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don
Guest
Guest
Mon Feb 08, 2010 7:28 am
linnix wrote:
Quote:
On Feb 7, 4:28 pm, Tim Watts <t...@dionic.net> wrote:
linnix <m...@linnix.info-for.us
wibbled on Monday 08 February 2010 00:18
In one case, I paid and submitted files. They saw different
functional blocks and wanted to charge more. I told them to cancel
the order and they back off. Another fab's web says that they are
trying to protect jobs by charging more and forcing designers to
submit multiple orders. By killing us (designers), I don't know how
they can create more jobs for them.
So does that mean if you created one board with a snap line (where the
functional parts *could* (but needn't) be separated, they would charge more?
Sounds very subjective - and a rather prehistoric and misguided charging
approach. Reminds me of the RIAA/MPAA.
Yes, some say so explicitly, with or without snap line. Usually, I
can negotiate it out, but I am tried of dealing with such nonsense.
Am I the only one having these experiences?
By the way, I never have design issues with combined designs, except
for money issues.
linnix <m...@linnix.info-for.us
wibbled on Monday 08 February 2010 00:18
In one case, I paid and submitted files. They saw different
functional blocks and wanted to charge more. I told them to cancel
the order and they back off. Another fab's web says that they are
trying to protect jobs by charging more and forcing designers to
submit multiple orders. By killing us (designers), I don't know how
they can create more jobs for them.
So does that mean if you created one board with a snap line (where the
functional parts *could* (but needn't) be separated, they would charge more?
Sounds very subjective - and a rather prehistoric and misguided charging
approach. Reminds me of the RIAA/MPAA.
Yes, some say so explicitly, with or without snap line. Usually, I
can negotiate it out, but I am tried of dealing with such nonsense.
Am I the only one having these experiences?
By the way, I never have design issues with combined designs, except
for money issues.
No, you are not alone.
4pcb.com charges an extra $50 to step and repeat !!!
Quote:
Surely the cost should be based on simple quantifiable entities like:
layers, holes, number of holes sizes (tools), area (of input panel),
finishes (gold, soldermask, silk) and suchlike.
Who cares how many notional designs are on the board?
--
Tim Watts
Managers, politicians and environmentalists: Nature's carbon buffer.
linnix
Guest
Guest
Mon Feb 08, 2010 7:37 am
On Feb 7, 7:53 pm, John Larkin
<jjlar...@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:
Quote:
On Sun, 7 Feb 2010 13:53:58 -0800 (PST), linnix
m...@linnix.info-for.us> wrote:
Some PCB fab houses charge extra for having multiple designs combined
in a board. They don't have to do any extra work or different
processes than single design. Why do they insist on this extra
charge? Some of them will waive the fee after negotiation, but this
is just unnecessary hassle.
I know this is very common in the industry, but why do they care about
number of customer designs? For identical board area and spec, 4
designs cost 30% more and 8 designs cost 100% more in setup. Are
different versions of the same board consider as different designs?
My board house charged for a single board here:
ftp://jjlarkin.lmi.net/Z250A.jpg
Maybe the trick is to put *lots* of boards on one layout.
ONE of the circuits actually worked!
John
m...@linnix.info-for.us> wrote:
Some PCB fab houses charge extra for having multiple designs combined
in a board. They don't have to do any extra work or different
processes than single design. Why do they insist on this extra
charge? Some of them will waive the fee after negotiation, but this
is just unnecessary hassle.
I know this is very common in the industry, but why do they care about
number of customer designs? For identical board area and spec, 4
designs cost 30% more and 8 designs cost 100% more in setup. Are
different versions of the same board consider as different designs?
My board house charged for a single board here:
ftp://jjlarkin.lmi.net/Z250A.jpg
Maybe the trick is to put *lots* of boards on one layout.
ONE of the circuits actually worked!
John
Yes, I do exactly the same. But some fab house would charge you for
10x to 15x setup costs. Of course, I can ignore my conscience and
insist on paying 1x setup. They just make me feel like I am cheating
them.
miso@sushi.com
Guest
Guest
Mon Feb 08, 2010 7:53 am
On Feb 7, 8:37 pm, linnix <m...@linnix.info-for.us> wrote:
Quote:
On Feb 7, 7:53 pm, John Larkin
jjlar...@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:
On Sun, 7 Feb 2010 13:53:58 -0800 (PST), linnix
m...@linnix.info-for.us> wrote:
Some PCB fab houses charge extra for having multiple designs combined
in a board. They don't have to do any extra work or different
processes than single design. Why do they insist on this extra
charge? Some of them will waive the fee after negotiation, but this
is just unnecessary hassle.
