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Guest

Mon Feb 24, 2020 6:45 pm   



Hey All,
I have seen this done and I never questioned it but now that I was
about to do it I'm wondering.
In a well pump house there are always lights being run on 120
volts. The pump runs on 240 volts though. The breaker at the panel in
the house that supplies power to the pump protects the heavy gauge
wire running to the pump house. Inside the pump house is lighter gauge
wiring running to the light. This wiring is connected to one leg of
the 240 volt power and to the neutral.
Does the 120 volt circuit need its own breaker in the pump house? I
have never noticed one in any pump house I've been in, and I have been
in several seeing as where I live most of the people I know are on a
well. But I'm thinking code must require another breaker to protect
the lighter gauge wire.
Anyway, wiring in the pump house is on hold until I know the
correct way.
Thanks,
Eric

Fox's Mercantile
Guest

Mon Feb 24, 2020 7:45 pm   



On 2/24/20 11:35 AM, etpm_at_whidbey.com wrote:
> Does the 120 volt circuit need its own breaker in the pump house?

In a word, yes.
120 volt lighting typically is #14 AWG and requires a 15 amp breaker.
120 volt outlets should be #12 AWG and require a 20 amp breaker.
A simple sub-panel in the well house with a "quad" breaker would be
the simplest solution.
<https://www.zoro.com/static/cms/product/full/Z1wBpzmcpEx_.JPG>



--
"I am a river to my people."
Jeff-1.0
WA6FWi
http:foxsmercantile.com

pfjw@aol.com
Guest

Mon Feb 24, 2020 7:45 pm   



Main feed to breaker-box in pump-house.
In breaker-box, one double-pole breaker to pump.
One single-pole breaker to lights.
One single-pole breaker to receptacle(s).

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

Ralph Mowery
Guest

Mon Feb 24, 2020 7:45 pm   



In article <idWdnZ___5rWjcnDnZ2dnUU7-VvNnZ2d_at_giganews.com>,
jdangus_at_att.net says...
Quote:
Does the 120 volt circuit need its own breaker in the pump house?

In a word, yes.
120 volt lighting typically is #14 AWG and requires a 15 amp breaker.
120 volt outlets should be #12 AWG and require a 20 amp breaker.
A simple sub-panel in the well house with a "quad" breaker would be
the simplest solution.
https://www.zoro.com/static/cms/product/full/Z1wBpzmcpEx_.JPG




I admitt that I do not have any idea about the code. However if it is
just a simple light maybe it is like in most homes. The wire going from
the actual light socket is often much lighter than the wire that is ran
to it and the breaker is sized for.

Main concern in most cases is that a true neutral wire and there is
ground wire, or are they cheating and using the ground wire for the
neutral ?

KenW
Guest

Mon Feb 24, 2020 8:45 pm   



On Mon, 24 Feb 2020 09:35:53 -0800, etpm_at_whidbey.com wrote:

Quote:
Hey All,
I have seen this done and I never questioned it but now that I was
about to do it I'm wondering.
In a well pump house there are always lights being run on 120
volts. The pump runs on 240 volts though. The breaker at the panel in
the house that supplies power to the pump protects the heavy gauge
wire running to the pump house. Inside the pump house is lighter gauge
wiring running to the light. This wiring is connected to one leg of
the 240 volt power and to the neutral.
Does the 120 volt circuit need its own breaker in the pump house? I
have never noticed one in any pump house I've been in, and I have been
in several seeing as where I live most of the people I know are on a
well. But I'm thinking code must require another breaker to protect
the lighter gauge wire.
Anyway, wiring in the pump house is on hold until I know the
correct way.
Thanks,
Eric


Search for > how does a 240v breaker work< both sides are protected


KenW

Michael Terrell
Guest

Mon Feb 24, 2020 8:45 pm   



On Monday, February 24, 2020 at 1:32:54 PM UTC-5, Ralph Mowery wrote:
Quote:

I admit that I do not have any idea about the code. However if it is
just a simple light maybe it is like in most homes. The wire going from
the actual light socket is often much lighter than the wire that is ran
to it and the breaker is sized for.

Main concern in most cases is that a true neutral wire and there is
ground wire, or are they cheating and using the ground wire for the
neutral ?


I have run into wells that ran the light from one side of the 240VAC, to the well casing. There was no neutral or ground wire run to the building. These were all built in the '64 and '65 time frame by the same well driller, and before there was a local building code for pump houses.

