EDAboard.com | EDAboard.de | EDAboard.co.uk | WTWH Media

Tesla Batteries

Ask a question - edaboard.com

elektroda.net NewsGroups Forum Index - Electronics Design - Tesla Batteries

Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10  Next


Guest

Fri Jan 11, 2019 5:45 am   



On Friday, 11 January 2019 00:31:28 UTC, gnuarm.del...@gmail.com wrote:
Quote:
On Thursday, January 10, 2019 at 3:44:50 AM UTC-5, tabby wrote:
On Wednesday, 9 January 2019 20:07:56 UTC, gnuarm.del...@gmail.com wrote:
On Wednesday, January 9, 2019 at 4:31:43 AM UTC-5, Martin Brown wrote:

UK MOD made a horrendous mess by applying an old power top up SOP to
newly introduced NiCads back in the 1980's destroying a great many big
expensive wet cell batteries in the process. Being cycled between 80%
charge and full many times left them unable to provide full capacity.
NiFe by comparison would put up with almost any amount of abuse.

Don't know what MOD or SOP are. Since when are NiCads wet cells?

ministry of defence. standard operating practice. 1899.

So care to explain your statements in English?


'Your statements' is a lot too vague for me.
And having read your comments in other replies, it seems that once again it is pointless pointing anything out for you. You & Bill are a right pair.


NT


Guest

Fri Jan 11, 2019 5:45 am   



On Thu, 10 Jan 2019 09:29:11 +0000, Martin Brown
<'''newspam'''@nezumi.demon.co.uk> wrote:

Quote:
On 09/01/2019 19:53, gnuarm.deletethisbit_at_gmail.com wrote:
On Wednesday, January 9, 2019 at 4:08:09 AM UTC-5, Martin Brown
wrote:
On 09/01/2019 07:45, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Tue, 8 Jan 2019 08:50:22 +0000, Martin Brown
'''newspam'''@nezumi.demon.co.uk> wrote:

On 08/01/2019 06:32, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Mon, 7 Jan 2019 12:28:49 -0800 (PST), jurb6006_at_gmail.com
wrote:

Going off the grid (not me not now but...) we are looking
at Tesla batteries for energy storage.

Forget that idea. Assuming you mean the Tesla PowerWall 1,
2, or 3, these were not designed to power anything. They
were designed to reduce your peak power usage (time of use
load shifting) thus saving you money on your electric utility
bill.

You have me interested now. I thought in the USA peak power
load was typically in mid afternoon when aircon was at full
stretch and by implication solar panels also at peak output.

http://www.caiso.com/TodaysOutlook/Pages/default.aspx> Note that
solar and wind system, as well as off-grid systems, that provide
their own power, don't appear on the graph. Only those system
that draw power from the grid appear. As such, we have peaks at
about 7 AM and 5:30 PM. The trough at noon is when solar power
is at maximum, which reduces the maximum demand.

Interesting quite how different UK and USA demand profiles are at
this time of year. UK comes up to a level plateau at 0800 until
1600 for the working day and then peaks in the early evening around
1800 as people return home to start cooking and using heating and
lighting.

https://gridwatch.templar.co.uk/

In the US we have a morning peak and a late afternoon peak. Both
peaks are due to the overlap of business and residential usage. In
the summer months the morning peak becomes insignificant to the
afternoon peak because of the AC. Of course this varies somewhat
with region. It is a large and varied country.

I take this to imply that cooked breakfasts are more common in the USA then.


Perhaps hot water? Electric heat in homes and businesses ramping up
from their nightly setback?


Guest

Fri Jan 11, 2019 5:45 am   



On Thursday, January 10, 2019 at 11:04:23 PM UTC-5, tabb...@gmail.com wrote:
Quote:
On Friday, 11 January 2019 00:31:28 UTC, gnuarm.del...@gmail.com wrote:
On Thursday, January 10, 2019 at 3:44:50 AM UTC-5, tabby wrote:
On Wednesday, 9 January 2019 20:07:56 UTC, gnuarm.del...@gmail.com wrote:
On Wednesday, January 9, 2019 at 4:31:43 AM UTC-5, Martin Brown wrote:

UK MOD made a horrendous mess by applying an old power top up SOP to
newly introduced NiCads back in the 1980's destroying a great many big
expensive wet cell batteries in the process. Being cycled between 80%
charge and full many times left them unable to provide full capacity.
NiFe by comparison would put up with almost any amount of abuse.

Don't know what MOD or SOP are. Since when are NiCads wet cells?

ministry of defence. standard operating practice. 1899.

So care to explain your statements in English?

'Your statements' is a lot too vague for me.
And having read your comments in other replies, it seems that once again it is pointless pointing anything out for you. You & Bill are a right pair.


If you can't be bothered to speak in a clear manner, then obviously what you have to say can't be very important.

Rick C.

