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Uncle Peter
Guest

Thu Apr 24, 2014 7:13 pm   



On Thu, 24 Apr 2014 13:59:28 +0100, Daniel <dxmm_at_albury.nospam.net.au> wrote:

Quote:
On 24/04/14 04:06, Uncle Peter wrote:
On Wed, 23 Apr 2014 13:20:40 +0100, Daniel <dxmm_at_albury.nospam.net.au
wrote:

On 23/04/14 07:01, Uncle Peter wrote:
On Tue, 22 Apr 2014 11:00:36 +0100, Daniel <dxmm_at_albury.nospam.net.au
wrote:

On 22/04/14 04:26, Uncle Peter wrote:
snip


snip

snip


snip

What part of the world are you from?? In some parts of the world, the
first thing people might think when they hear "PFC" would be "Private
First Class"!!

Only if they're military.


snip

No, in a Switched Mode Power Supply, as the load varies, it is
*Switched
On* for more of less of the Alternating Cycle. If the supply's output
(Current/Voltage) is falling below the required (Current/Voltage), the
Switching element/transistor is switched on for more of the input
cycle,
not the input voltage!!

I see. So this is seperate from the yellow one connected across the
mains input?

Yes, the "yellow one connected across the mains input" is a bridge
rectifier, which converts the AC Sinewave input into single polarity
pulses at twice the mains supply frequency.

No it isn't, I mean these ones:
http://www.o-digital.com/uploads/2179/2184-1/Capacitor_X2_358.jpg

Sorry, my mistake.

snip

Snip

snip
Wacko!!

It hasn't got food in it.

So what's it doing "On", apart from wasting energy??

Keeping water cool.

How much water, and for what purpose??


Three quarters of a tonne. I like cold baths.

--
Today's woman puts on wigs, fake eyelashes, false fingernails, sixteen pounds of assorted make-up/shadows/blushes/creams, living bras, various pads that would make a linebacker envious, has implants and assorted other surgeries, then complains that she cannot find a "real" man.

Daniel
Guest

Fri Apr 25, 2014 4:01 pm   



On 24/04/14 23:13, Uncle Peter wrote:
Quote:
On Thu, 24 Apr 2014 13:59:28 +0100, Daniel <dxmm_at_albury.nospam.net.au
wrote:

On 24/04/14 04:06, Uncle Peter wrote:
On Wed, 23 Apr 2014 13:20:40 +0100, Daniel <dxmm_at_albury.nospam.net.au
wrote:

snip

Wacko!!

It hasn't got food in it.

So what's it doing "On", apart from wasting energy??

Keeping water cool.

How much water, and for what purpose??

Three quarters of a tonne. I like cold baths.


Are you Scandinavian or something?? Straight from Sauna into Cold water!!

Daniel

Uncle Peter
Guest

Fri Apr 25, 2014 7:27 pm   



On Fri, 25 Apr 2014 11:01:28 +0100, Daniel <dxmm_at_albury.nospam.net.au> wrote:

Quote:
On 24/04/14 23:13, Uncle Peter wrote:
On Thu, 24 Apr 2014 13:59:28 +0100, Daniel <dxmm_at_albury.nospam.net.au
wrote:

On 24/04/14 04:06, Uncle Peter wrote:
On Wed, 23 Apr 2014 13:20:40 +0100, Daniel <dxmm_at_albury.nospam.net.au
wrote:

snip

snip
So what's it doing "On", apart from wasting energy??

Keeping water cool.

How much water, and for what purpose??

Three quarters of a tonne. I like cold baths.

Are you Scandinavian or something?? Straight from Sauna into Cold water!!


Without the sauna. If you read up on it it's very good for you. It increases your immune system, it makes you feel full of energy for the next few days, and it burns off a shitload of calories. I sit in it while watching telly.

--
I used to not get along with my mother-in-law, but over the last few
months, I've developed quite an attachment for her. It goes over her
head, and a strap comes down under her chin to keep her mouth shut.