I know this is very common in the industry, but why do they care about
number of customer designs? For identical board area and spec, 4
designs cost 30% more and 8 designs cost 100% more in setup. Are
different versions of the same board consider as different designs?
My board house charged for a single board here:
ftp://jjlarkin.lmi.net/Z250A.jpg
Maybe the trick is to put *lots* of boards on one layout.
ONE of the circuits actually worked!
John
Yes, I do exactly the same. But some fab house would charge you for
10x to 15x setup costs. Of course, I can ignore my conscience and
insist on paying 1x setup. They just make me feel like I am cheating
them.
jjlar...@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:
On Sun, 7 Feb 2010 13:53:58 -0800 (PST), linnix
m...@linnix.info-for.us> wrote:
Some PCB fab houses charge extra for having multiple designs combined
in a board. They don't have to do any extra work or different
processes than single design. Why do they insist on this extra
charge? Some of them will waive the fee after negotiation, but this
is just unnecessary hassle.
I know this is very common in the industry, but why do they care about
number of customer designs? For identical board area and spec, 4
designs cost 30% more and 8 designs cost 100% more in setup. Are
different versions of the same board consider as different designs?
My board house charged for a single board here:
ftp://jjlarkin.lmi.net/Z250A.jpg
Maybe the trick is to put *lots* of boards on one layout.
ONE of the circuits actually worked!
John
Yes, I do exactly the same. But some fab house would charge you for
10x to 15x setup costs. Of course, I can ignore my conscience and
insist on paying 1x setup. They just make me feel like I am cheating
them.
Name them and shame them. That will stop the practice.
rickman
Guest
Guest
Mon Feb 08, 2010 8:57 am
On Feb 7, 7:34 pm, linnix <m...@linnix.info-for.us> wrote:
Quote:
On Feb 7, 4:28 pm, Tim Watts <t...@dionic.net> wrote:
linnix <m...@linnix.info-for.us
wibbled on Monday 08 February 2010 00:18
In one case, I paid and submitted files. They saw different
functional blocks and wanted to charge more. I told them to cancel
the order and they back off. Another fab's web says that they are
trying to protect jobs by charging more and forcing designers to
submit multiple orders. By killing us (designers), I don't know how
they can create more jobs for them.
So does that mean if you created one board with a snap line (where the
functional parts *could* (but needn't) be separated, they would charge more?
Sounds very subjective - and a rather prehistoric and misguided charging
approach. Reminds me of the RIAA/MPAA.
Yes, some say so explicitly, with or without snap line. Usually, I
can negotiate it out, but I am tried of dealing with such nonsense.
Am I the only one having these experiences?
By the way, I never have design issues with combined designs, except
for money issues.
Surely the cost should be based on simple quantifiable entities like:
layers, holes, number of holes sizes (tools), area (of input panel),
finishes (gold, soldermask, silk) and suchlike.
Who cares how many notional designs are on the board?
linnix <m...@linnix.info-for.us
wibbled on Monday 08 February 2010 00:18
In one case, I paid and submitted files. They saw different
functional blocks and wanted to charge more. I told them to cancel
the order and they back off. Another fab's web says that they are
trying to protect jobs by charging more and forcing designers to
submit multiple orders. By killing us (designers), I don't know how
they can create more jobs for them.
So does that mean if you created one board with a snap line (where the
functional parts *could* (but needn't) be separated, they would charge more?
Sounds very subjective - and a rather prehistoric and misguided charging
approach. Reminds me of the RIAA/MPAA.
Yes, some say so explicitly, with or without snap line. Usually, I
can negotiate it out, but I am tried of dealing with such nonsense.
Am I the only one having these experiences?
By the way, I never have design issues with combined designs, except
for money issues.
Surely the cost should be based on simple quantifiable entities like:
layers, holes, number of holes sizes (tools), area (of input panel),
finishes (gold, soldermask, silk) and suchlike.
Who cares how many notional designs are on the board?
I was once trying to get a board house to fab a PWB that was only 1 x
0.5 inches and wanted a few dozen on a panel and several panels. They
wanted to charge me *per board* at their minimum rate even if they
didn't rout or separate the boards. Their minimum rate was $4 per!!!
Needless to say I didn't use them. IIRC, there was more than one
place that insisted on charging that way.
Rick
linnix
Guest
Guest
Mon Feb 08, 2010 9:25 am
On Feb 7, 9:28 pm, don <don> wrote:
Quote:
linnix wrote:
On Feb 7, 4:28 pm, Tim Watts <t...@dionic.net> wrote:
linnix <m...@linnix.info-for.us
wibbled on Monday 08 February 2010 00:18
In one case, I paid and submitted files. They saw different
functional blocks and wanted to charge more. I told them to cancel
the order and they back off. Another fab's web says that they are
trying to protect jobs by charging more and forcing designers to
submit multiple orders. By killing us (designers), I don't know how
they can create more jobs for them.
