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Cydrome Leader
Guest
Mon Jun 21, 2010 6:22 pm
In sci.electronics.misc Benj <bjacoby_at_iwaynet.net> wrote:
Quote:
On Jun 17, 10:37?pm, RichD <r_delaney2...@yahoo.com> wrote:
Battery technology is an active area of research, but an
obvious question occurs to me: why is it, no one has determined
the maximum possible energy/volume, and energy/weight?
And from there, discover the chemistry which achieves it?
Is there some lacuna in our understanding of solid state physics
which necessitates an empirical, rather than theoretical approach?
Finding the max possible just shows you where you stand in the scheme
of what is possible. That is not our problem. The problem is to be
useful batteries must be useful. That means they must have a
reasonably long life (unlike the so commonly used non-liquid ni-cad
pieces of crap), they need to store as much energy as possible without
a lot of weight (hence the differences between lead and lithium), and
you don't want them to discharge by themselves as they sit around
(Nickel Metal Hydride), Hence the real problem as Uncle Al notes is
practicality.
Batteries are on the margin of useful presently but Lead-acid are
heavy. Ni-cads tend to die in a hurry especially if charged a lot. Ni-
MH tend to discharge just sitting, and Li-ion while very nice in a lot
of ways, tend to slowly sink into the sunset within about 5 years. And
this doesn't even get into what it costs to build these batteries.
Just doubling the life of Li-Ion batteries would go a long way toward
making an electric car decent. What good would "theoretical maximum"
storage do if the thing isn't practical?
You sound like you know batteries.
Do you know if any companies still make large prismatic NiHM cells, in
similar form factors to the flooded aircraft started NiCd batteries?
They used to exist for electric vehicle type applictions, but this was
quite some time ago. I've not seen any since.
John Fields
Guest
Mon Jun 21, 2010 11:20 pm
On Mon, 21 Jun 2010 15:22:25 +0000 (UTC), Cydrome Leader
<presence_at_MUNGEpanix.com> wrote:
Quote:
In sci.electronics.misc Benj <bjacoby_at_iwaynet.net> wrote:
On Jun 17, 10:37?pm, RichD <r_delaney2...@yahoo.com> wrote:
Battery technology is an active area of research, but an
obvious question occurs to me: why is it, no one has determined
the maximum possible energy/volume, and energy/weight?
And from there, discover the chemistry which achieves it?
Is there some lacuna in our understanding of solid state physics
which necessitates an empirical, rather than theoretical approach?
Finding the max possible just shows you where you stand in the scheme
of what is possible. That is not our problem. The problem is to be
useful batteries must be useful. That means they must have a
reasonably long life (unlike the so commonly used non-liquid ni-cad
pieces of crap), they need to store as much energy as possible without
a lot of weight (hence the differences between lead and lithium), and
you don't want them to discharge by themselves as they sit around
(Nickel Metal Hydride), Hence the real problem as Uncle Al notes is
practicality.
Batteries are on the margin of useful presently but Lead-acid are
heavy. Ni-cads tend to die in a hurry especially if charged a lot. Ni-
MH tend to discharge just sitting, and Li-ion while very nice in a lot
of ways, tend to slowly sink into the sunset within about 5 years. And
this doesn't even get into what it costs to build these batteries.
Just doubling the life of Li-Ion batteries would go a long way toward
making an electric car decent. What good would "theoretical maximum"
storage do if the thing isn't practical?
You sound like you know batteries.
Do you know if any companies still make large prismatic NiHM cells, in
similar form factors to the flooded aircraft started NiCd batteries?
---
http://www.google.com/#hl=en&source=hp&q=large+prismatic+nimh+cells&aq=0&aqi=m1&aql=&oq=large+prismatic+NiHM+cells&gs_rfai=CEAOJYeUfTPLTAofAzQTJ9aHfDQAAAKoEBU_QshOL&fp=bff9aea6fcd663ae
Cydrome Leader
Guest
Tue Jun 22, 2010 4:33 am
In sci.electronics.misc John Fields <jfields_at_austininstruments.com> wrote:
Quote:
On Mon, 21 Jun 2010 15:22:25 +0000 (UTC), Cydrome Leader
presence_at_MUNGEpanix.com> wrote:
In sci.electronics.misc Benj <bjacoby_at_iwaynet.net> wrote:
On Jun 17, 10:37?pm, RichD <r_delaney2...@yahoo.com> wrote:
Battery technology is an active area of research, but an
obvious question occurs to me: why is it, no one has determined
the maximum possible energy/volume, and energy/weight?
