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OT: Liquid water is composed of 150-unit branching polymers

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Guest

Wed Feb 06, 2019 1:45 am   



Today's Proceedings of the (US) National Academy of Sciences has an interesting paper

https://www.pnas.org/content/116/6/1998.abstract?etoc

The proposition that liquid water consists of 150-unit branching polymer chains, where the hydrogen bonds that hold the individual water molecules together last for about 90.3 femtoseconds, makes every kind of sense, and does explain why water is as odd as it is.

But 90.3fs isn't all that long ...

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

whit3rd
Guest

Wed Feb 06, 2019 2:45 am   



On Tuesday, February 5, 2019 at 4:55:20 PM UTC-8, gnuarm.del...@gmail.com wrote:

> Which water weirdness will this work over?

There are so many; the slipperyness of ice, the expansion on solidification, the
unusual sensitivity to contamination in 'polywater', the combination of
polar and nonpolar solubilities, and there's another frontier entirely in
the behavior of concentrated solutions (important in electroplating).

Water isn't an easy experimental subject, because there's a LOT happening.
A theory with a lot happening, ought not surprise anyone.


Guest

Wed Feb 06, 2019 2:45 am   



On Tuesday, February 5, 2019 at 7:33:45 PM UTC-5, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
Quote:
Today's Proceedings of the (US) National Academy of Sciences has an interesting paper

https://www.pnas.org/content/116/6/1998.abstract?etoc

The proposition that liquid water consists of 150-unit branching polymer chains, where the hydrogen bonds that hold the individual water molecules together last for about 90.3 femtoseconds, makes every kind of sense, and does explain why water is as odd as it is.

But 90.3fs isn't all that long ...


Which water weirdness will this work over?


Rick C.

- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

George Herold
Guest

Wed Feb 06, 2019 3:45 am   



On Tuesday, February 5, 2019 at 8:31:51 PM UTC-5, whit3rd wrote:
Quote:
On Tuesday, February 5, 2019 at 4:55:20 PM UTC-8, gnuarm.del...@gmail.com wrote:

Which water weirdness will this work over?

There are so many; the slipperyness of ice, the expansion on solidification, the
unusual sensitivity to contamination in 'polywater', the combination of
polar and nonpolar solubilities, and there's another frontier entirely in
the behavior of concentrated solutions (important in electroplating).

Water isn't an easy experimental subject, because there's a LOT happening.
A theory with a lot happening, ought not surprise anyone.


Universal solvent.
Snow.

George H.


Guest

Wed Feb 06, 2019 3:45 am   



On Tuesday, February 5, 2019 at 8:53:33 PM UTC-5, George Herold wrote:
Quote:
On Tuesday, February 5, 2019 at 8:31:51 PM UTC-5, whit3rd wrote:
On Tuesday, February 5, 2019 at 4:55:20 PM UTC-8, gnuarm.del...@gmail.com wrote:

Which water weirdness will this work over?

There are so many; the slipperyness of ice, the expansion on solidification, the
unusual sensitivity to contamination in 'polywater', the combination of
polar and nonpolar solubilities, and there's another frontier entirely in
the behavior of concentrated solutions (important in electroplating).

Water isn't an easy experimental subject, because there's a LOT happening.
A theory with a lot happening, ought not surprise anyone.

Universal solvent.
Snow.


It's an ionic solvent, far from universal. What's unusual about snow? Crystals of water. The only thing about snow that is unusual is that it condenses from our atmosphere, no?


Rick C.

+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209


Guest

Wed Feb 06, 2019 3:45 am   



On Tuesday, February 5, 2019 at 8:31:51 PM UTC-5, whit3rd wrote:
Quote:
On Tuesday, February 5, 2019 at 4:55:20 PM UTC-8, gnuarm.del...@gmail.com wrote:

Which water weirdness will this work over?

