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Don Y
Guest

Mon Jan 09, 2017 1:59 am   



Smart phones are common enough that it seems feasible to compare the
populations using them to those who use(d) PC's.

I routinely get requests from friends/neighbors to "fix" their PC's
(malware, application configuration problems, botched updates, etc.).
But, have *never* had a request (thankfully!) to "fix" a smart phone.

Or, even a question as to how to "do something (specific)" on their
smart phone.

[Of course, most folks know that I don't *use* a cell phone so I may
have insulated myself from these requests! :> If I could just
retroactively CLAIM that I don't "use PC's" ... :-/ ]

Possible explanations:
- smart phone is a "simpler" device
- it has more constrained applications
- no significant "hardware add-ins"
- ... nor peripherals (e.g., no driver issues)
- not much *on* the phone (no TB stores) to "lose"
- walk in to a "phone store" to get answers
- "fixes" simple enough to be 'free' (oh, the nice man at the store...)
- better quality software (?)
etc.

So, the first question:
Are "phone problems" significantly less frequent than "computer problems"
(among folks here who use them and the folks to whom they are exposed)

And, the second:
Why?

And, the third:
Any variation in extent/seriousness of problems based on phone ecosystem?

bitrex
Guest

Mon Jan 09, 2017 4:09 am   



On 01/08/2017 01:59 PM, Don Y wrote:
Quote:
Smart phones are common enough that it seems feasible to compare the
populations using them to those who use(d) PC's.

I routinely get requests from friends/neighbors to "fix" their PC's
(malware, application configuration problems, botched updates, etc.).
But, have *never* had a request (thankfully!) to "fix" a smart phone.

Or, even a question as to how to "do something (specific)" on their
smart phone.

[Of course, most folks know that I don't *use* a cell phone so I may
have insulated myself from these requests! :> If I could just
retroactively CLAIM that I don't "use PC's" ... :-/ ]

Possible explanations:
- smart phone is a "simpler" device
- it has more constrained applications
- no significant "hardware add-ins"
- ... nor peripherals (e.g., no driver issues)
- not much *on* the phone (no TB stores) to "lose"
- walk in to a "phone store" to get answers
- "fixes" simple enough to be 'free' (oh, the nice man at the store...)
- better quality software (?)
etc.

So, the first question:
Are "phone problems" significantly less frequent than "computer problems"
(among folks here who use them and the folks to whom they are exposed)

And, the second:
Why?

And, the third:
Any variation in extent/seriousness of problems based on phone ecosystem?


For the most part, they don't run Windows. ;-)

Amazing how reliable computing can be when the software that can be
installed is all digitally-signed and certified by a central authority,
doesn't have a backward-compatibility requirement for some x86 ISA out
of 1987, and the OSes are derived from the Linux or Mach kernels, which
were written with some intrinsic notion of security.

Jasen Betts
Guest

Mon Jan 09, 2017 4:10 am   



On 2017-01-08, Don Y <blockedofcourse_at_foo.invalid> wrote:
Quote:
Smart phones are common enough that it seems feasible to compare the
populations using them to those who use(d) PC's.

I routinely get requests from friends/neighbors to "fix" their PC's
(malware, application configuration problems, botched updates, etc.).
But, have *never* had a request (thankfully!) to "fix" a smart phone.

Or, even a question as to how to "do something (specific)" on their
smart phone.

[Of course, most folks know that I don't *use* a cell phone so I may
have insulated myself from these requests! :> If I could just
retroactively CLAIM that I don't "use PC's" ... :-/ ]

Possible explanations:
- smart phone is a "simpler" device
- it has more constrained applications
- no significant "hardware add-ins"
- ... nor peripherals (e.g., no driver issues)
- not much *on* the phone (no TB stores) to "lose"
- walk in to a "phone store" to get answers
- "fixes" simple enough to be 'free' (oh, the nice man at the store...)
- better quality software (?)
etc.

So, the first question:
Are "phone problems" significantly less frequent than "computer problems"
(among folks here who use them and the folks to whom they are exposed)


hardware is less reliable,
my phone had the focus motor on the back camera stuck for 4 months, but then it came
good again. then the magnetometer, and now after falling on it again also the
accelerometer quit

software is a walled garden so that helps a bit wirh quality.

Quote:
And, the second:
Why?


Hardware it's a portable device, it will get dropped, knocked, etc.
frequently.

Quote:
And, the third:
Any variation in extent/seriousness of problems based on phone ecosystem?


You're unlikely to get an unbiased response

--
This email has not been checked by half-arsed antivirus software

bitrex
Guest

Mon Jan 09, 2017 4:10 am   



On 01/08/2017 04:09 PM, bitrex wrote:
Quote:
On 01/08/2017 01:59 PM, Don Y wrote:
Smart phones are common enough that it seems feasible to compare the
populations using them to those who use(d) PC's.

I routinely get requests from friends/neighbors to "fix" their PC's
(malware, application configuration problems, botched updates, etc.).
But, have *never* had a request (thankfully!) to "fix" a smart phone.

Or, even a question as to how to "do something (specific)" on their
smart phone.

