# Trigonometry terminology

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Guest

Thu Feb 07, 2019 1:45 pm

On Thursday, February 7, 2019 at 8:22:55 PM UTC+11, tabb...@gmail.com wrote:
Quote:
On Wednesday, 6 February 2019 16:09:01 UTC, Jeroen Belleman wrote:
Do we have a handy term to say that two sinusoidal waves
of equal frequency differ only by amplitude and phase?
I would say 'correlated', but would that be the most
common term?

'same frequency' also works, though it's arguable whether it rules out the possibility of slight frequency difference.

"Identical frequency" would be better, but "phase-locked" puts the idea more forcefully.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

Jeroen Belleman
Guest

Thu Feb 07, 2019 2:45 pm

George Herold wrote:
Quote:
On Wednesday, February 6, 2019 at 11:09:01 AM UTC-5, Jeroen Belleman wrote:
Do we have a handy term to say that two sinusoidal waves
of equal frequency differ only by amplitude and phase?
I would say 'correlated', but would that be the most
common term?

Jeroen Belleman

Same frequency, different amplitude and phase, is the best I can do :^)

I'd be using the term in a write-up about frequency-domain
reflectometry. I'm trying to put together a clear argument
that a terminating impedance different from Z0 is equivalent
to a signal of equal frequency, but different in amplitude
and phase being injected in the backward direction from
a Z0 impedance source.

In other words, that one can make a terminating Z0
impedance look like any impedance by putting another source
of the correct phase and amplitude in series with it.

As you can see from the above, I have trouble wording
this clearly and concisely.

Jeroen Belleman
(You don't understand a theory if you can't explain

Gerhard Hoffmann
Guest

Thu Feb 07, 2019 2:45 pm

Am 07.02.19 um 13:51 schrieb Jeroen Belleman:

Quote:
(You don't understand a theory if you can't explain

Learning by teaching (Feynman)

George Herold
Guest

Thu Feb 07, 2019 3:45 pm

On Thursday, February 7, 2019 at 7:51:43 AM UTC-5, Jeroen Belleman wrote:
Quote:
George Herold wrote:
On Wednesday, February 6, 2019 at 11:09:01 AM UTC-5, Jeroen Belleman wrote:
Do we have a handy term to say that two sinusoidal waves
of equal frequency differ only by amplitude and phase?
I would say 'correlated', but would that be the most
common term?

Jeroen Belleman

Same frequency, different amplitude and phase, is the best I can do :^)

I'd be using the term in a write-up about frequency-domain
reflectometry. I'm trying to put together a clear argument
that a terminating impedance different from Z0 is equivalent
to a signal of equal frequency, but different in amplitude
and phase being injected in the backward direction from
a Z0 impedance source.

In other words, that one can make a terminating Z0
impedance look like any impedance by putting another source
of the correct phase and amplitude in series with it.

As you can see from the above, I have trouble wording
this clearly and concisely.

Jeroen Belleman
(You don't understand a theory if you can't explain

An unmatched impedance will give a reflected wave at the same frequency, but different amplitude and phase.

George

Jeroen Belleman
Guest

Thu Feb 07, 2019 3:45 pm

George Herold wrote:
Quote:
On Thursday, February 7, 2019 at 7:51:43 AM UTC-5, Jeroen Belleman wrote:
George Herold wrote:
On Wednesday, February 6, 2019 at 11:09:01 AM UTC-5, Jeroen Belleman wrote:
Do we have a handy term to say that two sinusoidal waves
of equal frequency differ only by amplitude and phase?
I would say 'correlated', but would that be the most
common term?

Jeroen Belleman
Same frequency, different amplitude and phase, is the best I can do :^)

I'd be using the term in a write-up about frequency-domain
reflectometry. I'm trying to put together a clear argument
that a terminating impedance different from Z0 is equivalent
to a signal of equal frequency, but different in amplitude
and phase being injected in the backward direction from
a Z0 impedance source.

In other words, that one can make a terminating Z0
impedance look like any impedance by putting another source
of the correct phase and amplitude in series with it.

As you can see from the above, I have trouble wording
this clearly and concisely.

Jeroen Belleman
(You don't understand a theory if you can't explain

An unmatched impedance will give a reflected wave at the same frequency, but different amplitude and phase.

George

Thanks George, but I clearly failed to get my point across.
My point was that this is indistinguishable from injecting
a well-chosen backwards travelling signal through a matched
impedance.

