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Sylvia Else
Guest

Sun Dec 17, 2017 3:00 am   



If the entire electricity supply for Australia were based on solar
panels and lithium ion batteries, constructing those batteries would
take more than the entire world output of lithium for a year.

Sylvia.

Phil Allison
Guest

Sun Dec 17, 2017 3:11 am   



Sylvia Else wrote:

----------------------
Quote:

If the entire electricity supply for Australia were based on solar
panels and lithium ion batteries, constructing those batteries would
take more than the entire world output of lithium for a year.


** Love to know some of the assumptions used in the calculation of that claim.




..... Phil

Sylvia Else
Guest

Sun Dec 17, 2017 3:14 am   



On 17/12/2017 12:11 PM, Phil Allison wrote:
Quote:
Sylvia Else wrote:

----------------------

If the entire electricity supply for Australia were based on solar
panels and lithium ion batteries, constructing those batteries would
take more than the entire world output of lithium for a year.


** Love to know some of the assumptions used in the calculation of that claim.




.... Phil


Per-capita electricity consumption in Australia.
Population of Australia.
6 hours per day solar generation.
25 grams of lithium for 300 Wh.
World output of lithium.

Sylvia.

Trevor Wilson
Guest

Sun Dec 17, 2017 4:56 am   



On 17/12/2017 12:00 PM, Sylvia Else wrote:
Quote:
If the entire electricity supply for Australia were based on solar
panels and lithium ion batteries, constructing those batteries would
take more than the entire world output of lithium for a year.

Sylvia.


**What's your point? There are a couple of false assumptions in your
construction:

* Building such a Li-Ion battery storage system for Australia, would
take MUCH longer than one year to construct.
* New and far more interesting battery technologies are under
development right now. By the time any decisions to adopt wide-scale
battery storage, it is likely those new battery technologies will be
mature enough to adopt.
* It is not necessary to store all the electricity generated, as
consumption is always occurring.
* There are more interesting forms of renewable energy generation. Like
Solar/thermal, hot rocks, tidal, wind and several others. Solar/thermal,
for instance, reduces the need for battery storage dramatically.


--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au

Sylvia Else
Guest

Sun Dec 17, 2017 5:17 am   



On 17/12/2017 1:56 PM, Trevor Wilson wrote:
Quote:
On 17/12/2017 12:00 PM, Sylvia Else wrote:
If the entire electricity supply for Australia were based on solar
panels and lithium ion batteries, constructing those batteries would
take more than the entire world output of lithium for a year.

Sylvia.

**What's your point? There are a couple of false assumptions in your
construction:

* Building such a Li-Ion battery storage system for Australia, would
take MUCH longer than one year to construct.


It probably would. Indeed, it would probably take so long that the
earlier parts would reach the end of their life before the task was
finished.

Quote:
* New and far more interesting battery technologies are under
development right now.


Yes. They're underdevelopment. They're not available now.

By the time any decisions to adopt wide-scale
Quote:
battery storage, it is likely those new battery technologies will be
mature enough to adopt.
* It is not necessary to store all the electricity generated, as
consumption is always occurring.


I didn't assume that. I assumed that the energy to be stored is the
energy required during the 18 hours a day that panels are not generating.

> * There are more interesting forms of renewable energy generation.

I dare say. That was not the point I was making.

Sylvia.

Trevor Wilson
Guest

Sun Dec 17, 2017 8:23 am   



On 17/12/2017 2:17 PM, Sylvia Else wrote:
Quote:
On 17/12/2017 1:56 PM, Trevor Wilson wrote:
On 17/12/2017 12:00 PM, Sylvia Else wrote:
If the entire electricity supply for Australia were based on solar
panels and lithium ion batteries, constructing those batteries would
take more than the entire world output of lithium for a year.

Sylvia.

**What's your point? There are a couple of false assumptions in your
construction:

* Building such a Li-Ion battery storage system for Australia, would
take MUCH longer than one year to construct.