And from there, discover the chemistry which achieves it?
Is there some lacuna in our understanding of solid state physics
which necessitates an empirical, rather than theoretical approach?
Finding the max possible just shows you where you stand in the scheme
of what is possible. That is not our problem. The problem is to be
useful batteries must be useful. That means they must have a
reasonably long life (unlike the so commonly used non-liquid ni-cad
pieces of crap), they need to store as much energy as possible without
a lot of weight (hence the differences between lead and lithium), and
you don't want them to discharge by themselves as they sit around
(Nickel Metal Hydride), Hence the real problem as Uncle Al notes is
practicality.
Batteries are on the margin of useful presently but Lead-acid are
heavy. Ni-cads tend to die in a hurry especially if charged a lot. Ni-
MH tend to discharge just sitting, and Li-ion while very nice in a lot
of ways, tend to slowly sink into the sunset within about 5 years. And
this doesn't even get into what it costs to build these batteries.
Just doubling the life of Li-Ion batteries would go a long way toward
making an electric car decent. What good would "theoretical maximum"
storage do if the thing isn't practical?
You sound like you know batteries.
Do you know if any companies still make large prismatic NiHM cells, in
similar form factors to the flooded aircraft started NiCd batteries?
---
http://www.google.com/#hl=en&source=hp&q=large+prismatic+nimh+cells&aq=0&aqi=m1&aql=&oq=large+prismatic+NiHM+cells&gs_rfai=CEAOJYeUfTPLTAofAzQTJ9aHfDQAAAKoEBU_QshOL&fp=bff9aea6fcd663ae
nothing relevent there.
John Fields
Guest
Tue Jun 22, 2010 6:30 pm
On Tue, 22 Jun 2010 01:33:12 +0000 (UTC), Cydrome Leader
<presence_at_MUNGEpanix.com> wrote:
Quote:
In sci.electronics.misc John Fields <jfields_at_austininstruments.com> wrote:
On Mon, 21 Jun 2010 15:22:25 +0000 (UTC), Cydrome Leader
presence_at_MUNGEpanix.com> wrote:
In sci.electronics.misc Benj <bjacoby_at_iwaynet.net> wrote:
On Jun 17, 10:37?pm, RichD <r_delaney2...@yahoo.com> wrote:
Battery technology is an active area of research, but an
obvious question occurs to me: why is it, no one has determined
the maximum possible energy/volume, and energy/weight?
And from there, discover the chemistry which achieves it?
Is there some lacuna in our understanding of solid state physics
which necessitates an empirical, rather than theoretical approach?
Finding the max possible just shows you where you stand in the scheme
of what is possible. That is not our problem. The problem is to be
useful batteries must be useful. That means they must have a
reasonably long life (unlike the so commonly used non-liquid ni-cad
pieces of crap), they need to store as much energy as possible without
a lot of weight (hence the differences between lead and lithium), and
you don't want them to discharge by themselves as they sit around
(Nickel Metal Hydride), Hence the real problem as Uncle Al notes is
practicality.
Batteries are on the margin of useful presently but Lead-acid are
heavy. Ni-cads tend to die in a hurry especially if charged a lot. Ni-
MH tend to discharge just sitting, and Li-ion while very nice in a lot
of ways, tend to slowly sink into the sunset within about 5 years. And
this doesn't even get into what it costs to build these batteries.
Just doubling the life of Li-Ion batteries would go a long way toward
making an electric car decent. What good would "theoretical maximum"
storage do if the thing isn't practical?
You sound like you know batteries.
Do you know if any companies still make large prismatic NiHM cells, in
similar form factors to the flooded aircraft started NiCd batteries?
---
http://www.google.com/#hl=en&source=hp&q=large+prismatic+nimh+cells&aq=0&aqi=m1&aql=&oq=large+prismatic+NiHM+cells&gs_rfai=CEAOJYeUfTPLTAofAzQTJ9aHfDQAAAKoEBU_QshOL&fp=bff9aea6fcd663ae
nothing relevent there.
---
Checked all 120000 results, did you?
BTW, what do you mean by "flooded aicraft started NiCd batteries"?
