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Guest

Mon Apr 27, 2020 4:45 pm   



On Sun, 26 Apr 2020 22:59:56 -0700 (PDT), dagmargoodboat_at_yahoo.com
wrote:

Quote:
On Sunday, April 26, 2020 at 11:58:18 PM UTC-4, Clifford Heath wrote:
On 27/4/20 1:13 pm, dagmargoodboat_at_yahoo.com wrote:
On Wednesday, April 22, 2020 at 10:27:13 PM UTC-4, Clifford Heath wrote:
The problem is that unlike almost any other disease, it progresses
through most of the body without causing symptoms, but after that when
it goes to the lungs, it either dies out there and you recover, or
triggers a cytokine storm that kills you slowly. That's an *immune*
dysfunction, which is also what kills in ebola. You simply don't get
that with the flu.
Severe acute respiratory syndrome is a dread condition, no question.
Anyhow I think the fear is justified, because this is basically Russian
Roulette - nobody is safe.

I posted a graphic from your Dept. of Health that, I believe, demonstrates
that nearly everyone is safe. Nearly everyone can handle SARS-CoV2 if
they get it, and with decent hygiene, nearly every one can avoid it if
they choose, while living a basically (normal life) + (washing their
hands and not touching their faces).

If you're on the edge, the Chinese Red Death will push you off. But
otherwise, it's overwhelmingly a disease of the superannuated and infirm.
So, we protect those people, diligently. That's important. But locking
up healthy people doesn't accomplish that.

Well, that's almost certainly true now in the USA, because of a lack of
leadership and common sense.

Here in Australia (and other places like NZ, that put the right
restrictions in place quickly enough) we can eradicate the disease
entirely. We are already considering how to start opening up a little
after only a month shut down.

I expect that we will have free travel to NZ at least before the end of
the year. And that next year we will again resume the flood of foreign
(mostly Chinese) students - albeit with a mandatory quarantine period on
arrival. Living expenses for foreign students constitutes our 3rd latest
export - and the bigger exports haven't stopped (mining, gas).

But you and I part on a critical assumption -- that quarantining healthy
people stops the illness. It doesn't.

It has done so here, unquestionably.

You've delayed disease, sure. But it's still there.


And, in Australia, Winter Is Coming.



--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

Science teaches us to doubt.

Claude Bernard


Guest

Mon Apr 27, 2020 4:45 pm   



On Sun, 26 Apr 2020 23:20:58 -0700 (PDT), whit3rd <whit3rd_at_gmail.com>
wrote:

Quote:
On Sunday, April 26, 2020 at 8:13:18 PM UTC-7, dagmarg...@yahoo.com wrote:
On Wednesday, April 22, 2020 at 10:27:13 PM UTC-4, Clifford Heath wrote:

Anyhow I think the fear is justified, because this is basically Russian
Roulette - nobody is safe.

I posted a graphic from your Dept. of Health that, I believe, demonstrates
that nearly everyone is safe. Nearly everyone can handle SARS-CoV2 if
they get it...

You mean, safe :== 'recovery is more likely than not'? But Russian roulette only kills
one in six... sixteen, ir twenty-six, aren't "safe", either.

It's insane to play a game with that kind of odds. If you can afford to dodge
the bullet, do so.

The 'Dept. of Health' has a pretty good idea that a fast spreading disease
can overwhelm the localr facilities, , did you find a graphic on that, too?


In California, big hospitals are empty and laying off staff.

The Stanford hospital ($27 billion endowment) is generously allowing
some people to continue working, at a 20% pay cut.



--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

Science teaches us to doubt.

Claude Bernard


Guest

Mon Apr 27, 2020 6:45 pm   



On Mon, 27 Apr 2020 09:59:00 -0700 (PDT), whit3rd <whit3rd_at_gmail.com>
wrote:

Quote:
On Monday, April 27, 2020 at 8:36:48 AM UTC-7, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:

In California, big hospitals are empty and laying off staff.

Yeah, for public health reasons. And, for the health of... staff.


Yeah, let those mammograms and kidney transplants and visits to
pediatricians wait.

Quote:

The Stanford hospital ($27 billion endowment) is generously allowing
some people to continue working, at a 20% pay cut.

