PCB multiple designs surcharge

ftp://jjlarkin.lmi.net/DSC01371.JPG

It is a nice big screen, but the edges of the waveform are rounded,
not a real square wave.
10GHz bandwidth?

The scope is 20 GHz, 17 pS spec'd risetime. It's my pin driver circuit
that's slow. Here it is as a product:

http://www.highlandtechnology.com/DSS/T860DS.html

The undershoot is my bad on the pcb layout. I'll fix that some day.

John

On Feb 8, 4:50 pm, who where <no...@home.net> wrote:
On Sun, 7 Feb 2010 20:13:01 -0800 (PST), linnix



m...@linnix.info-for.us> wrote:
On Feb 7, 6:45 pm, who where <no...@home.net> wrote:
On Sun, 7 Feb 2010 13:53:58 -0800 (PST), linnix

m...@linnix.info-for.us> wrote:
Some PCB fab houses charge extra for having multiple designs combined
in a board.  They don't have to do any extra work or different
processes than single design.  Why do they insist on this extra
charge?  Some of them will waive the fee after negotiation, but this
is just unnecessary hassle.

I know this is very common in the industry, but why do they care about
number of customer designs?  For identical board area and spec, 4
designs cost 30% more and 8 designs cost 100% more in setup.  Are
different versions of the same board consider as different designs?

Might help if you identify which ones have given you this problem, and
to what extent.

I have encountered this both in US and China, PCBcart included.

When I am prototyping I have sent multiple designs on a single file to
one fab which I no longer use, and in production I have sent
two_on_a_board to PCBcart more than once and it was treated as one
job, one startup charge.

Take PCBcart for example:
size of board: 400mmx200mm
10 pcs @ $21 each

Setup cost based on number of designs:
1 126
2 138
3 151
4 163
5 189
6 252
7 283
8 315

I am willing to pay $163, but not $315.

I just reviewed one past job.  My notes on the PCBcart order form for
one of the files read "size is two boards same size one slot each see
Huang".  The tooling cost was consistent with the area of the combined
pair of boards.

This followed an email exchange:

About to place an order for several designs, and I have some questions
about how your system handles certain situations.

1.  I have one pair of board designs that are only ever used as a pair -
they are the front and back of a small case.  I have always provided my
previous supplier with one file incorporating the two designs spaced as per
his separation routing clearance of 100 thou (attached), and this has been
treated as ONE design for setup purposes.

(a).  Do you treat this as ONE setup charge?

(b).  You normally separate by V-groove and snap.  If these were to be
ordered as a single design, should I "panelise" them adjacent with no
clearance between or just space them on the file and leave it to your
people to panelise?

Response:

Nice to receive you again.

1. a. It could be treated as one design with one tooling cost.
  b. It would be better if you could panelize them such as file 255FBNEW.PCB. Do you
need us to separate front and back boards into pieces when finished, not on panel?

And even though they V-groove_and_snap rather than rout, they accepted
the file with 100 thou separation between the two designs.

So, what is their concept/definition of different designs?

On Feb 7, 2:12 pm, Spehro Pefhany <speffS...@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat
wrote:
On Sun, 7 Feb 2010 13:53:58 -0800 (PST), the renowned linnix

m...@linnix.info-for.us> wrote:
Some PCB fab houses charge extra for having multiple designs combined
in a board.  They don't have to do any extra work or different
processes than single design.  Why do they insist on this extra
charge?  Some of them will waive the fee after negotiation, but this
is just unnecessary hassle.

I know this is very common in the industry, but why do they care about
number of customer designs?  For identical board area and spec, 4
designs cost 30% more and 8 designs cost 100% more in setup.  Are
different versions of the same board consider as different designs?

1. Because they can

2. Because they want to discourage people from trying to combine
   designs.

It usually just encourage people to find another fab house.


3. Because manually combined designs probably cost them a lot
   of support time due to duplicated tools or other anomalies.

I am not asking them to do that. I am combining them myself with
matching set of tools. If anomalies come up, I would be willing to
pay more. I should not have to pay more because there are separate
functional areas on the board.

On Feb 7, 9:28 pm, don <don> wrote:
linnix wrote:
On Feb 7, 4:28 pm, Tim Watts <t...@dionic.net> wrote:
linnix <m...@linnix.info-for.us
  wibbled on Monday 08 February 2010 00:18

In one case, I paid and submitted files.  They saw different
functional blocks and wanted to charge more.  I told them to cancel
the order and they back off.  Another fab's web says that they are
trying to protect jobs by charging more and forcing designers to
submit multiple orders.  By killing us (designers), I don't know how
they can create more jobs for them.
So does that mean if you created one board with a snap line (where the
functional parts *could* (but needn't) be separated, they would charge more?
Sounds very subjective - and a rather prehistoric and misguided charging
approach. Reminds me of the RIAA/MPAA.

Yes, some say so explicitly, with or without snap line.  Usually, I
can negotiate it out, but I am tried of dealing with such nonsense.
Am I the only one having these experiences?

By the way, I never have design issues with combined designs, except
for money issues.

No, you are not alone.

4pcb.com charges an extra $50 to step and repeat !!!

But I do all the shift, merge, step and repeat. All else being
equal. They charge $126 if I says it's 1 design, $163 if 4 designs
and $315 if 8 designs. They do exactly the same work regardless.