There are so many; the slipperyness of ice, the expansion on solidification, the
unusual sensitivity to contamination in 'polywater', the combination of
polar and nonpolar solubilities, and there's another frontier entirely in
the behavior of concentrated solutions (important in electroplating).

Water isn't an easy experimental subject, because there's a LOT happening..
A theory with a lot happening, ought not surprise anyone.


Expanding on crystallization is because as water the molecules fit together in an dense manner but on solidification they rearrange to a lattice with a fixed spacing. The slipperiness is because of this, applying pressure melts the ice forming a thin layer of water which is a lubricant.

Perhaps I have forgotten my chemistry, but I thought water was not a good solvent for non-polar materials. Ever hear of mixing like oil and water?


Rick C.

-- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

Refreshy
Guest

Wed Feb 06, 2019 5:45 am   



On 02/05/2019 05:31 PM, whit3rd wrote:
Quote:
On Tuesday, February 5, 2019 at 4:55:20 PM UTC-8, gnuarm.del...@gmail.com wrote:

Which water weirdness will this work over?

There are so many; the slipperyness of ice, the expansion on solidification, the
unusual sensitivity to contamination in 'polywater', the combination of
polar and nonpolar solubilities, and there's another frontier entirely in
the behavior of concentrated solutions (important in electroplating).

Water isn't an easy experimental subject, because there's a LOT happening.
A theory with a lot happening, ought not surprise anyone.


This insane golden chamber contains water so pure it can dissolve metal...

<https://www.businessinsider.com/super-kamiokande-neutrino-detector-is-unbelievably-beautiful-2018-6/>

Terrifyingly pure water

"Pure water is very, very nasty stuff. It has the features of an acid
and an alkaline."

"Apparently somebody had left a wrench there when they filled it in
1995," he said. "When they drained it in 2000 the wrench had dissolved."


Guest

Wed Feb 06, 2019 6:45 am   



On Wednesday, February 6, 2019 at 3:20:09 PM UTC+11, Refreshy wrote:
Quote:
On 02/05/2019 05:31 PM, whit3rd wrote:
On Tuesday, February 5, 2019 at 4:55:20 PM UTC-8, gnuarm.del...@gmail.com wrote:

Which water weirdness will this work over?

There are so many; the slipperyness of ice, the expansion on solidification, the
unusual sensitivity to contamination in 'polywater', the combination of
polar and nonpolar solubilities, and there's another frontier entirely in
the behavior of concentrated solutions (important in electroplating).

Water isn't an easy experimental subject, because there's a LOT happening.
A theory with a lot happening, ought not surprise anyone.

This insane golden chamber contains water so pure it can dissolve metal...

https://www.businessinsider.com/super-kamiokande-neutrino-detector-is-unbelievably-beautiful-2018-6/

Terrifyingly pure water

"Pure water is very, very nasty stuff. It has the features of an acid
and an alkaline."

"Apparently somebody had left a wrench there when they filled it in
1995," he said. "When they drained it in 2000 the wrench had dissolved."


Twaddle. Pure water is neutral - it contains equal numbers of H3O+ and OH- ions, at about 100 molecules per billion molecules of regular H2O.

If there was oxygen in the water (which seems likely) a wrench could rust and corrode away, probably more slowly than it would in less pure water, but just as inevitably.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

whit3rd
Guest

Wed Feb 06, 2019 7:45 am   



On Tuesday, February 5, 2019 at 6:02:45 PM UTC-8, gnuarm.del...@gmail.com wrote:

>The slipperiness is because of this, applying pressure melts the ice forming a thin layer of water which is a lubricant.

That's one theory; another is that ice surface has excess hydroxyl ions, forming a liquid film,
and the hydroxyl-film also explains frost heave and ice self-fusing.

David Brown
Guest

Wed Feb 06, 2019 9:45 am   



On 06/02/2019 02:31, whit3rd wrote:
Quote:
On Tuesday, February 5, 2019 at 4:55:20 PM UTC-8, gnuarm.del...@gmail.com wrote:

Which water weirdness will this work over?