That's an odd decision, but neither illegal nor improper; a lessened
work staff can keep interpersonal space open. The endowment is
not relevant information. Every person or organization can keep
savings at will, in non-communist countries.


Oddly cruel and stupid.

All my employees are on full salary, working or not, because we care
for them and want them to stay with us.



--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

Science teaches us to doubt.

Claude Bernard

whit3rd
Guest

Mon Apr 27, 2020 6:45 pm   



On Monday, April 27, 2020 at 8:36:48 AM UTC-7, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:

> In California, big hospitals are empty and laying off staff.

Yeah, for public health reasons. And, for the health of... staff.

Quote:
The Stanford hospital ($27 billion endowment) is generously allowing
some people to continue working, at a 20% pay cut.


That's an odd decision, but neither illegal nor improper; a lessened
work staff can keep interpersonal space open. The endowment is
not relevant information. Every person or organization can keep
savings at will, in non-communist countries.

Ricky C
Guest

Mon Apr 27, 2020 6:45 pm   



On Monday, April 27, 2020 at 11:36:48 AM UTC-4, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
Quote:
On Sun, 26 Apr 2020 23:20:58 -0700 (PDT), whit3rd <whit3rd_at_gmail.com
wrote:

On Sunday, April 26, 2020 at 8:13:18 PM UTC-7, dagmarg...@yahoo.com wrote:
On Wednesday, April 22, 2020 at 10:27:13 PM UTC-4, Clifford Heath wrote:

Anyhow I think the fear is justified, because this is basically Russian
Roulette - nobody is safe.

I posted a graphic from your Dept. of Health that, I believe, demonstrates
that nearly everyone is safe. Nearly everyone can handle SARS-CoV2 if
they get it...

You mean, safe :== 'recovery is more likely than not'? But Russian roulette only kills
one in six... sixteen, ir twenty-six, aren't "safe", either.

It's insane to play a game with that kind of odds. If you can afford to dodge
the bullet, do so.

The 'Dept. of Health' has a pretty good idea that a fast spreading disease
can overwhelm the localr facilities, , did you find a graphic on that, too?

In California, big hospitals are empty and laying off staff.


I know how to fix that problem. Move the hospital staff to New York! I think they will be very welcome, especially if they bring their own PPE. It's not like the Federal government will help with the problems.


Quote:
The Stanford hospital ($27 billion endowment) is generously allowing
some people to continue working, at a 20% pay cut.


Beats the crap out of being laid off. A lot of employers should do that sort of thing.

--

Rick C.

---+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
---+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

Michael Terrell
Guest

Mon Apr 27, 2020 8:45 pm   



On Monday, April 27, 2020 at 2:56:18 AM UTC-4, Tom Gardner wrote:
Quote:
On 27/04/20 04:21, dagmargoodboat wrote:
On Friday, April 24, 2020 at 6:49:46 PM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:

I wonder how many deaths have resulted from the lockdowns. People
aren't getting cancer or kidney or heart surgeries or tests. Kids
aren't getting vaccinated. People are in desperate financial shape,
drinking and fighting and maybe suicide.

Suicide is a leading cause of death (47k annually), particularly among
men, and in my area, it has skyrocketed.

I know someone in agonizing pain, but unable to see a doctor.
(All the doctors' practices are closed, or teleconference-only.)

If you need tests or diagnoses, if you happen to fall ill right now,
if you've found a lump and need it looked into, you're screwed.

So do I: my mother yesterday.

Doctor said she should go to A&E, and within an hour
she was there.

The A&E waiting room was sparsely packed.

She's home now; I hope she hasn't picked up something
and if so won't pass it on to me. I'll go round and
check soon.


What is A&E? In the United States of America it is a Cable TV service called Arts and Entertainment.

Tom Gardner
Guest

Mon Apr 27, 2020 9:45 pm   



On 27/04/20 20:39, Michael Terrell wrote:
Quote:
On Monday, April 27, 2020 at 2:56:18 AM UTC-4, Tom Gardner wrote:
On 27/04/20 04:21, dagmargoodboat wrote:
On Friday, April 24, 2020 at 6:49:46 PM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:

I wonder how many deaths have resulted from the lockdowns. People
aren't getting cancer or kidney or heart surgeries or tests. Kids
aren't getting vaccinated. People are in desperate financial shape,
drinking and fighting and maybe suicide.