[Of course, most folks know that I don't *use* a cell phone so I may
have insulated myself from these requests! :> If I could just
retroactively CLAIM that I don't "use PC's" ... :-/ ]

Possible explanations:
- smart phone is a "simpler" device
- it has more constrained applications
- no significant "hardware add-ins"
- ... nor peripherals (e.g., no driver issues)
- not much *on* the phone (no TB stores) to "lose"
- walk in to a "phone store" to get answers
- "fixes" simple enough to be 'free' (oh, the nice man at the store...)
- better quality software (?)
etc.

So, the first question:
Are "phone problems" significantly less frequent than "computer
problems"
(among folks here who use them and the folks to whom they are exposed)

And, the second:
Why?

And, the third:
Any variation in extent/seriousness of problems based on phone
ecosystem?

For the most part, they don't run Windows. ;-)

Amazing how reliable computing can be when the software that can be
installed is all digitally-signed and certified by a central authority,
doesn't have a backward-compatibility requirement for some x86 ISA out
of 1987, and the OSes are derived from the Linux or Mach kernels, which
were written with some intrinsic notion of security.


I've had my current Android smartphone for over a year, and I can think
of maybe one occasion where the whole system was brought down by a
misbehaving app. And it's not even running a particularly modern version
of Android (4.4.4).

Jeff Liebermann
Guest

Mon Jan 09, 2017 4:54 am   



On Sun, 8 Jan 2017 11:59:32 -0700, Don Y <blockedofcourse_at_foo.invalid>
wrote:

Quote:
Smart phones are common enough that it seems feasible to compare the
populations using them to those who use(d) PC's.

I routinely get requests from friends/neighbors to "fix" their PC's
(malware, application configuration problems, botched updates, etc.).
But, have *never* had a request (thankfully!) to "fix" a smart phone.


Out of curiosity, do you get any requests to fix Chromebooks? Chrome
OS is somewhat similar to Android on smartphones.

Quote:
Or, even a question as to how to "do something (specific)" on their
smart phone.


I get those questions fairly often, mostly on iPhones. If they're
simple, I do my best. If not, I don't bother doing the research and
send the owner to the Apple Genius Bar, which usually can fix the
problem, but rarely supplies a coherent explanation of what they did
to fix the problem in case it happens again. Android is much easier
because for every common problem, there are usually a dozen YouTube
videos on how to fix it, usually by a 15 year old.

Quote:
[Of course, most folks know that I don't *use* a cell phone so I may
have insulated myself from these requests! :> If I could just
retroactively CLAIM that I don't "use PC's" ... :-/ ]


I have a few friends and customers that carry two smartphone. You
must live in a 3rd world county.

Quote:
Possible explanations:
- smart phone is a "simpler" device
- it has more constrained applications
- no significant "hardware add-ins"
- ... nor peripherals (e.g., no driver issues)
- not much *on* the phone (no TB stores) to "lose"
- walk in to a "phone store" to get answers
- "fixes" simple enough to be 'free' (oh, the nice man at the store...)
- better quality software (?)
etc.


You forgot one. Users assume that smartphones are simple and easy to
use. Advertising, showing kids, slackers, the jet set, upper
management, and public personalities, few of which are blessed with a
technical background, reinforces this impression. Users are also
brain-laundered into believing that smartphones are so simple that
there couldn't possibly be something wrong with the service, hardware
quality, software, or firmware. If something doesn't work, or can't
seem to be done, it must be the users fault. If they went to you for
assistance, it would be like admitting that they are clueless and
somehow deficient in the ability to operate such a simple device. So,
they suffer with the bugs and config problems, secure in the knowledge
that none of their friends know that they had considered asking for
help on a smartphone. Perception is everything.

Quote:
So, the first question:
Are "phone problems" significantly less frequent than "computer problems"
(among folks here who use them and the folks to whom they are exposed)


Yes. The usual questions on smartphones that I get are dealing with
email problems, which usually are major. Last week, I had to deal
with a customer that had 50,000 emails saved on the IMAP4 server. Same
with the common "trash can" that had never been emptied. The rest are
usually how to do weird and ridiculous things, which are usually
solved by offering a more sane alternative.

Quote:
And, the second:
Why?


1. Because people try to do things on their smartphone that are best
done on a laptop or desktop. Tablets are kinda half way, with the
worst characteristics of both smartphones and laptops.

2. Because people often leave the water running, and don't notice
until there's a flood. Mostly, this applies to email, but also to
streaming music running in the background, subscriptions to high
traffic mailing lists, and notifications from hell. On a smartphone,
notifications are similar to advertisements and are a real PITA.

3. Because people tend to scale problems by the size of the machine
involved. Desktops are big, and therefore have big problems.
Smartphones are small, and therefore have much small problems. The
smaller smartwatches were suppose to have even fewer problems, but
vendors couldn't resist the temptation to throw in more than just the
kitchen sink, and turn it into an unusable mess.

4. Because smartphones are highly personalized, far more than
desktops and laptops. In effect, they become an extension of the
users personality or their "Personal Digital Assistant". I find
myself operating at reduced functionality when I forget mine at home.
The convenience of having most of my important information on hand has
become addictive to many, causing users to panic when something
doesn't work right. Android is quite good at recovering from such
situations. Apple, not so good. You're not seeing smartphone
problems because your friends and customers haven't become totally
addicted to smartphones, yet.

