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Retro Button Would Further Automation On the Boeing Max & Ev

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Ralph Mowery
Guest

Fri Jun 28, 2019 8:45 pm   



In article <e1bcff94-6e86-4c7e-8f76-31132f45b1fa_at_googlegroups.com>,
jfeng_at_my-deja.com says...
Quote:

I think their problems started when the bean counters took over the company and moved the HQ to Chicago. The company was no longer being run by the engineers/pilots who had jet fuel in their veins and who knew what they were looking at when they walked around the manufacturing plant.



Many companies have been ruined by the bean counters. They may do a
good job of counting, but can not cook with anything.
Another thing is hiring some fresh out of college engineers. They do no
t understand how things work.

I had an argument with an engineer where I worked. She wanted me to
tear into a control valve because of a problem because of a probelm I
had already fixed. A regulator up line had went bad. I told her I did
not care what her damn old data on the computer said, if the valve is
not getting any thing to it, the valve can not control it.

jfeng@my-deja.com
Guest

Fri Jun 28, 2019 8:45 pm   



On Friday, June 28, 2019 at 12:03:02 PM UTC-7, Ralph Mowery wrote:
Quote:

Many companies have been ruined by the bean counters......
I think of corporate raiders and other financial vultures like Carl Icahn whose sole purpose was to use leveraged buyouts to siphon the assets out of a company before the rest of the system realized what had been done and to leave the lenders holding the bag.


Ralph Mowery
Guest

Fri Jun 28, 2019 9:45 pm   



In article <b03ea7ae-78d1-4402-a67e-241997dbcc9d_at_googlegroups.com>,
jfeng_at_my-deja.com says...
Quote:

Many companies have been ruined by the bean counters......
I think of corporate raiders and other financial vultures like Carl Icahn whose sole purpose was to use leveraged buyouts to siphon the assets out of a company before the rest of the system realized what had been done and to leave the lenders holding the bag.



What was the final nail for the company I worked for was another company
bought us out. They did not spend any money on updating or ever
overhauling any of the equipment. Just ran it and when it broke, would
do the minimum to get it running, even if it ment robbing parts off old
equipment that may be needed later. When the plant was almost ready to
fall down so the speak, they sold it to another company that did not
know how bad of shape the plant was in. During the years it went from
over 3000 people to about 300 before it finally shut down.

Ralph Mowery
Guest

Fri Jun 28, 2019 9:45 pm   



In article <vikchelgk0nvnf68slgm2q0fj9rr1vs45f_at_4ax.com>,
default_at_defaulter.net says...
Quote:

You are right about over-ride in the sense that the pilot should be
the last and ultimate arbiter of flight surface control - not the
machine.

The plane could be aimed at the ground, but as long as the one sensor
said it was nose-up, it was still going to force the nose down.



Reminds me of a problem at work. The process is controlled by a
computer . The operator put one control valve in manual, but the
computer would not let it go but to 20 % closed. There was a sensor
that the computer looked at that was bad and the software would not let
the valve close, so it over filled a vessel, shut a production line down
and cost about $ 100,000 before it could be restarted.

Bret Cahill
Guest

Sat Jun 29, 2019 12:45 am   



Quote:
What was the final nail for the company I worked for was another company
bought us out. They did not spend any money on updating or ever
overhauling any of the equipment. Just ran it and when it broke, would
do the minimum to get it running, even if it ment robbing parts off old
equipment that may be needed later. When the plant was almost ready to
fall down so the speak, they sold it to another company that did not
know how bad of shape the plant was in. During the years it went from
over 3000 people to about 300 before it finally shut down.


It's always interesting to see how degraded/off spec machinery can get and still run.

I put 7,000 km on a chain and cassette in addition to the high mileage already on it when I acquired the MTB. I used WD-40 every few months even though the heat and dust caused it to start squeaking after 3 weeks. Maybe 20% of the time it was lubricated. The performance dropped off slowly enough it was like the frog in boiling water. I never really noticed how bad it had gotten. Eventually the chain "stretched" -- actually the pins wear -- so much that it would skip under any force at all.

When I finally put a new chain and cluster on it was a life altering experience. I went 50% faster and further. On the down side I've been afraid to go into the dirt ever since.


Bret Cahill

Bret Cahill
Guest

Mon Dec 23, 2019 10:28 pm   



Shades of grey for over riding the software:

"We do, however, know that Boeing has made one significant change to the MCAS. It has decreased the “authority” of the system, so that if it is triggered it no longer has sufficient power to override input from the pilots and force down the nose, as it did in the two crashes. Many analysts were surprised that MCAS had that degree of power in the first place.."

https://www.yahoo.com/news/anybody-flies-boeing-737-max-095934811.html

Quote:
Put a retro or "my kingdom for a horse" switch on anything that seems unnecessarily over automated or when the additional sophistication is of a minor advantage.

If anything doesn't seem perfect, tap the retro switch and you are back to flying by the seat of your pants or at least something that is less complicated / more proven technology.

It may seem counter intuitive but this would actually _further_ automation and sophistication by taking some of the pressure off the designers trying to get every unanticipated situation right the first time.

It may also reduce some of the concerns about AI.

It's astounding this isn't SOP in every design engineering dept.


Bret Cahill


Bret Cahill
Guest

Sat Feb 08, 2020 5:45 pm   



More software problems:

https://phys.org/news/2020-02-defective-software-doomed-boeing-crew.html

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