Ian Field
Guest

Tue May 20, 2014 2:53 am   



"Daniel" <dxmm_at_albury.nospam.net.au> wrote in message
news:vi84v.62218$%x6.40968_at_fx16.iad...
Quote:
On 17/04/14 23:46, Uncle Peter wrote:
On Thu, 17 Apr 2014 13:50:32 +0100, Daniel <dxmm_at_albury.nospam.net.au
wrote:

On 17/04/14 10:07, Uncle Peter wrote:
Can someone confirm that power factor is NOT taken into consideration
for domestic supplies? I have a feeling it isn't, but I can't find any
information on the internet. If it matters, it's a modern (<5 years
old) electronic meter I have. The power factor in my house is an
average of 0.7 so depending if it's charged for or not, my bill could
be
completely different.

When I last dealt with this, power generator companies "assumed" there
would be an average power factor and set up their generators to handle
that. Your individual house (or, probably, even a small factory) would
not cause much variation in that power factor, considering the
generators are probably supplying hundreds of thousands of homes at the
same time!!

That won't apply to switched mode power supplies clipping off the peaks
though.

Wouldn't cause a very big blip in the grander scheme of things.

And what SMPS clips off the peaks?? Usually they vary the switch on point
in the A.C. waveform.


Between each peak the reservoir cap sags a little, each peak tops it up
againd and passes a large blip of current doing so.

AFAIK, current regs require a PFC front end on any switcher over 50W.

In the 80s there were hundreds of thousands of TVs with half wave thyristor
buck regulators - the generating companies weren't happy.

Ian Field
Guest

Tue May 20, 2014 3:03 am   



"Uncle Peter" <no_at_spam.com> wrote in message
news:op.xempwwwsswtmtb_at_red.lan...
Quote:
On Sun, 20 Apr 2014 12:17:45 +0100, Daniel <dxmm_at_albury.nospam.net.au
wrote:

On 18/04/14 22:45, Uncle Peter wrote:
On Fri, 18 Apr 2014 12:48:36 +0100, Daniel <dxmm_at_albury.nospam.net.au
wrote:

On 17/04/14 23:46, Uncle Peter wrote:
On Thu, 17 Apr 2014 13:50:32 +0100, Daniel <dxmm_at_albury.nospam.net.au
wrote:

On 17/04/14 10:07, Uncle Peter wrote:

When I last dealt with this, power generator companies "assumed"
there
would be an average power factor and set up their generators to
handle
that. Your individual house (or, probably, even a small factory)
would
not cause much variation in that power factor, considering the
generators are probably supplying hundreds of thousands of homes at
the
same time!!

That won't apply to switched mode power supplies clipping off the
peaks
though.

Wouldn't cause a very big blip in the grander scheme of things.

And what SMPS clips off the peaks?? Usually they vary the switch on
point in the A.C. waveform.

You can get power supplies with "active PFC" which is presumably what
you just described. However the cheap ones have "passive PFC" or no
PFC, so presumably they just top up the bulk capacitors at the peak of
each waveform. A basic transformer and rectifier will do the same.

What's "PFC" when it's at home?? Power Factor Correction maybe!!

I know that.

To the mains supply, most things look like Inductors, which means the
voltage waveform and the current waveforms are not in phase. Power
Factor Correction simple means that capacitors are switched in to
counter-act the Inductance, so the Voltage and Current are more nearly
in phase.

And at different power level draws from the output of the power supply,
presumably a different capacitance is ended to correct it. Active PFC
probably changes it accordingly. Or adjusts the other type of power
factor which you haven't mentioned - wave clipping.


Active PFC is basically a flyback boost regulator with no reservoir cap
between it and the bridge rectifier.

With no reservoir cap, there's no blips on the peaks and the switching
pulses current amplitude more or less track the mains cycle amplitude.

There is still a main reservoir cap, but its after the PFC, and usually
rated 450V rather than the more usual 385V or so.

The passive one I saw was nothing more than a bloody great iron cored choke
on the AC in to the bridge rectifier.

Ian Field
Guest

Tue May 20, 2014 3:06 am   



"Daniel" <dxmm_at_albury.nospam.net.au> wrote in message
news:c5r5v.119995$nm4.52762_at_fx27.iad...
Quote:
On 22/04/14 04:26, Uncle Peter wrote:
On Mon, 21 Apr 2014 12:22:39 +0100, Daniel <dxmm_at_albury.nospam.net.au
wrote:

On 21/04/14 05:03, Uncle Peter wrote:
On Sun, 20 Apr 2014 12:17:45 +0100, Daniel <dxmm_at_albury.nospam.net.au
wrote:

On 18/04/14 22:45, Uncle Peter wrote:
On Fri, 18 Apr 2014 12:48:36 +0100, Daniel
dxmm_at_albury.nospam.net.au
wrote:

On 17/04/14 23:46, Uncle Peter wrote:



Wouldn't cause a very big blip in the grander scheme of things.