Cydrome Leader
Guest
Wed Jun 23, 2010 12:57 am
In sci.electronics.misc John Fields <jfields_at_austininstruments.com> wrote:
Quote:
On Tue, 22 Jun 2010 01:33:12 +0000 (UTC), Cydrome Leader
presence_at_MUNGEpanix.com> wrote:
In sci.electronics.misc John Fields <jfields_at_austininstruments.com> wrote:
On Mon, 21 Jun 2010 15:22:25 +0000 (UTC), Cydrome Leader
presence_at_MUNGEpanix.com> wrote:
In sci.electronics.misc Benj <bjacoby_at_iwaynet.net> wrote:
On Jun 17, 10:37?pm, RichD <r_delaney2...@yahoo.com> wrote:
Battery technology is an active area of research, but an
obvious question occurs to me: why is it, no one has determined
the maximum possible energy/volume, and energy/weight?
And from there, discover the chemistry which achieves it?
Is there some lacuna in our understanding of solid state physics
which necessitates an empirical, rather than theoretical approach?
Finding the max possible just shows you where you stand in the scheme
of what is possible. That is not our problem. The problem is to be
useful batteries must be useful. That means they must have a
reasonably long life (unlike the so commonly used non-liquid ni-cad
pieces of crap), they need to store as much energy as possible without
a lot of weight (hence the differences between lead and lithium), and
you don't want them to discharge by themselves as they sit around
(Nickel Metal Hydride), Hence the real problem as Uncle Al notes is
practicality.
Batteries are on the margin of useful presently but Lead-acid are
heavy. Ni-cads tend to die in a hurry especially if charged a lot. Ni-
MH tend to discharge just sitting, and Li-ion while very nice in a lot
of ways, tend to slowly sink into the sunset within about 5 years. And
this doesn't even get into what it costs to build these batteries.
Just doubling the life of Li-Ion batteries would go a long way toward
making an electric car decent. What good would "theoretical maximum"
storage do if the thing isn't practical?
You sound like you know batteries.
Do you know if any companies still make large prismatic NiHM cells, in
similar form factors to the flooded aircraft started NiCd batteries?
---
http://www.google.com/#hl=en&source=hp&q=large+prismatic+nimh+cells&aq=0&aqi=m1&aql=&oq=large+prismatic+NiHM+cells&gs_rfai=CEAOJYeUfTPLTAofAzQTJ9aHfDQAAAKoEBU_QshOL&fp=bff9aea6fcd663ae
nothing relevent there.
---
Checked all 120000 results, did you?
BTW, what do you mean by "flooded aicraft started NiCd batteries"?
here go over every result and tell me what you find
http://www.google.com/#hl=en&q=aircraft+starting+battery+%2BNiCd+%2Bflooded&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=&fp=d2eda4910a7445ea
John Fields
Guest
Wed Jun 23, 2010 1:12 pm
On Tue, 22 Jun 2010 21:57:27 +0000 (UTC), Cydrome Leader
<presence_at_MUNGEpanix.com> wrote:
Quote:
---
Aww... poor baby doesn't want to do her own legwork?
If you're serious in your quest, I suggest you go to:
http://www.concordebattery.com/dealers.php
and peruse the various dealers' web sites for what you want.
Johm Fields
John Fields
Guest
Wed Jun 23, 2010 6:20 pm
On Wed, 23 Jun 2010 15:56:11 +0000 (UTC), Cydrome Leader
<presence_at_MUNGEpanix.com> wrote:
Quote:
---
Well, darn.
I guess you looked through that entire dealer list and couldn't find
even one that carries NiMH batteries?
I would've looked for you, but it's not really my project, is it?
Anyway I guess you missed the part on their home page where there's a
link to NiCd batteries that they supply lead-acid replacements for.
Had you followed that link you most like likely would have found that
there's a company, SAFT, who make giant NiMH batteries, maybe even in
the form factor you're looking for.
They're at:
http://www.saftbatteries.com/
A link to their NiMH line is at:
http://www.saftbatteries.com/Produit_NHP_329_51/Language/en-US/Default.aspx
and if they don't have exactly what you want, I'd bet they know who
does, and a call or an email might get you that info.
If none of that works, go to:
http://www.thomasnet.com/?cov=NA&heading=0000000&pslpid=0000000&WT.mc_t=PPC&WT.mc_n=mcgoog&WT.sem_engine=mcgoog&WT.sem_keyword=thomas+register&WT.srch=1&WT.z_sem_account=1&mctoken=v4v43576Z3a383409656900071272Z3a758Z3a2Z3aZ3aZ3a1662Z3a3f9250d3214e2f9Z3a
and type: "Nickel-Metal Hydride aircraft batteries" into the search
box. That'll take you to:
http://www.thomasnet.com/prodsearch.html?cov=NA&which=prod&what=Nickel-Metal+Hydride+aircraft+batteries
Where, if it's made in the US, you ought to be able to find who makes
it.