So does that mean if you created one board with a snap line (where the
functional parts *could* (but needn't) be separated, they would charge more?
Sounds very subjective - and a rather prehistoric and misguided charging
approach. Reminds me of the RIAA/MPAA.
Yes, some say so explicitly, with or without snap line. Usually, I
can negotiate it out, but I am tried of dealing with such nonsense.
Am I the only one having these experiences?
By the way, I never have design issues with combined designs, except
for money issues.
No, you are not alone.
4pcb.com charges an extra $50 to step and repeat !!!
On Feb 7, 4:28 pm, Tim Watts <t...@dionic.net> wrote:
linnix <m...@linnix.info-for.us
wibbled on Monday 08 February 2010 00:18
In one case, I paid and submitted files. They saw different
functional blocks and wanted to charge more. I told them to cancel
the order and they back off. Another fab's web says that they are
trying to protect jobs by charging more and forcing designers to
submit multiple orders. By killing us (designers), I don't know how
they can create more jobs for them.
So does that mean if you created one board with a snap line (where the
functional parts *could* (but needn't) be separated, they would charge more?
Sounds very subjective - and a rather prehistoric and misguided charging
approach. Reminds me of the RIAA/MPAA.
Yes, some say so explicitly, with or without snap line. Usually, I
can negotiate it out, but I am tried of dealing with such nonsense.
Am I the only one having these experiences?
By the way, I never have design issues with combined designs, except
for money issues.
No, you are not alone.
4pcb.com charges an extra $50 to step and repeat !!!
But I do all the shift, merge, step and repeat. All else being
equal. They charge $126 if I says it's 1 design, $163 if 4 designs
and $315 if 8 designs. They do exactly the same work regardless.
Andrew
Guest
Guest
Mon Feb 08, 2010 11:05 am
"linnix" <me_at_linnix.info-for.us> wrote in message
news:355efbb1-5507-44fa-b342-9358563951af_at_x1g2000prb.googlegroups.com...
On Feb 7, 9:28 pm, don <don> wrote:
Quote:
linnix wrote:
On Feb 7, 4:28 pm, Tim Watts <t...@dionic.net> wrote:
linnix <m...@linnix.info-for.us
wibbled on Monday 08 February 2010 00:18
In one case, I paid and submitted files. They saw different
functional blocks and wanted to charge more. I told them to cancel
the order and they back off. Another fab's web says that they are
trying to protect jobs by charging more and forcing designers to
submit multiple orders. By killing us (designers), I don't know how
they can create more jobs for them.
So does that mean if you created one board with a snap line (where the
functional parts *could* (but needn't) be separated, they would charge
more?
Sounds very subjective - and a rather prehistoric and misguided
charging
approach. Reminds me of the RIAA/MPAA.
Yes, some say so explicitly, with or without snap line. Usually, I
can negotiate it out, but I am tried of dealing with such nonsense.
Am I the only one having these experiences?
By the way, I never have design issues with combined designs, except
for money issues.
No, you are not alone.
4pcb.com charges an extra $50 to step and repeat !!!
On Feb 7, 4:28 pm, Tim Watts <t...@dionic.net> wrote:
linnix <m...@linnix.info-for.us
wibbled on Monday 08 February 2010 00:18
In one case, I paid and submitted files. They saw different
functional blocks and wanted to charge more. I told them to cancel
the order and they back off. Another fab's web says that they are
trying to protect jobs by charging more and forcing designers to
submit multiple orders. By killing us (designers), I don't know how
they can create more jobs for them.
So does that mean if you created one board with a snap line (where the
functional parts *could* (but needn't) be separated, they would charge
more?
Sounds very subjective - and a rather prehistoric and misguided
charging
approach. Reminds me of the RIAA/MPAA.
Yes, some say so explicitly, with or without snap line. Usually, I
can negotiate it out, but I am tried of dealing with such nonsense.
Am I the only one having these experiences?
By the way, I never have design issues with combined designs, except
for money issues.
No, you are not alone.
4pcb.com charges an extra $50 to step and repeat !!!
= But I do all the shift, merge, step and repeat. All else being
= equal. They charge $126 if I says it's 1 design, $163 if 4 designs
= and $315 if 8 designs. They do exactly the same work regardless.
Open your own business and do not charge for multiple designs. Everyone will
order from you, other guys go bankrupt, and you will become
multimillionaire.
Capitalism at work.