My well pump has 240 for the pump, a 120V circuit for lights and another for a small heater. These are in a nearby laundry building, since there is no door on the pump cover. There is also a digital wattmeter for the pump, to see if it is running properly.


Guest

Wed Feb 26, 2020 6:45 pm   



On Mon, 24 Feb 2020 13:32:45 -0500, Ralph Mowery
<rmowery28146_at_earthlink.net> wrote:

Quote:
In article <idWdnZ___5rWjcnDnZ2dnUU7-VvNnZ2d_at_giganews.com>,
jdangus_at_att.net says...
Does the 120 volt circuit need its own breaker in the pump house?

In a word, yes.
120 volt lighting typically is #14 AWG and requires a 15 amp breaker.
120 volt outlets should be #12 AWG and require a 20 amp breaker.
A simple sub-panel in the well house with a "quad" breaker would be
the simplest solution.
https://www.zoro.com/static/cms/product/full/Z1wBpzmcpEx_.JPG




I admitt that I do not have any idea about the code. However if it is
just a simple light maybe it is like in most homes. The wire going from
the actual light socket is often much lighter than the wire that is ran
to it and the breaker is sized for.

Main concern in most cases is that a true neutral wire and there is
ground wire, or are they cheating and using the ground wire for the
neutral ?

Well, I assumed they were using a real neutral. In my neighbor's well
house there is a real neutral. I know this because I have had to do
work on his pumps.
Eric


Guest

Wed Feb 26, 2020 6:45 pm   



On Mon, 24 Feb 2020 12:04:58 -0600, Fox's Mercantile <jdangus_at_att.net>
wrote:

Quote:
On 2/24/20 11:35 AM, etpm_at_whidbey.com wrote:
Does the 120 volt circuit need its own breaker in the pump house?

In a word, yes.
120 volt lighting typically is #14 AWG and requires a 15 amp breaker.
120 volt outlets should be #12 AWG and require a 20 amp breaker.
A simple sub-panel in the well house with a "quad" breaker would be
the simplest solution.
https://www.zoro.com/static/cms/product/full/Z1wBpzmcpEx_.JPG

Thanks. I had never seen or even heard of a quad breaker.
Eric


Guest

Wed Feb 26, 2020 6:45 pm   



On Mon, 24 Feb 2020 10:05:18 -0800 (PST), "pfjw_at_aol.com"
<peterwieck33_at_gmail.com> wrote:

Quote:
Main feed to breaker-box in pump-house.
In breaker-box, one double-pole breaker to pump.
One single-pole breaker to lights.
One single-pole breaker to receptacle(s).

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

So I use a breaker in the house main panel to feed the well house and
then use another breaker for the pump and one for the lights, right?
The breaker in the house is to protect the 10 gauge wire running to
the pump house, the other breakers to protect the pump itself and the
lighting circuit.
Eric

three_jeeps
Guest

Wed Feb 26, 2020 6:45 pm   



On Monday, February 24, 2020 at 12:35:49 PM UTC-5, et...@whidbey.com wrote:
Quote:
Hey All,
I have seen this done and I never questioned it but now that I was
about to do it I'm wondering.
In a well pump house there are always lights being run on 120
volts. The pump runs on 240 volts though. The breaker at the panel in
the house that supplies power to the pump protects the heavy gauge
wire running to the pump house. Inside the pump house is lighter gauge
wiring running to the light. This wiring is connected to one leg of
the 240 volt power and to the neutral.
Does the 120 volt circuit need its own breaker in the pump house? I
have never noticed one in any pump house I've been in, and I have been
in several seeing as where I live most of the people I know are on a
well. But I'm thinking code must require another breaker to protect
the lighter gauge wire.
Anyway, wiring in the pump house is on hold until I know the
correct way.
Thanks,
Eric


absolutely need a breaker on the 120vac leg. I am rusty on my NEC knowledge but, I would put a distribution panel in the pumphouse. I am assuming that the 240 feed from the house is split before the house distribution panel
J

pfjw@aol.com
Guest

Wed Feb 26, 2020 7:45 pm   



If you have 10 gauge, 4-conductor wiring to the pump-house, you are fine doing as you plan. That would be 1-Hot 2-Neutral 3-hot 4-ground into the sub-panel. Then, a double-pole breaker to the pump for 240 Volts, and single pole breakers to light(s) and receptacle(s).

