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Winston
Guest
Guest
Wed Sep 08, 2010 7:56 pm
On 9/8/2010 10:21 AM, John Fields wrote:
Quote:
On Tue, 07 Sep 2010 15:09:27 -0700, Winston<Winston_at_bigbrother.net
wrote:
wrote:
(...)
Quote:
I'm saying the equivalent of: "It is risky to run while
holding scissors. I don't and I wish others would at
least *think* about it before strapping on their sneakers."
---
The analogy is weak because it's never a good reason to run with
scissors, while in some cases it may be necessary or desirable to wash
a battery down with a baking soda-water solution, or even to directly
apply baking soda powder to the battery.
---
holding scissors. I don't and I wish others would at
least *think* about it before strapping on their sneakers."
---
The analogy is weak because it's never a good reason to run with
scissors, while in some cases it may be necessary or desirable to wash
a battery down with a baking soda-water solution, or even to directly
apply baking soda powder to the battery.
---
Sure! Is the battery cracked and leaking?
Is the battery on fire?
I would apply several pounds of baking soda!
(Welcome back, John.)
Quote:
You are saying that running with scissors can be
perfectly safe if a simple precaution is taken.
---
Your analogy is still weak, but if we _must_ use it, then yes; the
simple precaution being that of carrying the scissors in a closed
case.
If that simple precaution isn't followed, (that of making certain that
the battery cells remains sealed during the baking soda treatment and
following thorough water rinse), I'm saying that a simple medical
procedure promptly followed (addition of enough acid to bring the
electrolyte to the required pH) after the accident, will negate the
effect of the accident.
---
perfectly safe if a simple precaution is taken.
---
Your analogy is still weak, but if we _must_ use it, then yes; the
simple precaution being that of carrying the scissors in a closed
case.
If that simple precaution isn't followed, (that of making certain that
the battery cells remains sealed during the baking soda treatment and
following thorough water rinse), I'm saying that a simple medical
procedure promptly followed (addition of enough acid to bring the
electrolyte to the required pH) after the accident, will negate the
effect of the accident.
---
We have agreed to disagree on that point.
Neither of us have provided scientific data to support
our opinions. Sad, but there it is.
Quote:
You insist on solid statistical data regarding the number
of injuries sustained while running with scissors
before allowing that running with scissors is likely
to be risky under most circumstances for most people.
---
No, before believing that irreversible damage is done by introducing
NaHCO3 into a flooded lead-acid cell, I insist on data regarding the
effects on the performance and life of a flooded lead-acid cell, over
a protracted period of time, by the introduction of NaHCO3 into the
cell, and the possibility of mediation of damage by the prompt
addition of sufficient acid to bring the pH of the cell to its proper
level.
Running with scissors is a totally separate issue.
---
I have no data. I am not interested in gathering the
data. It costs me nothing to walk while holding scissors.
In the absence of several double-blind peer-reviewed studies
conducted at Ivy League schools that find the opposite to
be a more correct finding, I will continue to believe
that everyone is likely to be safer and happier if they
walk carefully while holding any sharp tool.
---
The self-protecting sarcasm after the admission of ignorance is
noted...
---
of injuries sustained while running with scissors
before allowing that running with scissors is likely
to be risky under most circumstances for most people.
---
No, before believing that irreversible damage is done by introducing
NaHCO3 into a flooded lead-acid cell, I insist on data regarding the
effects on the performance and life of a flooded lead-acid cell, over
a protracted period of time, by the introduction of NaHCO3 into the
cell, and the possibility of mediation of damage by the prompt
addition of sufficient acid to bring the pH of the cell to its proper
level.
Running with scissors is a totally separate issue.
---
I have no data. I am not interested in gathering the
data. It costs me nothing to walk while holding scissors.
In the absence of several double-blind peer-reviewed studies
conducted at Ivy League schools that find the opposite to
be a more correct finding, I will continue to believe
that everyone is likely to be safer and happier if they
walk carefully while holding any sharp tool.
