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Guest

Mon Jan 28, 2019 6:45 pm   



>"There seem to be enough pricks round here to compensate though. Wink "

They go for about $6 million per inch.

https://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/sdut-jury-awards-man-penis-injury-75-million-2012jan13-story.html

Not that you can necessarily sell it for that, in his case the inches were taken without due process or just compensation. Poor insurance company {:-(

I could see the court case now...insurance lawyer "We ain't paying for DICK !", "Yes you are".


Guest

Tue Jan 29, 2019 3:45 am   



On Tuesday, January 29, 2019 at 12:13:58 AM UTC+11, tabb...@gmail.com wrote:
Quote:
On Monday, 28 January 2019 12:25:02 UTC, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
On Monday, January 28, 2019 at 7:55:09 PM UTC+11, tabb wrote:
On Monday, 28 January 2019 02:14:34 UTC, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
On Monday, January 28, 2019 at 12:31:19 PM UTC+11, tabby wrote:
On Sunday, 27 January 2019 21:51:26 UTC, jurb...@gmail.com wrote:

I don't know if you are referring to the obesity or the penis size. However I have done quite a bit of research ion the subject and find that malnutrition is definitely a contributing factor to obesity. The body is not satisfied, the problem is it can't tell you what it needs. Like "Hey, how bout some magnesium and vitamin E ? Whaddya say ?". So people fill up on more sugar, salt and carbs. And the USDA says NOTHING about it. that is ONE real advantage to socialized medicine, you get sick they don't get rich.. They have a vested interest in your health. Here you're a cash cow.

NHS staff only get paid if people are sick. Half of them only get paid if lots of people are chronically sick. I sure wish they had a vested interest in patients being healthy.

This is tabb being as idiotic as ever. Once people get hired by the NHS, their income doesn't depend on the number of people they treat. The whole NHS philosophy is to hire only just as many people as they need, so NHS staff tend to be somewhat over-worked.

Heh. Thus if less people are treated as chronically sick a lot of them lose their jobs. Duh.

And tabb knows some magic formula that would convert the chronically sick into productive workers,

There are many effective treatments that the NHS doesn't use. Some for fair reasons, many for nonfactual reasons. If NICE were really competent the NHS could do a much better job. No magic required.


Name at least one - preferably several if there are "many" of them. You've endorsed laetrile here

https://www.cancerresearchuk.org/about-cancer/cancer-in-general/treatment/complementary-alternative-therapies/individual-therapies/laetrile

If NICE were incompetent enough to let the NHS waste money on that particular scam you'd probably like them better.

Quote:
and imagines that the NHS is conspiring to withhold this treatment in order to have more patients to treat.

that's oversimplistic. Often the NHS does what it can, but there are too many pockets of malpractice, ignorance, misinformation & just plain stupidity. Misinformation is the main basis of the problem.


Sadly, the fact that you are grossly ill-informed is what makes you think that the NHS has pockets of malpractice, ignorance, misinformation & just plain stupidity. The NHS is adequate and you aren't the kind of critic they should be taking seriously.

Quote:
If I asked him nicely, he might even tell me the disease and his fantasy treatment, but it's still going to be another bizarre conspiracy theory.

no fantasies required.


Since you haven't named a single disease, despite claiming that many exist, the fantasy you are trying to propagate is that you know what you are talking about, as opposed to blowing smoke.

Quote:
Free market medicine - as practiced in the US

Lol. It so is not. Africa is more like free market medicine.

Not enough medicos, too many patients, and nowhere near enough resources to support any kind of medical system beyond minimal anti-plague.

rubbish. If you can pay for healthcare you can get it.


And hardly anybody can, which leave huge pools of infectious disease.

Quote:
American medicine practices professional birth control to keep doctors scarce enough to be expensive - which is free market 101

artificial scarcity is not a free market.


But it's what free markets conspire to impose, if they get half a chance, as was pointed out by Adam Smith

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/commentators/andrew-simms-adam-smith-was-right-businesses-cant-help-colluding-763811.html

Quote:
- but in Africa the medicos don't have to bother.

US medicine is uniquely messed up.

American medicine works really well for people who work in the business,

No it doesn't. All one can say of it is it's highly profitable.