-++ Get 6 months of free supercharging
-++ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209


Guest

Fri Jan 11, 2019 6:45 am   



On Friday, 11 January 2019 04:30:21 UTC, gnuarm.del...@gmail.com wrote:
Quote:
On Thursday, January 10, 2019 at 11:04:23 PM UTC-5, tabb wrote:
On Friday, 11 January 2019 00:31:28 UTC, gnuarm.del...@gmail.com wrote:
On Thursday, January 10, 2019 at 3:44:50 AM UTC-5, tabby wrote:
On Wednesday, 9 January 2019 20:07:56 UTC, gnuarm.del...@gmail.com wrote:
On Wednesday, January 9, 2019 at 4:31:43 AM UTC-5, Martin Brown wrote:

UK MOD made a horrendous mess by applying an old power top up SOP to
newly introduced NiCads back in the 1980's destroying a great many big
expensive wet cell batteries in the process. Being cycled between 80%
charge and full many times left them unable to provide full capacity.
NiFe by comparison would put up with almost any amount of abuse.

Don't know what MOD or SOP are. Since when are NiCads wet cells?

ministry of defence. standard operating practice. 1899.

So care to explain your statements in English?

'Your statements' is a lot too vague for me.
And having read your comments in other replies, it seems that once again it is pointless pointing anything out for you. You & Bill are a right pair.

If you can't be bothered to speak in a clear manner, then obviously what you have to say can't be very important.

Rick C.


lol


NT

bitrex
Guest

Fri Jan 11, 2019 6:45 am   



On 01/08/2019 01:32 PM, Winfield Hill wrote:
Quote:
bitrex wrote...

e.g. this is the size of the array required to supply the energy needs
of a small organic farm near me (Boston area); a modest single-family
two-story farmhouse, large barn, and a couple other associated
out-buildings on about 20 hectares of farmland/fields.

https://imgur.com/a/ZDjSB9T

five 25 square meter panels mounted on sun-tracking mounts, a 5-10kW
array, maybe.

That sounds more like a 15 to 20kW system, or about 2x larger
than mine. My roof annually generates enough power for my
power-hungry house (including electric hot water and 5kW heat
pump to heat house above 40-deg F). Maybe a system 2x larger
could handle a small farm.

BUT, given cloudy dark days and winter, I absolutely depend on
banking my extra summer power into the grid, with net-metering.
I use average 30kWh. If off-grid, I'd want at least 10 days of
backup, or a 300kWh storage system. Smaller ones need not apply.



OP could get a Tesla and an array like yours and use the array to charge
the Tesla. Then run an inverter off the Tesla to power the home when not
driving it.

Then you get both an off-grid power solution AND transportation, hey hey!


Guest

Fri Jan 11, 2019 8:45 am   



On Thursday, January 10, 2019 at 11:46:21 PM UTC-5, bitrex wrote:
Quote:
On 01/08/2019 01:32 PM, Winfield Hill wrote:
bitrex wrote...

e.g. this is the size of the array required to supply the energy needs
of a small organic farm near me (Boston area); a modest single-family
two-story farmhouse, large barn, and a couple other associated
out-buildings on about 20 hectares of farmland/fields.

https://imgur.com/a/ZDjSB9T

five 25 square meter panels mounted on sun-tracking mounts, a 5-10kW
array, maybe.

That sounds more like a 15 to 20kW system, or about 2x larger
than mine. My roof annually generates enough power for my
power-hungry house (including electric hot water and 5kW heat
pump to heat house above 40-deg F). Maybe a system 2x larger
could handle a small farm.

BUT, given cloudy dark days and winter, I absolutely depend on
banking my extra summer power into the grid, with net-metering.
I use average 30kWh. If off-grid, I'd want at least 10 days of
backup, or a 300kWh storage system. Smaller ones need not apply.



OP could get a Tesla and an array like yours and use the array to charge
the Tesla. Then run an inverter off the Tesla to power the home when not
driving it.

Then you get both an off-grid power solution AND transportation, hey hey!


Where do you get any power from the Tesla other than the 12 volt lighter sockets? Oh, yeah, they also have some USB sockets.

Rick C.

+-- Get 6 months of free supercharging
+-- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

Martin Brown
Guest

Fri Jan 11, 2019 11:45 am   



On 11/01/2019 01:11, gnuarm.deletethisbit_at_gmail.com wrote:
Quote:
On Thursday, January 10, 2019 at 4:29:23 AM UTC-5, Martin Brown
wrote:
On 09/01/2019 19:53, gnuarm.deletethisbit_at_gmail.com wrote:
On Wednesday, January 9, 2019 at 4:08:09 AM UTC-5, Martin Brown
wrote:
On 09/01/2019 07:45, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Tue, 8 Jan 2019 08:50:22 +0000, Martin Brown
'''newspam'''@nezumi.demon.co.uk> wrote:

On 08/01/2019 06:32, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Mon, 7 Jan 2019 12:28:49 -0800 (PST),
jurb6006_at_gmail.com wrote:

Going off the grid (not me not now but...) we are
looking at Tesla batteries for energy storage.

Forget that idea. Assuming you mean the Tesla PowerWall
1, 2, or 3, these were not designed to power anything.
They were designed to reduce your peak power usage (time
of use load shifting) thus saving you money on your
electric utility bill.

You have me interested now. I thought in the USA peak
power load was typically in mid afternoon when aircon was
at full stretch and by implication solar panels also at
peak output.

http://www.caiso.com/TodaysOutlook/Pages/default.aspx> Note
that solar and wind system, as well as off-grid systems, that
provide their own power, don't appear on the graph. Only
those system that draw power from the grid appear. As such,
we have peaks at about 7 AM and 5:30 PM. The trough at noon
is when solar power is at maximum, which reduces the maximum
demand.