There are so many; the slipperyness of ice, the expansion on solidification, the
unusual sensitivity to contamination in 'polywater', the combination of
polar and nonpolar solubilities, and there's another frontier entirely in
the behavior of concentrated solutions (important in electroplating).


"Polywater" ? Do you want to include "water memory" and "pentawater" in
your list?

There are enough unusual and interesting properties of water without
bringing pseudoscience into it.

I think the many types of ice (18 known forms) are an interesting aspect
of water. Other substances have more than one solid form, but water has
lots. Part of that, of course, could simply be that water has been
studied more than most substances.


Quote:
Water isn't an easy experimental subject, because there's a LOT happening.
A theory with a lot happening, ought not surprise anyone.


David Brown
Guest

Wed Feb 06, 2019 9:45 am   



On 06/02/2019 03:02, gnuarm.deletethisbit_at_gmail.com wrote:
Quote:
On Tuesday, February 5, 2019 at 8:31:51 PM UTC-5, whit3rd wrote:
On Tuesday, February 5, 2019 at 4:55:20 PM UTC-8, gnuarm.del...@gmail.com wrote:

Which water weirdness will this work over?

There are so many; the slipperyness of ice, the expansion on solidification, the
unusual sensitivity to contamination in 'polywater', the combination of
polar and nonpolar solubilities, and there's another frontier entirely in
the behavior of concentrated solutions (important in electroplating).

Water isn't an easy experimental subject, because there's a LOT happening.
A theory with a lot happening, ought not surprise anyone.

Expanding on crystallization is because as water the molecules fit together in an dense manner but on solidification they rearrange to a lattice with a fixed spacing. The slipperiness is because of this, applying pressure melts the ice forming a thin layer of water which is a lubricant.


That certainly seems to be part of the effect. But it does not apply to
gallium, which also expands on freezing - when it is solid, it is not
slippery under reasonable pressure. (It is, of course, slippery when
there is melted gallium on the surface.)

The "pressure causes melting" idea does not explain why ice is slippery
even with low pressure, nor does it fully explain ice skating. The
slipperiness of ice is a combination of several effects.

Quote:

Perhaps I have forgotten my chemistry, but I thought water was not a good solvent for non-polar materials. Ever hear of mixing like oil and water?


It can dissolve and mix with many non-polar materials - sugar being a
rather important one for biology. Of course it does not dissolve all
non-polar materials - but it handles more than most polar liquids, and
can support an extraordinarily wide range and quantity of dissolved
substances.

Clifford Heath
Guest

Wed Feb 06, 2019 10:45 am   



On 6/2/19 7:05 pm, David Brown wrote:
Quote:
On 06/02/2019 02:31, whit3rd wrote:
On Tuesday, February 5, 2019 at 4:55:20 PM UTC-8, gnuarm.del...@gmail.com wrote:

Which water weirdness will this work over?

There are so many; the slipperyness of ice, the expansion on solidification, the
unusual sensitivity to contamination in 'polywater', the combination of
polar and nonpolar solubilities, and there's another frontier entirely in
the behavior of concentrated solutions (important in electroplating).


"Polywater" ? Do you want to include "water memory" and "pentawater" in
your list?

There are enough unusual and interesting properties of water without
bringing pseudoscience into it.

I think the many types of ice (18 known forms) are an interesting aspect
of water. Other substances have more than one solid form, but water has
lots. Part of that, of course, could simply be that water has been
studied more than most substances.


Not many other molecules are the shape of water (boomerang-shaped), and
the ones that are, are nowhere near so polarized.

Regarding solid forms, consider the hypothetical situation where you
have to make a tidy fire-wood stack from a large pile of 3" thick logs,
all 18" long, and all bent 30 degrees in the middle. I bet you could
have a fun time finding the endless different ways of making a stable stack.

Thank Bokonon we haven't let any ice-9 fall into the ocean!

Clifford Heath.

