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John Doe
Guest

Fri Jan 04, 2019 6:45 pm   



As far as I know, using an oscilloscope for drones, I have absolutely no
use for the BL's logic analyzer. But it looks like the inclusion of a
logic analyzer is a huge value. Another concern with the BE is that
apparently it is discontinued.

Looks ike most of the problems people have with those two oscilloscopes
are caused by their inability to use a PC.

Just to check my understanding of a "logic analyzer"... That's like when
you want to know what happens when pressing a touch swhich that goes to
some logic circuit? In other words... When a logic output goes high,
this is what happens to subsequent logic?

I'm confident that's correct, just double checking.

Thanks.

John Robertson
Guest

Fri Jan 04, 2019 8:45 pm   



On 2019/01/04 9:41 a.m., John Doe wrote:
Quote:
As far as I know, using an oscilloscope for drones, I have absolutely no
use for the BL's logic analyzer. But it looks like the inclusion of a
logic analyzer is a huge value. Another concern with the BE is that
apparently it is discontinued.

Looks ike most of the problems people have with those two oscilloscopes
are caused by their inability to use a PC.

Just to check my understanding of a "logic analyzer"... That's like when
you want to know what happens when pressing a touch swhich that goes to
some logic circuit? In other words... When a logic output goes high,
this is what happens to subsequent logic?

I'm confident that's correct, just double checking.

Thanks.


A logic analyzer can show you a record of data both before and after a
Trigger Event. You decide what data to monitor and what the Trigger
Event(s) is(are), then how much prior data and subsequent data you wish
to be able to review. This information determines the number of data
lines, speed, and storage capacity required of your LA device.

For most of us the data of interest is address and data buses along with
various interrupts, etc. based on real world interactions.

John :-#)#
--
(Please post followups or tech inquiries to the USENET newsgroup)
John's Jukes Ltd.
MOVED to #7 - 3979 Marine Way, Burnaby, BC, Canada V5J 5E3
(604)872-5757 (Pinballs, Jukes, Video Games)
www.flippers.com
"Old pinballers never die, they just flip out."

Mike
Guest

Fri Jan 04, 2019 10:45 pm   



On 1/4/2019 10:59 AM, John Robertson wrote:
Quote:
On 2019/01/04 9:41 a.m., John Doe wrote:
As far as I know, using an oscilloscope for drones, I have absolutely no
use for the BL's logic analyzer. But it looks like the inclusion of a
logic analyzer is a huge value. Another concern with the BE is that
apparently it is discontinued.

Looks ike most of the problems people have with those two oscilloscopes
are caused by their inability to use a PC.

Just to check my understanding of a "logic analyzer"... That's like when
you want to know what happens when pressing a touch switch that goes to
some logic circuit? In other words... When a logic output goes high,
this is what happens to subsequent logic?

I'm confident that's correct, just double checking.

Thanks.


A logic analyzer can show you a record of data both before and after a
Trigger Event. You decide what data to monitor and what the Trigger
Event(s) is(are), then how much prior data and subsequent data you wish
to be able to review. This information determines the number of data
lines, speed, and storage capacity required of your LA device.

For most of us the data of interest is address and data buses along with
various interrupts, etc. based on real world interactions.

John :-#)#


The most important decision is "What am I gonna do with this?"
You wouldn't buy a phillips screwdriver to remove torx screws.
You shouldn't buy a scope that won't measure what you're after.

Based on a 10 minute google, both scopes appear to be absolute crap.
The manuals and specs are so vague as to be useless.

Let me hasten to add that a crap scope can be very useful in many
situations.
Just make sure you have one of those situations.
If you wanna learn about scopes an make crude observations about how
slow stuff works, this is probably as good as any.

They're a thousand times slower, but you can learn a lot
from an app that uses the sound input on your smart phone
or computer. That also gives you some experience so you can
look for the specs you need when you buy a scope.

If you're trying to figger out why this flip-flop doesn't flip sometimes,
look elsewhere for the diagnostic tool.

Triggering is a very important capability. The ability to look at what
happened BEFORE the trigger event is very useful...but only if the
triggering capability will let you trigger selectively.