5. Because smartphones are now a fashion statement. My guess is that
you're not into fashion, cool, or trendy, and therefore are not a good
person to ask for information on the latest and greatest fashion
accessory, the smartphone.

6. Because smartphones are commonly and often mishandled, even by the
most careful users.
<http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/pics/repair/slides/Iphone4-cracked-screen-01.html>
I get broken screens, broken connectors, broken switches, broken
chargers, broken MicroSD slots, broken BT keyboards, broken battery
connections, etc. If it's user accessible, it will break. I've
become fairly adept at replacing the MicroSD receptacle on the
smartphone main board. Replacing screens vary from easy to
impossible. I usually check online to determine the difficulty before
trying.

7. Jailbreaking and rooting phones is in a class by itself. In
general, a user with such phones will produce an endless string of
minor problems, all because of the side effects of breaking the
factory security. I help by doing the research, but find excuses not
to do the actual work.

I can go on forever, that should suffice.

Quote:
And, the third:
Any variation in extent/seriousness of problems based on phone ecosystem?


The only problems I take seriously are security issues. Theft of the
address book by apps is the most common. It's fortunately not very
common among smartphone problems. The rest is a question of how much
the customer is willing to pay. Often, they do not want to separated
from their smartphone for very long, so I temporarily move the account
to a loaner phone, until the parts arrive and the repair is done.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl_at_cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

Don Y
Guest

Mon Jan 09, 2017 6:40 am   



On 1/8/2017 2:10 PM, bitrex wrote:
Quote:
On 01/08/2017 04:09 PM, bitrex wrote:
On 01/08/2017 01:59 PM, Don Y wrote:
Smart phones are common enough that it seems feasible to compare the
populations using them to those who use(d) PC's.

I routinely get requests from friends/neighbors to "fix" their PC's
(malware, application configuration problems, botched updates, etc.).
But, have *never* had a request (thankfully!) to "fix" a smart phone.

Or, even a question as to how to "do something (specific)" on their
smart phone.

[Of course, most folks know that I don't *use* a cell phone so I may
have insulated myself from these requests! :> If I could just
retroactively CLAIM that I don't "use PC's" ... :-/ ]

Possible explanations:
- smart phone is a "simpler" device
- it has more constrained applications
- no significant "hardware add-ins"
- ... nor peripherals (e.g., no driver issues)
- not much *on* the phone (no TB stores) to "lose"
- walk in to a "phone store" to get answers
- "fixes" simple enough to be 'free' (oh, the nice man at the store...)
- better quality software (?)
etc.

So, the first question:
Are "phone problems" significantly less frequent than "computer
problems"
(among folks here who use them and the folks to whom they are exposed)

And, the second:
Why?

And, the third:
Any variation in extent/seriousness of problems based on phone
ecosystem?

For the most part, they don't run Windows. ;-)

Amazing how reliable computing can be when the software that can be
installed is all digitally-signed and certified by a central authority,


I'm reasonably sure no one really "certifies" anything (in terms of
attesting to its quality/reliability/etc.). Rather, it's just a way of
controlling who can push apps to phones.

Quote:
doesn't have a backward-compatibility requirement for some x86 ISA out
of 1987, and the OSes are derived from the Linux or Mach kernels, which
were written with some intrinsic notion of security.

I've had my current Android smartphone for over a year, and I can think of
maybe one occasion where the whole system was brought down by a misbehaving
app. And it's not even running a particularly modern version of Android (4.4.4).


That suggests the security model is lacking in a big way. I've not seen
an "application" crash a Windows machine (of mine) since pre-W2K (though
I have seen hardware errors bring the kernel to its knees by its refusal
to panic()!)

I suspect most phone apps have no need to even THINK about the hardware
so can't affect anything beyond their own (contained) execution environment.
Not so in the PC world where you have folks designing video cards, USB/FW
peripherals, etc. -- all needing driver access to the system.

Don Y
Guest

Mon Jan 09, 2017 6:44 am   



On 1/8/2017 2:10 PM, Jasen Betts wrote:
Quote:
On 2017-01-08, Don Y <blockedofcourse_at_foo.invalid> wrote:
Smart phones are common enough that it seems feasible to compare the
populations using them to those who use(d) PC's.

I routinely get requests from friends/neighbors to "fix" their PC's
(malware, application configuration problems, botched updates, etc.).
But, have *never* had a request (thankfully!) to "fix" a smart phone.

Or, even a question as to how to "do something (specific)" on their
smart phone.

[Of course, most folks know that I don't *use* a cell phone so I may
have insulated myself from these requests! :> If I could just
retroactively CLAIM that I don't "use PC's" ... :-/ ]

Possible explanations:
- smart phone is a "simpler" device
- it has more constrained applications
- no significant "hardware add-ins"
- ... nor peripherals (e.g., no driver issues)
- not much *on* the phone (no TB stores) to "lose"
- walk in to a "phone store" to get answers
- "fixes" simple enough to be 'free' (oh, the nice man at the store...)
- better quality software (?)
etc.