Martin Brown
Guest

Wed Feb 06, 2019 11:45 am   



On 06/02/2019 05:43, bill.sloman_at_ieee.org wrote:
Quote:
On Wednesday, February 6, 2019 at 3:20:09 PM UTC+11, Refreshy wrote:
On 02/05/2019 05:31 PM, whit3rd wrote:
On Tuesday, February 5, 2019 at 4:55:20 PM UTC-8,
gnuarm.del...@gmail.com wrote:

Which water weirdness will this work over?

There are so many; the slipperyness of ice, the expansion on
solidification, the unusual sensitivity to contamination in
'polywater', the combination of polar and nonpolar solubilities,
and there's another frontier entirely in the behavior of
concentrated solutions (important in electroplating).

Water isn't an easy experimental subject, because there's a LOT
happening. A theory with a lot happening, ought not surprise
anyone.

This insane golden chamber contains water so pure it can dissolve
metal...

https://www.businessinsider.com/super-kamiokande-neutrino-detector-is-unbelievably-beautiful-2018-6/



Terrifyingly pure water

"Pure water is very, very nasty stuff. It has the features of an
acid and an alkaline."

"Apparently somebody had left a wrench there when they filled it
in 1995," he said. "When they drained it in 2000 the wrench had
dissolved."

Twaddle. Pure water is neutral - it contains equal numbers of H3O+
and OH- ions, at about 100 molecules per billion molecules of regular
H2O.


Pure water has a theoretical pH 7 but tends to be around pH 4 if it is
open to the air which is a pretty weak acid but an acid none-the-less.
Its pH when truly pure is pretty much undefined unless you buffer it.

Quote:
If there was oxygen in the water (which seems likely) a wrench could
rust and corrode away, probably more slowly than it would in less
pure water, but just as inevitably.


Ultra pure water is quite corrosive. Much more so than tap water. You
have to be quite careful about the design of stuff that will be used to
handle it. Mistakes made in the design of such kit are expensive.

https://www.lytron.com/Tools-and-Technical-Reference/Application-Notes/Deionized-Water

I'd be a bit surprised if it dissolved a wrench with no residue in five
years but I have seen people have problems through assuming that DI
water is a benign environment for engineering materials like tap water.

https://www.corzan.com/blog/what-is-deionized-water-and-which-piping-materials-convey-it-effectively

In real cooling systems using DI water various organic additives are
added to passivate the metal surfaces. Otherwise the pure water keeps on
ripping metal ions off the surface and dumping them into the ion
exchange column used to keep the water pure. I recall one where they got
it badly wrong and seaweed like green nickel gels gummed up the works.
It looked like something off alien when we opened it up.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

David Brown
Guest

Wed Feb 06, 2019 12:45 pm   



On 06/02/2019 10:58, Martin Brown wrote:
Quote:
On 06/02/2019 05:43, bill.sloman_at_ieee.org wrote:
On Wednesday, February 6, 2019 at 3:20:09 PM UTC+11, Refreshy wrote:
On 02/05/2019 05:31 PM, whit3rd wrote:
On Tuesday, February 5, 2019 at 4:55:20 PM UTC-8,
gnuarm.del...@gmail.com wrote:

Which water weirdness will this work over?

There are so many; the slipperyness of ice, the expansion on
solidification, the unusual sensitivity to contamination in
'polywater', the combination of polar and  nonpolar solubilities,
and there's another frontier entirely in the behavior of
concentrated solutions (important in electroplating).

Water isn't an easy experimental subject, because there's a LOT
happening. A theory with a lot happening, ought not surprise
anyone.

This insane golden chamber contains water so pure it can dissolve
metal...

https://www.businessinsider.com/super-kamiokande-neutrino-detector-is-unbelievably-beautiful-2018-6/




Terrifyingly pure water

"Pure water is very, very nasty stuff. It has the features of an
acid and an alkaline."