--
Andrew
Rene
Guest
Guest
Mon Feb 08, 2010 11:55 am
miso_at_sushi.com wrote:
Quote:
On Feb 7, 8:37 pm, linnix <m...@linnix.info-for.us> wrote:
On Feb 7, 7:53 pm, John Larkin
jjlar...@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:
On Sun, 7 Feb 2010 13:53:58 -0800 (PST), linnix
m...@linnix.info-for.us> wrote:
Some PCB fab houses charge extra for having multiple designs combined
in a board. They don't have to do any extra work or different
processes than single design. Why do they insist on this extra
charge? Some of them will waive the fee after negotiation, but this
is just unnecessary hassle.
I know this is very common in the industry, but why do they care about
number of customer designs? For identical board area and spec, 4
designs cost 30% more and 8 designs cost 100% more in setup. Are
different versions of the same board consider as different designs?
My board house charged for a single board here:
ftp://jjlarkin.lmi.net/Z250A.jpg
Maybe the trick is to put *lots* of boards on one layout.
ONE of the circuits actually worked!
John
Yes, I do exactly the same. But some fab house would charge you for
10x to 15x setup costs. Of course, I can ignore my conscience and
insist on paying 1x setup. They just make me feel like I am cheating
them.
Name them and shame them. That will stop the practice.
On Feb 7, 7:53 pm, John Larkin
jjlar...@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:
On Sun, 7 Feb 2010 13:53:58 -0800 (PST), linnix
m...@linnix.info-for.us> wrote:
Some PCB fab houses charge extra for having multiple designs combined
in a board. They don't have to do any extra work or different
processes than single design. Why do they insist on this extra
charge? Some of them will waive the fee after negotiation, but this
is just unnecessary hassle.
I know this is very common in the industry, but why do they care about
number of customer designs? For identical board area and spec, 4
designs cost 30% more and 8 designs cost 100% more in setup. Are
different versions of the same board consider as different designs?
My board house charged for a single board here:
ftp://jjlarkin.lmi.net/Z250A.jpg
Maybe the trick is to put *lots* of boards on one layout.
ONE of the circuits actually worked!
John
Yes, I do exactly the same. But some fab house would charge you for
10x to 15x setup costs. Of course, I can ignore my conscience and
insist on paying 1x setup. They just make me feel like I am cheating
them.
Name them and shame them. That will stop the practice.
Yes, I don't understand why he doesn't just mention the names so we all
will know who to avoid (or whom we might send an email to tell them we
will not choose them and why not).
Nial Stewart
Guest
Guest
Mon Feb 08, 2010 12:00 pm
"linnix" <me_at_linnix.info-for.us> wrote in message
news:ba62882b-0f49-46ff-a9d3-af11ca0d2cbd_at_s25g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
Quote:
Some PCB fab houses charge extra for having multiple designs combined
in a board. They don't have to do any extra work or different
processes than single design. Why do they insist on this extra
charge? Some of them will waive the fee after negotiation, but this
is just unnecessary hassle.
in a board. They don't have to do any extra work or different
processes than single design. Why do they insist on this extra
charge? Some of them will waive the fee after negotiation, but this
is just unnecessary hassle.
Are you asking for electrical test?
They must have software that deduces a netlist from the gerbers, it
could be that multiple boards on a single panel screws this up
needing manual intervention.
You wouldn't have thought it would cost much to fix though.
Nial
Jan Panteltje
Guest
Guest
Mon Feb 08, 2010 2:33 pm
On a sunny day (Sun, 07 Feb 2010 19:53:26 -0800) it happened John Larkin
<jjlarkin_at_highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote in
<2e2vm5tnncm8ic9a0qm9tpivkub0l9ch7c_at_4ax.com>:
Quote:
On Sun, 7 Feb 2010 13:53:58 -0800 (PST), linnix
me_at_linnix.info-for.us> wrote:
Some PCB fab houses charge extra for having multiple designs combined
in a board. They don't have to do any extra work or different
processes than single design. Why do they insist on this extra
charge? Some of them will waive the fee after negotiation, but this
is just unnecessary hassle.
I know this is very common in the industry, but why do they care about
number of customer designs? For identical board area and spec, 4
designs cost 30% more and 8 designs cost 100% more in setup. Are
different versions of the same board consider as different designs?
My board house charged for a single board here:
ftp://jjlarkin.lmi.net/Z250A.jpg
Maybe the trick is to put *lots* of boards on one layout.
ONE of the circuits actually worked!
me_at_linnix.info-for.us> wrote:
Some PCB fab houses charge extra for having multiple designs combined
in a board. They don't have to do any extra work or different
processes than single design. Why do they insist on this extra
charge? Some of them will waive the fee after negotiation, but this
is just unnecessary hassle.