Interesting quite how different UK and USA demand profiles are
at this time of year. UK comes up to a level plateau at 0800
until 1600 for the working day and then peaks in the early
evening around 1800 as people return home to start cooking and
using heating and lighting.

https://gridwatch.templar.co.uk/

In the US we have a morning peak and a late afternoon peak.
Both peaks are due to the overlap of business and residential
usage. In the summer months the morning peak becomes
insignificant to the afternoon peak because of the AC. Of course
this varies somewhat with region. It is a large and varied
country.

I take this to imply that cooked breakfasts are more common in the
USA then.

Or maybe we take more baths/showers? In any event, we use more power
at home in the morning which has overlap with business.


Evidently.

Quote:
It is actually very mild for winter at the moment around 8-10C
so that there is comparatively little heating demand. It spikes
more when there is a cold snap to -10C (possibly by enough to
bring the grid down). Successive governments have prevaricated
for so long over new build nuclear that things are very
borderline now for peak load vs capacity. They had to pay some
heavy industrial users to drop off grid last winter (people
like the electrolytic metals refiners - ultimate sink load).

You mean during peak times, right? It would make no sense to
have them shut down. Just let them work other than at peak.
Most factories like that work multiple shifts anyway.

No I mean that last year they had to pay heavy industrial users to
drop off the grid because gas availability and electricity
generating capacity were maxed out during "the beast from the East"
weather - an extended cold snap (which may happen again this
year).

https://www.ft.com/content/30fa54b2-5e16-11e4-bc04-00144feabdc0

It has got worse since that 2014 article.

So winter time usage? Still, wouldn't that peak at night? Peak


No look at the graphs. It peaks mid day.

Quote:
energy consumption is a time of day issue. Or are you saying the
problem was not the generating capacity, but that there was not
enough fuel supply to keep the generators running????


Some of each. They don't have any reserve capacity and fuel for the kit
they have as supply of last resort was running low. In addition it was
cold over most of Europe so they couldn't borrow power from neighbours
using the interconnects to mainland Europe.

Quote:
Perhaps you are not digging far enough into the issue to understand
that the peak generation limitation generally only impacts certain
times of the day. Isn't that clear? It would make no sense to ask
heavy industry to shut down at other times.


The sort of industries they had to shut down run 24/7 and have to put
into a safe dormant state. A few heavy industries can switch on or off
at a moments notice and are used to balance the grid - salt electrolysis
at Runcorn for example.

Quote:
Surely the purpose of a Tesla power wall *is* to store any
excess solar power to use later in the evening when the sun
has gone down (rather than dumping it into the hot water
immersion heater - as is common in the UK).

That's exactly what it's for. You charge up your PowerWall
late at night, when electricity is cheap, and discharge it
during the early morning and evening, when electricity is
more expensive. No solar involved as everything is powered by
the grid.

In the UK such battery packs are being sold in combination
with solar arrays. Although we do have some cheap overnight
electricity tariffs they have largely fallen out of favour -
daytime is a rip-off. They are mostly a hangover of the
"nuclear electricity to cheap to meter" era.

Not sure what that means. What does nuclear have to do with
peak rates?

Nuclear needs a higher base load. In the 1960's when nuclear was
all the rage building the power plants it was said by the British
government spokesman that we would have "electricity too cheap to
meter".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Too_cheap_to_meter

(a phrase apparently coined by Lewis Strauss of USAEC)

Economy 7 was a tariff intended to encourage people to use
electric storage heaters overnight on cheap electricity. They were
utter crap.

I don't know what an electric storage heater is. You mean they would
make heat from electricity and store it in hot water or something
similar? We've talked about that here and it takes a lot of water to
store much heat. Phase change stores a lot more heat over a narrower
temperature range.


Typically they were a bunch of firebricks with a resistive heating
elements inside them. It worked OK in buildings that had been designed
with electric storage heating from the outset. It was rubbish everywhere
else - big ugly bulky metal boxes that got mad hot overnight and were
stone cold by the time you really needed them in the early evening.
Quote:

I guess the above is a British thing that never made it over hear. I
still don't get what any of this has to do with "daytime is a ripoff"
or what you are trying to say about it.


To get the so called Economy 7 tariff cheaper at night you pay more for
daytime usage.

Quote:
A quirk of the feed-in-tariff is that you get paid a
premium rate for half of what you generate no matter what
you do with it (insane).

That's a different animal. That's using solar or wind power
to generate electricity, which is then sent to the grid for
"storage" or to be consumed by someone else. In theory,
you're saving the local utility the cost of gas and oil
needed to generate that electricity. Of course that assumes
that there's someone available to consume the electricity you
generate, or that the utility or grid have a way of storing
it. It's conceivable that on a really sunny day, residential
solar power could generate more power than users could
consume.

But if you are not at home during the day to use it then
storing it in a battery means you get paid for (not)
"delivering it to the grid" and then get to use it later when
you come home. This is part of the reason why solar hot water
is a non-starter in the UK. The feed in tariff makes it more
cost effective to generate PV electricity and dump it into your
hot water tank immersion heater since you get paid to do that!