So, the first question:
Are "phone problems" significantly less frequent than "computer problems"
(among folks here who use them and the folks to whom they are exposed)

hardware is less reliable,
my phone had the focus motor on the back camera stuck for 4 months, but then it came
good again. then the magnetometer, and now after falling on it again also the
accelerometer quit


The same sort of things can be said for laptops. You *cringe* when a laptop
clatters to the floor. You seldom replace keyboards, optical drives, displays,
etc. (sure, you CAN but most folks would just replace the entire laptop).

> software is a walled garden so that helps a bit wirh quality.

For PC *applications* that is largely the case now, as well. No reason
for a misbehaving application to trash the rest of the system -- unless
the kernel has bugs (or services running with elevated permission have
exploits -- probably more likely in a PC environment with the greater variety
of applications that it has to support)

Quote:
And, the second:
Why?

Hardware it's a portable device, it will get dropped, knocked, etc.
frequently.

And, the third:
Any variation in extent/seriousness of problems based on phone ecosystem?

You're unlikely to get an unbiased response


Likely few people have experience in more than one "camp".

Like asking for an unbiased appraisal of a Mac vs. PC: how many
people *live* in both environments (vs. "just visiting")?

Don Y
Guest

Mon Jan 09, 2017 8:30 am   



On 1/8/2017 2:54 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
Quote:
On Sun, 8 Jan 2017 11:59:32 -0700, Don Y <blockedofcourse_at_foo.invalid
wrote:

Smart phones are common enough that it seems feasible to compare the
populations using them to those who use(d) PC's.

I routinely get requests from friends/neighbors to "fix" their PC's
(malware, application configuration problems, botched updates, etc.).
But, have *never* had a request (thankfully!) to "fix" a smart phone.

Out of curiosity, do you get any requests to fix Chromebooks? Chrome
OS is somewhat similar to Android on smartphones.


No. I don't know anyone who owns one! Tablets/iPads (which I "beg off"),
laptops/toughbooks, desktops, servers. I've avoided Mac's and phones,
successfully!

Quote:
Or, even a question as to how to "do something (specific)" on their
smart phone.

I get those questions fairly often, mostly on iPhones. If they're
simple, I do my best. If not, I don't bother doing the research and
send the owner to the Apple Genius Bar, which usually can fix the
problem, but rarely supplies a coherent explanation of what they did
to fix the problem in case it happens again. Android is much easier
because for every common problem, there are usually a dozen YouTube
videos on how to fix it, usually by a 15 year old.


I don't think there are many "complex" apps on phones (for typ users).
And, I don't think people expect to interact with their phones for
"challenging" work.

I had a cute little slide phone (despise the "soft" keyboards) that
had stripped down versions of Excel and Word installed. I can
possibly see someone using one of these to open/view an email
attachment. But, I can't really see someone sitting down and
designing/populating a spreadsheet on a 2.5" screen!

OTOH, it was handy for checking email and some limited web sites
(esp as it was tiny enough to fit in a pocket without sticking
out like an oversized candy bar -- and just as fragile)

From my (brief/limited) examination of the sorts of apps that
run on phones, they tend to be very trivial things -- almost
"weekend projects" in terms of logical complexity. Not the
sort of thing that you'd be "exploring in depth" or for any
significant amount of time.

Quote:
[Of course, most folks know that I don't *use* a cell phone so I may
have insulated myself from these requests! :> If I could just
retroactively CLAIM that I don't "use PC's" ... :-/ ]

I have a few friends and customers that carry two smartphone. You
must live in a 3rd world county.


I long ago came to the conclusion that phones exist for the convenience
of the CALLER. Even moreso with cell phones (note how surprised folks get
if you don't answer on the second ring: "Where WERE you??").

[Note how incapable most folks are to "break their conditioning" -- Pavlov
chirps their phone and they're reaching for it before even considering *why*
they should be reaching for it ("Oh, someone wants to tell me something!
I must obey...")]

I keep an iPhone (w/o service) in the car as a "911 phone", camera, portable
wifi email/WWW client, calculator, etc. I certainly wouldn't want to feel
obligated to carry it on my person! Or, have it with me at all times
(for the convenience of folks who want to get in touch with me). :>

[If *I* want to contact someone, I'll send an email -- knowing they can
read it and reply at THEIR convenience *or* visit face-to-face. Unlike
the "instant gratification" generation that expects their questions answered
almost as soon as they pop into their heads, I can think about what I want to
ask and how I want to phrase it -- in the time between the thought occuring to
me and the time I act on it]

Quote:
Possible explanations:
- smart phone is a "simpler" device
- it has more constrained applications
- no significant "hardware add-ins"
- ... nor peripherals (e.g., no driver issues)
- not much *on* the phone (no TB stores) to "lose"
- walk in to a "phone store" to get answers
- "fixes" simple enough to be 'free' (oh, the nice man at the store...)
- better quality software (?)
etc.

You forgot one. Users assume that smartphones are simple and easy to
use. Advertising, showing kids, slackers, the jet set, upper
management, and public personalities, few of which are blessed with a
technical background, reinforces this impression. Users are also
brain-laundered into believing that smartphones are so simple that
there couldn't possibly be something wrong with the service, hardware
quality, software, or firmware. If something doesn't work, or can't
seem to be done, it must be the users fault. If they went to you for
assistance, it would be like admitting that they are clueless and
somehow deficient in the ability to operate such a simple device. So,
they suffer with the bugs and config problems, secure in the knowledge
that none of their friends know that they had considered asking for
help on a smartphone. Perception is everything.