And what SMPS clips off the peaks?? Usually they vary the switch on
point in the A.C. waveform.

You can get power supplies with "active PFC" which is presumably what
you just described. However the cheap ones have "passive PFC" or no
PFC, so presumably they just top up the bulk capacitors at the peak
of
each waveform. A basic transformer and rectifier will do the same.

What's "PFC" when it's at home?? Power Factor Correction maybe!!

I know that.

But *I* didn't, which is why I asked "What's "PFC" when it's at home??"

When you immediately answered yourself, with two shriek marks, I assumed
you were telling me.

What part of the world are you from?? In some parts of the world, the
first thing people might think when they hear "PFC" would be "Private
First Class"!!

To the mains supply, most things look like Inductors, which means the
voltage waveform and the current waveforms are not in phase. Power
Factor Correction simple means that capacitors are switched in to
counter-act the Inductance, so the Voltage and Current are more nearly
in phase.

And at different power level draws from the output of the power supply,
presumably a different capacitance is ended to correct it. Active PFC
probably changes it accordingly. Or adjusts the other type of power
factor which you haven't mentioned - wave clipping.

I'm guessing just one, very big, capacitor which can handle the
filtering task for all loads up to the Power Supply's rating.

But surely if it's not adjusted, then it's overcompensating when the
supply is not fully loaded.

No, in a Switched Mode Power Supply, as the load varies, it is *Switched
On* for more of less of the Alternating Cycle. If the supply's output
(Current/Voltage) is falling below the required (Current/Voltage), the
Switching element/transistor is switched on for more of the input cycle,
not the input voltage!!


You must be thinking of the thyristor buck regulators in 80s colour tellies.

Daniel
Guest

Tue May 20, 2014 4:31 pm   



On 20/05/14 07:06, Ian Field wrote:
Quote:


"Daniel" <dxmm_at_albury.nospam.net.au> wrote in message
news:c5r5v.119995$nm4.52762_at_fx27.iad...
On 22/04/14 04:26, Uncle Peter wrote:
On Mon, 21 Apr 2014 12:22:39 +0100, Daniel <dxmm_at_albury.nospam.net.au
wrote:


<Snip>

Quote:
But surely if it's not adjusted, then it's overcompensating when the
supply is not fully loaded.

No, in a Switched Mode Power Supply, as the load varies, it is
*Switched On* for more of less of the Alternating Cycle. If the
supply's output (Current/Voltage) is falling below the required
(Current/Voltage), the Switching element/transistor is switched on for
more of the input cycle, not the input voltage!!

You must be thinking of the thyristor buck regulators in 80s colour
tellies.


T.V.'s were never my thing, so when you say "thyristor buck regulators",
I say, "What you talking'bout, Willis?!?!" (from American T.V. sit-com
from about the eighties!!)

Daniel

Daniel
Guest

Tue May 20, 2014 5:10 pm   



On 20/05/14 06:53, Ian Field wrote:
Quote:


"Daniel" <dxmm_at_albury.nospam.net.au> wrote in message
news:vi84v.62218$%x6.40968_at_fx16.iad...
On 17/04/14 23:46, Uncle Peter wrote:
On Thu, 17 Apr 2014 13:50:32 +0100, Daniel <dxmm_at_albury.nospam.net.au
wrote:

On 17/04/14 10:07, Uncle Peter wrote:
Can someone confirm that power factor is NOT taken into consideration
for domestic supplies? I have a feeling it isn't, but I can't find
any
information on the internet. If it matters, it's a modern (<5 years
old) electronic meter I have. The power factor in my house is an
average of 0.7 so depending if it's charged for or not, my bill
could be
completely different.

When I last dealt with this, power generator companies "assumed" there
would be an average power factor and set up their generators to handle
that. Your individual house (or, probably, even a small factory) would
not cause much variation in that power factor, considering the
generators are probably supplying hundreds of thousands of homes at the
same time!!

