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Fred Bartoli
Guest
Tue Aug 31, 2010 10:22 pm
Well, not exactly.
I'm consulted for an odd thing.
The customer have an old complex 68K based analog system that's
developing a weirdo bug in the analog section.
I'll be given the schematics and partly reversed SW, but I anticipate
I'll need to have some control over the up and will need to have some bk
points, do some stepping since interactions between the logic and analog
parts are rather complex...
Now, all I have is a 16900A logic analyzer with some 16741A data
acquisition boards that's never been fired so I don't know the capabilities.
Anyone knowing if it's possible to make it not only scope and store the
busses activity, but also interact with the uP, like emulating an (OK
rather crude) in-situ emulator or something? Maybe at the expense of an
additional board...
Or suggestions for some other cheap solution...
--
Thanks,
Fred.
Tim Wescott
Guest
Tue Aug 31, 2010 11:15 pm
On 08/31/2010 02:22 PM, Fred Bartoli wrote:
Quote:
Well, not exactly.
I'm consulted for an odd thing.
The customer have an old complex 68K based analog system that's
developing a weirdo bug in the analog section.
I'll be given the schematics and partly reversed SW, but I anticipate
I'll need to have some control over the up and will need to have some bk
points, do some stepping since interactions between the logic and analog
parts are rather complex...
Now, all I have is a 16900A logic analyzer with some 16741A data
acquisition boards that's never been fired so I don't know the
capabilities.
Anyone knowing if it's possible to make it not only scope and store the
busses activity, but also interact with the uP, like emulating an (OK
rather crude) in-situ emulator or something? Maybe at the expense of an
additional board...
Or suggestions for some other cheap solution...
AFAIK a logic analyzer will be passive, but if you have enough inputs to
fully monitor the bus and if you have fancy enough software it'll do
disassembly on the fly. For than era of micro, doing that sort of task,
it may be better than an emulator.
--
Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Services
http://www.wescottdesign.com
Do you need to implement control loops in software?
"Applied Control Theory for Embedded Systems" was written for you.
See details at
http://www.wescottdesign.com/actfes/actfes.html
PeterD
Guest
Wed Sep 01, 2010 12:03 am
On Tue, 31 Aug 2010 23:22:45 +0200, Fred Bartoli <" "> wrote:
Quote:
Well, not exactly.
I'm consulted for an odd thing.
The customer have an old complex 68K based analog system that's
developing a weirdo bug in the analog section.
I'll be given the schematics and partly reversed SW, but I anticipate
I'll need to have some control over the up and will need to have some bk
points, do some stepping since interactions between the logic and analog
parts are rather complex...
Now, all I have is a 16900A logic analyzer with some 16741A data
acquisition boards that's never been fired so I don't know the capabilities.
Anyone knowing if it's possible to make it not only scope and store the
busses activity, but also interact with the uP, like emulating an (OK
rather crude) in-situ emulator or something? Maybe at the expense of an
additional board...
Or suggestions for some other cheap solution...
What is the device exactly? Perhaps a keyboard for example...
As to your original question, many good logic analizers will read the
op codes/data along with the CPU, and display disassembled code (with
data) on the screen. You can set them to trigger at the point there is
a problem (assuming you know when the problem happens).
Why do you think the software has failed? Seems to me that it is a
hardware problem?
John Larkin
Guest
Wed Sep 01, 2010 12:34 am
On Tue, 31 Aug 2010 23:22:45 +0200, Fred Bartoli <" "> wrote:
Quote:
Well, not exactly.
I'm consulted for an odd thing.
The customer have an old complex 68K based analog system that's
developing a weirdo bug in the analog section.
I'll be given the schematics and partly reversed SW, but I anticipate
I'll need to have some control over the up and will need to have some bk
points, do some stepping since interactions between the logic and analog
parts are rather complex...
Now, all I have is a 16900A logic analyzer with some 16741A data
acquisition boards that's never been fired so I don't know the capabilities.
Anyone knowing if it's possible to make it not only scope and store the
busses activity, but also interact with the uP, like emulating an (OK
rather crude) in-situ emulator or something? Maybe at the expense of an
additional board...
Or suggestions for some other cheap solution...
Which CPU?
John
Kevin McMurtrie
Guest
Wed Sep 01, 2010 1:26 am
In article <4c7d72a5$0$29794$426a34cc_at_news.free.fr>, Fred Bartoli <" ">
wrote:
Quote:
Well, not exactly.
I'm consulted for an odd thing.
The customer have an old complex 68K based analog system that's
developing a weirdo bug in the analog section.
I'll be given the schematics and partly reversed SW, but I anticipate
I'll need to have some control over the up and will need to have some bk
points, do some stepping since interactions between the logic and analog
parts are rather complex...