---
The self-protecting sarcasm after the admission of ignorance is
noted...
---
I meant every word literally at face value.
No sarcasm intended.
Quote:
---
_We_???
There _is_ no "we".
---
Whoa. You sure rile easy, John. :)
---
That depends on the riler.
_We_???
There _is_ no "we".
---
Whoa. You sure rile easy, John. :)
---
That depends on the riler.
You'd grant me that level of control over your emotions?
Quote:
My position is that, at this time, I don't want to consider being
associated with you in other than an adversarial relationship.
---
associated with you in other than an adversarial relationship.
---
I don't understand why you feel that way but I accept your
feelings.
(...)
Quote:
I continue to agree with your statement "... when baking soda is added
to the electrolyte it reduces the amount af acid in the cell ..".
---
Well, then, "we" agree on that point.
---
to the electrolyte it reduces the amount af acid in the cell ..".
---
Well, then, "we" agree on that point.
---
Huzzah!
Quote:
It also (which is what you seem to have trouble with) creates one
molecule of sodium sulfate which does nothing but dissolve into the
electrolyte.
Yes. Who cares?
---
Since you didn't seem to understand, earlier, the role that the sodium
sulfate didn't play, apparently you care.
---
Let me check. Hold on. Nope. Still don't care.
---
OK, got it:
"Didn't know, didn't care, do know, still don't care"
---
molecule of sodium sulfate which does nothing but dissolve into the
electrolyte.
Yes. Who cares?
---
Since you didn't seem to understand, earlier, the role that the sodium
sulfate didn't play, apparently you care.
---
Let me check. Hold on. Nope. Still don't care.
---
OK, got it:
"Didn't know, didn't care, do know, still don't care"
---
About sodium sulfate? Nope. Still don't care.
Quote:
Even this afternoon?
---
You don't wear smug very well, especially with egg on your face.
---
I was just asking if we still agreed or not.
Apparently we do. Good! :)
---
You were asking nothing of the sort; what you were trying to do was
put me on the defensive.
---
Do you normally get defensive when confronted with a smug
guy wearing egg on his face?
---
No, I usually get offensive.
---
---
You don't wear smug very well, especially with egg on your face.
---
I was just asking if we still agreed or not.
Apparently we do. Good! :)
---
You were asking nothing of the sort; what you were trying to do was
put me on the defensive.
---
Do you normally get defensive when confronted with a smug
guy wearing egg on his face?
---
No, I usually get offensive.
---
I'm hip. Why is that?
Quote:
The cell is compromised and does not perform nearly as well
as it did before.
---
Really?
(Whoops. Spoke too soon.)
Yup. Increasing the pH of the electrolyte in that cell will imbalance
the performance of the cell vis a vis the other cells in series with it.
This will result in accelerated damage and eventually the early failure
of the battery as a whole, as compared to the reliability of a properly
maintained battery.
---
That's what you keep saying, but you offer only opinion, rather than
fact, to back it up.
---
Yup. This is USENET. Nobody needed to prove anything before, so
why start now?
---
Copout.
Regardless of the venue, if you want what you say to be considered
factual, you must prove it.
---
as it did before.
---
Really?
(Whoops. Spoke too soon.)
Yup. Increasing the pH of the electrolyte in that cell will imbalance
the performance of the cell vis a vis the other cells in series with it.
This will result in accelerated damage and eventually the early failure
of the battery as a whole, as compared to the reliability of a properly
maintained battery.
---
That's what you keep saying, but you offer only opinion, rather than
fact, to back it up.
---
Yup. This is USENET. Nobody needed to prove anything before, so
why start now?
---
Copout.
Regardless of the venue, if you want what you say to be considered
factual, you must prove it.
---
Heh! No. There would be no USENET if we had to support our beliefs
with scientific data. USENET is opinion, mostly. (IMHO)
Quote:
Instead of pontificating
Have I really been pompous or patronizing John? :)
---
More like condescending.