I don't understand what you mean by "paid for not delivering it
to the grid"???

You get paid for exactly half of what your PV array produces
*irrespective* of what you actually do with it. Most people turn it
into copious hot water but if you are cunning you can store it in a
battery and use it later in the evening. Hence battery with PV
combo sales are more popular in the UK to avoid using grid
electricity.

I think in the US they may well measure the amount of energy you
deliver to the grid and "bank" it or something.

If by "bank" you mean getting paid, then yes. Some states may limit
your benefit to simply reducing your bill rather than getting cash,
so that I suppose would be like "banking" it. Many places let you
get cash, but only for the generation and transmission portion of the
bill.


But do you get paid for the *energy* you actually export to the grid or
a fraction of the energy that you generate (UK it is the latter).

Quote:
I haven't looked up the spec, but it would be a pretty crappy
battery if it couldn't deliver 3 kW. That's about 30 amps at 120
VAC or 15 amps at 240 VAC.

Regular discharge at C/4 is quite stressful for a battery. 3kW is
a typical peak load in the UK for kettles and electric fan
heaters.

Not sure why you say that. Tesla car batteries are regularly charged
at a full C if not a bit higher. They are tapered off to a lower
rate over 50% charged. The max discharge rate is over 400 kW from my
100 kWh battery. Something like 515 HP, but of course that is
sporadic, not remotely sustained.


The question really is what is a sustainable discharge rate for one of
these things that will not lead to long term damage.

Do the batteries not get rather warm at a >1C charge rate?

Quote:
I thought a standard outlet was 9 amps at 240 volts, that's more like
a bit over 2 kW. Is it more like 13 amps? Here it is 1.44 kW, 12
amps at 120 volts (the current for continuous loads is derated to
80%).


UK domestic sockets are rated for 13A full 3kW load.

Modern recommendations are that portable loads should not exceed 2.4kW
as plugs tend to get warm on 3kW and some nasty Chinese made extension
blocks will melt if you try to draw that much from a single socket.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

Martin Brown
Guest

Fri Jan 11, 2019 12:45 pm   



On 11/01/2019 00:31, gnuarm.deletethisbit_at_gmail.com wrote:
Quote:
On Thursday, January 10, 2019 at 3:44:50 AM UTC-5, tabb...@gmail.com wrote:
On Wednesday, 9 January 2019 20:07:56 UTC, gnuarm.del...@gmail.com wrote:
On Wednesday, January 9, 2019 at 4:31:43 AM UTC-5, Martin Brown wrote:

UK MOD made a horrendous mess by applying an old power top up SOP to
newly introduced NiCads back in the 1980's destroying a great many big
expensive wet cell batteries in the process. Being cycled between 80%
charge and full many times left them unable to provide full capacity.
NiFe by comparison would put up with almost any amount of abuse.

Don't know what MOD or SOP are. Since when are NiCads wet cells?

ministry of defence. standard operating practice. 1899.

So care to explain your statements in English?


Are you really so thick?

MOD = Ministry Of Defence
SOP = Standard Operating Procedure
1899 = when wet cell NiCad were invented

NiFe and NiCad KOH wet cells (and silver zinc in missiles) were on the
government surplus market in the 1950's and 60's. Wet cells are still in
use for fork lift trucks, aviation and emergency power systems.

https://www.batterysolutions.com/recycling-information/battery-types/wet-nickel-cadmium-nicd/

https://www.aviationpros.com/article/10387569/nickel-cadmium-batteries-basic-theory-and-maintenance-procedures?page=2

NiCad were the least tolerant of abuse by far. NiFe would take an
amazing amount of abuse and still bounce back - capacity was less.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

Martin Brown
Guest

Fri Jan 11, 2019 1:45 pm   



On 11/01/2019 03:51, krw_at_notreal.com wrote:
Quote:
On Thu, 10 Jan 2019 09:29:11 +0000, Martin Brown
'''newspam'''@nezumi.demon.co.uk> wrote:

On 09/01/2019 19:53, gnuarm.deletethisbit_at_gmail.com wrote:
On Wednesday, January 9, 2019 at 4:08:09 AM UTC-5, Martin Brown
wrote:
On 09/01/2019 07:45, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Tue, 8 Jan 2019 08:50:22 +0000, Martin Brown
'''newspam'''@nezumi.demon.co.uk> wrote:

On 08/01/2019 06:32, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Mon, 7 Jan 2019 12:28:49 -0800 (PST), jurb6006_at_gmail.com
wrote:

Going off the grid (not me not now but...) we are looking
at Tesla batteries for energy storage.

Forget that idea. Assuming you mean the Tesla PowerWall 1,
2, or 3, these were not designed to power anything. They
were designed to reduce your peak power usage (time of use
load shifting) thus saving you money on your electric utility
bill.

You have me interested now. I thought in the USA peak power
load was typically in mid afternoon when aircon was at full
stretch and by implication solar panels also at peak output.

http://www.caiso.com/TodaysOutlook/Pages/default.aspx> Note that
solar and wind system, as well as off-grid systems, that provide
their own power, don't appear on the graph. Only those system
that draw power from the grid appear. As such, we have peaks at
about 7 AM and 5:30 PM. The trough at noon is when solar power
is at maximum, which reduces the maximum demand.