This is even more important for a logic analyzer. You wan't to trigger
on sequences of events and store only relevant data. You want analysis
of that data. Triggering the analog scope on a sequence of logic states
can be extremely useful. The specs don't say, and it's complex, so probably
not supported.
Complex triggering is the most important spec for a logic analyzer.

There's also a very important parameter that's easy to overlook with
sampling stuff.
A million bytes of memory sounds like a lot, but if you're sampling at
40 megasamples a second, you get only 1/40th of a second captured.
If you have narrow pulses spaced far apart, you slow down the sweep speed.
Eventually, you get to the point where the pulse has come and gone between
two samples. They start to disappear on the screen. That's not what
you want to see when diagnosing a problem with missing pulses. The flip
side of that coin is that if you sample too slowly, you get aliasing
and the picture on the screen ain't at all like what's actually there.

You can experience these effects with a smart-phone app before you
spend $$ on something that may not do what you want.

I haven't designed a production logic analyzer in 30 years.
Lots of innovation since then...but probably not implemented in
a $60 product.

John Doe
Guest

Fri Jan 04, 2019 10:45 pm   



Mike <ham789_at_netscape.net> wrote:

Quote:
John Robertson wrote:
John Doe wrote:

As far as I know, using an oscilloscope for drones, I have
absolutely no use for the BL's logic analyzer. But it looks like
the inclusion of a logic analyzer is a huge value. Another
concern with the BE is that apparently it is discontinued.

Looks ike most of the problems people have with those two
oscilloscopes are caused by their inability to use a PC.

Just to check my understanding of a "logic analyzer"... That's
like when you want to know what happens when pressing a touch
switch that goes to some logic circuit? In other words... When a
logic output goes high, this is what happens to subsequent
logic?

I'm confident that's correct, just double checking.

A logic analyzer can show you a record of data both before and
after a Trigger Event. You decide what data to monitor and what
the Trigger Event(s) is(are), then how much prior data and
subsequent data you wish to be able to review. This information
determines the number of data lines, speed, and storage capacity
required of your LA device.

For most of us the data of interest is address and data buses
along with various interrupts, etc. based on real world
interactions.

The most important decision is "What am I gonna do with this?" You
wouldn't buy a phillips screwdriver to remove torx screws. You
shouldn't buy a scope that won't measure what you're after.

Based on a 10 minute google, both scopes appear to be absolute
crap.


References?
Many of the negative reviews appear to be from people who have
trouble using a PC. As a PC guru, oftentimes I can tell by what they
write, they are stumbling over PC user problems. For example when a
reviewer says "It doesn't work!" Typically that means they do not
know how to set up the software, update the firmware, etc.

Mike
Guest

Fri Jan 04, 2019 11:45 pm   



On 1/4/2019 1:44 PM, John Doe wrote:
Quote:
Mike <ham789_at_netscape.net> wrote:

John Robertson wrote:
John Doe wrote:

As far as I know, using an oscilloscope for drones, I have
absolutely no use for the BL's logic analyzer. But it looks like
the inclusion of a logic analyzer is a huge value. Another
concern with the BE is that apparently it is discontinued.

Looks ike most of the problems people have with those two
oscilloscopes are caused by their inability to use a PC.

Just to check my understanding of a "logic analyzer"... That's
like when you want to know what happens when pressing a touch
switch that goes to some logic circuit? In other words... When a
logic output goes high, this is what happens to subsequent
logic?

I'm confident that's correct, just double checking.

A logic analyzer can show you a record of data both before and
after a Trigger Event. You decide what data to monitor and what
the Trigger Event(s) is(are), then how much prior data and
subsequent data you wish to be able to review. This information
determines the number of data lines, speed, and storage capacity
required of your LA device.

For most of us the data of interest is address and data buses
along with various interrupts, etc. based on real world
interactions.

The most important decision is "What am I gonna do with this?" You
wouldn't buy a phillips screwdriver to remove torx screws. You
shouldn't buy a scope that won't measure what you're after.

Based on a 10 minute google, both scopes appear to be absolute
crap.

References?
Many of the negative reviews appear to be from people who have
trouble using a PC. As a PC guru, oftentimes I can tell by what they
write, they are stumbling over PC user problems. For example when a
reviewer says "It doesn't work!" Typically that means they do not
know how to set up the software, update the firmware, etc.