I know this is very common in the industry, but why do they care about
number of customer designs? For identical board area and spec, 4
designs cost 30% more and 8 designs cost 100% more in setup. Are
different versions of the same board consider as different designs?
My board house charged for a single board here:
ftp://jjlarkin.lmi.net/Z250A.jpg
Maybe the trick is to put *lots* of boards on one layout.
ONE of the circuits actually worked!
Only one?
Stef
Guest
Guest
Mon Feb 08, 2010 3:59 pm
In comp.arch.embedded,
1 Lucky Texan <alckytxn_at_swbell.net> wrote:
Quote:
On Feb 8, 4:00 am, "Nial Stewart"
nial*REMOVE_TH...@nialstewartdevelopments.co.uk> wrote:
"linnix" <m...@linnix.info-for.us> wrote in message
news:ba62882b-0f49-46ff-a9d3-af11ca0d2cbd_at_s25g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
Some PCB fab houses charge extra for having multiple designs combined
in a board. They don't have to do any extra work or different
processes than single design. Why do they insist on this extra
charge? Some of them will waive the fee after negotiation, but this
is just unnecessary hassle.
Are you asking for electrical test?
They must have software that deduces a netlist from the gerbers, it
could be that multiple boards on a single panel screws this up
needing manual intervention.
You wouldn't have thought it would cost much to fix though.
Nial
ET would be the only 'reasonable' excuse for that kind of pricing.
nial*REMOVE_TH...@nialstewartdevelopments.co.uk> wrote:
"linnix" <m...@linnix.info-for.us> wrote in message
news:ba62882b-0f49-46ff-a9d3-af11ca0d2cbd_at_s25g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
Some PCB fab houses charge extra for having multiple designs combined
in a board. They don't have to do any extra work or different
processes than single design. Why do they insist on this extra
charge? Some of them will waive the fee after negotiation, but this
is just unnecessary hassle.
Are you asking for electrical test?
They must have software that deduces a netlist from the gerbers, it
could be that multiple boards on a single panel screws this up
needing manual intervention.
You wouldn't have thought it would cost much to fix though.
Nial
ET would be the only 'reasonable' excuse for that kind of pricing.
Why? All boards are just a collection of separated nets if no components
are placed. What is different if one group of disconnected nets is in
one area of the board and another group in another area?
And if I design a board with galvanic isolation I have just such a
layout, only difference is that you may see some silk print for
optocouplers and DCDC converter 'connecting' the otherwise completely
disconnected groups of nets. Would you accept a charge for 2 designs
for this board?
--
Stef (remove caps, dashes and .invalid from e-mail address to reply by mail)
If I'm over the hill, why is it I don't recall ever being on top?
-- Jerry Muscha
Rich Webb
Guest
Guest
Mon Feb 08, 2010 4:02 pm
On Mon, 8 Feb 2010 11:22:38 +1030, "Chris Burrows"
<cfbsoftware_at_hotmail.com> wrote:
Quote:
"linnix" <me_at_linnix.info-for.us> wrote in message
news:ba62882b-0f49-46ff-a9d3-af11ca0d2cbd_at_s25g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
Some PCB fab houses charge extra for having multiple designs combined
in a board. They don't have to do any extra work or different
processes than single design. Why do they insist on this extra
charge? Some of them will waive the fee after negotiation, but this
is just unnecessary hassle.
Check out BatchPCB (an offshoot of SparkFun Electronics) - they even combine
multiple designs from different customers:
"You submit your PCB design, we add your design to the batch of orders. When
the batch is big enough (usually about 1 week), the batch is set off for
manufacture. 10 days later, the individual boards are received by us. We
then split the orders up and mail your order to you."
http://www.batchpcb.com
We haven't tried them ourselves but would be interested to hear of anybody's
experience.
No complaints. Ordered three small boards, received seven for no extra
charge. It was a small, oblong shape that I guess they used to fill out
the panel. Took a while to receive. Good quality. I'd use them again.
--
Rich Webb Norfolk, VA
1 Lucky Texan
Guest
Guest
Mon Feb 08, 2010 4:37 pm
On Feb 8, 4:00 am, "Nial Stewart"
<nial*REMOVE_TH...@nialstewartdevelopments.co.uk> wrote:
Quote:
"linnix" <m...@linnix.info-for.us> wrote in message
news:ba62882b-0f49-46ff-a9d3-af11ca0d2cbd_at_s25g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
Some PCB fab houses charge extra for having multiple designs combined
in a board. They don't have to do any extra work or different
processes than single design. Why do they insist on this extra
charge? Some of them will waive the fee after negotiation, but this
is just unnecessary hassle.