---
I'm a pontifical, stupid, smug, uneducated, half-baked, condescending,
pompous, persistent, nauseating guy with egg on my face?
---
More or less, yes.
---
Have I really been pompous or patronizing John? :)
---
More like condescending.
---
I'm a pontifical, stupid, smug, uneducated, half-baked, condescending,
pompous, persistent, nauseating guy with egg on my face?
---
More or less, yes.
---
Can you cite the double - blind, peer - reviewed studies supporting
that conclusion or is it just another USENET opinion. :)
Quote:
Would you say I'm more pompous than smug or more stupid than
pontifical?
---
More pompous than smug and more pontifical than stupid.
---
More persistent than nauseating?
---
Yes, and annoying as well.
---
Why did I put egg on my face? Lack of education?
---
Probably.
---
pontifical?
---
More pompous than smug and more pontifical than stupid.
---
More persistent than nauseating?
---
Yes, and annoying as well.
---
Why did I put egg on my face? Lack of education?
---
Probably.
---
I shall put that on my resume.
Quote:
with some half-baked, uneducated guess, how
about if you define "nearly" and then do a little research and come up
with some numbers to back it up?
---
Because I have other, more important things to do with limited resources
and time.
---
Then I suggest you quit this thread and get on with it.
---
You do as well, I assume.
---
You assume incorrectly.
---
Then I am sad for you.
---
I see, everyone should be like you.
---
about if you define "nearly" and then do a little research and come up
with some numbers to back it up?
---
Because I have other, more important things to do with limited resources
and time.
---
Then I suggest you quit this thread and get on with it.
---
You do as well, I assume.
---
You assume incorrectly.
---
Then I am sad for you.
---
I see, everyone should be like you.
---
Friendly. Curious. Involved. Concerned. Generous. Thoughtful. Gregarious.
Yes, I agree with you.
Quote:
Whether a cell was "damaged" or not depends on how much NaHCO3 was
allowed to fall into it and how long before the lost acid was
replenished.
Yes. I agree. The effect of a few molecules of baking powder can
probably be overridden by a good equalizing charge.
---
It's not baking powder, it's baking soda,
Got me! Baking soda is the correct term.
Forgive my hyperbole.
---
Hyperbole? Hardly!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperbole
---
"...a rhetorical device in which statements are exaggerated.
It may be used to evoke strong feelings or to create a strong
impression, but is not meant to be taken literally."
My tongue - in - cheek statement about 'a few molecules' is
hyperbole, intended to emphasize my concern about bases and
wet cell lead acid batteries.
---
The point made was that you incorrectly identified the base as baking
powder, which has nothing to do with the amount of base introduced
into the cell.
allowed to fall into it and how long before the lost acid was
replenished.
Yes. I agree. The effect of a few molecules of baking powder can
probably be overridden by a good equalizing charge.
---
It's not baking powder, it's baking soda,
Got me! Baking soda is the correct term.
Forgive my hyperbole.
---
Hyperbole? Hardly!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperbole
---
"...a rhetorical device in which statements are exaggerated.
It may be used to evoke strong feelings or to create a strong
impression, but is not meant to be taken literally."
My tongue - in - cheek statement about 'a few molecules' is
hyperbole, intended to emphasize my concern about bases and
wet cell lead acid batteries.
---
The point made was that you incorrectly identified the base as baking
powder, which has nothing to do with the amount of base introduced
into the cell.
OTOH, you had baking soda as the only thing left in the cell
after the reaction. We'll call it a draw.
Quote:
Consequently, your smartass "request for forgiveness" had nothing to
do with hyperbole and was merely an attempt to negate the effect of
yoyur error.
---
do with hyperbole and was merely an attempt to negate the effect of
yoyur error.
---
I forgive your boo - boo, too John.
"..two molecules.." was not intended literally.
Quote:
The fact remains that bases
and wet cell lead acid batteries don't mix.
---
Oil and water don't mix, but baking soda and sulfuric acid certainly
do, which is part of the reason for the problem.
---
How can we avoid this problem?