All you gotta do is go read the manual/specs. It's not about the PC.
It's about the (lack of) specs and (lack of) user operation of the
interface.


Guest

Sat Jan 05, 2019 6:45 am   



On Fri, 4 Jan 2019 10:59:00 -0800, John Robertson <spam_at_flippers.com>
wrote:

Quote:
On 2019/01/04 9:41 a.m., John Doe wrote:
As far as I know, using an oscilloscope for drones, I have absolutely no
use for the BL's logic analyzer. But it looks like the inclusion of a
logic analyzer is a huge value. Another concern with the BE is that
apparently it is discontinued.

Looks ike most of the problems people have with those two oscilloscopes
are caused by their inability to use a PC.

Just to check my understanding of a "logic analyzer"... That's like when
you want to know what happens when pressing a touch swhich that goes to
some logic circuit? In other words... When a logic output goes high,
this is what happens to subsequent logic?

I'm confident that's correct, just double checking.

Thanks.


A logic analyzer can show you a record of data both before and after a
Trigger Event. You decide what data to monitor and what the Trigger
Event(s) is(are), then how much prior data and subsequent data you wish
to be able to review. This information determines the number of data
lines, speed, and storage capacity required of your LA device.

For most of us the data of interest is address and data buses along with
various interrupts, etc. based on real world interactions.


I haven't needed a (general purpose) logic analyzer in almost 30
years. With modern systems, they're more work to set up than they are
useful and they're absolutely useless for memory busses, and such.
Protocol analyzers (I2C, SPI, USB, etc.) can be rather useful, OTOH.

John Doe
Guest

Sat Jan 05, 2019 8:45 am   



Mike <ham789_at_netscape.net> wrote:

Quote:
John Doe wrote:
Mike <ham789_at_netscape.net> wrote:
John Robertson wrote:
John Doe wrote:

As far as I know, using an oscilloscope for drones, I have
absolutely no use for the BL's logic analyzer. But it looks like
the inclusion of a logic analyzer is a huge value. Another
concern with the BE is that apparently it is discontinued.

Looks ike most of the problems people have with those two
oscilloscopes are caused by their inability to use a PC.

Just to check my understanding of a "logic analyzer"... That's
like when you want to know what happens when pressing a touch
switch that goes to some logic circuit? In other words... When a
logic output goes high, this is what happens to subsequent
logic?

I'm confident that's correct, just double checking.

A logic analyzer can show you a record of data both before and
after a Trigger Event. You decide what data to monitor and what
the Trigger Event(s) is(are), then how much prior data and
subsequent data you wish to be able to review. This information
determines the number of data lines, speed, and storage capacity
required of your LA device.

For most of us the data of interest is address and data buses
along with various interrupts, etc. based on real world
interactions.

The most important decision is "What am I gonna do with this?" You
wouldn't buy a phillips screwdriver to remove torx screws. You
shouldn't buy a scope that won't measure what you're after.

Based on a 10 minute google, both scopes appear to be absolute
crap.

References?
Many of the negative reviews appear to be from people who have
trouble using a PC. As a PC guru, oftentimes I can tell by what
they write, they are stumbling over PC user problems. For example
when a reviewer says "It doesn't work!" Typically that means they
do not know how to set up the software, update the firmware, etc.

All you gotta do is go read the manual/specs. It's not about the
PC. It's about the (lack of) specs and (lack of) user operation of
the interface.


What specs do I need for drones?

I wouldn't worry about the interface. There is an entire group devoted
for making an alternative interface for it. They have been doing it
for many years.

Mike
Guest

Sat Jan 05, 2019 9:45 am   



On 1/4/2019 11:16 PM, John Doe wrote:
Quote:
Mike <ham789_at_netscape.net> wrote:

John Doe wrote:
Mike <ham789_at_netscape.net> wrote:
John Robertson wrote:
John Doe wrote:

As far as I know, using an oscilloscope for drones, I have
absolutely no use for the BL's logic analyzer. But it looks like
the inclusion of a logic analyzer is a huge value. Another
concern with the BE is that apparently it is discontinued.

Looks ike most of the problems people have with those two
oscilloscopes are caused by their inability to use a PC.