It probably would. Indeed, it would probably take so long that the
earlier parts would reach the end of their life before the task was
finished.

* New and far more interesting battery technologies are under
development right now.

Yes. They're underdevelopment. They're not available now.


**It is safe to assume that Li-Ion batteries are not the ultimate.

Quote:

 By the time any decisions to adopt wide-scale
battery storage, it is likely those new battery technologies will be
mature enough to adopt.
* It is not necessary to store all the electricity generated, as
consumption is always occurring.

I didn't assume that. I assumed that the energy to be stored is the
energy required during the 18 hours a day that panels are not generating.

* There are more interesting forms of renewable energy generation.

I dare say. That was not the point I was making.

Sylvia.


**It's a pretty arbitrary point, given the fact that there are other
forms of renewable energy available.

--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au

news16
Guest

Sun Dec 17, 2017 8:29 am   



On Sun, 17 Dec 2017 12:00:15 +1100, Sylvia Else wrote:

Quote:
If the entire electricity supply for Australia were based on solar
panels and lithium ion batteries, constructing those batteries would
take more than the entire world output of lithium for a year.

Sylvia.


Source?
Lithium isn't the problem, it is stuff lie cobalt and the other
alternatives. For Lithium, Bolivia stands ready.

news16
Guest

Sun Dec 17, 2017 8:32 am   



On Sun, 17 Dec 2017 12:14:18 +1100, Sylvia Else wrote:

Quote:
On 17/12/2017 12:11 PM, Phil Allison wrote:
Sylvia Else wrote:

----------------------

If the entire electricity supply for Australia were based on solar
panels and lithium ion batteries, constructing those batteries would
take more than the entire world output of lithium for a year.


** Love to know some of the assumptions used in the calculation of that
claim.




.... Phil


Per-capita electricity consumption in Australia.
Population of Australia.
6 hours per day solar generation.
25 grams of lithium for 300 Wh.
World output of lithium.


Balanced by time to produce Vs ability for new sources the come online.
hint, it is only a matter of laying some extras rail;way tracks and
shipping in the mining equipment.
> Sylvia.

news16
Guest

Sun Dec 17, 2017 8:33 am   



On Sun, 17 Dec 2017 13:56:03 +1100, Trevor Wilson wrote:


Quote:
* There are more interesting forms of renewable energy generation. Like
Solar/thermal, hot rocks, tidal, wind and several others. Solar/thermal,
for instance, reduces the need for battery storage dramatically.


Not to forget molten salts batteries which exist now.

news16
Guest

Sun Dec 17, 2017 8:35 am   



On Sun, 17 Dec 2017 14:17:02 +1100, Sylvia Else wrote:

Quote:
On 17/12/2017 1:56 PM, Trevor Wilson wrote:
On 17/12/2017 12:00 PM, Sylvia Else wrote:


* New and far more interesting battery technologies are under
development right now.

Yes. They're underdevelopment. They're not available now.

By the time any decisions to adopt wide-scale
battery storage, it is likely those new battery technologies will be
mature enough to adopt.
* It is not necessary to store all the electricity generated, as
consumption is always occurring.

I didn't assume that. I assumed that the energy to be stored is the
energy required during the 18 hours a day that panels are not
generating.

* There are more interesting forms of renewable energy generation.

I dare say. That was not the point I was making.

And totally ignoring another major form of renewable direction that can
easily be involved. I fart in your general direction.

Sylvia Else
Guest

Sun Dec 17, 2017 8:37 am   



On 17/12/2017 5:32 PM, news16 wrote:
Quote:
On Sun, 17 Dec 2017 12:14:18 +1100, Sylvia Else wrote:

On 17/12/2017 12:11 PM, Phil Allison wrote:
Sylvia Else wrote:

----------------------

If the entire electricity supply for Australia were based on solar
panels and lithium ion batteries, constructing those batteries would
take more than the entire world output of lithium for a year.


