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Jeff Urban
Guest

Thu Feb 27, 2020 7:45 am   



>So I use a breaker in the house main panel to feed the well house >and then use another breaker for the pump and one for the lights, >right?

You do not need another breaker for the pump if the one in the house is properly rated. However for lights and outlets you do.

A 240V breaker is a tandem which means when one side overloads both trip. They are mechanically coupled to achieve that.

There is a five move rule, you have to be able to shut down the whole building in five moves. So you'll have two, one for lights one for outlets. IF there is a box it has to be, however if it is ONLY the pump then don't even worry about it. I am unsure though if the one breaker in the house qualifies as a one move shutdown, is should but the code can be weird, you put a box in there and you got more rules. So if you have another breaker out there that is one move. Outlets a move, lights a move. If for any reason you have to add more circuits out there then all you get is five unless there is another main out there, which I think is unnecessary.

What would you add ? A pool pump ? Those are mostly 240V but with the tandem breaker that is only one move.

One of the houses I put a panel in I retained the original FPE box and used what used to go to fuses, a 50 amp, to the main lugs of the sub panel. The backyard where the meter was was all overgrown with trees and weeds, trees that used to be weeds and just forget it. So then some yahoo comes in and mumbles something about code and eliminates the original FPE box. Now it is like 12 moves to shut down the building, THAT is against code. I washed my hands of it. I would have put the main kit on the box, GEs have that option, but of course he didn't bother with that. Once someone does that I am absolved when the house burns down and guess what...

The same guy saw my furnace which was installed sideways, which is code and it was a furnace made for it. (it must, the flame arrestor is configured differently) It was nice because there was a huige return oh the first floor right into the intake so I put the filter so they could change it without going in the basement. Hey the guy was getting old.

The reason for the after the fact ranys is to watch who you listen to when it comes to code. Evne if they show you the book, there are sections. Like this driveway here, I wasn't here for that but the guy cheated, put the new driveway about 1-2" higher than the original. They of course guarantee it not to crack but didn't want to do the digging. If someone bitched he would have sid it is code, but that is bullshit. Tell him to show you the book and he'll open the pages on footers and foundations, which ARE regulated. Ask "Then how the hell can I have a cement basement floor ?".

For any of this shit go to a union hall and hang around a little. Catch them walking out, if they are there early in the afternoon they are probably looking for work. Most have a problem with residential here on 38 unless it is a new install of something. But some will do it. here, they got stickers and if they put their sticker on the job the inspector doesn't even look. He knows it is right. There is a unique number for each journeyman and if shit happens it falls on them. You might pay over $200 a day but you can pay some asshole that much who doesn't know jack shit and endangers you.

Your call.

If you have the breaker in the house, you can use an old junk fusebox as long as you're only pulling 120v. However use that house ground, do not put another ground in and if you do not have a house ground out there and you do pound one in do not tie it to the neutral.

Also if you put a breaker out there for the pump it will have to be a GFCI. The one in the house is grandfathered in.

pfjw@aol.com
Guest

Thu Feb 27, 2020 4:45 pm   



Quote:
A sub panel should not have the neutral and earth ground bonded. They
need to be separate.


Yes. There is nothing "neutral" about a neutral. And why it is that if there are only three wires from the House (Main) panel to the sub panel, an additional SEPARATE ground must be provided in the Pump House, as that third wire is now, de-facto, the neutral.

As it happens, there is no reason not to have multiple GROUNDS within a system, as long as there is one, and only one Neutral. I remember back in the day the master-electrician I worked for was a fanatic about balancing loads as closely as practical, even in a residential application. If loads are exactly balanced, then from the Panel to the Pole, the neutral will carry no current at all. But within the residence, pretty much every neutral will carry load. Easily demonstrated with an ammeter.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA


Guest

Thu Feb 27, 2020 5:45 pm   



On Wed, 26 Feb 2020 20:26:11 -0500, Tom Biasi <tombiasi_at_optonline.net>
wrote:

Quote:
On 2/26/2020 1:10 PM, pfjw_at_aol.com wrote:
If you have 10 gauge, 4-conductor wiring to the pump-house, you are fine doing as you plan. That would be 1-Hot 2-Neutral 3-hot 4-ground into the sub-panel. Then, a double-pole breaker to the pump for 240 Volts, and single pole breakers to light(s) and receptacle(s).

If you do not have an existing separate ground coming from the house, you will need to add a ground rod in the pump-house to ground the sub-panel. And it is still bad practice to use the feeder ground as a neutral - even though they are (should be) bonded in your main house panel. However, this used to happen all the time with heavy appliances being fed with SE Cable such as stoves and dryers, even though they had both 240 and 120 volt-functions on-board.

Good luck with it!

A sub panel should not have the neutral and earth ground bonded. They
need to be separate.

