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micky
Guest

Tue Dec 18, 2018 6:45 pm   



OT Extracting code from chips, deompiling


What is the current status of things.

1) Primarily, if a chip has computer code burned into it, can the code
be retrieved by someone in possession of the chip?**

2) Assuming the answer to 1 is yes, what is the state of decompiling?
Without the comments and data types, how often can the logic or the
exact pre-compiled code be determined well enough to make one's own
devices?

**Related to this, 3) can the circuity in an IC or LSIC, intergrated
circuit or iirc large scale integrated circuit, be determined by
disassembling the IC?

Is stealing design secrets harder than when everything was mechanical?
Much harder? Impossible?

Terry Schwartz
Guest

Tue Dec 18, 2018 6:45 pm   



That's a big question. Some chips have built in security and some are wide open, depends on the programmer and the chips capabilities.

Decompiling is another matter. While it may be possible to extract the code in some cases, it may not be useful once you have it.

Reverse engineering a chip by disassembling the chip itself would be near impossible for Joe Average. Maybe the NSA can do it with sophisticated tools.

Finally... theft of intellectual property is still theft.


On Tuesday, December 18, 2018 at 10:48:32 AM UTC-6, micky wrote:
Quote:
OT Extracting code from chips, deompiling


What is the current status of things.

1) Primarily, if a chip has computer code burned into it, can the code
be retrieved by someone in possession of the chip?**

2) Assuming the answer to 1 is yes, what is the state of decompiling?
Without the comments and data types, how often can the logic or the
exact pre-compiled code be determined well enough to make one's own
devices?

**Related to this, 3) can the circuity in an IC or LSIC, intergrated
circuit or iirc large scale integrated circuit, be determined by
disassembling the IC?

Is stealing design secrets harder than when everything was mechanical?
Much harder? Impossible?


Phil Hobbs
Guest

Tue Dec 18, 2018 6:45 pm   



On 12/18/18 11:48 AM, micky wrote:
Quote:
OT Extracting code from chips, deompiling


What is the current status of things.

1) Primarily, if a chip has computer code burned into it, can the code
be retrieved by someone in possession of the chip?**


Usually. If the code protection modes aren't enabled, you can just read
it back over the JTAG connector.

Quote:

2) Assuming the answer to 1 is yes, what is the state of decompiling?
Without the comments and data types, how often can the logic or the
exact pre-compiled code be determined well enough to make one's own
devices?


Dunno. If you have the binary, you can disassemble it, for sure.

Quote:

**Related to this, 3) can the circuity in an IC or LSIC, intergrated
circuit or iirc large scale integrated circuit, be determined by
disassembling the IC?


Yes. There are outfits that specialize in decapping ICs and producing
transistor-level schematics, including estimated transistor
characteristics from doping profiles, area, and so on. It's a very
mainstream thing to do, but it costs a lot so you don't do it for niche
products.

IIRC they can also read out the flash by probing the decapped chip.

Quote:

Is stealing design secrets harder than when everything was mechanical?
Much harder? Impossible?


Mechanical parts can have all sorts of secrets, e.g. for metals, cold
working, heat treatment, surface modification (case hardening or
metalliding), powder metallurgy and hot isostatic pressing (HIPping).

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics

160 North State Road #203
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

hobbs at electrooptical dot net
http://electrooptical.net

Phil Hobbs
Guest

Tue Dec 18, 2018 6:45 pm   



On 12/18/18 11:57 AM, Terry Schwartz wrote:

Quote:

On Tuesday, December 18, 2018 at 10:48:32 AM UTC-6, micky wrote:
OT Extracting code from chips, deompiling


What is the current status of things.

1) Primarily, if a chip has computer code burned into it, can the code
be retrieved by someone in possession of the chip?**

2) Assuming the answer to 1 is yes, what is the state of decompiling?
Without the comments and data types, how often can the logic or the
exact pre-compiled code be determined well enough to make one's own
devices?

**Related to this, 3) can the circuity in an IC or LSIC, intergrated
circuit or iirc large scale integrated circuit, be determined by
disassembling the IC?

Is stealing design secrets harder than when everything was mechanical?
Much harder? Impossible?

(Top posting fixed)


Quote:
That's a big question. Some chips have built in security and some are
wide open, depends on the programmer and the chips capabilities.

Decompiling is another matter. While it may be possible to extract
the code in some cases, it may not be useful once you have it.

Reverse engineering a chip by disassembling the chip itself would be

near impossible for Joe Average. Maybe the NSA can do it with
sophisticated tools.
Quote:

Finally... theft of intellectual property is still theft.


