w_at_blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
Quote:
I think such a project would valuable, and perhaps even more valuable if it
aimed to recreate a machine of the "heroic" era -- a 7094, an Atlas, or a
KDF9, say. Perhaps even a Stretch.
While I'd love to see an Atlas, I rather doubt any of the software survives.
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