That won't apply to switched mode power supplies clipping off the peaks
though.

Wouldn't cause a very big blip in the grander scheme of things.

And what SMPS clips off the peaks?? Usually they vary the switch on
point in the A.C. waveform.

Between each peak the reservoir cap sags a little, each peak tops it up
againd and passes a large blip of current doing so.


Yeap, but the transformer Secondary's peak voltage must exceed the
cap's voltage to then "top-up" the capacitor.

> AFAIK, current regs require a PFC front end on any switcher over 50W.

Don't know!! The impression I got was that domestic mains supplies PF
varied reasonable as it was, due to domestic fridges, fluoro's, T.V.'s,
etc, switching on and off at different times, that the major power
suppliers did not worry about the domestic situation .... but in
industrial situations, yes, the major power suppliers could/would
require PF correction.

Quote:
In the 80s there were hundreds of thousands of TVs with half wave
thyristor buck regulators - the generating companies weren't happy.


Daniel

Uncle Peter
Guest

Tue May 20, 2014 8:35 pm   



On Tue, 20 May 2014 12:10:49 +0100, Daniel <dxmm_at_albury.nospam.net.au> wrote:

Quote:
On 20/05/14 06:53, Ian Field wrote:


"Daniel" <dxmm_at_albury.nospam.net.au> wrote in message
news:vi84v.62218$%x6.40968_at_fx16.iad...
On 17/04/14 23:46, Uncle Peter wrote:
On Thu, 17 Apr 2014 13:50:32 +0100, Daniel <dxmm_at_albury.nospam.net.au
wrote:

On 17/04/14 10:07, Uncle Peter wrote:

When I last dealt with this, power generator companies "assumed" there
would be an average power factor and set up their generators to handle
that. Your individual house (or, probably, even a small factory) would
not cause much variation in that power factor, considering the
generators are probably supplying hundreds of thousands of homes at the
same time!!

That won't apply to switched mode power supplies clipping off the peaks
though.

Wouldn't cause a very big blip in the grander scheme of things.

And what SMPS clips off the peaks?? Usually they vary the switch on
point in the A.C. waveform.

Between each peak the reservoir cap sags a little, each peak tops it up
againd and passes a large blip of current doing so.

Yeap, but the transformer Secondary's peak voltage must exceed the
cap's voltage to then "top-up" the capacitor.

AFAIK, current regs require a PFC front end on any switcher over 50W.

Don't know!! The impression I got was that domestic mains supplies PF
varied reasonable as it was, due to domestic fridges, fluoro's, T.V.'s,
etc, switching on and off at different times, that the major power
suppliers did not worry about the domestic situation .... but in
industrial situations, yes, the major power suppliers could/would
require PF correction.


Inductive and capacitive cancel each other out in a street. You can't cancel out clipping.


--
There are 2 kinds of people in this world. Those that want to get ahead, and those that just want to get head.

Ian Field
Guest

Tue May 20, 2014 10:17 pm   



"Daniel" <dxmm_at_albury.nospam.net.au> wrote in message
news:saGev.2055562$pa5.723594_at_fx23.iad...
Quote:
On 20/05/14 07:06, Ian Field wrote:


"Daniel" <dxmm_at_albury.nospam.net.au> wrote in message
news:c5r5v.119995$nm4.52762_at_fx27.iad...
On 22/04/14 04:26, Uncle Peter wrote:
On Mon, 21 Apr 2014 12:22:39 +0100, Daniel <dxmm_at_albury.nospam.net.au
wrote:

Snip

But surely if it's not adjusted, then it's overcompensating when the
supply is not fully loaded.

No, in a Switched Mode Power Supply, as the load varies, it is
*Switched On* for more of less of the Alternating Cycle. If the
supply's output (Current/Voltage) is falling below the required
(Current/Voltage), the Switching element/transistor is switched on for
more of the input cycle, not the input voltage!!

You must be thinking of the thyristor buck regulators in 80s colour
tellies.

T.V.'s were never my thing, so when you say "thyristor buck regulators", I
say, "What you talking'bout, Willis?!?!" (from American T.V. sit-com from
about the eighties!!)


I'm beginning to get the impression that trying to explain it to you would
be tedious and futile.