Now, all I have is a 16900A logic analyzer with some 16741A data
acquisition boards that's never been fired so I don't know the capabilities.
Anyone knowing if it's possible to make it not only scope and store the
busses activity, but also interact with the uP, like emulating an (OK
rather crude) in-situ emulator or something? Maybe at the expense of an
additional board...
Or suggestions for some other cheap solution...
68K Macintoshes contained a ROM micro-debugger that processed simple
commands through a text window or a serial port. Developers could point
the NMI handler to it when MacsBug wasn't suitable. I think the
micro-debugger was part of a Motorola development kit so there's a
chance that this computer has it in the ROM too.
Google considers all of this to be obsolete information that shouldn't
be returned in searches. Good luck.
--
I won't see Google Groups replies because I must filter them as spam
Robert Baer
Guest
Wed Sep 01, 2010 8:44 am
Fred Bartoli wrote:
Quote:
Well, not exactly.
I'm consulted for an odd thing.
The customer have an old complex 68K based analog system that's
developing a weirdo bug in the analog section.
I'll be given the schematics and partly reversed SW, but I anticipate
I'll need to have some control over the up and will need to have some bk
points, do some stepping since interactions between the logic and analog
parts are rather complex...
Now, all I have is a 16900A logic analyzer with some 16741A data
acquisition boards that's never been fired so I don't know the
capabilities.
Anyone knowing if it's possible to make it not only scope and store the
busses activity, but also interact with the uP, like emulating an (OK
rather crude) in-situ emulator or something? Maybe at the expense of an
additional board...
Or suggestions for some other cheap solution...
Try something "weird" like (linear) mapping (of) RAM to a video display..
Fred Bartoli
Guest
Wed Sep 01, 2010 10:52 am
John Larkin a écrit :
Quote:
On Tue, 31 Aug 2010 23:22:45 +0200, Fred Bartoli <" "> wrote:
Well, not exactly.
I'm consulted for an odd thing.
The customer have an old complex 68K based analog system that's
developing a weirdo bug in the analog section.
I'll be given the schematics and partly reversed SW, but I anticipate
I'll need to have some control over the up and will need to have some bk
points, do some stepping since interactions between the logic and analog
parts are rather complex...
Now, all I have is a 16900A logic analyzer with some 16741A data
acquisition boards that's never been fired so I don't know the capabilities.
Anyone knowing if it's possible to make it not only scope and store the
busses activity, but also interact with the uP, like emulating an (OK
rather crude) in-situ emulator or something? Maybe at the expense of an
additional board...
Or suggestions for some other cheap solution...
Which CPU?
68000, fortunately DIP64 which allows easy probing since it's not socketed.
--
Thanks,
Fred.
Fred Bartoli
Guest
Wed Sep 01, 2010 11:08 am
PeterD a écrit :
Quote:
On Tue, 31 Aug 2010 23:22:45 +0200, Fred Bartoli <" "> wrote:
Well, not exactly.
I'm consulted for an odd thing.
The customer have an old complex 68K based analog system that's
developing a weirdo bug in the analog section.
I'll be given the schematics and partly reversed SW, but I anticipate
I'll need to have some control over the up and will need to have some bk
points, do some stepping since interactions between the logic and analog
parts are rather complex...
Now, all I have is a 16900A logic analyzer with some 16741A data
acquisition boards that's never been fired so I don't know the capabilities.
Anyone knowing if it's possible to make it not only scope and store the
busses activity, but also interact with the uP, like emulating an (OK
rather crude) in-situ emulator or something? Maybe at the expense of an
additional board...
Or suggestions for some other cheap solution...
What is the device exactly? Perhaps a keyboard for example...
Not at liberty to tell.
Quote:
As to your original question, many good logic analizers will read the
op codes/data along with the CPU, and display disassembled code (with
data) on the screen. You can set them to trigger at the point there is
a problem (assuming you know when the problem happens).
Why do you think the software has failed? Seems to me that it is a
hardware problem?
No, it's the HW that fails. But not understanding all the process
details from the schematics (a pair of undocumented FPGAs are involved),
I need to have some way to BKP and step execute the SW.
The POST returns some cryptic error message, but then the systems seems
to work accurately and within limits...
Anyway this is a critical system and the customer at least needs to
understand what's happening, and preferably have it fixed, which should
be easy when understanding the fault.
--
Thanks,
Fred.
Fred Bartoli
Guest
Wed Sep 01, 2010 11:17 am
Robert Baer a écrit :
Quote:
Fred Bartoli wrote:
Well, not exactly.
I'm consulted for an odd thing.