Suicide is a leading cause of death (47k annually), particularly among
men, and in my area, it has skyrocketed.

I know someone in agonizing pain, but unable to see a doctor.
(All the doctors' practices are closed, or teleconference-only.)

If you need tests or diagnoses, if you happen to fall ill right now,
if you've found a lump and need it looked into, you're screwed.

So do I: my mother yesterday.

Doctor said she should go to A&E, and within an hour
she was there.

The A&E waiting room was sparsely packed.

She's home now; I hope she hasn't picked up something
and if so won't pass it on to me. I'll go round and
check soon.

What is A&E? In the United States of America it is a Cable TV service called Arts and Entertainment.


Accident and Emergency: where the ambulances arrive, and
patients are sorted for distribution into the relevant
wards, or sent home.

John Larkin
Guest

Mon Apr 27, 2020 10:45 pm   



On Mon, 27 Apr 2020 21:03:02 +0100, Tom Gardner
<spamjunk_at_blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

Quote:
On 27/04/20 20:39, Michael Terrell wrote:
On Monday, April 27, 2020 at 2:56:18 AM UTC-4, Tom Gardner wrote:
On 27/04/20 04:21, dagmargoodboat wrote:
On Friday, April 24, 2020 at 6:49:46 PM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:

I wonder how many deaths have resulted from the lockdowns. People
aren't getting cancer or kidney or heart surgeries or tests. Kids
aren't getting vaccinated. People are in desperate financial shape,
drinking and fighting and maybe suicide.

Suicide is a leading cause of death (47k annually), particularly among
men, and in my area, it has skyrocketed.

I know someone in agonizing pain, but unable to see a doctor.
(All the doctors' practices are closed, or teleconference-only.)

If you need tests or diagnoses, if you happen to fall ill right now,
if you've found a lump and need it looked into, you're screwed.

So do I: my mother yesterday.

Doctor said she should go to A&E, and within an hour
she was there.

The A&E waiting room was sparsely packed.

She's home now; I hope she hasn't picked up something
and if so won't pass it on to me. I'll go round and
check soon.

What is A&E? In the United States of America it is a Cable TV service called Arts and Entertainment.


Accident and Emergency: where the ambulances arrive, and
patients are sorted for distribution into the relevant
wards, or sent home.


We call that ER. We have a TV show called ER too.

--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc
picosecond timing precision measurement

jlarkin att highlandtechnology dott com
http://www.highlandtechnology.com

Michael Terrell
Guest

Mon Apr 27, 2020 10:45 pm   



On Monday, April 27, 2020 at 4:03:09 PM UTC-4, Tom Gardner wrote:
Quote:
On 27/04/20 20:39, Michael Terrell wrote:
On Monday, April 27, 2020 at 2:56:18 AM UTC-4, Tom Gardner wrote:
On 27/04/20 04:21, dagmargoodboat wrote:
On Friday, April 24, 2020 at 6:49:46 PM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:

I wonder how many deaths have resulted from the lockdowns. People
aren't getting cancer or kidney or heart surgeries or tests. Kids
aren't getting vaccinated. People are in desperate financial shape,
drinking and fighting and maybe suicide.

Suicide is a leading cause of death (47k annually), particularly among
men, and in my area, it has skyrocketed.

I know someone in agonizing pain, but unable to see a doctor.
(All the doctors' practices are closed, or teleconference-only.)

If you need tests or diagnoses, if you happen to fall ill right now,
if you've found a lump and need it looked into, you're screwed.

So do I: my mother yesterday.

Doctor said she should go to A&E, and within an hour
she was there.

The A&E waiting room was sparsely packed.

She's home now; I hope she hasn't picked up something
and if so won't pass it on to me. I'll go round and
check soon.

What is A&E? In the United States of America it is a Cable TV service called Arts and Entertainment.


Accident and Emergency: where the ambulances arrive, and
patients are sorted for distribution into the relevant
wards, or sent home.


That's like John said, an 'Emergency Room' here, where they triage the incoming to determine their treatment.