So what is wrong with American medicine for people who work in the business, that takes away enough from it being "highly profitable" to make it work less than really well for them?

> A free market would correct that.

Ask any free market ideologue. Well regarded and effective health care systems are all tightly regulated. Some competition between providers is possible in most of them - the NHS is more regulated than most - but it's not an area where the free market works well.

Quote:
and the business of selling medical insurance is pretty profitable too.

The performance of the American system at keeping people healthy isn't great.

https://www.who.int/healthinfo/paper30.pdf

puts them 37th - the league table is on page 18 of the document.

- costs twice as much per head, and delivers poorer outcomes. It's a really silly way of sorting out priorities in health care, but the Americans believe in it, as they believe in motherhood and apple pie.

Extortionate prices, effective treatments banned, inappropriate practices routine, mediocre outcomes.


Except that you can't be bother to specify which effective treatments are banned - based on you previous post here you seem to think that these include laetrile.

Quote:
ego based junk snipped

more ego based junk snipped. ICBA with it, you're incorrigible.

You'll slide from attempting rational argument into 100% ego bs very soon..


You are an obvious 100% ego bs-artist. The fact that you won't provided specific examples of the silly ideas you endorse makes it painfully obvious that don't know what rational argument is about, and want to pose as knowledgeable without providing any evidence that you know anything useful.

You have been poncing about here for years doing that, and I'm going to keep on pointing it out at every opportunity.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney


Guest

Tue Jan 29, 2019 8:45 am   



On Tuesday, 29 January 2019 01:46:03 UTC, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
Quote:
On Tuesday, January 29, 2019 at 12:13:58 AM UTC+11, tabby wrote:
On Monday, 28 January 2019 12:25:02 UTC, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
On Monday, January 28, 2019 at 7:55:09 PM UTC+11, tabb wrote:
On Monday, 28 January 2019 02:14:34 UTC, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
On Monday, January 28, 2019 at 12:31:19 PM UTC+11, tabby wrote:
On Sunday, 27 January 2019 21:51:26 UTC, jurb...@gmail.com wrote:

I don't know if you are referring to the obesity or the penis size. However I have done quite a bit of research ion the subject and find that malnutrition is definitely a contributing factor to obesity. The body is not satisfied, the problem is it can't tell you what it needs. Like "Hey, how bout some magnesium and vitamin E ? Whaddya say ?". So people fill up on more sugar, salt and carbs. And the USDA says NOTHING about it. that is ONE real advantage to socialized medicine, you get sick they don't get rich. They have a vested interest in your health. Here you're a cash cow.

NHS staff only get paid if people are sick. Half of them only get paid if lots of people are chronically sick. I sure wish they had a vested interest in patients being healthy.

This is tabb being as idiotic as ever. Once people get hired by the NHS, their income doesn't depend on the number of people they treat. The whole NHS philosophy is to hire only just as many people as they need, so NHS staff tend to be somewhat over-worked.

Heh. Thus if less people are treated as chronically sick a lot of them lose their jobs. Duh.

And tabb knows some magic formula that would convert the chronically sick into productive workers,

There are many effective treatments that the NHS doesn't use. Some for fair reasons, many for nonfactual reasons. If NICE were really competent the NHS could do a much better job. No magic required.

Name at least one - preferably several if there are "many" of them. You've endorsed laetrile here

https://www.cancerresearchuk.org/about-cancer/cancer-in-general/treatment/complementary-alternative-therapies/individual-therapies/laetrile

If NICE were incompetent enough to let the NHS waste money on that particular scam you'd probably like them better.

and imagines that the NHS is conspiring to withhold this treatment in order to have more patients to treat.

that's oversimplistic. Often the NHS does what it can, but there are too many pockets of malpractice, ignorance, misinformation & just plain stupidity. Misinformation is the main basis of the problem.

Sadly, the fact that you are grossly ill-informed is what makes you think that the NHS has pockets of malpractice, ignorance, misinformation & just plain stupidity. The NHS is adequate and you aren't the kind of critic they should be taking seriously.

If I asked him nicely, he might even tell me the disease and his fantasy treatment, but it's still going to be another bizarre conspiracy theory..

no fantasies required.