I don't have that sort of a relationship with my friends/neighbors
(nor colleagues). There's no pretense in our relationships. I don't
try to leave the impression that I can do thoracic surgery -- nor
operate a back hoe. Likewise, they don't claim to know (or even understand)
what *I* do. If so, why would we need each other?!

Quote:
6. Because smartphones are commonly and often mishandled, even by the
most careful users.
http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/pics/repair/slides/Iphone4-cracked-screen-01.html
I get broken screens, broken connectors, broken switches, broken
chargers, broken MicroSD slots, broken BT keyboards, broken battery
connections, etc. If it's user accessible, it will break. I've
become fairly adept at replacing the MicroSD receptacle on the
smartphone main board. Replacing screens vary from easy to
impossible. I usually check online to determine the difficulty before
trying.


IME, people seem to just use this sort of thing as an excuse to "upgrade"
or change providers. I inherit a fair bit of "broken" kit that often isn;t
REALLY broken -- someone just wanted to make that claim as a way to justify
making a new purchase.

I suspect people manhandle/caress their phones far more than any part of
a laptop/desktop. And, refuse to leave home without it -- regardless of
how appropriate it would be in the environment in which they will find
themselves.

bitrex
Guest

Mon Jan 09, 2017 8:30 am   



On 01/08/2017 06:40 PM, Don Y wrote:
Quote:
On 1/8/2017 2:10 PM, bitrex wrote:
On 01/08/2017 04:09 PM, bitrex wrote:
On 01/08/2017 01:59 PM, Don Y wrote:
Smart phones are common enough that it seems feasible to compare the
populations using them to those who use(d) PC's.

I routinely get requests from friends/neighbors to "fix" their PC's
(malware, application configuration problems, botched updates, etc.).
But, have *never* had a request (thankfully!) to "fix" a smart phone.

Or, even a question as to how to "do something (specific)" on their
smart phone.

[Of course, most folks know that I don't *use* a cell phone so I may
have insulated myself from these requests! :> If I could just
retroactively CLAIM that I don't "use PC's" ... :-/ ]

Possible explanations:
- smart phone is a "simpler" device
- it has more constrained applications
- no significant "hardware add-ins"
- ... nor peripherals (e.g., no driver issues)
- not much *on* the phone (no TB stores) to "lose"
- walk in to a "phone store" to get answers
- "fixes" simple enough to be 'free' (oh, the nice man at the store...)
- better quality software (?)
etc.

So, the first question:
Are "phone problems" significantly less frequent than "computer
problems"
(among folks here who use them and the folks to whom they are exposed)

And, the second:
Why?

And, the third:
Any variation in extent/seriousness of problems based on phone
ecosystem?

For the most part, they don't run Windows. ;-)

Amazing how reliable computing can be when the software that can be
installed is all digitally-signed and certified by a central authority,

I'm reasonably sure no one really "certifies" anything (in terms of
attesting to its quality/reliability/etc.). Rather, it's just a way of
controlling who can push apps to phones.

doesn't have a backward-compatibility requirement for some x86 ISA out
of 1987, and the OSes are derived from the Linux or Mach kernels, which
were written with some intrinsic notion of security.

I've had my current Android smartphone for over a year, and I can
think of
maybe one occasion where the whole system was brought down by a
misbehaving
app. And it's not even running a particularly modern version of
Android (4.4.4).

That suggests the security model is lacking in a big way. I've not seen
an "application" crash a Windows machine (of mine) since pre-W2K (though
I have seen hardware errors bring the kernel to its knees by its refusal
to panic()!)


You've never had a Windows application lock the entire system solid such
that it required a reboot to get it to respond again? Never since pre Win2K?

You must be extremely lucky...;-)

Quote:
I suspect most phone apps have no need to even THINK about the hardware
so can't affect anything beyond their own (contained) execution
environment.
Not so in the PC world where you have folks designing video cards, USB/FW
peripherals, etc. -- all needing driver access to the system.


Not even "misbehaving" strictly I guess, but run a bloated enough app on
a phone that doesn't quite have enough resources to accommodate it and
you can lock up an Android phone, no problem at all.

I'm somewhat convinced the entire smartphone upgrade industry is driven
by just how bloated and resource hungry the Facebook application
becomes. I believe a couple years back the Android devtools had to be
amended because the FB Android app's codebase was hitting up against the
maximum number of classes allowed in the framework; something like 65,000.

Jeff Liebermann
Guest

Mon Jan 09, 2017 2:45 pm   



On Sun, 8 Jan 2017 20:58:48 -0700, Don Y <blockedofcourse_at_foo.invalid>
wrote:

Quote:
No. I don't know anyone who owns one! Tablets/iPads (which I "beg off"),
laptops/toughbooks, desktops, servers. I've avoided Mac's and phones,
successfully!


There are over 2 billion active smartphones on the planet:
<https://www.statista.com/statistics/330695/number-of-smartphone-users-worldwide/>
That's one in 3 humans, including kids and seniors, who have one. Face
reality... you're surrounded by smartphones.