The last time I had to use one I had suffered a Third Nerve Palsy in my right eye. They did an ultrasound , followed by an MRI to see if there was anything causing the problem. All of that in under two hours. I made seven visits to the VA hospital before they decided that it was healing properly. I couldn't open that eye or move it until it was healed. Even now, the muscles are weaker in that eye, so when I am really fatigued, it will drift until the aren't aimed at the same focal point. They eye was fine one evening, but unusable the next, and it was my good eye. It was hell, driving with no depth perception.

John Larkin
Guest

Mon Apr 27, 2020 10:45 pm   



On Mon, 27 Apr 2020 14:11:04 -0700 (PDT), Michael Terrell
<terrell.michael.a_at_gmail.com> wrote:

Quote:
On Monday, April 27, 2020 at 4:03:09 PM UTC-4, Tom Gardner wrote:
On 27/04/20 20:39, Michael Terrell wrote:
On Monday, April 27, 2020 at 2:56:18 AM UTC-4, Tom Gardner wrote:
On 27/04/20 04:21, dagmargoodboat wrote:
On Friday, April 24, 2020 at 6:49:46 PM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:

I wonder how many deaths have resulted from the lockdowns. People
aren't getting cancer or kidney or heart surgeries or tests. Kids
aren't getting vaccinated. People are in desperate financial shape,
drinking and fighting and maybe suicide.

Suicide is a leading cause of death (47k annually), particularly among
men, and in my area, it has skyrocketed.

I know someone in agonizing pain, but unable to see a doctor.
(All the doctors' practices are closed, or teleconference-only.)

If you need tests or diagnoses, if you happen to fall ill right now,
if you've found a lump and need it looked into, you're screwed.

So do I: my mother yesterday.

Doctor said she should go to A&E, and within an hour
she was there.

The A&E waiting room was sparsely packed.

She's home now; I hope she hasn't picked up something
and if so won't pass it on to me. I'll go round and
check soon.

What is A&E? In the United States of America it is a Cable TV service called Arts and Entertainment.


Accident and Emergency: where the ambulances arrive, and
patients are sorted for distribution into the relevant
wards, or sent home.

That's like John said, an 'Emergency Room' here, where they triage the incoming to determine their treatment.

The last time I had to use one I had suffered a Third Nerve Palsy in my right eye. They did an ultrasound , followed by an MRI to see if there was anything causing the problem. All of that in under two hours. I made seven visits to the VA hospital before they decided that it was healing properly. I couldn't open that eye or move it until it was healed. Even now, the muscles are weaker in that eye, so when I am really fatigued, it will drift until the aren't aimed at the same focal point. They eye was fine one evening, but unusable the next, and it was my good eye. It was hell, driving with no depth perception.


I fell down a flight of metal stairs, fractured my skull in three
places, and died. Then spent three days at Zuckerberg.

--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc
picosecond timing precision measurement

jlarkin att highlandtechnology dott com
http://www.highlandtechnology.com

Michael Terrell
Guest

Mon Apr 27, 2020 10:45 pm   



On Monday, April 27, 2020 at 5:30:43 PM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:
Quote:

On Mon, 27 Apr 2020 14:11:04 -0700 (PDT), Michael Terrell wrote:

On Monday, April 27, 2020 at 4:03:09 PM UTC-4, Tom Gardner wrote:
On 27/04/20 20:39, Michael Terrell wrote:
On Monday, April 27, 2020 at 2:56:18 AM UTC-4, Tom Gardner wrote:
On 27/04/20 04:21, dagmargoodboat wrote:
On Friday, April 24, 2020 at 6:49:46 PM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:

I wonder how many deaths have resulted from the lockdowns. People
aren't getting cancer or kidney or heart surgeries or tests. Kids
aren't getting vaccinated. People are in desperate financial shape,
drinking and fighting and maybe suicide.

Suicide is a leading cause of death (47k annually), particularly among
men, and in my area, it has skyrocketed.

I know someone in agonizing pain, but unable to see a doctor.
(All the doctors' practices are closed, or teleconference-only.)

If you need tests or diagnoses, if you happen to fall ill right now,
if you've found a lump and need it looked into, you're screwed.

So do I: my mother yesterday.

Doctor said she should go to A&E, and within an hour
she was there.