Reverse engineering is legal everywhere AFAIK. It doesn't get you
around patents or copyrights, but any trade secret that can be
discovered by examining an article offered for sale is no longer a trade
secret. That includes the ideas in the binary, but not their
expression, i.e. the binary itself, which is copyrighted.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics

160 North State Road #203
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

hobbs at electrooptical dot net
http://electrooptical.net

David B.
Guest

Tue Dec 18, 2018 6:45 pm   



On 18/12/2018 17:04, Phil Hobbs wrote:
[....]
Quote:
Cheers

Phil Hobbs


Moving even further off topic!

Hi Phil :-)

May I ask a favour?

Will you, please, explain in simple terms, why YOU are happy to publish
your personal details on-line when so much is written about how one
should be really careful about maintaining personal privacy? Some folk,
I've noticed, are most reluctant to even put their BUSINESS information
out on the Internet!

I simply do not understand why any good and honest citizen should live
their life in fear.

--
With kind regards,
David B.

My Blog about Dustin Cook: https://vxer.home.blog/2018/12/08/vxer-a-profile/

BurfordTJustice
Guest

Tue Dec 18, 2018 7:45 pm   



cause he is not in a third world shithole like Brazil?


"David B." <"David B"@nomail.afraid.org> wrote in message
news:XkaSD.2981$922.936_at_fx06.fr7...
: On 18/12/2018 17:04, Phil Hobbs wrote:
: [....]
: > Cheers
: >
: > Phil Hobbs
:
: Moving even further off topic!
:
: Hi Phil Smile
:
: May I ask a favour?
:
: Will you, please, explain in simple terms, why YOU are happy to publish
: your personal details on-line when so much is written about how one
: should be really careful about maintaining personal privacy? Some folk,
: I've noticed, are most reluctant to even put their BUSINESS information
: out on the Internet!
:
: I simply do not understand why any good and honest citizen should live
: their life in fear.
:
: --
: With kind regards,
: David B.
:
: My Blog about Dustin Cook:
https://vxer.home.blog/2018/12/08/vxer-a-profile/

Shadow
Guest

Tue Dec 18, 2018 7:45 pm   



On Tue, 18 Dec 2018 17:43:15 +0000, "David B." <"David
B"@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:

>Moving even further off topic!

Why change the thread ? Oh, I see.
Quote:

Hi Phil :(

May I ask a favour?

Will you, please, explain in simple terms, why YOU are happy to publish
your personal details on-line when so much is written about how one
should be really careful about maintaining personal privacy?


He probably doesn't know you.

If he reads this carefully

https://tekrider.net/pages/david-brooks-stalker.php

He will. I hope.
YW
[]'s
--
Don't be evil - Google 2004
We have a new policy - Google 2012

David B.
Guest

Tue Dec 18, 2018 8:45 pm   



On 18/12/2018 18:48, Phil Hobbs wrote:
Quote:
On 12/18/18 12:43 PM, David B. wrote:
On 18/12/2018 17:04, Phil Hobbs wrote:
[....]
Cheers

Phil Hobbs

Moving even further off topic!

Hi Phil :-)

May I ask a favour?

Will you, please, explain in simple terms, why YOU are happy to
publish your personal details on-line when so much is written about
how one should be really careful about maintaining personal privacy?
Some folk, I've noticed, are most reluctant to even put their BUSINESS
information out on the Internet!

I simply do not understand why any good and honest citizen should live
their life in fear.


Well, I'm self-employed, and expect to be for the rest of my career, so
I don't have to worry about being ratted out to management or subjected
to re-education to keep my job, or things like that.


Understood!

Quote:
Second, my posts are generally helpful, good-tempered, and as accurate
as I can make them, so there's not much danger of reputation damage. One
exception is if some prospective customer doesn't like my politics and
cares enough about it to not do business with me, in which case I'm
happy to have them self-select.  (I don't talk politics with customers.)


I'd have no hesitation in asking for, and following, your advice.

Quote:
Third, putting my contact info and a few keywords in my sig is a
surprisingly effective SEO strategy.  SED is widely mirrored on sites
like narkive and electronics-related, so there are lots of links.


Good thinking! :-)

Quote:
Fourth, I'm a Christian, so there's nothing very important that any
temporal power can do to me anyway.  (They can make life temporarily
unpleasant, of course.)


Ah! THAT's the secret! I'm a Christian too! :-D

https://thoughtcatalog.com/rania-naim/2017/11/if-you-trust-god-youll-never-be-afraid/

Quote:
Cheers

Phil Hobbs


Many thanks, Phil. Pleased to meet you.

--
Regards,
David B.

Phil Hobbs
Guest

Tue Dec 18, 2018 8:45 pm   



On 12/18/18 12:43 PM, David B. wrote:
Quote:
On 18/12/2018 17:04, Phil Hobbs wrote:
[....]
Cheers

Phil Hobbs

Moving even further off topic!