If you do not have an existing separate ground coming from the house, you will need to add a ground rod in the pump-house to ground the sub-panel. And it is still bad practice to use the feeder ground as a neutral - even though they are (should be) bonded in your main house panel. However, this used to happen all the time with heavy appliances being fed with SE Cable such as stoves and dryers, even though they had both 240 and 120 volt-functions on-board.

Good luck with it!


Guest

Wed Feb 26, 2020 7:45 pm   



On Wed, 26 Feb 2020 09:00:57 -0800 (PST), three_jeeps
<jjhudak_at_gmail.com> wrote:

Quote:
On Monday, February 24, 2020 at 12:35:49 PM UTC-5, et...@whidbey.com wrote:
Hey All,
I have seen this done and I never questioned it but now that I was
about to do it I'm wondering.
In a well pump house there are always lights being run on 120
volts. The pump runs on 240 volts though. The breaker at the panel in
the house that supplies power to the pump protects the heavy gauge
wire running to the pump house. Inside the pump house is lighter gauge
wiring running to the light. This wiring is connected to one leg of
the 240 volt power and to the neutral.
Does the 120 volt circuit need its own breaker in the pump house? I
have never noticed one in any pump house I've been in, and I have been
in several seeing as where I live most of the people I know are on a
well. But I'm thinking code must require another breaker to protect
the lighter gauge wire.
Anyway, wiring in the pump house is on hold until I know the
correct way.
Thanks,
Eric

absolutely need a breaker on the 120vac leg. I am rusty on my NEC knowledge but, I would put a distribution panel in the pumphouse. I am assuming that the 240 feed from the house is split before the house distribution panel
J

I don't know what you mean, split before the house distribution panel.
The pump now is fed from the main breaker panel in the house. It is on
its own breaker. When the pump house is done I will install a sub
panel in it to distribute power to the pump and to lights and to a 120
volt receptacle.
Eric


Guest

Wed Feb 26, 2020 8:45 pm   



On Wed, 26 Feb 2020 10:10:57 -0800 (PST), "pfjw_at_aol.com"
<peterwieck33_at_gmail.com> wrote:

Quote:
If you have 10 gauge, 4-conductor wiring to the pump-house, you are fine doing as you plan. That would be 1-Hot 2-Neutral 3-hot 4-ground into the sub-panel. Then, a double-pole breaker to the pump for 240 Volts, and single pole breakers to light(s) and receptacle(s).

If you do not have an existing separate ground coming from the house, you will need to add a ground rod in the pump-house to ground the sub-panel. And it is still bad practice to use the feeder ground as a neutral - even though they are (should be) bonded in your main house panel. However, this used to happen all the time with heavy appliances being fed with SE Cable such as stoves and dryers, even though they had both 240 and 120 volt-functions on-board.

Good luck with it!

Yeah, I have 4 wires. I planned ahead when I first wired the pump. I
am not always so organized.
Eric

Tom Biasi
Guest

Thu Feb 27, 2020 2:45 am   



On 2/26/2020 1:10 PM, pfjw_at_aol.com wrote:
Quote:
If you have 10 gauge, 4-conductor wiring to the pump-house, you are fine doing as you plan. That would be 1-Hot 2-Neutral 3-hot 4-ground into the sub-panel. Then, a double-pole breaker to the pump for 240 Volts, and single pole breakers to light(s) and receptacle(s).

If you do not have an existing separate ground coming from the house, you will need to add a ground rod in the pump-house to ground the sub-panel. And it is still bad practice to use the feeder ground as a neutral - even though they are (should be) bonded in your main house panel. However, this used to happen all the time with heavy appliances being fed with SE Cable such as stoves and dryers, even though they had both 240 and 120 volt-functions on-board.

Good luck with it!

A sub panel should not have the neutral and earth ground bonded. They
need to be separate.

Fox's Mercantile
Guest

Thu Feb 27, 2020 4:45 am   



On 2/26/20 7:26 PM, Tom Biasi wrote:
Quote:
On 2/26/2020 1:10 PM, pfjw_at_aol.com wrote:
If you do not have an existing separate ground coming from the house,
you will need to add a ground rod in the pump-house to ground the
sub-panel.

A sub panel should not have the neutral and earth ground bonded. They
need to be separate.


Absolutely. The ONLY place the Neutral should be connected to ground
is a the service panel (the one with the Meter).


--
"I am a river to my people."
Jeff-1.0
WA6FWi
http:foxsmercantile.com

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