The A&E waiting room was sparsely packed.

She's home now; I hope she hasn't picked up something
and if so won't pass it on to me. I'll go round and
check soon.

What is A&E? In the United States of America it is a Cable TV service called Arts and Entertainment.


Accident and Emergency: where the ambulances arrive, and
patients are sorted for distribution into the relevant
wards, or sent home.

That's like John said, an 'Emergency Room' here, where they triage the incoming to determine their treatment.

The last time I had to use one I had suffered a Third Nerve Palsy in my right eye. They did an ultrasound , followed by an MRI to see if there was anything causing the problem. All of that in under two hours. I made seven visits to the VA hospital before they decided that it was healing properly. I couldn't open that eye or move it until it was healed. Even now, the muscles are weaker in that eye, so when I am really fatigued, it will drift until the aren't aimed at the same focal point. They eye was fine one evening, but unusable the next, and it was my good eye. It was hell, driving with no depth perception.

I fell down a flight of metal stairs, fractured my skull in three
places, and died. Then spent three days at Zuckerberg.


I fell down y parent's basement steps as a teenager. It was raining really hard, and blowing against the back door. The landing was wet. I hit almost every step on the way down, until I fell off one side. I missed a pile of scrapped TV chassis by inches. If I had landed on them, I would have been cut to shreds. I laid on that cold concrete floor for almost two hours, screaming for help. My sister had the TV so loud that no one could hear me. I was finally able to move, and crawled back to the main floor. I wwas sore and stiff, for weeks.

I was repairing a TV Antenna rotor a few years after that. A really strong wind hit me, and tossed me off the roof. I landed on my back, on the Aluminum extension ladder and put about a 15 degree bend in it. It was below zero outside, so I was already quite stiff. If it wasn't for that and a heavy winter coat, I would have probably broken my back. That roof looked strange. One set of footprints in the snow to the peak, but no signs of how I had got down. The homeowner was screaming at me about the ladder ripping down his damned gutters. I told him that whoever was sent out to finish the job would put them back up.

Bill Sloman
Guest

Tue Apr 28, 2020 1:45 am   



On Tuesday, April 28, 2020 at 3:19:26 AM UTC+10, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
Quote:
On Mon, 27 Apr 2020 09:59:00 -0700 (PDT), whit3rd <whit3rd_at_gmail.com
wrote:

On Monday, April 27, 2020 at 8:36:48 AM UTC-7, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:

In California, big hospitals are empty and laying off staff.

Yeah, for public health reasons. And, for the health of... staff.

Yeah, let those mammograms and kidney transplants and visits to
pediatricians wait.


There's a distinction between urgent and non-urgent appointments whicb John Larkin doesn't seem to be aware off.

Quote:
The Stanford hospital ($27 billion endowment) is generously allowing
some people to continue working, at a 20% pay cut.

That's an odd decision, but neither illegal nor improper; a lessened
work staff can keep interpersonal space open. The endowment is
not relevant information. Every person or organization can keep
savings at will, in non-communist countries.

Oddly cruel and stupid.


US capitalism does go in for that a lot. The aim is to maximise profits, not human happiness.

Quote:
All my employees are on full salary, working or not, because we care
for them and want them to stay with us.


Noble of you, but if you can afford it you must be ripping off your customers, thus leaving a gap in the market for somebody who can sell the same kind of product for a lower price.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

Tom Gardner
Guest

Tue Apr 28, 2020 10:45 am   



On 27/04/20 22:11, Michael Terrell wrote:
Quote:
On Monday, April 27, 2020 at 4:03:09 PM UTC-4, Tom Gardner wrote:
On 27/04/20 20:39, Michael Terrell wrote:
On Monday, April 27, 2020 at 2:56:18 AM UTC-4, Tom Gardner wrote:
On 27/04/20 04:21, dagmargoodboat wrote:
On Friday, April 24, 2020 at 6:49:46 PM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:

I wonder how many deaths have resulted from the lockdowns. People
aren't getting cancer or kidney or heart surgeries or tests. Kids
aren't getting vaccinated. People are in desperate financial
shape, drinking and fighting and maybe suicide.

Suicide is a leading cause of death (47k annually), particularly
among men, and in my area, it has skyrocketed.