Jeroen Belleman

Phil Hobbs
Guest

Thu Feb 07, 2019 4:45 pm

On 2/7/19 8:00 AM, Gerhard Hoffmann wrote:
Quote:
Am 07.02.19 um 13:51 schrieb Jeroen Belleman:

(You don't understand a theory if you can't explain

Learning by teaching (Feynman)

Yup. If you really want to learn some subject, write a book on it. ;)

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

http://electrooptical.net
http://hobbs-eo.com

George Herold
Guest

Thu Feb 07, 2019 5:45 pm

On Thursday, February 7, 2019 at 9:26:55 AM UTC-5, Jeroen Belleman wrote:
Quote:
George Herold wrote:
On Thursday, February 7, 2019 at 7:51:43 AM UTC-5, Jeroen Belleman wrote:
George Herold wrote:
On Wednesday, February 6, 2019 at 11:09:01 AM UTC-5, Jeroen Belleman wrote:
Do we have a handy term to say that two sinusoidal waves
of equal frequency differ only by amplitude and phase?
I would say 'correlated', but would that be the most
common term?

Jeroen Belleman
Same frequency, different amplitude and phase, is the best I can do :^)

I'd be using the term in a write-up about frequency-domain
reflectometry. I'm trying to put together a clear argument
that a terminating impedance different from Z0 is equivalent
to a signal of equal frequency, but different in amplitude
and phase being injected in the backward direction from
a Z0 impedance source.

In other words, that one can make a terminating Z0
impedance look like any impedance by putting another source
of the correct phase and amplitude in series with it.

As you can see from the above, I have trouble wording
this clearly and concisely.

Jeroen Belleman
(You don't understand a theory if you can't explain

An unmatched impedance will give a reflected wave at the same frequency, but different amplitude and phase.

George

Thanks George, but I clearly failed to get my point across.
My point was that this is indistinguishable from injecting
a well-chosen backwards travelling signal through a matched
impedance.

Jeroen Belleman

So this is CW reflectometry?

George H.

Guest

Thu Feb 07, 2019 10:45 pm

bloggs.fredbloggs.fred_at_gmail.com wrote in

Quote:
On Thursday, February 7, 2019 at 7:51:43 AM UTC-5, Jeroen Belleman
wrote:
George Herold wrote:
On Wednesday, February 6, 2019 at 11:09:01 AM UTC-5, Jeroen
Belleman wrote:
Do we have a handy term to say that two sinusoidal waves
of equal frequency differ only by amplitude and phase?
I would say 'correlated', but would that be the most
common term?

Jeroen Belleman

Same frequency, different amplitude and phase, is the best I
can do :^)

I'd be using the term in a write-up about frequency-domain
reflectometry. I'm trying to put together a clear argument
that a terminating impedance different from Z0 is equivalent
to a signal of equal frequency, but different in amplitude
and phase being injected in the backward direction from
a Z0 impedance source.

In other words, that one can make a terminating Z0
impedance look like any impedance by putting another source
of the correct phase and amplitude in series with it.

As you can see from the above, I have trouble wording
this clearly and concisely.

Jeroen Belleman
(You don't understand a theory if you can't explain

Call it the simulated return wave.

stimulated.

Guest

Thu Feb 07, 2019 10:45 pm

On Thursday, February 7, 2019 at 7:51:43 AM UTC-5, Jeroen Belleman wrote:
Quote:
George Herold wrote:
On Wednesday, February 6, 2019 at 11:09:01 AM UTC-5, Jeroen Belleman wrote:
Do we have a handy term to say that two sinusoidal waves
of equal frequency differ only by amplitude and phase?
I would say 'correlated', but would that be the most
common term?

Jeroen Belleman

Same frequency, different amplitude and phase, is the best I can do :^)

I'd be using the term in a write-up about frequency-domain
reflectometry. I'm trying to put together a clear argument
that a terminating impedance different from Z0 is equivalent
to a signal of equal frequency, but different in amplitude
and phase being injected in the backward direction from
a Z0 impedance source.

In other words, that one can make a terminating Z0
impedance look like any impedance by putting another source
of the correct phase and amplitude in series with it.

As you can see from the above, I have trouble wording
this clearly and concisely.

Jeroen Belleman
(You don't understand a theory if you can't explain

Call it the simulated return wave.

Guest

Thu Feb 07, 2019 10:45 pm

>"** Varying phase difference means the frequencies are not identical - fuckwit. "

Look you illiterate sot, (am I doing well here ?) that is almost what I said but what if both of them are locked to WWV or some shit ? One would not be derived from the other.

Guest

Thu Feb 07, 2019 11:45 pm

jurb6006_at_gmail.com wrote in

Quote:
""Phase-locked" strikes me as better."

That seems linguistically better. The OP wanted frequency the same
but phase locked does not specify frequency. In fact one of these
days, probably this year... Since the audiophiles seem to like
second harmonic distortion in their single ended triode amps, I
want to see what the phase relationship does to the sound. In
generally the second harmonic pollution is locked to the
fundamental, but the phase is almost always exactly 0º or 180º
due to its source.

Once I got results I will send them to the asylum, and asylum is
right, fifty grand for a turntable is insane. They're starting to
approach the cost of the lathe that cuts the record.

