EDAboard.com | EDAboard.de | EDAboard.co.uk | WTWH Media

Refrigerator current load

Ask a question - edaboard.com

elektroda.net NewsGroups Forum Index - Repair Electronics - Refrigerator current load

Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next

Tom Del Rosso
Guest

Tue Feb 25, 2020 5:45 pm   



amdx wrote:
Quote:
On 1/12/2020 10:47 PM, Tom Del Rosso wrote:
Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Sun, 12 Jan 2020 18:43:28 -0500, "Tom Del Rosso"
fizzbintuesday_at_that-google-mail-domain.com> wrote:

I expect a large fridge to draw around 5 amps, but my clamp
transformer (on one wire of a broken-out extension cord of course)
and Fluke together say 830ma when the thing is running. Does that
seem wrong? It measures the toaster oven at 9.1A and the fridge
light at 300ma.

Make and model of the fridge? 117VAC or 240VAC? I can possibly
lookup the expected current drain online and do a sanity check. I
found a few charts that claim a full size refrigerator/freezer
should draw about 700 watts. 5A sounds about right:

Frigidaire FFHT1621TS1


117VAC * 5A = 585 VA
No clue on the PF (power factor) so I'll use VA instead of watts.

If you're seeing only 0.83A, then you're looking at the current
drawn by a fan or light bulb in the fridge, not the compressor. Try
lowering the temperature setting of the thermostat temporarily to
force the compressor to start.

Tthat 800ma is when it's making noise. It's less than 10ma the rest
of the time. The other loads are toaster and microwave so they draw
zero most of the time.

The most unfortunate thing is that all the outlets in the kitchen
seem to be on one breaker. I say so because there is a 3 volt drop
on any outlet when the toaster oven draws 9 amps. In another room
it drops 100mv or less.



I'd have a little concern about that 3v drop. It could be just a
long run of wire, (I doubt it) or a poor connection somewhere between,
starting at the box and going to the outlet.
Warning I once connected several freezers to an outlet, in an outdoor
porch. It was fine for years and then one day a got a burning smell.
Tried and tried to sniff it out, but it went a way. A couple days
later I smelled it again. I traced behind a TV, I grabbed the TV plug
and it was very hot. I moved everything out, removed a panel from the
wall. Upon inspection the the outlet crumbled to pieces. The wire
from the Circuit breaker box terminated at the outlet, then another
wire was connected to the box that went to the outdoor outlet. A poor
connection to the box, heated up every time the freezers ran. I was
lucky it didn't start a fire. I installed 220v to a sub box and
divided that for my freezers after that.

Mikek


Yeah, thanks, but I realize that. It's the landlord's fault if the
building burns. I have my own insurance. His might be cancelled.

pfjw@aol.com
Guest

Tue Feb 25, 2020 6:45 pm   



a) If the landlord provides wiring that is/was to-code when installed.
b) If the code states that a refrigerator should be on a dedicated circuit.
c) If the tenant attempts to go around the original and proper installation and/or add additional load than just the refrigerator.

It is unlikely the landlord will get dinged 'if the building burns' - as the lawyers will go through the first-cause (you) first.

Line drop: is it 3 volts under load? Is it 3 volts in general? What gauge is the wire, and how long is the run? And are there any splices along that run? As an example, we have a 12-gauge, 20 A dedicated circuit to our refrigerator that is about 75' in developed length, no splices. Just for giggles, we have 118 V at the panel, line-to-ground, and 117 V at the receptacle, unloaded. And within the limits of measurement error anyway.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

amdx
Guest

Tue Feb 25, 2020 7:45 pm   



On 2/25/2020 10:38 AM, Tom Del Rosso wrote:
Quote:
amdx wrote:
On 1/12/2020 10:47 PM, Tom Del Rosso wrote:
Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Sun, 12 Jan 2020 18:43:28 -0500, "Tom Del Rosso"
fizzbintuesday_at_that-google-mail-domain.com> wrote:

I expect a large fridge to draw around 5 amps, but my clamp
transformer (on one wire of a broken-out extension cord of course)
and Fluke together say 830ma when the thing is running. Does that
seem wrong? It measures the toaster oven at 9.1A and the fridge
light at 300ma.

Make and model of the fridge? 117VAC or 240VAC? I can possibly
lookup the expected current drain online and do a sanity check. I
found a few charts that claim a full size refrigerator/freezer
should draw about 700 watts. 5A sounds about right:

Frigidaire FFHT1621TS1


117VAC * 5A = 585 VA
No clue on the PF (power factor) so I'll use VA instead of watts.

If you're seeing only 0.83A, then you're looking at the current
drawn by a fan or light bulb in the fridge, not the compressor. Try
lowering the temperature setting of the thermostat temporarily to
force the compressor to start.

Tthat 800ma is when it's making noise. It's less than 10ma the rest
of the time. The other loads are toaster and microwave so they draw
zero most of the time.