Since you haven't named a single disease, despite claiming that many exist, the fantasy you are trying to propagate is that you know what you are talking about, as opposed to blowing smoke.


I seldom have any interest in discussing anything with you. Your fantasy that I must want to, and thus any refusal to must be down to inability to stand my ground is just that, fantasy driven by your ego.

At the risk of pointing out the more than a little obvious, you simply don't have the relevant facts about me from which you could form an informed opinion. That leaves only one source of your beliefs: your imagination. Your failure to grasp that shows genuine density.


Quote:
Free market medicine - as practiced in the US

Lol. It so is not. Africa is more like free market medicine.

Not enough medicos, too many patients, and nowhere near enough resources to support any kind of medical system beyond minimal anti-plague.

rubbish. If you can pay for healthcare you can get it.

And hardly anybody can,


rubbish.

Quote:
which leave huge pools of infectious disease.

American medicine practices professional birth control to keep doctors scarce enough to be expensive - which is free market 101

artificial scarcity is not a free market.

But it's what free markets conspire to impose, if they get half a chance, as was pointed out by Adam Smith


whereupon they cease to be free markets.

Quote:
https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/commentators/andrew-simms-adam-smith-was-right-businesses-cant-help-colluding-763811.html

- but in Africa the medicos don't have to bother.

US medicine is uniquely messed up.

American medicine works really well for people who work in the business,

No it doesn't. All one can say of it is it's highly profitable.

So what is wrong with American medicine for people who work in the business, that takes away enough from it being "highly profitable" to make it work less than really well for them?

A free market would correct that.

Ask any free market ideologue. Well regarded and effective health care systems are all tightly regulated.


Some healthcare needs to be regulated to be good, some needs to not be. One reason is due to the difficulty of obtaining sufficient competence in regulators, there are other reasons.

There really is no model of an ideal healthcare system, they don't exist. But there are some clearly good & bad aspects of most systems. To call the NHS a good system would be naive.


Quote:
Some competition between providers is possible in most of them - the NHS is more regulated than most - but it's not an area where the free market works well.

and the business of selling medical insurance is pretty profitable too.

The performance of the American system at keeping people healthy isn't great.

https://www.who.int/healthinfo/paper30.pdf

puts them 37th - the league table is on page 18 of the document.

- costs twice as much per head, and delivers poorer outcomes. It's a really silly way of sorting out priorities in health care, but the Americans believe in it, as they believe in motherhood and apple pie.

Extortionate prices, effective treatments banned, inappropriate practices routine, mediocre outcomes.

Except that you can't be bother to specify which effective treatments are banned - based on you previous post here you seem to think that these include laetrile.

ego based junk snipped

more ego based junk snipped. ICBA with it, you're incorrigible.

You'll slide from attempting rational argument into 100% ego bs very soon.

You are an obvious 100% ego bs-artist.


Lol that was quick.

Quote:
The fact that you won't provided specific examples of the silly ideas you endorse makes it painfully obvious that don't know what rational argument is about, and want to pose as knowledgeable without providing any evidence that you know anything useful.

You have been poncing about here for years doing that, and I'm going to keep on pointing it out at every opportunity.


I seldom have any interest in discussing anything with you, and certainly not a complex time consuming topic.

I've nothing against ignorance, foolishness, stupidity etc, they're just part of life. But when the fool insists everyone else must be even more foolish and goes on & on & on about it, my interest in what they say evaporates. And I'm not the only one.


NT


Guest

Tue Jan 29, 2019 9:45 am   



On Tuesday, January 29, 2019 at 6:07:14 PM UTC+11, tabb...@gmail.com wrote:
Quote:
On Tuesday, 29 January 2019 01:46:03 UTC, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
On Tuesday, January 29, 2019 at 12:13:58 AM UTC+11, tabby wrote:
On Monday, 28 January 2019 12:25:02 UTC, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
On Monday, January 28, 2019 at 7:55:09 PM UTC+11, tabb wrote:
On Monday, 28 January 2019 02:14:34 UTC, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
On Monday, January 28, 2019 at 12:31:19 PM UTC+11, tabby wrote:
On Sunday, 27 January 2019 21:51:26 UTC, jurb...@gmail.com wrote:


<snip>

Quote:
Since you haven't named a single disease, despite claiming that many exist, the fantasy you are trying to propagate is that you know what you are talking about, as opposed to blowing smoke.