Ian Field
Guest

Tue May 20, 2014 10:21 pm   



"Uncle Peter" <no_at_spam.com> wrote in message
news:op.xf5xhtkzswtmtb_at_red.lan...
Quote:
On Tue, 20 May 2014 12:10:49 +0100, Daniel <dxmm_at_albury.nospam.net.au
wrote:

On 20/05/14 06:53, Ian Field wrote:


"Daniel" <dxmm_at_albury.nospam.net.au> wrote in message
news:vi84v.62218$%x6.40968_at_fx16.iad...
On 17/04/14 23:46, Uncle Peter wrote:
On Thu, 17 Apr 2014 13:50:32 +0100, Daniel <dxmm_at_albury.nospam.net.au
wrote:

On 17/04/14 10:07, Uncle Peter wrote:

When I last dealt with this, power generator companies "assumed"
there
would be an average power factor and set up their generators to
handle
that. Your individual house (or, probably, even a small factory)
would
not cause much variation in that power factor, considering the
generators are probably supplying hundreds of thousands of homes at
the
same time!!

That won't apply to switched mode power supplies clipping off the
peaks
though.

Wouldn't cause a very big blip in the grander scheme of things.

And what SMPS clips off the peaks?? Usually they vary the switch on
point in the A.C. waveform.

Between each peak the reservoir cap sags a little, each peak tops it up
againd and passes a large blip of current doing so.

Yeap, but the transformer Secondary's peak voltage must exceed the
cap's voltage to then "top-up" the capacitor.

AFAIK, current regs require a PFC front end on any switcher over 50W.

Don't know!! The impression I got was that domestic mains supplies PF
varied reasonable as it was, due to domestic fridges, fluoro's, T.V.'s,
etc, switching on and off at different times, that the major power
suppliers did not worry about the domestic situation .... but in
industrial situations, yes, the major power suppliers could/would
require PF correction.

Inductive and capacitive cancel each other out in a street. You can't
cancel out clipping.


When I put an electronic ballast in the bog luminaire, I left the hefty PFC
capacitor in there to filter spikes.


Guest

Wed May 21, 2014 2:27 am   



Quote:
On Tue, 20 May 2014 12:10:49 +0100, Daniel <dxmm_at_albury.nospam.net.au> wrote:

Don't know!! The impression I got was that domestic mains supplies PF
varied reasonable as it was, due to domestic fridges, fluoro's, T.V.'s,
etc, switching on and off at different times,

They switch on/off during few cycles (allowing for a starting surge) and
run/don't run for many cycles, so the switching on & off only matters for
the overall load. The type of load does matter.

Quote:
that the major power
suppliers did not worry about the domestic situation .... but in
industrial situations, yes, the major power suppliers could/would
require PF correction.

Or they bill appearant power & the major users /want/ PF correction, Note
that if you use a lot of reactive power it adds to the current on the grid
and the power company still has to put in heavier wire, so it does cost
them /something/.

On Tue, 20 May 2014, Uncle Peter wrote:
Quote:
Inductive and capacitive cancel each other out in a street. You can't cancel
out clipping.

But the clipping occurs with a relatively constant phase. It may create a
nasty current waveforms which can be a problem but that's not what power
factor refers to.

Ron

Ian Field
Guest

Wed May 21, 2014 2:38 am   



<colonel_hack_at_yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:alpine.BSF.2.00.1405200925160.13722_at_bunrab...
Quote:

On Tue, 20 May 2014 12:10:49 +0100, Daniel <dxmm_at_albury.nospam.net.au
wrote:

Don't know!! The impression I got was that domestic mains supplies PF
varied reasonable as it was, due to domestic fridges, fluoro's, T.V.'s,
etc, switching on and off at different times,
They switch on/off during few cycles (allowing for a starting surge) and
run/don't run for many cycles, so the switching on & off only matters for
the overall load. The type of load does matter.

that the major power
suppliers did not worry about the domestic situation .... but in
industrial situations, yes, the major power suppliers could/would
require PF correction.
Or they bill appearant power & the major users /want/ PF correction, Note
that if you use a lot of reactive power it adds to the current on the grid
and the power company still has to put in heavier wire, so it does cost
them /something/.