The most unfortunate thing is that all the outlets in the kitchen
seem to be on one breaker. I say so because there is a 3 volt drop
on any outlet when the toaster oven draws 9 amps. In another room
it drops 100mv or less.



I'd have a little concern about that 3v drop. It could be just a
long run of wire, (I doubt it) or a poor connection somewhere between,
starting at the box and going to the outlet.
Warning I once connected several freezers to an outlet, in an outdoor
porch. It was fine for years and then one day a got a burning smell.
Tried and tried to sniff it out, but it went a way. A couple days
later I smelled it again. I traced behind a TV, I grabbed the TV plug
and it was very hot. I moved everything out, removed a panel from the
wall. Upon inspection the the outlet crumbled to pieces. The wire
from the Circuit breaker box terminated at the outlet, then another
wire was connected to the box that went to the outdoor outlet. A poor
connection to the box, heated up every time the freezers ran. I was
lucky it didn't start a fire. I installed 220v to a sub box and
divided that for my freezers after that.

Mikek

Yeah, thanks, but I realize that. It's the landlord's fault if the
building burns. I have my own insurance. His might be cancelled.



Hope you're not sleeping if a fire starts!
My problem really shook me, because of the way the wood was scorched
inside the wall.
If we had a hot night when the freezers had to run, a fire could have
happened. It's a 45 year old house, hmm, it was only 20 years old when I
moved in.
Mikek

pfjw@aol.com
Guest

Tue Feb 25, 2020 8:45 pm   



Developed length: The total amount of wire in the run. Not the direct distance between the panel and the receptacle, which is less than 60 feet.

Standard Hot/Neutral/Ground 12/2 Romex.
And, as the Neutral and the Ground are bonded to the same buss-bar, the voltages are the same.

Consider a measuring device (voltmeter) - and it has a margin of error.
Consider that at the panel, it is measuring at the bottom of the 118 V level, and at the receptacle, at the top of the 117 V level. That is what I mean by measurement error.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

amdx
Guest

Tue Feb 25, 2020 8:45 pm   



On 2/25/2020 11:20 AM, pfjw_at_aol.com wrote:
Quote:
a) If the landlord provides wiring that is/was to-code when installed.
b) If the code states that a refrigerator should be on a dedicated circuit.
c) If the tenant attempts to go around the original and proper installation and/or add additional load than just the refrigerator.

It is unlikely the landlord will get dinged 'if the building burns' - as the lawyers will go through the first-cause (you) first.

Line drop: is it 3 volts under load? Is it 3 volts in general? What gauge is the wire, and how long is the run? And are there any splices along that run? As an example, we have a 12-gauge, 20 A dedicated circuit to our refrigerator that is about 75' in developed length, no splices. Just for giggles, we have 118 V at the panel, line-to-ground, and 117 V at the receptacle, unloaded. And within the limits of measurement error anyway.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA


With a 10 Meg ohm DVM, That doesn't sound right.
150ft of #12 wire is 0.2382 ohms, add 0.1 ohms for the 4 connections
and you have 0.3382 ohms, you would need 4.2 amps to drop 1 Volt.
Are sure there is nothing else on that line?

Couple clarifications, What do you mean by developed? and
line-to-ground? is it a two wire system?
Line to ground, line to neutral should not be different, But...
Mikek

Tom Del Rosso
Guest

Thu Feb 27, 2020 10:45 am   



pfjw_at_aol.com wrote:
Quote:
a) If the landlord provides wiring that is/was to-code when installed.
b) If the code states that a refrigerator should be on a dedicated
circuit.
c) If the tenant attempts to go around the original and proper
installation and/or add additional load than just the refrigerator.

It is unlikely the landlord will get dinged 'if the building burns' -
as the lawyers will go through the first-cause (you) first.


No idea what you're talking about since I never said it was modified by
me. How did I "cause" a problem by plugging a toaster oven into the
other outlet?

Tom Del Rosso
Guest

Thu Feb 27, 2020 10:45 am   



amdx wrote:
Quote:
On 2/25/2020 10:38 AM, Tom Del Rosso wrote:

Yeah, thanks, but I realize that. It's the landlord's fault if the
building burns. I have my own insurance. His might be cancelled.

Hope you're not sleeping if a fire starts!


I hardly ever use a toaster oven while I'm sleeping. It's the only 9 amp
load I have.

pfjw@aol.com
Guest

Thu Feb 27, 2020 1:45 pm   



Quote:
No idea what you're talking about since I never said it was modified by
me. How did I "cause" a problem by plugging a toaster oven into the
other outlet?


By adding a second load to what should be a dedicated circuit.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

Tom Del Rosso
Guest

Thu Feb 27, 2020 6:45 pm   



pfjw_at_aol.com wrote:
Quote:
No idea what you're talking about since I never said it was modified
by me. How did I "cause" a problem by plugging a toaster oven into
the other outlet?