"Apparently somebody had left a wrench there when they filled it
in 1995," he said. "When they drained it in 2000 the wrench had
dissolved."

Twaddle. Pure water is neutral - it contains equal numbers of H3O+
and OH- ions, at about 100 molecules per billion molecules of regular
H2O.

Pure water has a theoretical pH 7 but tends to be around pH 4 if it is
open to the air which is a pretty weak acid but an acid none-the-less.
Its pH when truly pure is pretty much undefined unless you buffer it.


Pure water has a pH of 7. Absorption of other things - such as CO₂ from
the atmosphere - change its pH. Pure water can act as either an acid or
a base, depending on what it interacts with.

Quote:

If there was oxygen in the water (which seems likely) a wrench could
rust and corrode away, probably more slowly than it would in less
pure water, but just as inevitably.

Ultra pure water is quite corrosive. Much more so than tap water. You
have to be quite careful about the design of stuff that will be used to
handle it. Mistakes made in the design of such kit are expensive.

https://www.lytron.com/Tools-and-Technical-Reference/Application-Notes/Deionized-Water


That contains the usual nonsense about pure water - "DI water is one of
the most aggressive solvents known." Yeah, sure.

Purified water (however it is done, and to whatever levels) is a
slightly better solvent than tap water simply because it contains less
dissolved minerals and impurities. The ability of a given quantity of
water to dissolve, say, salt decreases with the concentration of salt in
the water. The maximum solubility occurs when the water currently has
no salt (and little of anything else). But it is not particularly
corrosive - just slightly more than "ordinary" water. And of course
once the pure water has corroded something and absorbed some of the
ions, it is no longer pure!

There are lots of myths about how dangerous pure water is supposed to
be. People will tell you that drinking a glass will kill you, or it can
strip the skin from your hand. (Other people will tell you of great
health benefits from drinking their expensive bottled deionised water.)


Quote:

I'd be a bit surprised if it dissolved a wrench with no residue in five
years but I have seen people have problems through assuming that DI
water is a benign environment for engineering materials like tap water.


Deionised water is as benign as tap water with regard to corrosion -
certainly vastly more benign than heavily ionised water (like sea
water). If you are talking about materials that slowly dissolve in
water, such as copper pipes, then they will do so marginally faster with
a steady flow of deionised water than tap water - but only marginally so.

Quote:

https://www.corzan.com/blog/what-is-deionized-water-and-which-piping-materials-convey-it-effectively


In real cooling systems using DI water various organic additives are
added to passivate the metal surfaces. Otherwise the pure water keeps on
ripping metal ions off the surface and dumping them into the ion
exchange column used to keep the water pure. I recall one where they got
it badly wrong and seaweed like green nickel gels gummed up the works.
It looked like something off alien when we opened it up.


They don't use deionised water to stop the corrosion - they use it to
avoid laying down minerals! Normal ionised water gradually leaves scale
in many systems, which is the main reason to want to avoid it. (Other
reasons include avoiding conductivity, and because you don't want
pollutants in your semiconductors, pharmaceuticals, etc.)

Martin Brown
Guest

Wed Feb 06, 2019 4:45 pm   



On 06/02/2019 11:34, David Brown wrote:
Quote:
On 06/02/2019 10:58, Martin Brown wrote:
On 06/02/2019 05:43, bill.sloman_at_ieee.org wrote:
On Wednesday, February 6, 2019 at 3:20:09 PM UTC+11, Refreshy wrote:

"Pure water is very, very nasty stuff. It has the features of an
acid and an alkaline."

"Apparently somebody had left a wrench there when they filled it
in 1995," he said. "When they drained it in 2000 the wrench had
dissolved."

Twaddle. Pure water is neutral - it contains equal numbers of H3O+
and OH- ions, at about 100 molecules per billion molecules of regular
H2O.

Pure water has a theoretical pH 7 but tends to be around pH 4 if it is
open to the air which is a pretty weak acid but an acid none-the-less.
Its pH when truly pure is pretty much undefined unless you buffer it.