Interesting quite how different UK and USA demand profiles are at
this time of year. UK comes up to a level plateau at 0800 until
1600 for the working day and then peaks in the early evening around
1800 as people return home to start cooking and using heating and
lighting.

https://gridwatch.templar.co.uk/

In the US we have a morning peak and a late afternoon peak. Both
peaks are due to the overlap of business and residential usage. In
the summer months the morning peak becomes insignificant to the
afternoon peak because of the AC. Of course this varies somewhat
with region. It is a large and varied country.

I take this to imply that cooked breakfasts are more common in the USA then.

Perhaps hot water? Electric heat in homes and businesses ramping up
from their nightly setback?


Is electricity widely used in the USA for heating? UK most space heating
is mains gas or oil fired where mains gas is not available. Both are
considerably cheaper than using electricity for space or water heating.

Apart from demand led flash electric showers I can't see that there
should be a big hot water hit. Most hot water tanks are well insulated.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown


Guest

Fri Jan 11, 2019 4:45 pm   



On Friday, January 11, 2019 at 7:05:56 AM UTC-5, Martin Brown wrote:
Quote:
On 11/01/2019 03:51, krw_at_notreal.com wrote:
On Thu, 10 Jan 2019 09:29:11 +0000, Martin Brown
'''newspam'''@nezumi.demon.co.uk> wrote:

On 09/01/2019 19:53, gnuarm.deletethisbit_at_gmail.com wrote:
On Wednesday, January 9, 2019 at 4:08:09 AM UTC-5, Martin Brown
wrote:
On 09/01/2019 07:45, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Tue, 8 Jan 2019 08:50:22 +0000, Martin Brown
'''newspam'''@nezumi.demon.co.uk> wrote:

On 08/01/2019 06:32, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Mon, 7 Jan 2019 12:28:49 -0800 (PST), jurb6006_at_gmail.com
wrote:

Going off the grid (not me not now but...) we are looking
at Tesla batteries for energy storage.

Forget that idea. Assuming you mean the Tesla PowerWall 1,
2, or 3, these were not designed to power anything. They
were designed to reduce your peak power usage (time of use
load shifting) thus saving you money on your electric utility
bill.

You have me interested now. I thought in the USA peak power
load was typically in mid afternoon when aircon was at full
stretch and by implication solar panels also at peak output.

http://www.caiso.com/TodaysOutlook/Pages/default.aspx> Note that
solar and wind system, as well as off-grid systems, that provide
their own power, don't appear on the graph. Only those system
that draw power from the grid appear. As such, we have peaks at
about 7 AM and 5:30 PM. The trough at noon is when solar power
is at maximum, which reduces the maximum demand.

Interesting quite how different UK and USA demand profiles are at
this time of year. UK comes up to a level plateau at 0800 until
1600 for the working day and then peaks in the early evening around
1800 as people return home to start cooking and using heating and
lighting.

https://gridwatch.templar.co.uk/

In the US we have a morning peak and a late afternoon peak. Both
peaks are due to the overlap of business and residential usage. In
the summer months the morning peak becomes insignificant to the
afternoon peak because of the AC. Of course this varies somewhat
with region. It is a large and varied country.

I take this to imply that cooked breakfasts are more common in the USA then.

Perhaps hot water? Electric heat in homes and businesses ramping up
from their nightly setback?

Is electricity widely used in the USA for heating? UK most space heating
is mains gas or oil fired where mains gas is not available. Both are
considerably cheaper than using electricity for space or water heating.

Apart from demand led flash electric showers I can't see that there
should be a big hot water hit. Most hot water tanks are well insulated.


Gas is not widely used in homes since it is not universally available. Where it is available it is cheaper than electricity... everything pretty much is. Heat pumps are used to good advantage in much of the country. They are not so practical in areas with temperatures much below freezing where backup heat must be used. Most of the US has few days or nights so cold. The most common substitute is fuel oil for heat. Hot water is pretty much always electric unless gas is available.

Rick C.

++- Get 6 months of free supercharging
++- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209


Guest

Fri Jan 11, 2019 4:45 pm   



On Friday, January 11, 2019 at 5:17:46 AM UTC-5, Martin Brown wrote:
Quote:
On 11/01/2019 01:11, gnuarm.deletethisbit_at_gmail.com wrote:
On Thursday, January 10, 2019 at 4:29:23 AM UTC-5, Martin Brown
wrote:
On 09/01/2019 19:53, gnuarm.deletethisbit_at_gmail.com wrote:
On Wednesday, January 9, 2019 at 4:08:09 AM UTC-5, Martin Brown
wrote:
On 09/01/2019 07:45, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Tue, 8 Jan 2019 08:50:22 +0000, Martin Brown
'''newspam'''@nezumi.demon.co.uk> wrote:

On 08/01/2019 06:32, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Mon, 7 Jan 2019 12:28:49 -0800 (PST),
jurb6006_at_gmail.com wrote:

Going off the grid (not me not now but...) we are
looking at Tesla batteries for energy storage.