Are you asking for electrical test?
They must have software that deduces a netlist from the gerbers, it
could be that multiple boards on a single panel screws this up
needing manual intervention.
You wouldn't have thought it would cost much to fix though.
Nial
news:ba62882b-0f49-46ff-a9d3-af11ca0d2cbd_at_s25g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
Some PCB fab houses charge extra for having multiple designs combined
in a board. They don't have to do any extra work or different
processes than single design. Why do they insist on this extra
charge? Some of them will waive the fee after negotiation, but this
is just unnecessary hassle.
Are you asking for electrical test?
They must have software that deduces a netlist from the gerbers, it
could be that multiple boards on a single panel screws this up
needing manual intervention.
You wouldn't have thought it would cost much to fix though.
Nial
ET would be the only 'reasonable' excuse for that kind of pricing.
John Larkin
Guest
Guest
Mon Feb 08, 2010 5:26 pm
On Mon, 08 Feb 2010 12:33:21 GMT, Jan Panteltje
<pNaonStpealmtje_at_yahoo.com> wrote:
Quote:
On a sunny day (Sun, 07 Feb 2010 19:53:26 -0800) it happened John Larkin
jjlarkin_at_highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote in
2e2vm5tnncm8ic9a0qm9tpivkub0l9ch7c_at_4ax.com>:
On Sun, 7 Feb 2010 13:53:58 -0800 (PST), linnix
me_at_linnix.info-for.us> wrote:
Some PCB fab houses charge extra for having multiple designs combined
in a board. They don't have to do any extra work or different
processes than single design. Why do they insist on this extra
charge? Some of them will waive the fee after negotiation, but this
is just unnecessary hassle.
I know this is very common in the industry, but why do they care about
number of customer designs? For identical board area and spec, 4
designs cost 30% more and 8 designs cost 100% more in setup. Are
different versions of the same board consider as different designs?
My board house charged for a single board here:
ftp://jjlarkin.lmi.net/Z250A.jpg
Maybe the trick is to put *lots* of boards on one layout.
ONE of the circuits actually worked!
Only one?
jjlarkin_at_highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote in
2e2vm5tnncm8ic9a0qm9tpivkub0l9ch7c_at_4ax.com>:
On Sun, 7 Feb 2010 13:53:58 -0800 (PST), linnix
me_at_linnix.info-for.us> wrote:
Some PCB fab houses charge extra for having multiple designs combined
in a board. They don't have to do any extra work or different
processes than single design. Why do they insist on this extra
charge? Some of them will waive the fee after negotiation, but this
is just unnecessary hassle.
I know this is very common in the industry, but why do they care about
number of customer designs? For identical board area and spec, 4
designs cost 30% more and 8 designs cost 100% more in setup. Are
different versions of the same board consider as different designs?
My board house charged for a single board here:
ftp://jjlarkin.lmi.net/Z250A.jpg
Maybe the trick is to put *lots* of boards on one layout.
ONE of the circuits actually worked!
Only one?
Actually there's one overhead circuit (upper left, voltage regs and
such) and four candidate "pin driver" output circuits, one of which
worked and got used in a couple of products. The other little bits are
a lowpass filter (which we've used a couple of times), a couple of
gaasfet testers (not used so far) and a couple of transmission line
things for TDR/TDT testing. There's also one TDR test trace just for
fun.
Oh, there are two dipswitch-based attenuators of different topology,
one of which got used in a product for gain cals. We have since found
a really tiny trimpot that's good to about 1 GHz.
John
Jan Panteltje
Guest
Guest
Mon Feb 08, 2010 6:21 pm
On a sunny day (Mon, 08 Feb 2010 07:26:12 -0800) it happened John Larkin
<jjlarkin_at_highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote in
<ara0n5h8qdsjj08k2shdul1eit5ho6sjuu_at_4ax.com>:
Quote:
On Mon, 08 Feb 2010 12:33:21 GMT, Jan Panteltje
pNaonStpealmtje_at_yahoo.com> wrote:
On a sunny day (Sun, 07 Feb 2010 19:53:26 -0800) it happened John Larkin
jjlarkin_at_highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote in
2e2vm5tnncm8ic9a0qm9tpivkub0l9ch7c_at_4ax.com>:
On Sun, 7 Feb 2010 13:53:58 -0800 (PST), linnix
me_at_linnix.info-for.us> wrote:
Some PCB fab houses charge extra for having multiple designs combined
in a board. They don't have to do any extra work or different
processes than single design. Why do they insist on this extra
charge? Some of them will waive the fee after negotiation, but this
is just unnecessary hassle.