---
Education.
---
and wet cell lead acid batteries don't mix.
---
Oil and water don't mix, but baking soda and sulfuric acid certainly
do, which is part of the reason for the problem.
---
How can we avoid this problem?
---
Education.
---
We agree twice in one day! Good!
Quote:
Neither of us has the time, resources and inclination to do
the real science,
---
You asked about being pompous earlier; well, there you have it.
---
Pompous?
Ah! in relation to being accused of pontification!
---
No, in relation to your assuming that you know best what I should do
with my time and resources, and that my inclination to do the real
science should be the same as yours in order to make your position
more secure.
---
the real science,
---
You asked about being pompous earlier; well, there you have it.
---
Pompous?
Ah! in relation to being accused of pontification!
---
No, in relation to your assuming that you know best what I should do
with my time and resources, and that my inclination to do the real
science should be the same as yours in order to make your position
more secure.
---
I still don't have the time, resources or inclination to do the science.
I assumed that this issue was as relatively unimportant to you as
it is to me.
I merely asked if you were really indicating that you were interested
in scientifically studying the issue.
You implied that you had the time, resources and inclination to do the
real science; I was merely being supportive of that. I remain so.
(...)
Quote:
*I* don't have the time, resources and inclination.
Are you saying that you do? That's great news!
Please let me know when your paper exits peer review.
---
Why?
You obviously wouldn't understand it, so what would be the point?
---
Are you saying that you do? That's great news!
Please let me know when your paper exits peer review.
---
Why?
You obviously wouldn't understand it, so what would be the point?
---
We are surrounded by folks who would appreciate a solid
scientific foundation rather than have to listen to more
'hand waving', IMHO.
Besides, I *love* to read stuff that I don't understand! :)
(...)
Quote:
And what the fuck is it with you and your persistent and nauseating:
"Let's agree to this" and "Let's agree to that" bleating?
It's part of my pontifical, smug, condescending, pompous personality.
---
Well, there is that, but I think it's more like trying to make
yourself feel less alone by creating synthetic bonds.
---
"Let's agree to this" and "Let's agree to that" bleating?
It's part of my pontifical, smug, condescending, pompous personality.
---
Well, there is that, but I think it's more like trying to make
yourself feel less alone by creating synthetic bonds.
---
I always was gregarious.
Quote:
Never mind, I quit.
Your wisdom becomes apparent. :)
---
You're learning...
BTW, I lied about quitting.
Your wisdom becomes apparent. :)
---
You're learning...
BTW, I lied about quitting.
Your wisdom pales in comparison to your honesty.
--Winston
JosephKK
Guest
Guest
Wed Sep 08, 2010 10:23 pm
On Tue, 07 Sep 2010 13:44:18 +0100, Martin Brown
<|||newspam|||@nezumi.demon.co.uk> wrote:
Quote:
On 07/09/2010 12:43, JosephKK wrote:
On Mon, 06 Sep 2010 13:15:39 -0700, Winston<Winston_at_bigbrother.net
wrote:
On 9/6/2010 10:10 AM, JosephKK wrote:
On Sun, 05 Sep 2010 16:01:25 -0700, Winston<Winston_at_bigbrother.net
wrote:
On 9/5/2010 4:12 AM, John Fields wrote:
On Sat, 04 Sep 2010 13:32:42 -0700, Winston<Winston_at_bigbrother.net
wrote:
On 9/4/2010 10:29 AM, John Fields wrote:
On Sat, 04 Sep 2010 09:11:54 -0700, Winston<Winston_at_bigbrother.net
wrote:
(...)
Let's agree to disagree about the wisdom of exposing a
lead acid wet cell to a basic slurry.
One final swat, bicarbonate of soda is a weak acid. Dissolve some in
water and measure the pH (before and after if you need to).
This is total gibberish. The pH of aqueous sodium bicarbonate is around
8.3 and it doesn't dissolve particularly well in water.