Just to check my understanding of a "logic analyzer"... That's
like when you want to know what happens when pressing a touch
switch that goes to some logic circuit? In other words... When a
logic output goes high, this is what happens to subsequent
logic?

I'm confident that's correct, just double checking.

A logic analyzer can show you a record of data both before and
after a Trigger Event. You decide what data to monitor and what
the Trigger Event(s) is(are), then how much prior data and
subsequent data you wish to be able to review. This information
determines the number of data lines, speed, and storage capacity
required of your LA device.

For most of us the data of interest is address and data buses
along with various interrupts, etc. based on real world
interactions.

The most important decision is "What am I gonna do with this?" You
wouldn't buy a phillips screwdriver to remove torx screws. You
shouldn't buy a scope that won't measure what you're after.

Based on a 10 minute google, both scopes appear to be absolute
crap.

References?
Many of the negative reviews appear to be from people who have
trouble using a PC. As a PC guru, oftentimes I can tell by what
they write, they are stumbling over PC user problems. For example
when a reviewer says "It doesn't work!" Typically that means they
do not know how to set up the software, update the firmware, etc.

All you gotta do is go read the manual/specs. It's not about the
PC. It's about the (lack of) specs and (lack of) user operation of
the interface.

What specs do I need for drones?


That's my point, I don't know, and looks like neither do you.
Dynamic range of the input and whether it's offset at the input
or fixed and has a much more limited software offset.
Quote:

I wouldn't worry about the interface. There is an entire group devoted
for making an alternative interface for it. They have been doing it
for many years.


You're missing the point completely.
It's not abut the UI. It's about the hardware.
When I read the manual, there was absolutely zero about the logic analyzer.
What's the input dynamic range?
What's the triggering capability?
Can the LA trigger the scope?
Does it work by sampling the input at a fixed rate?
OR does it record time stamps at transitions GREATLY expanding the
capture time for sparse signals.
How about glitch triggering?
Pattern triggering?

It would be interesting to see what the group devoted to it has
to say about the specs. The vendor is mute on the subject.
I'd call that a red flag.
Quote:









John Doe
Guest

Sat Jan 05, 2019 11:45 pm   



Mike <ham789_at_netscape.net> wrote:

Quote:
John Doe wrote:
Mike <ham789_at_netscape.net> wrote:
John Doe wrote:
Mike <ham789_at_netscape.net> wrote:
John Robertson wrote:
John Doe wrote:

As far as I know, using an oscilloscope for drones, I have
absolutely no use for the BL's logic analyzer. But it looks
like the inclusion of a logic analyzer is a huge value.
Another concern with the BE is that apparently it is
discontinued.

Looks ike most of the problems people have with those two
oscilloscopes are caused by their inability to use a PC.

Just to check my understanding of a "logic analyzer"...
That's like when you want to know what happens when pressing
a touch switch that goes to some logic circuit? In other
words... When a logic output goes high, this is what happens
to subsequent logic?

I'm confident that's correct, just double checking.

A logic analyzer can show you a record of data both before
and after a Trigger Event. You decide what data to monitor
and what the Trigger Event(s) is(are), then how much prior
data and subsequent data you wish to be able to review. This
information determines the number of data lines, speed, and
storage capacity required of your LA device.

For most of us the data of interest is address and data buses
along with various interrupts, etc. based on real world
interactions.

The most important decision is "What am I gonna do with this?"
You wouldn't buy a phillips screwdriver to remove torx screws.
You shouldn't buy a scope that won't measure what you're
after.

Based on a 10 minute google, both scopes appear to be absolute
crap.

References? Many of the negative reviews appear to be from
people who have trouble using a PC. As a PC guru, oftentimes I
can tell by what they write, they are stumbling over PC user
problems. For example when a reviewer says "It doesn't work!"
Typically that means they do not know how to set up the
software, update the firmware, etc.

All you gotta do is go read the manual/specs. It's not about
the PC. It's about the (lack of) specs and (lack of) user
operation of the interface.

What specs do I need for drones?

That's my point, I don't know, and looks like neither do you.


That's why I asked, Sherlock.

"I have absolutely no use for the BL's logic analyzer."