I have heard "both" phases of third harmonic distortion, but only
at 0º or 180º.

Phase locked, or phase and frequency locked is the way to put it,
IMO.

Just find a good machinist friend and have him cut you a custom
heavy platter for your cheaper drive, and then suspend it from
rubber bands (the entire turntable) instead of putting it on a stand
or floor connected hard mount.

That's as pro as it gets. All you need to do is decide on
material(s) and construction. Get the mass right and you excede
their methods. Press a nice, sintered bronze bearing into it and
slide it onto a hard, micro-polished center shaft, and knock 'em all

Of course, my \$80 plastic POS sounded just as good, as long as you
played it from another room than the one with the sound playback,
and put a nice \$150 Ortofon cartridge on it (1984 dollars). It made
scratched recordings sound good. Best cartridge I ever owned/used.

Guest

Thu Feb 07, 2019 11:45 pm

>""Phase-locked" strikes me as better."

That seems linguistically better. The OP wanted frequency the same but phase locked does not specify frequency. In fact one of these days, probably this year... Since the audiophiles seem to like second harmonic distortion in their single ended triode amps, I want to see what the phase relationship does to the sound. In generally the second harmonic pollution is locked to the fundamental, but the phase is almost always exactly 0º or 180º due to its source.

Once I got results I will send them to the asylum, and asylum is right, fifty grand for a turntable is insane. They're starting to approach the cost of the lathe that cuts the record.

I have heard "both" phases of third harmonic distortion, but only at 0º or 180º.

Phase locked, or phase and frequency locked is the way to put it, IMO.

Phil Allison
Guest

Fri Feb 08, 2019 12:45 am

jurb...@gmail.com wrote:

Quote:
"** Varying phase difference means the frequencies are not identical - fuckwit. "

Look you illiterate sot,

** Go fuck yourself !!!!

You PIG ignorant, retarded, stinking TROLL !!!!!!!!!!

Phil Hobbs
Guest

Fri Feb 08, 2019 1:45 am

On 2/7/19 4:53 PM, jurb6006_at_gmail.com wrote:
Quote:
""Phase-locked" strikes me as better."

That seems linguistically better. The OP wanted frequency the same but phase locked does not specify frequency. In fact one of these days, probably this year... Since the audiophiles seem to like second harmonic distortion in their single ended triode amps, I want to see what the phase relationship does to the sound. In generally the second harmonic pollution is locked to the fundamental, but the phase is almost always exactly 0º or 180º due to its source.

Once I got results I will send them to the asylum, and asylum is right, fifty grand for a turntable is insane. They're starting to approach the cost of the lathe that cuts the record.

I have heard "both" phases of third harmonic distortion, but only at 0º or 180º.

Phase locked, or phase and frequency locked is the way to put it, IMO.

"Phase locked" implies to me that (a) some sort of PLL is involved,
which may be true but is not inherent in the idea of two sine waves of
different amplitudes and phases but the same (average) frequency.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

http://electrooptical.net
http://hobbs-eo.com

Guest

Fri Feb 08, 2019 1:45 am

Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless_at_electrooptical.net> wrote in
news:q3ih0r\$fn\$1_at_dont-email.me:

Quote:
On 2/7/19 4:53 PM, jurb6006_at_gmail.com wrote:
""Phase-locked" strikes me as better."

That seems linguistically better. The OP wanted frequency the
same but phase locked does not specify frequency. In fact one of
these days, probably this year... Since the audiophiles seem to
like second harmonic distortion in their single ended triode
amps, I want to see what the phase relationship does to the
sound. In generally the second harmonic pollution is locked to
the fundamental, but the phase is almost always exactly 0º or
180º due to its source.

Once I got results I will send them to the asylum, and asylum is
right, fifty grand for a turntable is insane. They're starting to
approach the cost of the lathe that cuts the record.

I have heard "both" phases of third harmonic distortion, but only
at 0º or 180º.

Phase locked, or phase and frequency locked is the way to put it,
IMO.

"Phase locked" implies to me that (a) some sort of PLL is
involved, which may be true but is not inherent in the idea of two
sine waves of different amplitudes and phases but the same
(average) frequency.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

The military uses both 1 pps and 10MHz and even has timestamped
pings that get sent. Everything else can get referenced to that for
synching, etc.

quote:

10MHz is a frequency reference, PPS is a time reference
its an important distinction.

You use 10 MHz to discipline the oscillators in connected
equipment so that they having matching and accurate frequency.
You use PPS to coordinate time (As in wall clock) between
devices, often in connection with a UTC time value emitted
via the RS232 port on the GPSDO.

The PPS signal is already synchronous to the 10MHz clock
in such a way that all connected devices will sample a
PPS edge on the same 10MHz clock edge.
/quote

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