Forget that idea. Assuming you mean the Tesla PowerWall
1, 2, or 3, these were not designed to power anything.
They were designed to reduce your peak power usage (time
of use load shifting) thus saving you money on your
electric utility bill.

You have me interested now. I thought in the USA peak
power load was typically in mid afternoon when aircon was
at full stretch and by implication solar panels also at
peak output.

http://www.caiso.com/TodaysOutlook/Pages/default.aspx> Note
that solar and wind system, as well as off-grid systems, that
provide their own power, don't appear on the graph. Only
those system that draw power from the grid appear. As such,
we have peaks at about 7 AM and 5:30 PM. The trough at noon
is when solar power is at maximum, which reduces the maximum
demand.

Interesting quite how different UK and USA demand profiles are
at this time of year. UK comes up to a level plateau at 0800
until 1600 for the working day and then peaks in the early
evening around 1800 as people return home to start cooking and
using heating and lighting.

https://gridwatch.templar.co.uk/

In the US we have a morning peak and a late afternoon peak.
Both peaks are due to the overlap of business and residential
usage. In the summer months the morning peak becomes
insignificant to the afternoon peak because of the AC. Of course
this varies somewhat with region. It is a large and varied
country.

I take this to imply that cooked breakfasts are more common in the
USA then.

Or maybe we take more baths/showers? In any event, we use more power
at home in the morning which has overlap with business.

Evidently.

It is actually very mild for winter at the moment around 8-10C
so that there is comparatively little heating demand. It spikes
more when there is a cold snap to -10C (possibly by enough to
bring the grid down). Successive governments have prevaricated
for so long over new build nuclear that things are very
borderline now for peak load vs capacity. They had to pay some
heavy industrial users to drop off grid last winter (people
like the electrolytic metals refiners - ultimate sink load).

You mean during peak times, right? It would make no sense to
have them shut down. Just let them work other than at peak.
Most factories like that work multiple shifts anyway.

No I mean that last year they had to pay heavy industrial users to
drop off the grid because gas availability and electricity
generating capacity were maxed out during "the beast from the East"
weather - an extended cold snap (which may happen again this
year).

https://www.ft.com/content/30fa54b2-5e16-11e4-bc04-00144feabdc0

It has got worse since that 2014 article.

So winter time usage? Still, wouldn't that peak at night? Peak

No look at the graphs. It peaks mid day.


I don't see any time of day graphs, only an annual supply shortfall graph.

There is a paragraph saying, "One measure will see the National Grid give financial incentives to energy intensive companies that agree to cut their electricity use at peak times – between 4pm and 8pm – on winter workdays."

That's about the same as our summer peaks. I guess it's summer all year around in Britain.

So regarding the "heavy industrial users" being paid to drop off the grid, that would only be needed around the peak time, right? No point in shutting down 24 hours when only the peak needs to be mitigated.


Quote:
energy consumption is a time of day issue. Or are you saying the
problem was not the generating capacity, but that there was not
enough fuel supply to keep the generators running????

Some of each. They don't have any reserve capacity and fuel for the kit
they have as supply of last resort was running low. In addition it was
cold over most of Europe so they couldn't borrow power from neighbours
using the interconnects to mainland Europe.


I would be surprised if the weather varied much across Europe. If they can't get power from the neighbors because everyone is seeing the same sort of weather, what would be the purpose of the links?


Quote:
Perhaps you are not digging far enough into the issue to understand
that the peak generation limitation generally only impacts certain
times of the day. Isn't that clear? It would make no sense to ask
heavy industry to shut down at other times.

The sort of industries they had to shut down run 24/7 and have to put
into a safe dormant state. A few heavy industries can switch on or off
at a moments notice and are used to balance the grid - salt electrolysis
at Runcorn for example.


"Moments notice"? They don't really have to shut down 100%. They just need to scale back enough to mitigate the peak. What sort of industries can't do that?


Quote:
Surely the purpose of a Tesla power wall *is* to store any
excess solar power to use later in the evening when the sun
has gone down (rather than dumping it into the hot water
immersion heater - as is common in the UK).

That's exactly what it's for. You charge up your PowerWall
late at night, when electricity is cheap, and discharge it
during the early morning and evening, when electricity is
more expensive. No solar involved as everything is powered by
the grid.

In the UK such battery packs are being sold in combination
with solar arrays. Although we do have some cheap overnight
electricity tariffs they have largely fallen out of favour -
daytime is a rip-off. They are mostly a hangover of the
"nuclear electricity to cheap to meter" era.

Not sure what that means. What does nuclear have to do with
peak rates?

Nuclear needs a higher base load. In the 1960's when nuclear was
all the rage building the power plants it was said by the British
government spokesman that we would have "electricity too cheap to
meter".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Too_cheap_to_meter

(a phrase apparently coined by Lewis Strauss of USAEC)

Economy 7 was a tariff intended to encourage people to use
electric storage heaters overnight on cheap electricity. They were
utter crap.

I don't know what an electric storage heater is. You mean they would
make heat from electricity and store it in hot water or something
similar? We've talked about that here and it takes a lot of water to
store much heat. Phase change stores a lot more heat over a narrower
temperature range.