I seldom have any interest in discussing anything with you. Your fantasy that I must want to, and thus any refusal to must be down to inability to stand my ground is just that, fantasy driven by your ego.


You don't have interest is discussing anything with anybody. You post pretentious nonsense, and want to be admired for doing that. If you get questions, rather than admiration, you feel hurt and post resentful reactions.

Pity about that.

> At the risk of pointing out the more than a little obvious, you simply don't have the relevant facts about me from which you could form an informed opinion.

You don't post facts. What you do post makes it obvious that there's no point in paying any attention to what you do post. Absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence, but in your case the gap is persistent.

> That leaves only one source of your beliefs: your imagination. Your failure to grasp that shows genuine density.

Drivel. Unlike you, I know how actual experts behave, and you don't behave like any kind of expert. Quite the reverse in fact.

<snip>

Quote:
Ask any free market ideologue. Well regarded and effective health care systems are all tightly regulated.

Some healthcare needs to be regulated to be good, some needs to not be. One reason is due to the difficulty of obtaining sufficient competence in regulators, there are other reasons.


None of which you will be able to spell out.

> There really is no model of an ideal healthcare system, they don't exist. But there are some clearly good & bad aspects of most systems. To call the NHS a good system would be naive.

It performs pretty well in terms of keeping the UK population healthy and long-lived, and it is remarkably cost-effective.

<snip>

Quote:
You'll slide from attempting rational argument into 100% ego bs very soon.

You are an obvious 100% ego bs-artist.

Lol that was quick.


No slide involved. It's been obvious for some time that you are a "100% ego bs-artist" but I've been trying to get you to raise your game - a clearly futile exercise.

Quote:
The fact that you won't provided specific examples of the silly ideas you endorse makes it painfully obvious that don't know what rational argument is about, and want to pose as knowledgeable without providing any evidence that you know anything useful.

You have been poncing about here for years doing that, and I'm going to keep on pointing it out at every opportunity.

I seldom have any interest in discussing anything with you, and certainly not a complex time consuming topic.


Since you don't know anything worth posting, this doesn't come as a surprise.

> I've nothing against ignorance, foolishness, stupidity etc, they're just part of life.

And a prominent part of your life, since you seem to spend a lot time exhibiting them.

> But when the fool insists everyone else must be even more foolish and goes on & on & on about it, my interest in what they say evaporates. And I'm not the only one.

We do have other fools with inflated ideas of their own competence. You are up there with krw. Enjoy your elevated status.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

Martin Brown
Guest

Tue Jan 29, 2019 3:45 pm   



On 28/01/2019 08:55, tabbypurr_at_gmail.com wrote:
Quote:
On Monday, 28 January 2019 02:14:34 UTC, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
On Monday, January 28, 2019 at 12:31:19 PM UTC+11, tabby wrote:
On Sunday, 27 January 2019 21:51:26 UTC, jurb...@gmail.com
wrote:

I don't know if you are referring to the obesity or the penis
size. However I have done quite a bit of research ion the
subject and find that malnutrition is definitely a contributing
factor to obesity. The body is not satisfied, the problem is it
can't tell you what it needs. Like "Hey, how bout some
magnesium and vitamin E ? Whaddya say ?". So people fill up on
more sugar, salt and carbs. And the USDA says NOTHING about it.
that is ONE real advantage to socialized medicine, you get sick
they don't get rich. They have a vested interest in your
health. Here you're a cash cow.


Main problem is living in an energy rich environment. If you had to hunt
and catch beef still on the hoof and dig the spuds to get your supersize
McFatBurger with double fries then obesity wouldn't be a problem.

High fructose corn syrup in everything does US citizens no favours:

https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/20-foods-with-high-fructose-corn-syrup#section9

Quote:
NHS staff only get paid if people are sick. Half of them only get
paid if lots of people are chronically sick. I sure wish they had
a vested interest in patients being healthy.