I know this is very common in the industry, but why do they care about
number of customer designs? For identical board area and spec, 4
designs cost 30% more and 8 designs cost 100% more in setup. Are
different versions of the same board consider as different designs?
My board house charged for a single board here:
ftp://jjlarkin.lmi.net/Z250A.jpg
Maybe the trick is to put *lots* of boards on one layout.
ONE of the circuits actually worked!
Only one?
Actually there's one overhead circuit (upper left, voltage regs and
such) and four candidate "pin driver" output circuits, one of which
worked and got used in a couple of products. The other little bits are
a lowpass filter (which we've used a couple of times), a couple of
gaasfet testers (not used so far) and a couple of transmission line
things for TDR/TDT testing. There's also one TDR test trace just for
fun.
Oh, there are two dipswitch-based attenuators of different topology,
one of which got used in a product for gain cals. We have since found
a really tiny trimpot that's good to about 1 GHz.
John
pNaonStpealmtje_at_yahoo.com> wrote:
On a sunny day (Sun, 07 Feb 2010 19:53:26 -0800) it happened John Larkin
jjlarkin_at_highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote in
2e2vm5tnncm8ic9a0qm9tpivkub0l9ch7c_at_4ax.com>:
On Sun, 7 Feb 2010 13:53:58 -0800 (PST), linnix
me_at_linnix.info-for.us> wrote:
Some PCB fab houses charge extra for having multiple designs combined
in a board. They don't have to do any extra work or different
processes than single design. Why do they insist on this extra
charge? Some of them will waive the fee after negotiation, but this
is just unnecessary hassle.
I know this is very common in the industry, but why do they care about
number of customer designs? For identical board area and spec, 4
designs cost 30% more and 8 designs cost 100% more in setup. Are
different versions of the same board consider as different designs?
My board house charged for a single board here:
ftp://jjlarkin.lmi.net/Z250A.jpg
Maybe the trick is to put *lots* of boards on one layout.
ONE of the circuits actually worked!
Only one?
Actually there's one overhead circuit (upper left, voltage regs and
such) and four candidate "pin driver" output circuits, one of which
worked and got used in a couple of products. The other little bits are
a lowpass filter (which we've used a couple of times), a couple of
gaasfet testers (not used so far) and a couple of transmission line
things for TDR/TDT testing. There's also one TDR test trace just for
fun.
Oh, there are two dipswitch-based attenuators of different topology,
one of which got used in a product for gain cals. We have since found
a really tiny trimpot that's good to about 1 GHz.
John
Nice, anything above 1GHz or so will probably remain magick to me
I simply do not have the equipment to measure that stuff.
Have some parts here to try a diode sampler one day,
just ordered hundreds of dollars more mondaine parts...
The latest thing with ordering from conrad.nl is,
that if you manage to enter all type numbers in the browser without the site flipping or browser crashing,
then in the 'shopping card' they also include related things that you did *not*
order... makes it hard to check, had the spreadsheet next to it.
I think the idea is that you think 'oh I need that too'.
Browser crashed just after I closed the secure connection.
Why do all those sites have to have all that crap all over the screen?
John Larkin
Guest
Guest
Mon Feb 08, 2010 6:59 pm
On Mon, 08 Feb 2010 16:21:11 GMT, Jan Panteltje
<pNaonStpealmtje_at_yahoo.com> wrote:
Quote:
On a sunny day (Mon, 08 Feb 2010 07:26:12 -0800) it happened John Larkin
jjlarkin_at_highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote in
ara0n5h8qdsjj08k2shdul1eit5ho6sjuu_at_4ax.com>:
On Mon, 08 Feb 2010 12:33:21 GMT, Jan Panteltje
pNaonStpealmtje_at_yahoo.com> wrote:
On a sunny day (Sun, 07 Feb 2010 19:53:26 -0800) it happened John Larkin
jjlarkin_at_highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote in
2e2vm5tnncm8ic9a0qm9tpivkub0l9ch7c_at_4ax.com>:
On Sun, 7 Feb 2010 13:53:58 -0800 (PST), linnix
me_at_linnix.info-for.us> wrote:
Some PCB fab houses charge extra for having multiple designs combined
in a board. They don't have to do any extra work or different
processes than single design. Why do they insist on this extra
charge? Some of them will waive the fee after negotiation, but this
is just unnecessary hassle.
I know this is very common in the industry, but why do they care about
number of customer designs? For identical board area and spec, 4
designs cost 30% more and 8 designs cost 100% more in setup. Are
different versions of the same board consider as different designs?
My board house charged for a single board here:
ftp://jjlarkin.lmi.net/Z250A.jpg
Maybe the trick is to put *lots* of boards on one layout.
ONE of the circuits actually worked!