If you have a chance, you might want to take a look at a Chromebook. I
have several and they are my number one computer for web and email.

>I don't think there are many "complex" apps on phones (for typ users).

Most of the complex apps are Google and Microsoft's attempts to force
fit desktop office programs onto a smartphone:
<https://gsuite.google.com>
<https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.microsoft.office.officehub&hl=en>
There are also a large number of web apps, which will work on anything
that runs a web browser.

Quote:
And, I don't think people expect to interact with their phones for
"challenging" work.


Sorta. Smartphones and tablets are not very useful for data input or
even editing. However, they are quite useful for viewing data and
reading documents. For example, I have an Autocad DWG viewer for
dealing with drawings on smartphone and tablet.
<https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.autodesk.autocadws>
Note that it can be used for editing, but I only use it for
annotation.

Quote:
OTOH, it was handy for checking email and some limited web sites
(esp as it was tiny enough to fit in a pocket without sticking
out like an oversized candy bar -- and just as fragile)


Todays smartphones have MUCH better screens. In particular, the OLED
screens are gorgeous. For example, I just horse traded for a Samsung
Glaxy S6 phone:
<http://www.gsmarena.com/samsung_galaxy_s6-6849.php>
which has a 5.1 inch screen with 1440 x 2560 pixels (~577 ppi pixel
density). I need to use my reading glasses to see detail, but even
the fine print is readable. Incidentally, that's more dots than my
junk laptop at 1600x900 dots or my desktop at 1680x1050 and 1920x1200
dots.

Quote:
From my (brief/limited) examination of the sorts of apps that
run on phones, they tend to be very trivial things -- almost
"weekend projects" in terms of logical complexity. Not the
sort of thing that you'd be "exploring in depth" or for any
significant amount of time.


I presume you've never tried any of the games that are designed
specifically for smartphones, which seem to have infinite complexity
(and are capable of burning infinite amounts of time).

Quote:
I long ago came to the conclusion that phones exist for the convenience
of the CALLER.


Correct. I'm in business and if I don't answer the phone, the
customer will call someone else to fix their computah. I started with
an IMTS mobile phone in my car and an Motorola H04ANC pager in my
pocket in about 1975. I've gone through a succession of 2 way radio
phone patches, pagers, cell phones, and smartphones in order to stay
connected. If I ever want to retire overnight, I can do it by simply
not answering my various phones.

Quote:
I don't have that sort of a relationship with my friends/neighbors
(nor colleagues). There's no pretense in our relationships. I don't
try to leave the impression that I can do thoracic surgery -- nor
operate a back hoe. Likewise, they don't claim to know (or even understand)
what *I* do. If so, why would we need each other?!


I have friends and I have customers. The only difference is that the
customers pay me. I do far more than just fix their computahs or
machines. I'm often asked to work on all manner of electronic
devices, some of which I'll readily admit that I've never attempted.
The days of the neighborhood repair shop are long gone. Yet the need
persists. Today, I cleaned the crud out of the neighbors cordless
phone handset keyboard. Yesterday, I fixed a loose connection in a
big battery charger, replace a broken glass in a pressure gauge,
removed a years worth of accumulated crumbs from a keyboard, and
troubleshot a balky diesel engine (open glow plug). Tomorrow, I'll be
rebuilding (loose and missing screws) and cleaning a microscope. It's
like this every day, and on almost every service call. If all I did
was one thing, I would be bored stiff.

Quote:
IME, people seem to just use this sort of thing as an excuse to "upgrade"
or change providers. I inherit a fair bit of "broken" kit that often isn;t
REALLY broken -- someone just wanted to make that claim as a way to justify
making a new purchase.


Bad guess. There are those that have to have a new toy to play with
every year or two. However, most of my customer try to use their
smartphones and computers for as long as possible. Part of the reason
is that it saves money, but the real reason is that they don't want to
fight the learning curve with a new toy unless absolutely necessary.
In general, they upgrade their computahs and phones when they need to
do something important and the old device isn't capable of doing it,
or the old device has become so slow as to be nearly useless. I'm
facing that now with my now ancient Motorola Moto G (1st generation)
with only 8GB of RAM. The OS and apps have grown so much that I'm
constantly running out of storage space. Time for an upgrade.

Quote:
I suspect people manhandle/caress their phones far more than any part of
a laptop/desktop. And, refuse to leave home without it -- regardless of
how appropriate it would be in the environment in which they will find
themselves.


True. Smartphones are a fashion statement. Laptops were at one time,
but no longer. Tablets, probably not.


--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl_at_cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

Don Y
Guest

Mon Jan 09, 2017 3:14 pm   



On 1/9/2017 12:45 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
Quote:
On Sun, 8 Jan 2017 20:58:48 -0700, Don Y <blockedofcourse_at_foo.invalid
wrote:

No. I don't know anyone who owns one! Tablets/iPads (which I "beg off"),
laptops/toughbooks, desktops, servers. I've avoided Mac's and phones,
successfully!

There are over 2 billion active smartphones on the planet:
https://www.statista.com/statistics/330695/number-of-smartphone-users-worldwide/
That's one in 3 humans, including kids and seniors, who have one. Face
reality... you're surrounded by smartphones.