<SNIP>


Guest

Wed Jan 09, 2019 11:45 pm   



On Saturday, January 5, 2019 at 5:32:23 PM UTC-5, John Doe wrote:
Quote:
Mike <ham789_at_netscape.net> wrote:

John Doe wrote:
Mike <ham789_at_netscape.net> wrote:
John Doe wrote:
Mike <ham789_at_netscape.net> wrote:
John Robertson wrote:
John Doe wrote:

As far as I know, using an oscilloscope for drones, I have
absolutely no use for the BL's logic analyzer. But it looks
like the inclusion of a logic analyzer is a huge value.
Another concern with the BE is that apparently it is
discontinued.

Looks ike most of the problems people have with those two
oscilloscopes are caused by their inability to use a PC.

Just to check my understanding of a "logic analyzer"...
That's like when you want to know what happens when pressing
a touch switch that goes to some logic circuit? In other
words... When a logic output goes high, this is what happens
to subsequent logic?

I'm confident that's correct, just double checking.

A logic analyzer can show you a record of data both before
and after a Trigger Event. You decide what data to monitor
and what the Trigger Event(s) is(are), then how much prior
data and subsequent data you wish to be able to review. This
information determines the number of data lines, speed, and
storage capacity required of your LA device.

For most of us the data of interest is address and data buses
along with various interrupts, etc. based on real world
interactions.

The most important decision is "What am I gonna do with this?"
You wouldn't buy a phillips screwdriver to remove torx screws.
You shouldn't buy a scope that won't measure what you're
after.

Based on a 10 minute google, both scopes appear to be absolute
crap.

References? Many of the negative reviews appear to be from
people who have trouble using a PC. As a PC guru, oftentimes I
can tell by what they write, they are stumbling over PC user
problems. For example when a reviewer says "It doesn't work!"
Typically that means they do not know how to set up the
software, update the firmware, etc.

All you gotta do is go read the manual/specs. It's not about
the PC. It's about the (lack of) specs and (lack of) user
operation of the interface.

What specs do I need for drones?

That's my point, I don't know, and looks like neither do you.

That's why I asked, Sherlock.

"I have absolutely no use for the BL's logic analyzer."


I can't tell you anything about drones and what you might want to use with them as I have no idea what you are doing with the drone. But I can tell you a scope is useful for looking at analog signals while a logic analyzer is useful for looking at digital signals. The scope records the actual voltage at each time sample while the logic analyzer just tells you if the voltage was above or below a given voltage. The scope typically has 2 or 4 inputs while a logic analyzer can have 8 or many more. 36 channels is not unusual. As someone pointed out logic analyzers often have serial protocol software while it is less common on scopes.

Does any of this ring a bell for you?

Rick C.

+ Get 6 months of free supercharging
+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209


Guest

Wed Jan 09, 2019 11:45 pm   



On Friday, January 4, 2019 at 4:44:31 PM UTC-5, John Doe wrote:
Quote:
Mike <ham789_at_netscape.net> wrote:

John Robertson wrote:
John Doe wrote:

As far as I know, using an oscilloscope for drones, I have
absolutely no use for the BL's logic analyzer. But it looks like
the inclusion of a logic analyzer is a huge value. Another
concern with the BE is that apparently it is discontinued.

Looks ike most of the problems people have with those two
oscilloscopes are caused by their inability to use a PC.

Just to check my understanding of a "logic analyzer"... That's
like when you want to know what happens when pressing a touch
switch that goes to some logic circuit? In other words... When a
logic output goes high, this is what happens to subsequent
logic?

I'm confident that's correct, just double checking.

A logic analyzer can show you a record of data both before and
after a Trigger Event. You decide what data to monitor and what
the Trigger Event(s) is(are), then how much prior data and
subsequent data you wish to be able to review. This information
determines the number of data lines, speed, and storage capacity
required of your LA device.

For most of us the data of interest is address and data buses
along with various interrupts, etc. based on real world
interactions.

The most important decision is "What am I gonna do with this?" You
wouldn't buy a phillips screwdriver to remove torx screws. You
shouldn't buy a scope that won't measure what you're after.

Based on a 10 minute google, both scopes appear to be absolute
crap.