Pure water has a pH of 7. Absorption of other things - such as CO₂ from
the atmosphere - change its pH. Pure water can act as either an acid or
a base, depending on what it interacts with.


True enough in theory but in real world practice it generally has oxygen
and carbon dioxide dissolved in it. That is enough for it to be quite
aggressive against materials that ordinary tap water would be fine in.

Quote:
If there was oxygen in the water (which seems likely) a wrench could
rust and corrode away, probably more slowly than it would in less
pure water, but just as inevitably.

Ultra pure water is quite corrosive. Much more so than tap water. You
have to be quite careful about the design of stuff that will be used to
handle it. Mistakes made in the design of such kit are expensive.

https://www.lytron.com/Tools-and-Technical-Reference/Application-Notes/Deionized-Water


That contains the usual nonsense about pure water - "DI water is one of
the most aggressive solvents known." Yeah, sure.


It is a very powerful *solvent* and will take ions off the surface of
almost anything including lab glassware if you have the equipment to
measure it. I worked on the software for ultratrace analytical equipment
destined for the semiconductor industry and capable of sub-ppq detection
limits for key nuisance elements in suitably pure "raw" materials when
prepared under clean room conditions. The length of time a sample could
sit in a test tube before being analysed was carefully controlled.

Quote:
Purified water (however it is done, and to whatever levels) is a
slightly better solvent than tap water simply because it contains less
dissolved minerals and impurities. The ability of a given quantity of
water to dissolve, say, salt decreases with the concentration of salt in
the water. The maximum solubility occurs when the water currently has
no salt (and little of anything else). But it is not particularly
corrosive - just slightly more than "ordinary" water. And of course
once the pure water has corroded something and absorbed some of the
ions, it is no longer pure!


Pure water is a theoretical abstraction which almost never occurs in
real life. The process equipment has to handle the real material perhaps
under a nitrogen blanket and with sub boiling point distillation for the
very best grades of semiconductor pure reagents.

Quote:
There are lots of myths about how dangerous pure water is supposed to
be. People will tell you that drinking a glass will kill you, or it can
strip the skin from your hand. (Other people will tell you of great
health benefits from drinking their expensive bottled deionised water.)


I agree there are a lot of myths about. It is rather keen on becoming
impure.
No more and no less. It tends to find any weak spots - stresses around
welded joints and that sort of thing.

Quote:
I'd be a bit surprised if it dissolved a wrench with no residue in five
years but I have seen people have problems through assuming that DI
water is a benign environment for engineering materials like tap water.

Deionised water is as benign as tap water with regard to corrosion -
certainly vastly more benign than heavily ionised water (like sea
water). If you are talking about materials that slowly dissolve in
water, such as copper pipes, then they will do so marginally faster with
a steady flow of deionised water than tap water - but only marginally so.


No it isn't. The tap water tends to have enough calcium and magnesium in
it to form a thin barrier layer on the pipes. No such protection is
afforded to pipes with distilled or DI water inside.

Quote:

https://www.corzan.com/blog/what-is-deionized-water-and-which-piping-materials-convey-it-effectively


In real cooling systems using DI water various organic additives are
added to passivate the metal surfaces. Otherwise the pure water keeps on
ripping metal ions off the surface and dumping them into the ion
exchange column used to keep the water pure. I recall one where they got
it badly wrong and seaweed like green nickel gels gummed up the works.
It looked like something off alien when we opened it up.

They don't use deionised water to stop the corrosion - they use it to
avoid laying down minerals! Normal ionised water gradually leaves scale
in many systems, which is the main reason to want to avoid it. (Other
reasons include avoiding conductivity, and because you don't want
pollutants in your semiconductors, pharmaceuticals, etc.)


We were at one time using it to cool a component at 8kV above ground. I
reiterate my point for the hard of hearing - engineers fall foul of the
belief that DI water is harmless to metals with monotonous regularity.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

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