I knew that. Ground and neutral only bonded in the main panel. When I
wired my shop I brought all the grounds from the CNC and manual
machines back to the main panel to avoid ground loops. The control
makers stressed that ground loops are to be avoided.
Eric


Guest

Thu Feb 27, 2020 5:45 pm   



On Wednesday, February 26, 2020 at 10:20:06 PM UTC-5, Fox's Mercantile wrote:
Quote:
On 2/26/20 7:26 PM, Tom Biasi wrote:
On 2/26/2020 1:10 PM, pfjw_at_aol.com wrote:
If you do not have an existing separate ground coming from the house,
you will need to add a ground rod in the pump-house to ground the
sub-panel.

A sub panel should not have the neutral and earth ground bonded. They
need to be separate.

Absolutely. The ONLY place the Neutral should be connected to ground
is a the service panel (the one with the Meter).


Why not just to the one where the branch circuits all connect (if different from where the meter is)?

Fox's Mercantile
Guest

Thu Feb 27, 2020 6:45 pm   



On 2/27/20 9:46 AM, bruce2bowser_at_gmail.com wrote:
Quote:
Why not just to the one where the branch circuits all
connect (if different from where the meter is)?


At the risk of stating the obvious, because that's code.
Despite what everyone else states.

It's there for protection to make sure the line voltages
are referenced to ground.

Simply put, one and only one ground, and it's at the
service entrance.

If you insist on putting in a second ground, such as at
a well/pump house, or an amateur radio station, the
grounds must remain separate.


--
"I am a river to my people."
Jeff-1.0
WA6FWi
http:foxsmercantile.com

Fox's Mercantile
Guest

Thu Feb 27, 2020 6:45 pm   



On 2/27/20 12:44 AM, Jeff Urban wrote:
Quote:
You do not need another breaker for the pump if the one
in the house is properly rated. However for lights and
outlets you do.


As usual, you are wrong.

You put a breaker at the source (service panel) to protect
the line running to the pump.
You are required to have a disconnect AT the pump. Another
breaker in a sub panel for the pump/well house is the
easiest way to accomplish that.

As I said previously, and using a 30 amp service to the
pump as an example.

1. 30 amp dual breaker for a 10-3 run to the pump.
2. A four slot sub panel (rated at 30 amps minimum) at the
pump.
3. A 30 amp dual breaker for the pump.
4. An additional 20 amp single for any outlets.
5. And a 15-20 Amp breaker for any lighting circuit.

If the pump motor is electrically connected to the well
casing, do NOT ground it through the ground from the service
panel. Use the service panel for the grounds on the outlet
and lighting circuits only.

It's NOT that complicated people.
Try not to make it complicated or unsafe.


--
"I am a river to my people."
Jeff-1.0
WA6FWi
http:foxsmercantile.com

Ron D.
Guest

Thu Feb 27, 2020 7:45 pm   



Since the pump house is a "detached" structure, the pump house panel should have a local ground rod for lightning protection. Ground and neutral should remain separated.

The number of breakers determine whether or not it needs a main breaker. Memory says >6.

Panels are divided into two major categories "main lug" or "main breaker". "main lug" is wired for separated N and ground. "Main breaker" has a "main breaker" and the N and G are bonded together.

Usually there is a way to unbond the neutral and you purchase a ground bar kit to add to the panel. This gives you the separate G and N connections and a disconnect for that sub-panel.

You can read the NEC for free online.

Michael Terrell
Guest

Fri Feb 28, 2020 4:45 pm   



On Thursday, February 27, 2020 at 10:46:58 AM UTC-5, bruce2...@gmail.com wrote:
Quote:
On Wednesday, February 26, 2020 at 10:20:06 PM UTC-5, Fox's Mercantile wrote:
On 2/26/20 7:26 PM, Tom Biasi wrote:
On 2/26/2020 1:10 PM, pfjw_at_aol.com wrote:
If you do not have an existing separate ground coming from the house,
you will need to add a ground rod in the pump-house to ground the
sub-panel.

A sub panel should not have the neutral and earth ground bonded. They
need to be separate.

Absolutely. The ONLY place the Neutral should be connected to ground
is a the service panel (the one with the Meter).

Why not just to the one where the branch circuits all connect (if different from where the meter is)?


What happens when that one wire opens? A bad neutral is a very common fault. Then you have no place for a fault current to go. RIP!.


Guest

Wed Mar 04, 2020 7:45 pm   



Quote:

Why not just to the one where the branch circuits all connect (if different from where the meter is)?

What happens when that one wire opens? A bad neutral is a very common fault. Then you have no place for a fault current to go. RIP!.


Its even worse, if that one wire opens disconnecting the machine from the neutral/ground, the case of the machine can become electrically live because current will flow through the load to the ground/neutral.

Anyone touching the case could be shocked.

m

Jeff Urban
Guest

Thu Mar 05, 2020 10:45 am   



>As usual, you are wrong.

Mm Hhm.

You say what you want Means nothing.

Fox's Mercantile
Guest

Thu Mar 05, 2020 6:45 pm   



On 3/5/20 3:00 AM, Jeff Urban wrote:
Quote:
As usual, you are wrong.

Mm Hhm.

You say what you want Means nothing.


I suppose it wouldn't if you have zero comprehension.


--
"I am a river to my people."
Jeff-1.0
WA6FWi
http:foxsmercantile.com

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