Anything else?
Cydrome Leader
Guest
Wed Jun 23, 2010 6:56 pm
In sci.electronics.misc John Fields <jfields_at_austininstruments.com> wrote:
Quote:
that's a really clever idea, Johm.
I'll call up a company that only make lead acid batteries to buy giant
NiMh cells.
hanson
Guest
Wed Jun 23, 2010 9:43 pm
in
<http://groups.google.com/group/sci.physics/msg/e98bf317f804eeec>
Quote:
Rich Delany wrote:
[1] Battery technology is an active area of research, but an
obvious question occurs to me: why is it, no one has determined
[2] the maximum possible energy/volume, and energy/weight?
[3] And from there, discover the chemistry which achieves it?
[4] Is there some lacuna in our understanding of solid state physics
[5] which necessitates an empirical, rather than theoretical approach>
Quote:
hanson wrote:
[1] yes --[2] E/vol = pressure limiat's given by the matl's scaling laws.
[3] Electrochemistry is a mature science - [4] yes , always & ever.
[5] Empirical/experimental work ALWAYS trumps theory.
Quote:
As you said, this research field is enormously active.
The chem <-> electric endeavors run from Fuel cells on the
one side to Capacitors at the other. One of the most intriguing
one is the Monolayer battery, so to speak a hybrid been a
capacitor and an electrolyte free battery. In priciple like this:
M1-E----M2: charge M1----E-M2: discharge M1-E----M2,
where M1,2 are monolayers of different Metals and E is the
mobile charge carrier like O, S, or Se. The principle is to use
the electrons' different proximity or position at M1E vs M2E
The potential of its fantastic energy/volume is enormous, but
so are the problems to be overcome in this Nano technology
field. IOW what's attempted here, in a way, is to use a variation
of semiconductor technology as energy storage gizmos.
Quote:
hanson
---
news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: news_at_netfront.net ---
Cydrome Leader
Guest
Thu Jun 24, 2010 1:24 am
In sci.electronics.misc John Fields <jfields_at_austininstruments.com> wrote:
Quote:
On Wed, 23 Jun 2010 15:56:11 +0000 (UTC), Cydrome Leader
presence_at_MUNGEpanix.com> wrote:
In sci.electronics.misc John Fields <jfields_at_austininstruments.com> wrote:
On Tue, 22 Jun 2010 21:57:27 +0000 (UTC), Cydrome Leader
presence_at_MUNGEpanix.com> wrote:
In sci.electronics.misc John Fields <jfields_at_austininstruments.com> wrote:
On Tue, 22 Jun 2010 01:33:12 +0000 (UTC), Cydrome Leader
presence_at_MUNGEpanix.com> wrote:
Do you know if any companies still make large prismatic NiHM cells, in
similar form factors to the flooded aircraft started NiCd batteries?
---
http://www.google.com/#hl=en&source=hp&q=large+prismatic+nimh+cells&aq=0&aqi=m1&aql=&oq=large+prismatic+NiHM+cells&gs_rfai=CEAOJYeUfTPLTAofAzQTJ9aHfDQAAAKoEBU_QshOL&fp=bff9aea6fcd663ae
nothing relevent there.
---
Checked all 120000 results, did you?
BTW, what do you mean by "flooded aicraft started NiCd batteries"?
here go over every result and tell me what you find
http://www.google.com/#hl=en&q=aircraft+starting+battery+%2BNiCd+%2Bflooded&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=&fp=d2eda4910a7445ea
---
Aww... poor baby doesn't want to do her own legwork?
If you're serious in your quest, I suggest you go to:
http://www.concordebattery.com/dealers.php
and peruse the various dealers' web sites for what you want.
Johm Fields
that's a really clever idea, Johm.
I'll call up a company that only make lead acid batteries to buy giant
NiMh cells.
---
Well, darn.
I guess you looked through that entire dealer list and couldn't find
even one that carries NiMH batteries?
I would've looked for you, but it's not really my project, is it?
Anyway I guess you missed the part on their home page where there's a
link to NiCd batteries that they supply lead-acid replacements for.
Had you followed that link you most like likely would have found that
there's a company, SAFT, who make giant NiMH batteries, maybe even in
the form factor you're looking for.
They're at:
http://www.saftbatteries.com/
A link to their NiMH line is at:
http://www.saftbatteries.com/Produit_NHP_329_51/Language/en-US/Default.aspx
here we go. this is sort of what I'm asking about.
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