Hi Phil :-)

May I ask a favour?

Will you, please, explain in simple terms, why YOU are happy to publish
your personal details on-line when so much is written about how one
should be really careful about maintaining personal privacy? Some folk,
I've noticed, are most reluctant to even put their BUSINESS information
out on the Internet!

I simply do not understand why any good and honest citizen should live
their life in fear.


Well, I'm self-employed, and expect to be for the rest of my career, so
I don't have to worry about being ratted out to management or subjected
to re-education to keep my job, or things like that.

Second, my posts are generally helpful, good-tempered, and as accurate
as I can make them, so there's not much danger of reputation damage.
One exception is if some prospective customer doesn't like my politics
and cares enough about it to not do business with me, in which case I'm
happy to have them self-select. (I don't talk politics with customers.)

Third, putting my contact info and a few keywords in my sig is a
surprisingly effective SEO strategy. SED is widely mirrored on sites
like narkive and electronics-related, so there are lots of links.

Fourth, I'm a Christian, so there's nothing very important that any
temporal power can do to me anyway. (They can make life temporarily
unpleasant, of course.)

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

http://electrooptical.net
http://hobbs-eo.com

David B.
Guest

Tue Dec 18, 2018 8:45 pm   



On 18/12/2018 18:00, Shadow wrote:
Quote:
On Tue, 18 Dec 2018 17:43:15 +0000, "David B." <"David
B"@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:

Moving even further off topic!

Why change the thread ? Oh, I see.

Hi Phil :(

May I ask a favour?

Will you, please, explain in simple terms, why YOU are happy to publish
your personal details on-line when so much is written about how one
should be really careful about maintaining personal privacy?

He probably doesn't know you.

If he reads this carefully

hxxps://tekrider.net/pages/david-brooks-stalker.php

He will. I hope.
YW
[]'s


It's now apparent that he and I are already part of the body of Christ.

When was the malware removed from the destination of that link, Shadow?

--
Regards,
David B.

Shadow
Guest

Tue Dec 18, 2018 9:45 pm   



On Tue, 18 Dec 2018 19:41:25 +0000, "David B." <"David
B"@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:

Quote:
On 18/12/2018 18:00, Shadow wrote:
On Tue, 18 Dec 2018 17:43:15 +0000, "David B." <"David
B"@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:

Moving even further off topic!

Why change the thread ? Oh, I see.

Hi Phil :(

May I ask a favour?

Will you, please, explain in simple terms, why YOU are happy to publish
your personal details on-line when so much is written about how one
should be really careful about maintaining personal privacy?

He probably doesn't know you.

If he reads this carefully

https://tekrider.net/pages/david-brooks-stalker.php

He will. I hope.
YW
[]'s

It's now apparent that he and I are already part of the body of Christ.

When was the malware removed from the destination of that link, Shadow?


According to WOT, it has NEVER housed malware. In fact, I'm
sure Phil can check it out for himself.
Have you sent him an email asking him to crack a site for you
yet ? And threatened to report him for pedo porn if he doesn't, or
haven't you got through the usual foreplay yet ?
[]'s
--
Don't be evil - Google 2004
We have a new policy - Google 2012

Jeff Liebermann
Guest

Tue Dec 18, 2018 9:45 pm   



On Tue, 18 Dec 2018 12:04:17 -0500, Phil Hobbs
<pcdhSpamMeSenseless_at_electrooptical.net> wrote:

Quote:
Mechanical parts can have all sorts of secrets, e.g. for metals, cold
working, heat treatment, surface modification (case hardening or
metalliding), powder metallurgy and hot isostatic pressing (HIPping).


Those can all be reverse engineered given expertise, time, and proper
equipment. However, the one thing that cannot be reverse engineered
in a mechanical system are the product tolerances. This becomes
critical when dealing with tiny parts like MEMS devices, rotating
memory components, and tight tolerance fasteners. Long ago, I was
marginally involved in some industrial espionage. The only things
taken were some key component tolerances. Everything else could be
deduced or measured from the purchased product.

Also, the end result of reverse engineering is not always an exact
clone of the original product. More commonly, it's a "work alike"
device, that has all the key features and patent violations, and
carries its own collection of component and product tolerances. Close
is usually good enough.



--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl_at_cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

David B.
Guest

Tue Dec 18, 2018 10:45 pm   



On 18/12/2018 20:04, Shadow wrote:
Quote:
On Tue, 18 Dec 2018 19:41:25 +0000, "David B." <"David
B"@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:

On 18/12/2018 18:00, Shadow wrote:
On Tue, 18 Dec 2018 17:43:15 +0000, "David B." <"David
B"@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:

Moving even further off topic!

Why change the thread ? Oh, I see.