Sodium bicarbonate is well known as the mildest of the sodium alkalis
which makes it useful for mopping up acid spills. It is used in cooking.
Compared to battery acid, Sodium bicarbonate is basic (more alkaline).
It is clear you do not appear to quite understand the concept of weak
acid. Washing ammonia is also a weak acid.
No. It is *very* clear that you do not understand this stuff at all.
What do you mean by washing ammonia? Aqueous solutions of ammonia are
strongly alkaline. Not quite as potent as caustic soda but still strong.
Ammonia can technically behave as a weak acid in some circumstances but
that is not helpful in this discussion.
Sodium bicarbonate is an amphoteric compound.
True so far. And a property that earned it the nickname "washing
soda".
Wrong again. Sodium bicarbonate (sodium hydrogen carbonate in modern
parlance) is *BAKING* soda. It is normally a very weak base.
http://chemicalland21.com/industrialchem/inorganic/SODIUM%20BICARBONATE.htm
Washing soda is (di)sodium carbonate and a lot more soluble in water and
a moderate alkali at about pH 11.6 in water. The surface of washing soda
crystals is inclined to react with atmospheric CO2 in moist conditions
and form a layer of the less soluble sodium bicarbonate.
http://chemicalland21.com/industrialchem/inorganic/SODIUM%20CARBONATE.htm
And finally sodium hydroxide is a vicious alkali with pH around 14.
http://chemicalland21.com/industrialchem/inorganic/CAUSTIC%20SODA.htm
Absolutely clueless does not do justice to your claimed knowledge.
Add it (in solution) to either an acid or to a strong base and it
will tend to push either mixture toward neutrality (pH of ~ 7).
Is that incorrect, Joseph?
It isn't so effective on strong alkalis and caustic. But in large
amounts it will help soak up any spills and bring the pH away from the
dangerously corrosive to skin levels. It is useful for this purpose in
labs - you can't do much harm with it on most chemical spills.
Well, make that strong acid as well as strong base.
And in solution by itself, it is not neutral but lowers pH.
Total rubbish. What planet are you on? What have you been smoking?
Aqueous sodium bicarbonate 0.1M is pH 8.3 see for example its MSDS
Regards,
Martin Brown
On Mon, 06 Sep 2010 13:15:39 -0700, Winston<Winston_at_bigbrother.net
wrote:
On 9/6/2010 10:10 AM, JosephKK wrote:
On Sun, 05 Sep 2010 16:01:25 -0700, Winston<Winston_at_bigbrother.net
wrote:
On 9/5/2010 4:12 AM, John Fields wrote:
On Sat, 04 Sep 2010 13:32:42 -0700, Winston<Winston_at_bigbrother.net
wrote:
On 9/4/2010 10:29 AM, John Fields wrote:
On Sat, 04 Sep 2010 09:11:54 -0700, Winston<Winston_at_bigbrother.net
wrote:
(...)
Let's agree to disagree about the wisdom of exposing a
lead acid wet cell to a basic slurry.
One final swat, bicarbonate of soda is a weak acid. Dissolve some in
water and measure the pH (before and after if you need to).
This is total gibberish. The pH of aqueous sodium bicarbonate is around
8.3 and it doesn't dissolve particularly well in water.
Sodium bicarbonate is well known as the mildest of the sodium alkalis
which makes it useful for mopping up acid spills. It is used in cooking.
Compared to battery acid, Sodium bicarbonate is basic (more alkaline).
It is clear you do not appear to quite understand the concept of weak
acid. Washing ammonia is also a weak acid.
No. It is *very* clear that you do not understand this stuff at all.
What do you mean by washing ammonia? Aqueous solutions of ammonia are
strongly alkaline. Not quite as potent as caustic soda but still strong.
Ammonia can technically behave as a weak acid in some circumstances but
that is not helpful in this discussion.
Sodium bicarbonate is an amphoteric compound.
True so far. And a property that earned it the nickname "washing
soda".