References?
Many of the negative reviews appear to be from people who have
trouble using a PC. As a PC guru, oftentimes I can tell by what they
write, they are stumbling over PC user problems. For example when a
reviewer says "It doesn't work!" Typically that means they do not
know how to set up the software, update the firmware, etc.


I'm one of those people. I use 20 year old email software on four different versions of Windows, a 10 year old, unsupported PCB layout program under the same 4 versions of Windows, but never got the software for the Hantek scope to work. It installed, but does nothing useful.

I have the version with the logic analyzer because from the specs available for the unit it was not possible to tell that the two are in no way linked or synchronized. They simply share the same USB interface and power connector.

I'll sell it for $50. Not sure what they are selling for now.

Rick C.

- Get 6 months of free supercharging
- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

John Doe
Guest

Thu Jan 10, 2019 11:45 am   



gnuarm.deletethisbit_at_gmail.com wrote:

Quote:
...never got the software for the Hantek scope to work. It
installed, but does nothing useful.

I have the version with the logic analyzer...


https://sigrok.org/wiki/Hantek_6022BL

https://sigrok.org/wiki/Downloads#Windows

Hantek has a Wi-Fi version that is more capable. It supposedly connects
to various devices like a PC, an Android device, and an iPhone/iPad. I
would be concerned about the stock software.

Dedicated hardware might be best, but the one obvious benefit of using a
PC for text and graphics applications is a relatively huge screen.

John Doe
Guest

Thu Jan 10, 2019 11:45 am   



Correction...

> https://sigrok.org/wiki/Downloads#Windows

https://sigrok.org/wiki/Downloads


Guest

Fri Jan 11, 2019 1:45 am   



On Thursday, January 10, 2019 at 4:47:42 AM UTC-5, John Doe wrote:
Quote:
gnuarm.deletethisbit_at_gmail.com wrote:

...never got the software for the Hantek scope to work. It
installed, but does nothing useful.

I have the version with the logic analyzer...

https://sigrok.org/wiki/Hantek_6022BL

https://sigrok.org/wiki/Downloads#Windows

Hantek has a Wi-Fi version that is more capable. It supposedly connects
to various devices like a PC, an Android device, and an iPhone/iPad. I
would be concerned about the stock software.

Dedicated hardware might be best, but the one obvious benefit of using a
PC for text and graphics applications is a relatively huge screen.


There is not much about the 6022 that you could call "capable". The issue has nothing to do with the PC connection. This is an oscilloscope made using an MCU chip... that's it, an MCU chip. Don't expect much performance because you won't see it. I bought the unit I have because I was considering a higher end unit at a higher price tag. Now that I know they put so little effort into the software and support I won't be buying anything with their name on it. There are competing products that actually work.

Rick C.

-- Get 6 months of free supercharging
-- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209


Guest

Fri Jan 11, 2019 1:45 am   



On Thursday, January 10, 2019 at 7:35:32 PM UTC-5, gnuarm.del...@gmail.com wrote:
Quote:
On Thursday, January 10, 2019 at 4:47:42 AM UTC-5, John Doe wrote:
gnuarm.deletethisbit_at_gmail.com wrote:

...never got the software for the Hantek scope to work. It
installed, but does nothing useful.

I have the version with the logic analyzer...

https://sigrok.org/wiki/Hantek_6022BL

https://sigrok.org/wiki/Downloads#Windows

Hantek has a Wi-Fi version that is more capable. It supposedly connects
to various devices like a PC, an Android device, and an iPhone/iPad. I
would be concerned about the stock software.

Dedicated hardware might be best, but the one obvious benefit of using a
PC for text and graphics applications is a relatively huge screen.

There is not much about the 6022 that you could call "capable". The issue has nothing to do with the PC connection. This is an oscilloscope made using an MCU chip... that's it, an MCU chip. Don't expect much performance because you won't see it. I bought the unit I have because I was considering a higher end unit at a higher price tag. Now that I know they put so little effort into the software and support I won't be buying anything with their name on it. There are competing products that actually work.

Rick C.

-- Get 6 months of free supercharging
-- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209


Oh, BTW, the big advantage of attached equipment is the size and weight savings. A scope with a display and control panel would be as large as a PC. I would like to be able to carry a scope in my PC bag.


Rick C.

-+ Get 6 months of free supercharging
-+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

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