Hi Phil :(

May I ask a favour?

Will you, please, explain in simple terms, why YOU are happy to publish
your personal details on-line when so much is written about how one
should be really careful about maintaining personal privacy?

He probably doesn't know you.

If he reads this carefully

hxxps://tekrider.net/pages/david-brooks-stalker.php

He will. I hope.
YW
[]'s

It's now apparent that he and I are already part of the body of Christ.

When was the malware removed from the destination of that link, Shadow?

According to WOT, it has NEVER housed malware. In fact, I'm
sure Phil can check it out for himself.


Then WOT must be incorrect.

Here's visual proof that the site DID house malware:-

https://www.dropbox.com/s/6nj382qhv4wzmju/Tekrider.net%20-%20Infected%20with%20malware%20%28Sucuri%29.tiff?dl=0

I've little doubt that Phil will be able to look after himself.

Quote:
Have you sent him an email asking him to crack a site for you
yet ? And threatened to report him for pedo porn if he doesn't, or
haven't you got through the usual foreplay yet ?
[]'s


No. You may twist things, Shadow, but you'll never change the truth.

You've been helping the Devil to do his work and that will not be forgotten.

--
David B.

Mike
Guest

Tue Dec 18, 2018 10:45 pm   



In article <pp8i1e598ivqknbj6msshr6ijc6ppm2051_at_4ax.com>,
micky <NONONOmisc07_at_bigfoot.com> wrote:

Quote:
**Related to this, 3) can the circuity in an IC or LSIC, intergrated
circuit or iirc large scale integrated circuit, be determined by
disassembling the IC?


Yes. There's a fair few people chemically/mechanically de-encapsulating
old chips where the design documents are lost/unavailable, and given
a good enough picture of the bare die, and some optical analysis, you
can recover the circuit with reasonable accuracy.

It's been done with Sinclair related ULAs/CLAs, and similar
projects for other 1980s era chips.

How hard this gets on modern technology, where everything is tinier,
layered, and sometimes designed deliberately to thwart reverse
engineering is another thing ...

From raw pictures, to schematics and working simulation of an
Oric ULA, documented in detail here. NSA not involved :)

http://oric.signal11.org.uk/html/ula-dieshot.htm

http://oric.signal11.org.uk/files/pub/ula-dieshot/OricAtmosUnofficialULAGuide-2.00-WithSchems.pdf
--
--------------------------------------+------------------------------------
Mike Brown: mjb[-at-]signal11.org.uk | http://www.signal11.org.uk

Shadow
Guest

Tue Dec 18, 2018 10:45 pm   



On Tue, 18 Dec 2018 20:48:35 +0000, "David B." <"David
B"@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:

Quote:
On 18/12/2018 20:04, Shadow wrote:
On Tue, 18 Dec 2018 19:41:25 +0000, "David B." <"David
B"@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:

On 18/12/2018 18:00, Shadow wrote:
On Tue, 18 Dec 2018 17:43:15 +0000, "David B." <"David
B"@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:

Moving even further off topic!

Why change the thread ? Oh, I see.

Hi Phil :(

May I ask a favour?

Will you, please, explain in simple terms, why YOU are happy to publish
your personal details on-line when so much is written about how one
should be really careful about maintaining personal privacy?

He probably doesn't know you.

If he reads this carefully

https://tekrider.net/pages/david-brooks-stalker.php

He will. I hope.
YW
[]'s

It's now apparent that he and I are already part of the body of Christ.


Well, the drinking the wine part might be possible.
Quote:

When was the malware removed from the destination of that link, Shadow?

According to WOT, it has NEVER housed malware. In fact, I'm
sure Phil can check it out for himself.

Then WOT must be incorrect.


And you, an "expert on decompiling binary code from hardware
chips" (why else would you crash the thread) are correct ?
Quote:

Here's visual proof that the site DID house malware:-

https://www.dropbox.com/CUT_POSSIBLE_MALWARE_DOWNLOAD


Javascript is NOT malware, per se.
You accused the site owner of hosting malware on 8 newsgroups,
but only apologized on 2 when Sucuri admitted it made a mistake
because of the hosts file. That was almost 2 years ago. A lifetime for
your drunken memory.

If I'm wrong, post a DIRECT link to the Sucuri analysis.

Quote:
I've little doubt that Phil will be able to look after himself.

Have you sent him an email asking him to crack a site for you
yet ? And threatened to report him for pedo porn if he doesn't, or
haven't you got through the usual foreplay yet ?
[]'s

No. You may twist things, Shadow, but you'll never change the truth.


Just tell us what part of the webpage about you is not true,
and I'll ask the owner to change it. Maybe add some new nyms he forgot
about ?
[]'s
--
Don't be evil - Google 2004
We have a new policy - Google 2012

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