The customer have an old complex 68K based analog system that's
developing a weirdo bug in the analog section.
I'll be given the schematics and partly reversed SW, but I anticipate
I'll need to have some control over the up and will need to have some
bk points, do some stepping since interactions between the logic and
analog parts are rather complex...
Now, all I have is a 16900A logic analyzer with some 16741A data
acquisition boards that's never been fired so I don't know the
capabilities.
Anyone knowing if it's possible to make it not only scope and store
the busses activity, but also interact with the uP, like emulating an
(OK rather crude) in-situ emulator or something? Maybe at the expense
of an additional board...
Or suggestions for some other cheap solution...
Try something "weird" like (linear) mapping (of) RAM to a video display..
???
--
Thanks,
Fred.
PeterD
Guest
Wed Sep 01, 2010 12:24 pm
On Wed, 01 Sep 2010 12:08:59 +0200, Fred Bartoli <" "> wrote:
Quote:
PeterD a écrit :
On Tue, 31 Aug 2010 23:22:45 +0200, Fred Bartoli <" "> wrote:
Well, not exactly.
I'm consulted for an odd thing.
The customer have an old complex 68K based analog system that's
developing a weirdo bug in the analog section.
I'll be given the schematics and partly reversed SW, but I anticipate
I'll need to have some control over the up and will need to have some bk
points, do some stepping since interactions between the logic and analog
parts are rather complex...
Now, all I have is a 16900A logic analyzer with some 16741A data
acquisition boards that's never been fired so I don't know the capabilities.
Anyone knowing if it's possible to make it not only scope and store the
busses activity, but also interact with the uP, like emulating an (OK
rather crude) in-situ emulator or something? Maybe at the expense of an
additional board...
Or suggestions for some other cheap solution...
What is the device exactly? Perhaps a keyboard for example...
Not at liberty to tell.
Too bad, as likely there is someone here who may have experience. For
example, I've some experience with Kurzweil keyboards (powered by a
68K) and unless this is a custom one-off device I'm sure you will be
better off if you could tell...
Quote:
As to your original question, many good logic analizers will read the
op codes/data along with the CPU, and display disassembled code (with
data) on the screen. You can set them to trigger at the point there is
a problem (assuming you know when the problem happens).
Why do you think the software has failed? Seems to me that it is a
hardware problem?
No, it's the HW that fails. But not understanding all the process
details from the schematics (a pair of undocumented FPGAs are involved),
I need to have some way to BKP and step execute the SW.
The POST returns some cryptic error message,
What's the message?
Quote:
but then the systems seems
to work accurately and within limits...
Anyway this is a critical system and the customer at least needs to
understand what's happening, and preferably have it fixed, which should
be easy when understanding the fault.
Fred Bartoli
Guest
Wed Sep 01, 2010 1:29 pm
Tim Wescott a écrit :
Quote:
On 08/31/2010 02:22 PM, Fred Bartoli wrote:
Well, not exactly.
I'm consulted for an odd thing.
The customer have an old complex 68K based analog system that's
developing a weirdo bug in the analog section.
I'll be given the schematics and partly reversed SW, but I anticipate
I'll need to have some control over the up and will need to have some bk
points, do some stepping since interactions between the logic and analog
parts are rather complex...
Now, all I have is a 16900A logic analyzer with some 16741A data
acquisition boards that's never been fired so I don't know the
capabilities.
Anyone knowing if it's possible to make it not only scope and store the
busses activity, but also interact with the uP, like emulating an (OK
rather crude) in-situ emulator or something? Maybe at the expense of an
additional board...
Or suggestions for some other cheap solution...
AFAIK a logic analyzer will be passive, but if you have enough inputs to
fully monitor the bus and if you have fancy enough software it'll do
disassembly on the fly. For than era of micro, doing that sort of task,
it may be better than an emulator.
The 16900A is a pretty current LA and can do lots and lots of fancy
things. (discontinued last year or early 2010)
I don't want to buy the pattern generator board which would have allowed
lots of possibilities, but having poked a bit into the LA documentation
there seems to be a good solution:
The LA have a trigger output that's generated on the fly according to
the fancy conditions you setup. It also have one (slow) 8 bit port for
target control, like driving a reset, NMI,...
The LA can also be totally controlled through VBA (yeah it's an XP box).
I guess that all that, combined with a small PAL/CPLD connected to the
uP board and with some minimalist track butchering can solve my pb quite
easily and with reasonable handling.
--
Thanks,
Fred.
larya
Guest
Wed Sep 01, 2010 3:56 pm
On Aug 31, 5:22 pm, Fred Bartoli <" "> wrote:
Quote:
Well, not exactly.