Only one?
Actually there's one overhead circuit (upper left, voltage regs and
such) and four candidate "pin driver" output circuits, one of which
worked and got used in a couple of products. The other little bits are
a lowpass filter (which we've used a couple of times), a couple of
gaasfet testers (not used so far) and a couple of transmission line
things for TDR/TDT testing. There's also one TDR test trace just for
fun.
Oh, there are two dipswitch-based attenuators of different topology,
one of which got used in a product for gain cals. We have since found
a really tiny trimpot that's good to about 1 GHz.
John
Nice, anything above 1GHz or so will probably remain magick to me
jjlarkin_at_highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote in
ara0n5h8qdsjj08k2shdul1eit5ho6sjuu_at_4ax.com>:
On Mon, 08 Feb 2010 12:33:21 GMT, Jan Panteltje
pNaonStpealmtje_at_yahoo.com> wrote:
On a sunny day (Sun, 07 Feb 2010 19:53:26 -0800) it happened John Larkin
jjlarkin_at_highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote in
2e2vm5tnncm8ic9a0qm9tpivkub0l9ch7c_at_4ax.com>:
On Sun, 7 Feb 2010 13:53:58 -0800 (PST), linnix
me_at_linnix.info-for.us> wrote:
Some PCB fab houses charge extra for having multiple designs combined
in a board. They don't have to do any extra work or different
processes than single design. Why do they insist on this extra
charge? Some of them will waive the fee after negotiation, but this
is just unnecessary hassle.
I know this is very common in the industry, but why do they care about
number of customer designs? For identical board area and spec, 4
designs cost 30% more and 8 designs cost 100% more in setup. Are
different versions of the same board consider as different designs?
My board house charged for a single board here:
ftp://jjlarkin.lmi.net/Z250A.jpg
Maybe the trick is to put *lots* of boards on one layout.
ONE of the circuits actually worked!
Only one?
Actually there's one overhead circuit (upper left, voltage regs and
such) and four candidate "pin driver" output circuits, one of which
worked and got used in a couple of products. The other little bits are
a lowpass filter (which we've used a couple of times), a couple of
gaasfet testers (not used so far) and a couple of transmission line
things for TDR/TDT testing. There's also one TDR test trace just for
fun.
Oh, there are two dipswitch-based attenuators of different topology,
one of which got used in a product for gain cals. We have since found
a really tiny trimpot that's good to about 1 GHz.
John
Nice, anything above 1GHz or so will probably remain magick to me
To me, too. I haven't the nonlinear device models, the EM software
tools, or the brute intelligence to predict how some of this stuff
will behave. So a mixture of instinct, experience, and experiment will
have to do.
Quote:
I simply do not have the equipment to measure that stuff.
I started with flea-market Tek gear, a 547 scope and a 1S2
TDR/sampler, about $120 total. Nowadays you can get an 11801 mainframe
and a 20 GHz TDR/sampling head for around $1500.
ftp://jjlarkin.lmi.net/1S2.jpg
The 11801 is a beast, but it works beautifully. This one is displaying
a 1 GHz square wave from the successful pin driver circuit on my
multiple-circuit board, under the Mantis. The sampling head is on an
extender cable so it can snug right up to the DUT.
ftp://jjlarkin.lmi.net/DSC01371.JPG
The test source is the SRS CG635 2GHz clock generator, a nice box with
the usual SRS quirks. It has a clever but complex way of generating a
very low jitter DDS-based clock.
Quote:
Have some parts here to try a diode sampler one day,
just ordered hundreds of dollars more mondaine parts...
just ordered hundreds of dollars more mondaine parts...
I've done a couple of samplers, just for fun. The Tek S2 topology (SRD
driving shorted transmission lines, 2-diode feedback sampler) works
well and isn't hard to do.
ftp://jjlarkin.lmi.net/Sampler1.JPG
Quote:
The latest thing with ordering from conrad.nl is,
that if you manage to enter all type numbers in the browser without the site flipping or browser crashing,
then in the 'shopping card' they also include related things that you did *not*
order... makes it hard to check, had the spreadsheet next to it.
I think the idea is that you think 'oh I need that too'.
Browser crashed just after I closed the secure connection.
Why do all those sites have to have all that crap all over the screen?
that if you manage to enter all type numbers in the browser without the site flipping or browser crashing,
then in the 'shopping card' they also include related things that you did *not*
order... makes it hard to check, had the spreadsheet next to it.
I think the idea is that you think 'oh I need that too'.
Browser crashed just after I closed the secure connection.
Why do all those sites have to have all that crap all over the screen?
Firefox under XP seems very solid to me. It's not elegant but it
works.
John
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