On Tue, 20 May 2014, Uncle Peter wrote:
Inductive and capacitive cancel each other out in a street. You can't
cancel out clipping.
But the clipping occurs with a relatively constant phase. It may create a
nasty current waveforms which can be a problem but that's not what power
factor refers to.


Its not power factor as I understood it to be, but it appears to have become
trendy to refer to any AC current waveform distortion as a PF issue.

In any event; the circuitry to eliminate the current blips as the rectifier
tops up the reservoir has become generally referred to as power factor
correction.

Daniel
Guest

Wed May 21, 2014 6:22 pm   



On 21/05/14 02:17, Ian Field wrote:
Quote:


"Daniel" <dxmm_at_albury.nospam.net.au> wrote in message
news:saGev.2055562$pa5.723594_at_fx23.iad...
On 20/05/14 07:06, Ian Field wrote:


"Daniel" <dxmm_at_albury.nospam.net.au> wrote in message
news:c5r5v.119995$nm4.52762_at_fx27.iad...
On 22/04/14 04:26, Uncle Peter wrote:
On Mon, 21 Apr 2014 12:22:39 +0100, Daniel <dxmm_at_albury.nospam.net.au
wrote:

Snip

But surely if it's not adjusted, then it's overcompensating when the
supply is not fully loaded.

No, in a Switched Mode Power Supply, as the load varies, it is
*Switched On* for more of less of the Alternating Cycle. If the
supply's output (Current/Voltage) is falling below the required
(Current/Voltage), the Switching element/transistor is switched on for
more of the input cycle, not the input voltage!!

You must be thinking of the thyristor buck regulators in 80s colour
tellies.

T.V.'s were never my thing, so when you say "thyristor buck
regulators", I say, "What you talking'bout, Willis?!?!" (from American
T.V. sit-com from about the eighties!!)

I'm beginning to get the impression that trying to explain it to you
would be tedious and futile.


See above were I explain the operation of SMPS, which is what Uncle
Peter was originally talking about.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Switch_mode_power_supply

Sorry if you consider it "tedious and futile".

Daniel

Daniel
Guest

Wed May 21, 2014 6:26 pm   



On 21/05/14 02:21, Ian Field wrote:
Quote:


"Uncle Peter" <no_at_spam.com> wrote in message
news:op.xf5xhtkzswtmtb_at_red.lan...
On Tue, 20 May 2014 12:10:49 +0100, Daniel <dxmm_at_albury.nospam.net.au
wrote:

On 20/05/14 06:53, Ian Field wrote:


"Daniel" <dxmm_at_albury.nospam.net.au> wrote in message
news:vi84v.62218$%x6.40968_at_fx16.iad...
On 17/04/14 23:46, Uncle Peter wrote:
On Thu, 17 Apr 2014 13:50:32 +0100, Daniel
dxmm_at_albury.nospam.net.au
wrote:

On 17/04/14 10:07, Uncle Peter wrote:

When I last dealt with this, power generator companies "assumed"
there
would be an average power factor and set up their generators to
handle
that. Your individual house (or, probably, even a small factory)
would
not cause much variation in that power factor, considering the
generators are probably supplying hundreds of thousands of homes
at the
same time!!

That won't apply to switched mode power supplies clipping off the
peaks
though.

Wouldn't cause a very big blip in the grander scheme of things.

And what SMPS clips off the peaks?? Usually they vary the switch on
point in the A.C. waveform.

Between each peak the reservoir cap sags a little, each peak tops it up
againd and passes a large blip of current doing so.

Yeap, but the transformer Secondary's peak voltage must exceed the
cap's voltage to then "top-up" the capacitor.

AFAIK, current regs require a PFC front end on any switcher over 50W.

Don't know!! The impression I got was that domestic mains supplies PF
varied reasonable as it was, due to domestic fridges, fluoro's, T.V.'s,
etc, switching on and off at different times, that the major power
suppliers did not worry about the domestic situation .... but in
industrial situations, yes, the major power suppliers could/would
require PF correction.

Inductive and capacitive cancel each other out in a street. You can't
cancel out clipping.

When I put an electronic ballast in the bog luminaire, I left the hefty
PFC capacitor in there to filter spikes.


Sorry, your bug zapper already had a PFC capacitor *AND* you had to add
"electronic ballast"!!

Something seems wrong there!!!

Daniel

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