On Sun, 7 Feb 2010 22:25:16 -0800 (PST), linnix <m...@linnix.info-for.us> wrote:
On Feb 7, 9:28 pm, don <don> wrote:
linnix wrote:
On Feb 7, 4:28 pm, Tim Watts <t...@dionic.net> wrote:
linnix <m...@linnix.info-for.us
  wibbled on Monday 08 February 2010 00:18

In one case, I paid and submitted files.  They saw different
functional blocks and wanted to charge more.  I told them to cancel
the order and they back off.  Another fab's web says that they are
trying to protect jobs by charging more and forcing designers to
submit multiple orders.  By killing us (designers), I don't know how
they can create more jobs for them.
So does that mean if you created one board with a snap line (where the
functional parts *could* (but needn't) be separated, they would charge more?
Sounds very subjective - and a rather prehistoric and misguided charging
approach. Reminds me of the RIAA/MPAA.

Yes, some say so explicitly, with or without snap line.  Usually, I
can negotiate it out, but I am tried of dealing with such nonsense.
Am I the only one having these experiences?

By the way, I never have design issues with combined designs, except
for money issues.

No, you are not alone.

4pcb.com charges an extra $50 to step and repeat !!!

But I do all the shift, merge, step and repeat.  All else being
equal.  They charge $126 if I says it's 1 design,  $163 if 4 designs
and $315 if 8 designs.  They do exactly the same work regardless.

Do i correctly understand that it is the exact same Gerbers and Excellon
and soldermask and silk screen for all 8 cases?  And that they are only
providing blank PCBs?  If so don't tell them.

On Feb 11, 9:54 pm, "JosephKK"<quiettechb...@yahoo.com> wrote:
On Sun, 7 Feb 2010 22:25:16 -0800 (PST), linnix <m...@linnix.info-for.us> wrote:
On Feb 7, 9:28 pm, don <don> wrote:
linnix wrote:
On Feb 7, 4:28 pm, Tim Watts <t...@dionic.net> wrote:
linnix <m...@linnix.info-for.us
  wibbled on Monday 08 February 2010 00:18

In one case, I paid and submitted files.  They saw different
functional blocks and wanted to charge more.  I told them to cancel
the order and they back off.  Another fab's web says that they are
trying to protect jobs by charging more and forcing designers to
submit multiple orders.  By killing us (designers), I don't know how
they can create more jobs for them.
So does that mean if you created one board with a snap line (where the
functional parts *could* (but needn't) be separated, they would charge more?
Sounds very subjective - and a rather prehistoric and misguided charging
approach. Reminds me of the RIAA/MPAA.

Yes, some say so explicitly, with or without snap line.  Usually, I
can negotiate it out, but I am tried of dealing with such nonsense.
Am I the only one having these experiences?

By the way, I never have design issues with combined designs, except
for money issues.

No, you are not alone.

4pcb.com charges an extra $50 to step and repeat !!!

But I do all the shift, merge, step and repeat.  All else being
equal.  They charge $126 if I says it's 1 design,  $163 if 4 designs
and $315 if 8 designs.  They do exactly the same work regardless.

Do i correctly understand that it is the exact same Gerbers and Excellon
and soldermask and silk screen for all 8 cases?  And that they are only
providing blank PCBs?  If so don't tell them.

Yes, you are correct. They see different functional modules on the
PCB and want to charge more. They don't have to do anything else with
the additional designs. This usually cause delays on the job, so I
either pay or suffer the delay. It's the industry's best kept dirty
secret.

On Fri, 12 Feb 2010 11:35:20 -0800 (PST), linnix <m...@linnix.info-for.us> wrote:
On Feb 11, 9:54 pm, "JosephKK"<quiettechb...@yahoo.com> wrote:
On Sun, 7 Feb 2010 22:25:16 -0800 (PST), linnix <m...@linnix.info-for.us> wrote:
On Feb 7, 9:28 pm, don <don> wrote:
linnix wrote:
On Feb 7, 4:28 pm, Tim Watts <t...@dionic.net> wrote:
linnix <m...@linnix.info-for.us
  wibbled on Monday 08 February 2010 00:18

In one case, I paid and submitted files.  They saw different
functional blocks and wanted to charge more.  I told them to cancel
the order and they back off.  Another fab's web says that they are
trying to protect jobs by charging more and forcing designers to
submit multiple orders.  By killing us (designers), I don't know how
they can create more jobs for them.
So does that mean if you created one board with a snap line (where the
functional parts *could* (but needn't) be separated, they would charge more?
Sounds very subjective - and a rather prehistoric and misguided charging
approach. Reminds me of the RIAA/MPAA.

Yes, some say so explicitly, with or without snap line.  Usually, I
can negotiate it out, but I am tried of dealing with such nonsense.
Am I the only one having these experiences?

By the way, I never have design issues with combined designs, except
for money issues.

No, you are not alone.

4pcb.com charges an extra $50 to step and repeat !!!

But I do all the shift, merge, step and repeat.  All else being
equal.  They charge $126 if I says it's 1 design,  $163 if 4 designs
and $315 if 8 designs.  They do exactly the same work regardless.

Do i correctly understand that it is the exact same Gerbers and Excellon
and soldermask and silk screen for all 8 cases?  And that they are only
providing blank PCBs?  If so don't tell them.

Yes, you are correct.  They see different functional modules on the
PCB and want to charge more.  They don't have to do anything else with
the additional designs.  This usually cause delays on the job, so I
either pay or suffer the delay.  It's the industry's best kept dirty
secret.

First, remind them just what you are paying them for.
Then it is time to try some other vendors, just to find out.

On Feb 14, 8:36 pm, "JosephKK"<quiettechb...@yahoo.com> wrote:

First, remind them just what you are paying them for.
Then it is time to try some other vendors, just to find out.

Yeah, a coupla good approaches with 'negotitations' like this are to
ask them "If you were in my position, how would you feel about pricing
like this?"

also, "Why are you trying so hard to never do business with me again?"