Typically they were a bunch of firebricks with a resistive heating
elements inside them. It worked OK in buildings that had been designed
with electric storage heating from the outset. It was rubbish everywhere
else - big ugly bulky metal boxes that got mad hot overnight and were
stone cold by the time you really needed them in the early evening.

I guess the above is a British thing that never made it over hear. I
still don't get what any of this has to do with "daytime is a ripoff"
or what you are trying to say about it.

To get the so called Economy 7 tariff cheaper at night you pay more for
daytime usage.


My house is on time of use billing, but the expensive time is peak which varies with season, not "day" vs. "night". The off peak rate is about 1/2 (hard to say exactly because the rates are broken up and only generation is cheaper) and on peak is five times more expensive. So far I'm pretty sure it is paying for me. It's not clear to me if this is better for the utility company.


Quote:
A quirk of the feed-in-tariff is that you get paid a
premium rate for half of what you generate no matter what
you do with it (insane).

That's a different animal. That's using solar or wind power
to generate electricity, which is then sent to the grid for
"storage" or to be consumed by someone else. In theory,
you're saving the local utility the cost of gas and oil
needed to generate that electricity. Of course that assumes
that there's someone available to consume the electricity you
generate, or that the utility or grid have a way of storing
it. It's conceivable that on a really sunny day, residential
solar power could generate more power than users could
consume.

But if you are not at home during the day to use it then
storing it in a battery means you get paid for (not)
"delivering it to the grid" and then get to use it later when
you come home. This is part of the reason why solar hot water
is a non-starter in the UK. The feed in tariff makes it more
cost effective to generate PV electricity and dump it into your
hot water tank immersion heater since you get paid to do that!

I don't understand what you mean by "paid for not delivering it
to the grid"???

You get paid for exactly half of what your PV array produces
*irrespective* of what you actually do with it. Most people turn it
into copious hot water but if you are cunning you can store it in a
battery and use it later in the evening. Hence battery with PV
combo sales are more popular in the UK to avoid using grid
electricity.

I think in the US they may well measure the amount of energy you
deliver to the grid and "bank" it or something.

If by "bank" you mean getting paid, then yes. Some states may limit
your benefit to simply reducing your bill rather than getting cash,
so that I suppose would be like "banking" it. Many places let you
get cash, but only for the generation and transmission portion of the
bill.

But do you get paid for the *energy* you actually export to the grid or
a fraction of the energy that you generate (UK it is the latter).


That's very odd, but I guess it's their way of subsidizing solar. Will the subsidy be permanent? Here it is by law, but only for homes and limited in capacity and has to be renewed periodically.


Quote:
I haven't looked up the spec, but it would be a pretty crappy
battery if it couldn't deliver 3 kW. That's about 30 amps at 120
VAC or 15 amps at 240 VAC.

Regular discharge at C/4 is quite stressful for a battery. 3kW is
a typical peak load in the UK for kettles and electric fan
heaters.

Not sure why you say that. Tesla car batteries are regularly charged
at a full C if not a bit higher. They are tapered off to a lower
rate over 50% charged. The max discharge rate is over 400 kW from my
100 kWh battery. Something like 515 HP, but of course that is
sporadic, not remotely sustained.

The question really is what is a sustainable discharge rate for one of
these things that will not lead to long term damage.


I'm sure it is the same as the charge rate.


> Do the batteries not get rather warm at a >1C charge rate?

Yes, they produce heat and are adequately cooled. Fortunately they can be warm so simple cooling is adequate. They can't be too cold however and must be heated in very low temps.


Quote:
I thought a standard outlet was 9 amps at 240 volts, that's more like
a bit over 2 kW. Is it more like 13 amps? Here it is 1.44 kW, 12
amps at 120 volts (the current for continuous loads is derated to
80%).

UK domestic sockets are rated for 13A full 3kW load.

Modern recommendations are that portable loads should not exceed 2.4kW
as plugs tend to get warm on 3kW and some nasty Chinese made extension
blocks will melt if you try to draw that much from a single socket.


I wonder where I got the 9 amp thing. 2.4 kW is 10 amps, right? If we had 3 kW outlets I wouldn't need to put in an expensive wall connector for my Tesla.

Rick C.

+-+ Get 6 months of free supercharging
+-+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209


Guest

Sat Jan 12, 2019 12:45 am   



On Friday, 11 January 2019 14:45:49 UTC, gnuarm.del...@gmail.com wrote:

> I would be surprised if the weather varied much across Europe.

Please tell us you're kidding. I could use some Spanish weather right now.


NT

Mike
Guest

Sat Jan 12, 2019 12:45 am   



Quote:

"Moments notice"? They don't really have to shut down 100%. They just need to scale back enough to mitigate the peak. What sort of industries can't do that?


Attention! The following workers will not be paid from 4pm to 8pm today
as we'll not be building cars on that line.

Building 6 workers will not be paid between 3 and 7 pm today as we won't
be needing engines during that time.

Just in time delivery portals will be shuttered between 2 and 10 pm
as we have no place to store the excess inventory. 16 new part time
workers will be hired to restock between 10pm and 2AM.

Paint dryers will be shut down between 4 and 8PM and will be ready
to accept new cars after the system reaches operating temperature
at 9PM.


