PCB multiple designs surcharge

Mon Feb 08, 2010 12:53 am   

Some PCB fab houses charge extra for having multiple designs combined
in a board. They don't have to do any extra work or different
processes than single design. Why do they insist on this extra
charge? Some of them will waive the fee after negotiation, but this
is just unnecessary hassle.

I know this is very common in the industry, but why do they care about
number of customer designs? For identical board area and spec, 4
designs cost 30% more and 8 designs cost 100% more in setup. Are
different versions of the same board consider as different designs?

Mon Feb 08, 2010 12:53 am   

On Sun, 7 Feb 2010 13:53:58 -0800 (PST), the renowned linnix
<me_at_linnix.info-for.us> wrote:



1. Because they can

2. Because they want to discourage people from trying to combine
designs.

3. Because manually combined designs probably cost them a lot
of support time due to duplicated tools or other anomalies.


Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
speff_at_interlog.com Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com

Mon Feb 08, 2010 1:46 am   

On Feb 8, 10:53 am, linnix <m...@linnix.info-for.us> wrote:

If you give them single-panel gerbers and drill info,
I am sure there is no adder.

Simple solution: if you do not like to pay for someone else's time,
do it yourself and save $$$ :)

-jg

Mon Feb 08, 2010 2:14 am   

On Feb 7, 2:46 pm, -jg <jim.granvi...@gmail.com> wrote:

Yes. I am sending a single set of files with matching pads and drills
in all my designs. I use the same set of data for all the designs. I
have 4 projects with 8 versions. I have to declare it as 1 board, or
4 designs (30% more) or 8 designs (100% more).


Yes, I am doing all the work but pay extra for it.

Mon Feb 08, 2010 2:20 am   

On Feb 7, 2:12 pm, Spehro Pefhany <speffS...@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat>
wrote:

It usually just encourage people to find another fab house.


I am not asking them to do that. I am combining them myself with
matching set of tools. If anomalies come up, I would be willing to
pay more. I should not have to pay more because there are separate
functional areas on the board.

Mon Feb 08, 2010 2:28 am   

linnix <me_at_linnix.info-for.us>
wibbled on Monday 08 February 2010 00:18



So does that mean if you created one board with a snap line (where the
functional parts *could* (but needn't) be separated, they would charge more?
Sounds very subjective - and a rather prehistoric and misguided charging
approach. Reminds me of the RIAA/MPAA.

Surely the cost should be based on simple quantifiable entities like:
layers, holes, number of holes sizes (tools), area (of input panel),
finishes (gold, soldermask, silk) and suchlike.

Who cares how many notional designs are on the board?

--
Tim Watts

Managers, politicians and environmentalists: Nature's carbon buffer.

Mon Feb 08, 2010 3:00 am   

On Feb 8, 12:14 pm, linnix <m...@linnix.info-for.us> wrote:

Then I would bleat as well.

Tell them it is one panel, and one project.

They really should not care what paths the copper happens to take!!.

They might charge for more complex routing, but that's usually a
separate charge.

-jg

Mon Feb 08, 2010 3:04 am   

"linnix" <me_at_linnix.info-for.us> wrote in message
news:ba62882b-0f49-46ff-a9d3-af11ca0d2cbd_at_s25g2000prd.googlegroups.com...

Check out BatchPCB (an offshoot of SparkFun Electronics) - they even combine
multiple designs from different customers:

"You submit your PCB design, we add your design to the batch of orders. When
the batch is big enough (usually about 1 week), the batch is set off for
manufacture. 10 days later, the individual boards are received by us. We
then split the orders up and mail your order to you."

http://www.batchpcb.com

We haven't tried them ourselves but would be interested to hear of anybody's
experience.

--
Chris Burrows
CFB Software
Armaide: An ARM Development System for Pascal Programmers
http://www.armaide.com

Mon Feb 08, 2010 3:18 am   

On Feb 7, 4:00 pm, -jg <jim.granvi...@gmail.com> wrote:

In one case, I paid and submitted files. They saw different
functional blocks and wanted to charge more. I told them to cancel
the order and they back off. Another fab's web says that they are
trying to protect jobs by charging more and forcing designers to
submit multiple orders. By killing us (designers), I don't know how
they can create more jobs for them.

Mon Feb 08, 2010 3:34 am   

On Feb 7, 4:28 pm, Tim Watts <t...@dionic.net> wrote:

Yes, some say so explicitly, with or without snap line. Usually, I
can negotiate it out, but I am tried of dealing with such nonsense.
Am I the only one having these experiences?

By the way, I never have design issues with combined designs, except
for money issues.

Mon Feb 08, 2010 4:11 am   

"linnix" <me_at_linnix.info-for.us> wrote in message
news:45d00aad-c084-461c-88b0-7ccd82f31c52_at_s36g2000prh.googlegroups.com...
On Feb 7, 2:12 pm, Spehro Pefhany <speffS...@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat>
wrote:

Because they like to get some extra money. As long as it it is stated before
the order is placed, there is no issue.



= It usually just encourage people to find another fab house.

Exactly. It is called capitalism. Use it while you still can...


= I am not asking them to do that. I am combining them myself with
= matching set of tools. If anomalies come up, I would be willing to
= pay more. I should not have to pay more because there are separate
= functional areas on the board.

You do not have to use their services.

P.S. I do not like it either, but it does not matter. You can always use
different manufacturer and fab house you do not like goes bankrupt.

--
Andrew

Mon Feb 08, 2010 4:45 am   

On Sun, 7 Feb 2010 13:53:58 -0800 (PST), linnix
<me_at_linnix.info-for.us> wrote:


Might help if you identify which ones have given you this problem, and
to what extent.

When I am prototyping I have sent multiple designs on a single file to
one fab which I no longer use, and in production I have sent
two_on_a_board to PCBcart more than once and it was treated as one
job, one startup charge.

Let's face it, if they have a setup charge for a first_up or changed
job, they are covered. You send a proto sheet and they hit you. You
send a subsequent prod job with either single designs or chaged
multiples and ... they hit you.

I can only see one reason why they would do this - panelising and
separation. With some fabs they set out clear router clearances for
panelising, so that it is practical to do your own. Others won't do
this - I suspect they are the "job-bulkers" who take everybody's small
jobs and fit them onto a large panel which they then outsource to
another "sheet-only" house. They figure if they re-lay your designs
with the other clients' work, they might get a better fit/yield from
the sheet. You can pick them when questions come back, they are
always quotes from the sheet-only man. Been there, done that.

Mon Feb 08, 2010 5:53 am   

On Sun, 7 Feb 2010 13:53:58 -0800 (PST), linnix
<me_at_linnix.info-for.us> wrote:



My board house charged for a single board here:

ftp://jjlarkin.lmi.net/Z250A.jpg

Maybe the trick is to put *lots* of boards on one layout.

ONE of the circuits actually worked!

John

Mon Feb 08, 2010 7:13 am   

On Feb 7, 6:45 pm, who where <no...@home.net> wrote:

I have encountered this both in US and China, PCBcart included.


Take PCBcart for example:
size of board: 400mmx200mm
10 pcs @ $21 each

Setup cost based on number of designs:
1 126
2 138
3 151
4 163
5 189
6 252
7 283
8 315

I am willing to pay $163, but not $315.

Mon Feb 08, 2010 7:26 am   

linnix wrote:

Sales Speak: profit