I'm also surrounded by lots of *coffee* -- doesn't mean I have to drink it! :>

Quote:
If you have a chance, you might want to take a look at a Chromebook. I
have several and they are my number one computer for web and email.


I've become spoiled by large screens. Even my laptops have 17" screens
(my desktops considerably larger).

Quote:
I don't think there are many "complex" apps on phones (for typ users).

Most of the complex apps are Google and Microsoft's attempts to force
fit desktop office programs onto a smartphone:
https://gsuite.google.com
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.microsoft.office.officehub&hl=en
There are also a large number of web apps, which will work on anything
that runs a web browser.


Of course, a web app is still constrained by a tiny screen on a phone.
E.g., I read ebooks and other "documents" at "full scale" or larger (i.e., an
8.5 x 11 page typically needs at least a 12" (diag) screen -- in portrait
orientation.

And keyboards shouldn't require use of a stylus just to type something
without mistyping!

Quote:
And, I don't think people expect to interact with their phones for
"challenging" work.

Sorta. Smartphones and tablets are not very useful for data input or
even editing. However, they are quite useful for viewing data and
reading documents. For example, I have an Autocad DWG viewer for
dealing with drawings on smartphone and tablet.
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.autodesk.autocadws
Note that it can be used for editing, but I only use it for
annotation.


I use my iPhone 6 for reading (checking) email, etc. No desire to
write a missive using its klunky virtual keyboard.

OTOH, I was very comfortable using the "real" keys on the (smaller!)
slide phone to send mail.

Quote:
OTOH, it was handy for checking email and some limited web sites
(esp as it was tiny enough to fit in a pocket without sticking
out like an oversized candy bar -- and just as fragile)

Todays smartphones have MUCH better screens. In particular, the OLED
screens are gorgeous. For example, I just horse traded for a Samsung
Glaxy S6 phone:
http://www.gsmarena.com/samsung_galaxy_s6-6849.php
which has a 5.1 inch screen with 1440 x 2560 pixels (~577 ppi pixel
density). I need to use my reading glasses to see detail, but even
the fine print is readable. Incidentally, that's more dots than my
junk laptop at 1600x900 dots or my desktop at 1680x1050 and 1920x1200
dots.


One reason for wanting big displays is to NOT need to wear glasses!

Quote:
From my (brief/limited) examination of the sorts of apps that
run on phones, they tend to be very trivial things -- almost
"weekend projects" in terms of logical complexity. Not the
sort of thing that you'd be "exploring in depth" or for any
significant amount of time.

I presume you've never tried any of the games that are designed
specifically for smartphones, which seem to have infinite complexity
(and are capable of burning infinite amounts of time).


Nope. I'd rather play one of my pinball machines or an arcade piece.

Quote:
I long ago came to the conclusion that phones exist for the convenience
of the CALLER.

Correct. I'm in business and if I don't answer the phone, the
customer will call someone else to fix their computah. I started with
an IMTS mobile phone in my car and an Motorola H04ANC pager in my
pocket in about 1975. I've gone through a succession of 2 way radio
phone patches, pagers, cell phones, and smartphones in order to stay
connected. If I ever want to retire overnight, I can do it by simply
not answering my various phones.


Long ago, I transitioned clients to email. This cut down on the "phone tag".
And, allowed me to accept "correspondence" while asleep -- as well as letting
them receive replies while they were no longer in the office.

But, the biggest gain was it ensured we all agreed on what was said -- and
what wasn't. Amazing how quickly folks forget qualifiers on verbal discussions
("You said it would only take a week!" "No, I said a MOCK UP would take a
week; you want it to WORK, then you have to let me prepare a specification
and schedule -- which wasn't of interest to you when we were chatting on the
phone!")

Quote:
I don't have that sort of a relationship with my friends/neighbors
(nor colleagues). There's no pretense in our relationships. I don't
try to leave the impression that I can do thoracic surgery -- nor
operate a back hoe. Likewise, they don't claim to know (or even understand)
what *I* do. If so, why would we need each other?!

I have friends and I have customers. The only difference is that the
customers pay me. I do far more than just fix their computahs or
machines. I'm often asked to work on all manner of electronic
devices, some of which I'll readily admit that I've never attempted.
The days of the neighborhood repair shop are long gone. Yet the need
persists. Today, I cleaned the crud out of the neighbors cordless
phone handset keyboard. Yesterday, I fixed a loose connection in a
big battery charger, replace a broken glass in a pressure gauge,
removed a years worth of accumulated crumbs from a keyboard, and
troubleshot a balky diesel engine (open glow plug). Tomorrow, I'll be
rebuilding (loose and missing screws) and cleaning a microscope. It's
like this every day, and on almost every service call. If all I did
was one thing, I would be bored stiff.


In my case, friends can ask for more than customers; if money is
involved, I can simply refuse the job.

With friends, there is more involved than the (non-existent) monetary
payment as there's a PERSONAL relationship at stake: "No, I *really*
don't want to entertain your kids for the day -- but, I realize your wife's
surgery has you preoccupied and having to herd children in the hospital
waiting room is probably not how you'd like to spend an already
stressful day!"