By adding a second load to what should be a dedicated circuit.


But it is not my fault that it is not a dedicated circuit. Nor am I
required to know whether or not it is. The owner is liable not me.

pfjw@aol.com
Guest

Thu Feb 27, 2020 6:45 pm   



Quote:
But it is not my fault that it is not a dedicated circuit. Nor am I
required to know whether or not it is. The owner is liable not me.


Wrong. Two reasons:

a) Ignorance is not a defense - that is, and has been, "common law" for over 2,000 years. And, yes, "common law" does apply to liability.

b) NEC requires a dedicated outlet for the refrigerator. Ipso-facto, where the refrigerator is plugged in is dedicated. And that receptacle may not be shared per the code. The reasoning may appear circular, but it remains how it would be in a pinch.

When I was doing this for a living (more than 40 years ago) we used simplex receptacles for the refrigerator line. So that down-line idiots did not make that same mistake you might make. That and any other 'dedicated' circuits, with special reference to AC, 240 V Dryer and similar circuits.

https://static.grainger.com/rp/s/is/image/Grainger/53CX77_GC01?$mdmain$

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

Ralph Mowery
Guest

Thu Feb 27, 2020 7:45 pm   



In article <fc01f57a-c842-4675-b2b5-a90a99e56bb1_at_googlegroups.com>,
peterwieck33_at_gmail.com says...
Quote:

b) NEC requires a dedicated outlet for the refrigerator. Ipso-facto, where the refrigerator is plugged in is dedicated. And that receptacle may not be shared per the code. The reasoning may appear circular, but it remains how it would be in a pinch.




Son moved into a house that had the refrigerator on a circuit with
several other outlets in the kitchen. Was even powered from a
receptical that was a ground fault. Found this out one day when he
called and said there was no power on his refrigerator. No breakers
were tripped. I looked around and finally found the GFCI receptical
that was tripped.

Tom Del Rosso
Guest

Thu Feb 27, 2020 7:45 pm   



pfjw_at_aol.com wrote:
Quote:
But it is not my fault that it is not a dedicated circuit. Nor am I
required to know whether or not it is. The owner is liable not me.

Wrong. Two reasons:

a) Ignorance is not a defense - that is, and has been, "common law"
for over 2,000 years. And, yes, "common law" does apply to liability.


That's ignorance of the law, not ignorance of what an electrician did
under someone else's supervision.


Quote:
b) NEC requires a dedicated outlet for the refrigerator. Ipso-facto,
where the refrigerator is plugged in is dedicated. And that
receptacle may not be shared per the code. The reasoning may appear
circular, but it remains how it would be in a pinch.


So you are under the impression that I have something plugged into the
same outlet. I didn't say that. I said it was on the same breaker as
other outlets. There is no way in hell I would be blamed for using
another outlet.

pfjw@aol.com
Guest

Thu Feb 27, 2020 8:45 pm   



Cutting to the chase:

a) You have demonstrated, in a public forum, that you fully understand the situation.
b) You also demonstrate that you understand the code.
c) You also demonstrate that you know that the situation is not up to present code.
d) You also demonstrate that you understand that by plugging in a second large-use device, you are creating a risk, albeit a very small one.

Feigned ignorance will get you nowhere should that risk manifest. You might not like it, but the other principle of assigning liability is called "Last Clear Chance". Which you also demonstrate as having, clearly.

https://dictionary.law.com/Default.aspx?selected=1107

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

Tom Del Rosso
Guest

Thu Feb 27, 2020 8:45 pm   



pfjw_at_aol.com wrote:
Quote:

Feigned ignorance will get you nowhere should that risk manifest. You
might not like it, but the other principle of assigning liability is
called "Last Clear Chance". Which you also demonstrate as having,
clearly.

https://dictionary.law.com/Default.aspx?selected=1107


"could have still avoided the accident by reasonable care in the final
moments"

Which I could not do, since using no other electrical devices is not an
option. And then there are housing regulations that would ensure the
owner is liable.

pfjw@aol.com
Guest

Thu Feb 27, 2020 8:45 pm   



Quote:
Which I could not do, since using no other electrical devices is not an
option. And then there are housing regulations that would ensure the
owner is liable.


Well, in the awful event that you need to test this belief, I hope you survive the event unscathed, and I hope that you are successful should it go to court.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next

elektroda.net NewsGroups Forum Index - Repair Electronics - Refrigerator current load

Ask a question - edaboard.com

Arabic version Bulgarian version Catalan version Czech version Danish version German version Greek version English version Spanish version Finnish version French version Hindi version Croatian version Indonesian version Italian version Hebrew version Japanese version Korean version Lithuanian version Latvian version Dutch version Norwegian version Polish version Portuguese version Romanian version Russian version Slovak version Slovenian version Serbian version Swedish version Tagalog version Ukrainian version Vietnamese version Chinese version Turkish version
EDAboard.com map