I'm consulted for an odd thing.
The customer have an old complex 68K based analog system that's
developing a weirdo bug in the analog section.
I'll be given the schematics and partly reversed SW, but I anticipate
I'll need to have some control over the up and will need to have some bk
points, do some stepping since interactions between the logic and analog
parts are rather complex...
Now, all I have is a 16900A logic analyzer with some 16741A data
acquisition boards that's never been fired so I don't know the capabilities.
Anyone knowing if it's possible to make it not only scope and store the
busses activity, but also interact with the uP, like emulating an (OK
rather crude) in-situ emulator or something? Maybe at the expense of an
additional board...
Or suggestions for some other cheap solution...
--
Thanks,
Fred.
Greetings...
I must admit I know nothing about your system... However, I was
trained in electronics during the time when they taught us to how to
fix things at what we used to call the component level..
If the unit is somewhat old.. more than 10 years old, consider
resoldering the connections around the power supply... and even where
you have connectors to long cable lines..
You could have a bad soldering connection... this can happen if the
equipment is somewhat old...
Larry ve3fxq
Nico Coesel
Guest
Wed Sep 01, 2010 7:18 pm
Fred Bartoli <" "> wrote:
Quote:
Well, not exactly.
I'm consulted for an odd thing.
The customer have an old complex 68K based analog system that's
developing a weirdo bug in the analog section.
I'll be given the schematics and partly reversed SW, but I anticipate
I'll need to have some control over the up and will need to have some bk
points, do some stepping since interactions between the logic and analog
parts are rather complex...
Now, all I have is a 16900A logic analyzer with some 16741A data
acquisition boards that's never been fired so I don't know the capabilities.
Anyone knowing if it's possible to make it not only scope and store the
busses activity, but also interact with the uP, like emulating an (OK
rather crude) in-situ emulator or something? Maybe at the expense of an
additional board...
Or suggestions for some other cheap solution...
I'd verify the software is still OK (correct eprom contents). Next you
could verify the hardware (memory and peripherals) with a small test
program. If the digital section is OK then the problem must be
somewhere in the analog section. With old hardware you can expect
anything.
I doubt a logic analyzer will do much good until you can pin-point an
error and set a trigger condition.
--
Failure does not prove something is impossible, failure simply
indicates you are not using the right tools...
nico_at_nctdevpuntnl (punt=.)
--------------------------------------------------------------
Martin Riddle
Guest
Thu Sep 02, 2010 12:15 am
"Fred Bartoli" <" "> wrote in message
news:4c7d72a5$0$29794$426a34cc_at_news.free.fr...
Quote:
Well, not exactly.
I'm consulted for an odd thing.
The customer have an old complex 68K based analog system that's
developing a weirdo bug in the analog section.
I'll be given the schematics and partly reversed SW, but I anticipate
I'll need to have some control over the up and will need to have some
bk points, do some stepping since interactions between the logic and
analog parts are rather complex...
Now, all I have is a 16900A logic analyzer with some 16741A data
acquisition boards that's never been fired so I don't know the
capabilities.
Anyone knowing if it's possible to make it not only scope and store
the busses activity, but also interact with the uP, like emulating an
(OK rather crude) in-situ emulator or something? Maybe at the expense
of an additional board...
Or suggestions for some other cheap solution...
--
Thanks,
Fred.
Pickup an old Fluke 9000A and a 68K pod?
I'd think you'd be better off to get an old Nohau emulator.
http://www.nohau.com/
Cheers
JosephKK
Guest
Sat Sep 04, 2010 8:10 pm
On Wed, 01 Sep 2010 12:17:21 +0200, Fred Bartoli <" "> wrote:
Quote:
Robert Baer a écrit :
Fred Bartoli wrote:
Well, not exactly.
I'm consulted for an odd thing.
The customer have an old complex 68K based analog system that's
developing a weirdo bug in the analog section.
I'll be given the schematics and partly reversed SW, but I anticipate
I'll need to have some control over the up and will need to have some
bk points, do some stepping since interactions between the logic and
analog parts are rather complex...
Now, all I have is a 16900A logic analyzer with some 16741A data
acquisition boards that's never been fired so I don't know the
capabilities.
Anyone knowing if it's possible to make it not only scope and store
the busses activity, but also interact with the uP, like emulating an
(OK rather crude) in-situ emulator or something? Maybe at the expense
of an additional board...
Or suggestions for some other cheap solution...
Try something "weird" like (linear) mapping (of) RAM to a video display..
???
AKA as the video card trick.
Another technique is a pair of DAC one for address and one for data to
drive a scope in the XY mode. Does anybody know of a DSO that does XY
mode?
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