Quote:
IME, people seem to just use this sort of thing as an excuse to "upgrade"
or change providers. I inherit a fair bit of "broken" kit that often isn;t
REALLY broken -- someone just wanted to make that claim as a way to justify
making a new purchase.

Bad guess. There are those that have to have a new toy to play with
every year or two. However, most of my customer try to use their
smartphones and computers for as long as possible. Part of the reason
is that it saves money, but the real reason is that they don't want to
fight the learning curve with a new toy unless absolutely necessary.


I see the exact opposite: folks looking for an excuse to try something
new instead of dealing with something "old" that they've tired of.
Young people being the worst offenders -- concocting all sorts of
rationalizations for why they *need* a new <whatever>.

Quote:
In general, they upgrade their computahs and phones when they need to
do something important and the old device isn't capable of doing it,
or the old device has become so slow as to be nearly useless. I'm
facing that now with my now ancient Motorola Moto G (1st generation)
with only 8GB of RAM. The OS and apps have grown so much that I'm
constantly running out of storage space. Time for an upgrade.

I suspect people manhandle/caress their phones far more than any part of
a laptop/desktop. And, refuse to leave home without it -- regardless of
how appropriate it would be in the environment in which they will find
themselves.

True. Smartphones are a fashion statement. Laptops were at one time,
but no longer. Tablets, probably not.


Smartphones seem to be "companions" to many -- getting all sorts of
"notifications" throughout the day (as if the phone was somehow acknowledging
your existence by doing so).

bitrex
Guest

Mon Jan 09, 2017 10:25 pm   



On 01/09/2017 03:14 AM, Don Y wrote:

Quote:
Smartphones seem to be "companions" to many -- getting all sorts of
"notifications" throughout the day (as if the phone was somehow
acknowledging
your existence by doing so).


I haven't hit my 40s yet, but there's nothing sadder to me than a couple
of kids in their late 20s on what I imagine might be a date just sitting
across from each other at a restaurant table and....texting.

The most pathetic example I've seen in recent memory of this was a drunk
young man of about 25 or so with a bad 1980s synth band haircut at a
nightclub whose (I imagine) drunk girlfriend was attempting to engage
him in conversation.

"Johnny I think we sho..."

"Shh. Hang on, I'm texting somebody."

She puts his arms around him and looks sad.

"But don't you think..."

"I said I'm TEXTING SOMEONE IMPORTANT, HOLD THE FUCK UP BITCH SHIT GODDAMN"

Don Y
Guest

Tue Jan 10, 2017 3:02 pm   



On 1/8/2017 10:51 PM, bitrex wrote:
Quote:
On 01/08/2017 06:40 PM, Don Y wrote:
On 1/8/2017 2:10 PM, bitrex wrote:
On 01/08/2017 04:09 PM, bitrex wrote:
On 01/08/2017 01:59 PM, Don Y wrote:
Smart phones are common enough that it seems feasible to compare the
populations using them to those who use(d) PC's.

I routinely get requests from friends/neighbors to "fix" their PC's
(malware, application configuration problems, botched updates, etc.).
But, have *never* had a request (thankfully!) to "fix" a smart phone.

Or, even a question as to how to "do something (specific)" on their
smart phone.

[Of course, most folks know that I don't *use* a cell phone so I may
have insulated myself from these requests! :> If I could just
retroactively CLAIM that I don't "use PC's" ... :-/ ]

Possible explanations:
- smart phone is a "simpler" device
- it has more constrained applications
- no significant "hardware add-ins"
- ... nor peripherals (e.g., no driver issues)
- not much *on* the phone (no TB stores) to "lose"
- walk in to a "phone store" to get answers
- "fixes" simple enough to be 'free' (oh, the nice man at the store...)
- better quality software (?)
etc.

So, the first question:
Are "phone problems" significantly less frequent than "computer
problems"
(among folks here who use them and the folks to whom they are exposed)

And, the second:
Why?

And, the third:
Any variation in extent/seriousness of problems based on phone
ecosystem?

For the most part, they don't run Windows. ;-)

Amazing how reliable computing can be when the software that can be
installed is all digitally-signed and certified by a central authority,

I'm reasonably sure no one really "certifies" anything (in terms of
attesting to its quality/reliability/etc.). Rather, it's just a way of
controlling who can push apps to phones.

doesn't have a backward-compatibility requirement for some x86 ISA out
of 1987, and the OSes are derived from the Linux or Mach kernels, which
were written with some intrinsic notion of security.

I've had my current Android smartphone for over a year, and I can
think of
maybe one occasion where the whole system was brought down by a
misbehaving
app. And it's not even running a particularly modern version of
Android (4.4.4).

That suggests the security model is lacking in a big way. I've not seen
an "application" crash a Windows machine (of mine) since pre-W2K (though
I have seen hardware errors bring the kernel to its knees by its refusal
to panic()!)

You've never had a Windows application lock the entire system solid such that
it required a reboot to get it to respond again? Never since pre Win2K?


No. And, with multiple cores, nowadays, even less likely that "something"
will manage to tie up all cores to the exclusion of everything else on the
ready list.

Hardware failures, OTOH, seem to be handled ungraciously -- as if "waiting"
is always the wisest thing for the kernel to do...

> You must be extremely lucky...Wink

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