I know someone in agonizing pain, but unable to see a doctor. (All
the doctors' practices are closed, or teleconference-only.)

If you need tests or diagnoses, if you happen to fall ill right now,
if you've found a lump and need it looked into, you're screwed.

So do I: my mother yesterday.

Doctor said she should go to A&E, and within an hour she was there.

The A&E waiting room was sparsely packed.

She's home now; I hope she hasn't picked up something and if so won't
pass it on to me. I'll go round and check soon.

What is A&E? In the United States of America it is a Cable TV service
called Arts and Entertainment.


Accident and Emergency: where the ambulances arrive, and patients are
sorted for distribution into the relevant wards, or sent home.

That's like John said, an 'Emergency Room' here, where they triage the
incoming to determine their treatment.

The last time I had to use one I had suffered a Third Nerve Palsy in my right
eye. They did an ultrasound , followed by an MRI to see if there was anything
causing the problem. All of that in under two hours. I made seven visits to
the VA hospital before they decided that it was healing properly. I couldn't
open that eye or move it until it was healed. Even now, the muscles are
weaker in that eye, so when I am really fatigued, it will drift until the
aren't aimed at the same focal point. They eye was fine one evening, but
unusable the next, and it was my good eye. It was hell, driving with no depth
perception.


Unpleasant.

I suspect, but will never know, that my mother came
home early because she insisted she didn't want to be
in the hospital. She certainly didn't want to go, I
wasn't allowed in to talk to the doctors. Can't argue
with any of that.

In terms of falls, five years ago I forgot there were
steps outside my front door (only used them >20k times!),
realised just too late and decided it was better to
jump than fall.

After landing and tumbling, my knee was at an improper
angle. The paramedics arrived promptly and were amazed
and worried that there was perfect sensation but zero pain.
The next day, Sunday, the surgeons repaired the ruptured
patellar tendon, and after 6 months the leg was pretty
good.

I won't run again, but I've never liked running anyway!

Thank God for the NHS.

Over here the slogan is "Stay home. Protect the NHS.
Save lives", in that order.

It has escaped nobody's attention that the politicians
have been running it down for a decade. My fragrant
(Brexiteer, right wing) MP recently voted against giving
NHS staff a pay rise. I hope that comes back to bite him.

Martin Brown
Guest

Tue Apr 28, 2020 10:45 am   



On 24/04/2020 23:07, Ricky C wrote:
Quote:
On Friday, April 24, 2020 at 4:49:12 PM UTC-4, Tom Gardner wrote:
On 24/04/20 19:04, Ricky C wrote:
On Friday, April 24, 2020 at 9:56:26 AM UTC-4, David Brown
wrote:

Sure, sometimes the answer is clear. All I am saying is that
sometimes it is not.

"Sometimes not" doesn't have much impact on the numbers though,
does it? If someone didn't get sick enough to go to the hospital
and dies in their bed I don't think it is so urgent to count them
as a COVID death or not. If COVID killed them in that case they
probably would have died the next time they got a cold too.

a bunch of Tom's blathering trimmed

What is causing all these non-COVID excess deaths?

There are three broad categories, which I shall label A B C, that
could be contributing to excess deaths that did not get recognised
as having COVID-19 as a confirmed or suspected cause.

A. Highly vulnerable people, who had a mild infection, but which
was sufficient to lead to their death without any obvious symptoms
of COVID-19.


And that they died either at home or in a care home without being
admitted to hospital (and were typically old frail and already under
medical care for other pre-existing conditions).

The coroner doesn't do Covid-19 autopsies at the moment and UK testing
is restricted to those who are still alive (and even then rationed).

Quote:
B. Those in which some symptoms had been apparent, but the
certifying doctor was reluctant to put COVID-19 on the certificate
without further evidence — few patients outside hospital will have
been tested, and new regulations mean the certifying doctor does
not have to have seen the patient recently. But there has been
recent encouragement to put ‘suspected COVID-19’ on the death
certificate, and this could have led to a reduction in the number
in this category.


In the UK there has been some (political?) pressure to play down the
levels of Covid-19 infections in care homes.