This is tabb being as idiotic as ever. Once people get hired by the
NHS, their income doesn't depend on the number of people they
treat. The whole NHS philosophy is to hire only just as many people
as they need, so NHS staff tend to be somewhat over-worked.

Heh. Thus if less people are treated as chronically sick a lot of
them lose their jobs. Duh.


It would be so much easier to just ignore type II diabetes and
hypertension although it wouldn't do much for life expectancy.

Quote:
Free market medicine - as practiced in the US

Lol. It so is not. Africa is more like free market medicine. US
medicine is uniquely messed up.


US medicine is determined by hypochondria and ability to pay. This is
unfortunate since your earning ability tends to be one of the first
things to suffer if you are unlucky enough to be seriously ill.

Regions I have visited where medicine was truly "free market" are
exactly the places where the worst antibiotic resistant bacteria have
evolved due to misuse of antibiotics including the ones of last resort.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/health/superbug-gene-arctic-antibiotic-resistance-wilderness-svalbard-india-a8747221.html

Quote:
- costs twice as much per head, and delivers poorer outcomes. It's
a really silly way of sorting out priorites in health care, but the
American's believe in it, as they believe in motherhood and apple
pie.

ego based junk snipped


The US "health" system costs around twice the price of any other first
world health system but only delivers to those that can afford it.
Japanese or Continental models of healthcare achieve the same outcome
for everybody at around half the per capita cost in the USA.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown


Guest

Thu Jan 31, 2019 1:45 am   



On Tuesday, 29 January 2019 07:49:55 UTC, bill....@ieee.org wrote:

welcome back to the time wasting idiot filter.


Guest

Thu Jan 31, 2019 2:45 am   



On Thursday, January 31, 2019 at 11:37:43 AM UTC+11, tabb...@gmail.com wrote:
Quote:
On Tuesday, 29 January 2019 07:49:55 UTC, bill....@ieee.org wrote:

welcome back to the time wasting idiot filter.


I don't filter out time wasting idiots - I use them to practice my jeering technique.

This is the same tabb who told us that anthropogenic global warming stopped dead in 1998, when a particularly intense El Nino pushed up the global temperature by about 0.2C.

https://www.climate.gov/news-features/climate-qa/did-global-warming-stop-1998

The denialist propaganda machine made a lot of fuss about this for the next few years, and until another El Ninon came along.

Tabb believed the nonsense at the time, and played it back twenty years after the event, when it was long past its sell-by date.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney


Guest

Thu Jan 31, 2019 4:45 am   



On Tuesday, 29 January 2019 14:09:30 UTC, Martin Brown wrote:
Quote:
On 28/01/2019 08:55, tabbypurr wrote:
On Monday, 28 January 2019 02:14:34 UTC, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
On Monday, January 28, 2019 at 12:31:19 PM UTC+11, tabby wrote:
On Sunday, 27 January 2019 21:51:26 UTC, jurb...@gmail.com
wrote:

I don't know if you are referring to the obesity or

Main problem is living in an energy rich environment. If you had to hunt
and catch beef still on the hoof and dig the spuds to get your supersize
McFatBurger with double fries then obesity wouldn't be a problem.


But a lot would die when unable to hunt. We're better off as things are.


Quote:
High fructose corn syrup in everything does US citizens no favours:

https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/20-foods-with-high-fructose-corn-syrup#section9

NHS staff only get paid if people are sick. Half of them only get
paid if lots of people are chronically sick. I sure wish they had
a vested interest in patients being healthy.

This is tabb being as idiotic as ever. Once people get hired by the
NHS, their income doesn't depend on the number of people they
treat. The whole NHS philosophy is to hire only just as many people
as they need, so NHS staff tend to be somewhat over-worked.

Heh. Thus if less people are treated as chronically sick a lot of
them lose their jobs. Duh.

It would be so much easier to just ignore type II diabetes and
hypertension although it wouldn't do much for life expectancy.


an odd proposal

Quote:
Free market medicine - as practiced in the US

Lol. It so is not. Africa is more like free market medicine. US
medicine is uniquely messed up.

US medicine is determined by hypochondria and ability to pay. This is
unfortunate since your earning ability tends to be one of the first
things to suffer if you are unlucky enough to be seriously ill.