** Love to know some of the assumptions used in the calculation of that
claim.




.... Phil


Per-capita electricity consumption in Australia.
Population of Australia.
6 hours per day solar generation.
25 grams of lithium for 300 Wh.
World output of lithium.


Balanced by time to produce Vs ability for new sources the come online.
hint, it is only a matter of laying some extras rail;way tracks and
shipping in the mining equipment.
Sylvia.


If the entire world did this, it would account for one quarter of the
known reserves of lithium. Even with recovery of lithium from worn out
batteries (not currently economic), it doesn't seem sustainable.

Sylvia.

Sylvia Else
Guest

Sun Dec 17, 2017 8:41 am   



On 17/12/2017 5:29 PM, news16 wrote:
Quote:
On Sun, 17 Dec 2017 12:00:15 +1100, Sylvia Else wrote:

If the entire electricity supply for Australia were based on solar
panels and lithium ion batteries, constructing those batteries would
take more than the entire world output of lithium for a year.

Sylvia.

Source?


My own calculations of the required lithium versus documented world
production.

Quote:
Lithium isn't the problem, it is stuff lie cobalt and the other
alternatives. For Lithium, Bolivia stands ready.


My calculation was prompted by suggestions in another forum that
Australia move to a totally solar + battery solution. To my mind, the
numbers[*] indicate that it's totally impractical.

Sylvia

[*] Which are actually very conservative, because they make no allowance
for extended periods of low solar production.

news16
Guest

Sun Dec 17, 2017 1:31 pm   



On Sun, 17 Dec 2017 17:37:52 +1100, Sylvia Else wrote:

Quote:
On 17/12/2017 5:32 PM, news16 wrote:
On Sun, 17 Dec 2017 12:14:18 +1100, Sylvia Else wrote:


Balanced by time to produce Vs ability for new sources the come online.
hint, it is only a matter of laying some extras rail;way tracks and
shipping in the mining equipment.
Sylvia.


If the entire world did this, it would account for one quarter of the
known reserves of lithium.


So you agree there is plednty of lithium.

Quote:
Even with recovery of lithium from worn out
batteries (not currently economic), it doesn't seem sustainable.

Sylvia.


news16
Guest

Sun Dec 17, 2017 1:35 pm   



On Sun, 17 Dec 2017 17:41:37 +1100, Sylvia Else wrote:

Quote:
On 17/12/2017 5:29 PM, news16 wrote:
On Sun, 17 Dec 2017 12:00:15 +1100, Sylvia Else wrote:

If the entire electricity supply for Australia were based on solar
panels and lithium ion batteries, constructing those batteries would
take more than the entire world output of lithium for a year.

Sylvia.

Source?

My own calculations of the required lithium versus documented world
production.


World production tends to rise when price paid increases.

Quote:
Lithium isn't the problem, it is stuff lie cobalt and the other
alternatives. For Lithium, Bolivia stands ready.


My calculation was prompted by suggestions in another forum that
Australia move to a totally solar + battery solution. To my mind, the
numbers[*] indicate that it's totally impractical.

Lies, damm lies and statistics.


Sylvia Else
Guest

Mon Dec 18, 2017 12:12 am   



On 17/12/2017 10:31 PM, news16 wrote:
Quote:
On Sun, 17 Dec 2017 17:37:52 +1100, Sylvia Else wrote:

On 17/12/2017 5:32 PM, news16 wrote:
On Sun, 17 Dec 2017 12:14:18 +1100, Sylvia Else wrote:


Balanced by time to produce Vs ability for new sources the come online.
hint, it is only a matter of laying some extras rail;way tracks and
shipping in the mining equipment.
Sylvia.


If the entire world did this, it would account for one quarter of the
known reserves of lithium.

So you agree there is plednty of lithium.


That rather depends on your meaning of "plenty". Australia is not the
only country moving away from fossil fuels. It's not completely beyond
the bounds of possibility that all the know reserves would be consumed
within a few generations.

Quote:

Even with recovery of lithium from worn out
batteries (not currently economic), it doesn't seem sustainable.

Sylvia.

Sylvia.


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