Quote:
C. Deaths of people who have not been infected, but whose normal
medical treatment has been disrupted, for example by reluctance to
attend hospital in spite of illness that would normally warrant a
referral or attendance at A&E.


Attendance at A&E for stroke, heart attack and sepsis are all well down
about 50% on normal and when they do present it may already be to late.

You have also missed a category which is the reason behind C.

D. Covid-19 has become a new hospital acquired infection which is
delivering the coup de grace to people admitted for another serious
condition. Several high profile individuals have expired this way.

E. Other life saving surgical procedures which require intensive care
beds and operating theatres are effectively on hold at the moment.

Quote:
You don't seem to make a point about any of this. The numbers of
these three groups are not likely to be very large compared to the
directly attributable deaths that are easy to count.


There is a fair chunk of the UK excess deaths last month that were
definitively not directly by Covid-19. Covid-19 was ranked third as the
cause of death in the UK during April after heart attack and stroke.

The spike was almost double the five year average for that peak week but
by no means all of those deaths were direct Covid-19 deaths.
Quote:

If a person is not symptomatic of a COVID-19 infection and died from
that disease, they likely would have died from a slight breeze. It
is hard for me to imagine someone dying of COVID-19 and it not being
visible in any manner. Do you know of any such cases?

If someone dies of COVID-19 and the doctor can't figure out they had
it without a test, then it sounds like it is more in the first
category. The diagnosis of having the disease only takes a simple
test. If the doctor was just to lazy to figure out what the death
was from, then you have bigger problems than worrying about the
COVID-19 numbers. In this country doctors are a bit more particular
than just saying someone died because they stopped breathing.


The doctors are generally not visiting the patients at care homes any
more and doing remote diagnosis by video link. The "simple" test
requires you to have both the swabs and the logistics to do it.

At present they are struggling to deliver tests to healthcare workers
and typically require them to visit a drive through centre when ill. I
can't see a dead body driving themselves anywhere - can you?

[snip]
Quote:
Here is the part I find most informative...

"Conclusion

It is impossible from the currently available data to determine the
reasons for the substantial spike in excess deaths that do not have
COVID on the death certificate."

So I assume you dispute this part???


I think it probably has a lot to do with the surprisingly low number of
people presenting at A&E with strokes, sepsis and heart attacks compared
to the average in previous years. Time is of the essence here.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-52417599

Other news today is that the UK is seeing a rare but very nasty
inflammatory disease pathology for Covid-19? in a handful of young
children. Not yet clear if it is Covid-19 or something else - not all
have tested Covid positive.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-52439005

Initial indications are a viral form a Kawasaki syndrome.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kawasaki_disease

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

Michael Terrell
Guest

Tue Apr 28, 2020 11:45 am   



On Tuesday, April 28, 2020 at 5:05:59 AM UTC-4, Tom Gardner wrote:
Quote:

Unpleasant.

I suspect, but will never know, that my mother came
home early because she insisted she didn't want to be
in the hospital. She certainly didn't want to go, I
wasn't allowed in to talk to the doctors. Can't argue
with any of that.

In terms of falls, five years ago I forgot there were
steps outside my front door (only used them >20k times!),
realised just too late and decided it was better to
jump than fall.

After landing and tumbling, my knee was at an improper
angle. The paramedics arrived promptly and were amazed
and worried that there was perfect sensation but zero pain.
The next day, Sunday, the surgeons repaired the ruptured
patellar tendon, and after 6 months the leg was pretty
good.

I won't run again, but I've never liked running anyway!

Thank God for the NHS.

Over here the slogan is "Stay home. Protect the NHS.
Save lives", in that order.

It has escaped nobody's attention that the politicians
have been running it down for a decade. My fragrant
(Brexiteer, right wing) MP recently voted against giving
NHS staff a pay rise. I hope that comes back to bite him.


I had a really bad case of Pneumonia when I was 10 years old. Our family doctor wanted to put me in the hospital, that day. I didn't want to be in the hospital, and I didn't want to get behind at school. That was a Friday, after school. I was told that like it or not, I would go, if it hadn't started to clear up by Monday. My doctors was very confused on Monday. I had forced all the fluids out of my lungs over the weekend and he didn't know what to say. I still had to sit in the bleachers for a month, in Gym class because of it.

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