US medical practice is overly controlled. The result is excessive prices, frequent lack of access to healthcare and lack of access to useful treatments.


Quote:
Regions I have visited where medicine was truly "free market" are
exactly the places where the worst antibiotic resistant bacteria have
evolved due to misuse of antibiotics including the ones of last resort.


yup, every system has problems. And they're not minor.


NT

Quote:
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/health/superbug-gene-arctic-antibiotic-resistance-wilderness-svalbard-india-a8747221.html

- costs twice as much per head, and delivers poorer outcomes. It's
a really silly way of sorting out priorites in health care, but the
American's believe in it, as they believe in motherhood and apple
pie.

ego based junk snipped

The US "health" system costs around twice the price of any other first
world health system but only delivers to those that can afford it.
Japanese or Continental models of healthcare achieve the same outcome
for everybody at around half the per capita cost in the USA.



Guest

Thu Jan 31, 2019 6:45 am   



On Thursday, January 31, 2019 at 2:38:20 PM UTC+11, tabb...@gmail.com wrote:
Quote:
On Tuesday, 29 January 2019 14:09:30 UTC, Martin Brown wrote:
On 28/01/2019 08:55, tabbypurr wrote:
On Monday, 28 January 2019 02:14:34 UTC, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
On Monday, January 28, 2019 at 12:31:19 PM UTC+11, tabby wrote:
On Sunday, 27 January 2019 21:51:26 UTC, jurb...@gmail.com
wrote:

I don't know if you are referring to the obesity or

Main problem is living in an energy rich environment. If you had to hunt
and catch beef still on the hoof and dig the spuds to get your supersize
McFatBurger with double fries then obesity wouldn't be a problem.

But a lot would die when unable to hunt. We're better off as things are.


Human beings are social animals. If you can't hunt, your friends and neighbours feed you until you can. As long as there have been human being around, their skeletons show sign of damage which would have taken quite a while to heal, so they clearly got fed when they coudn't hunt - or forage.

Quote:
High fructose corn syrup in everything does US citizens no favours:

https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/20-foods-with-high-fructose-corn-syrup#section9

NHS staff only get paid if people are sick. Half of them only get
paid if lots of people are chronically sick. I sure wish they had
a vested interest in patients being healthy.

This is tabb being as idiotic as ever. Once people get hired by the
NHS, their income doesn't depend on the number of people they
treat. The whole NHS philosophy is to hire only just as many people
as they need, so NHS staff tend to be somewhat over-worked.

Heh. Thus if less people are treated as chronically sick a lot of
them lose their jobs. Duh.

It would be so much easier to just ignore type II diabetes and
hypertension although it wouldn't do much for life expectancy.

an odd proposal.


Satirical, rather than odd. Tebb's grasp of reality isn't sound, and his ideas aren't spelled out in enough detail to tell what he counts as chronic sickness or how he thinks the NHS ought to treat them. His history suggests that his list wouldn't be widely accepted, which is probably why he won't go into detail.

Quote:
Free market medicine - as practiced in the US

Lol. It so is not. Africa is more like free market medicine. US
medicine is uniquely messed up.

US medicine is determined by hypochondria and ability to pay. This is
unfortunate since your earning ability tends to be one of the first
things to suffer if you are unlucky enough to be seriously ill.

US medical practice is overly controlled. The result is excessive prices, frequent lack of access to healthcare and lack of access to useful treatments.


Only in the sense that US doctors control it to maintain excessive prices, which does cut off the less-well-off from many useful treatments.

Quote:
Regions I have visited where medicine was truly "free market" are
exactly the places where the worst antibiotic resistant bacteria have
evolved due to misuse of antibiotics including the ones of last resort.

yup, every system has problems. And they're not minor.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/health/superbug-gene-arctic-antibiotic-resistance-wilderness-svalbard-india-a8747221.html

- costs twice as much per head, and delivers poorer outcomes. It's
a really silly way of sorting out priorites in health care, but the
American's believe in it, as they believe in motherhood and apple
pie.

The US "health" system costs around twice the price of any other first
world health system but only delivers to those that can afford it.
Japanese or Continental models of healthcare achieve the same outcome
for everybody at around half the per capita cost in the USA.


--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

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