I'm sure you can manage all that. Apply there for a job. You'll love it.


Guest

Sat Jan 12, 2019 3:45 am   



I am not here to pick on anybody, but;


>"If you can't be bothered to speak in a clear manner,..."

He is not the only one you sometimes have trouble understanding. It is probably a SLIGHT cognitive deficiency on your part because you are what is in common. I call them as I see them and I would have to agree it takes one to know one. I admit that I don't always do the best job in the world at expressing myself. Another thing you might find interesting (or amusing) is that I can't read or write, I shit you not. Cursive writing, forget it. Before the printing press I would be fucked. Also, you know how you (most people) can focus on one voice in a crowd ? Not me. And I have a very heard time understanding people with too heavy of an accent or poor diction, even if it is because of bad teeth. So quit that attitude that the deficiency is always the other guy. THAT is the problem with Sloman. (and I won't even pick on his name anymore, that is old)

>"then obviously what you have to say can't be very important. "

That statement is the current epitome of post hoc ergo propter hoc. Do you actually realize what you just said ? What you said there means that if anyone cannot express themselves to YOUR satisfaction and in a way that YOU can easily understand, that they could not have anything of import to say.

Fucking think about that. Think of all the people in this world who have low vision or are blind and using speech to text convertors. Shit, THINK ABOUT STEVEN HAWKINGS !

Let's put it this way, when it comes to expression and comprehension - other people, you are not on any high ground where you could roll bowling balls down on others and not have them come and hit you in the ankles.

(I think that one of my better metaphors but I did max out my poetic license to do it)

Bottom line, you are not perfect, get used to it. Don't worry, we all hate each other just the same. Like family. (god you should have seen mine, at the funerals, "What about the P-38,,,yeah, what about the P-38 ?")(the P-38 has been sealed in oil for hundreds of years or some shit and it like, REALLY valuable and that fucking Uncl...forget it)(and now his kid has is and he is nowhere to be found) Motherfuckers.


Guest

Sat Jan 12, 2019 4:45 am   



Quote:
"Attention! The following workers will not be paid from 4pm to 8pm today
as we'll not be building cars on that line.


Building 6 workers will not be paid between 3 and 7 pm today as we won't
be needing engines during that time.

Just in time delivery portals will be shuttered between 2 and 10 pm
as we have no place to store the excess inventory. 16 new part time
workers will be hired to restock between 10pm and 2AM.

Paint dryers will be shut down between 4 and 8PM and will be ready
to accept new cars after the system reaches operating temperature
at 9PM.


I'm sure you can manage all that. Apply there for a job. You'll love it. "

Good point. An illustrative method of saying "Easier said than done".

BUT, who the fuck said all the shift changes must be within a certain range of hours ? Traffic jams and more pollution are caused by too many people trying to got too many places at the same time.

Think about it, office jobs are always like 8-4 or 9-5, construction maybe 6-2 or 7-3. Why ? Now construction HAS a reason. Working outside in the hot sun it is good to start early and get off work before the hottest part of the day. But office workers can work anytime. You could say that they must be open when other businesses are open and that is a valid point, however with the globalisation that is out the window for certain parts of the "economy". Wanna deal on the stock exchange 10,000 miles away ? Well the rules are just a bit different. Manufacturing, in warm climates, instead of closing down the second and third shift when the work slows, contract filled whatthefuckever, shut down the FIRST shift. In the winter shut down the might shift first, but in the summer shut down the day shift first.

Why not ? Why haven't they thought of that ? Or if they have then why did they reject it ? Fuck all that, your job in business is to make the most money possible and energy costs cut into that. This should be simple. You don't even need math, really. Less is less, you do not need fucking calculus to tell you that.

But, you know how things are. And that is why it won't work. It will only work once people in power are enlightened and that ain't gonna happen soon because they are insulated from the consequences of their mistakes.

It's fucked up but that's the way it is. Look at the highway at rush hour. Think of this, fuck CO2, how about BTU. All those cars running and the engine would burn itself up without a cooling system because it produces so much heat. And then we got air conditioning in them. And there are hundreds of thousands of them TWICE a day.

Farmers are like construction in a way. They got certain hours to work, they usually require daylight. And when the time for working is there they have to work as much as possible. Dawn to dusk. They have to get up, go bring in the cows, feed them and a few other things, THEN have breakfast. And then they are out there all day long until it gets dark. And then in winter, they are sitting in their little houses with nothing to do, they have prepared for the winter and it is a matter of fucking around, do some carpentry, wrestle with the kids, all that kind of shit. But when it is time to work there is no time for that. Nature said so, not man.

It's a fucked up deal and none of us gets out alive.

Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10  Next

elektroda.net NewsGroups Forum Index - Electronics Design - Tesla Batteries

Ask a question - edaboard.com

Arabic version Bulgarian version Catalan version Czech version Danish version German version Greek version English version Spanish version Finnish version French version Hindi version Croatian version Indonesian version Italian version Hebrew version Japanese version Korean version Lithuanian version Latvian version Dutch version Norwegian version Polish version Portuguese version Romanian version Russian version Slovak version Slovenian version Serbian version Swedish version Tagalog version Ukrainian version Vietnamese version Chinese version Turkish version
EDAboard.com map