Wrong again. Sodium bicarbonate (sodium hydrogen carbonate in modern
parlance) is *BAKING* soda. It is normally a very weak base.
http://chemicalland21.com/industrialchem/inorganic/SODIUM%20BICARBONATE.htm
Washing soda is (di)sodium carbonate and a lot more soluble in water and
a moderate alkali at about pH 11.6 in water. The surface of washing soda
crystals is inclined to react with atmospheric CO2 in moist conditions
and form a layer of the less soluble sodium bicarbonate.
http://chemicalland21.com/industrialchem/inorganic/SODIUM%20CARBONATE.htm
And finally sodium hydroxide is a vicious alkali with pH around 14.
http://chemicalland21.com/industrialchem/inorganic/CAUSTIC%20SODA.htm
Absolutely clueless does not do justice to your claimed knowledge.
Add it (in solution) to either an acid or to a strong base and it
will tend to push either mixture toward neutrality (pH of ~ 7).
Is that incorrect, Joseph?
It isn't so effective on strong alkalis and caustic. But in large
amounts it will help soak up any spills and bring the pH away from the
dangerously corrosive to skin levels. It is useful for this purpose in
labs - you can't do much harm with it on most chemical spills.
Well, make that strong acid as well as strong base.
And in solution by itself, it is not neutral but lowers pH.
Total rubbish. What planet are you on? What have you been smoking?
Aqueous sodium bicarbonate 0.1M is pH 8.3 see for example its MSDS
Regards,
Martin Brown
Wow, did i ever screw up on this one.
John Fields
Guest
Guest
Thu Sep 09, 2010 2:08 pm
On Wed, 08 Sep 2010 11:56:47 -0700, Winston <Winston_at_bigbrother.net>
wrote:
Quote:
On 9/8/2010 10:21 AM, John Fields wrote:
On Tue, 07 Sep 2010 15:09:27 -0700, Winston<Winston_at_bigbrother.net
wrote:
(...)
I'm saying the equivalent of: "It is risky to run while
holding scissors. I don't and I wish others would at
least *think* about it before strapping on their sneakers."
---
The analogy is weak because it's never a good reason to run with
scissors, while in some cases it may be necessary or desirable to wash
a battery down with a baking soda-water solution, or even to directly
apply baking soda powder to the battery.
---
Sure! Is the battery cracked and leaking?
Is the battery on fire?
I would apply several pounds of baking soda!
---
On Tue, 07 Sep 2010 15:09:27 -0700, Winston<Winston_at_bigbrother.net
wrote:
(...)
I'm saying the equivalent of: "It is risky to run while
holding scissors. I don't and I wish others would at
least *think* about it before strapping on their sneakers."
---
The analogy is weak because it's never a good reason to run with
scissors, while in some cases it may be necessary or desirable to wash
a battery down with a baking soda-water solution, or even to directly
apply baking soda powder to the battery.
---
Sure! Is the battery cracked and leaking?
Is the battery on fire?
I would apply several pounds of baking soda!
---
Cute, but since when is this about post-mortem procedures?
---
Quote:
(Welcome back, John.)
---
You believed my feint, silly boy?
---
Quote:
You are saying that running with scissors can be
perfectly safe if a simple precaution is taken.
---
Your analogy is still weak, but if we _must_ use it, then yes; the
simple precaution being that of carrying the scissors in a closed
case.
If that simple precaution isn't followed, (that of making certain that
the battery cells remains sealed during the baking soda treatment and
following thorough water rinse), I'm saying that a simple medical
procedure promptly followed (addition of enough acid to bring the
electrolyte to the required pH) after the accident, will negate the
effect of the accident.
---
We have agreed to disagree on that point.
perfectly safe if a simple precaution is taken.
---
Your analogy is still weak, but if we _must_ use it, then yes; the
simple precaution being that of carrying the scissors in a closed
case.
If that simple precaution isn't followed, (that of making certain that
the battery cells remains sealed during the baking soda treatment and
following thorough water rinse), I'm saying that a simple medical
procedure promptly followed (addition of enough acid to bring the
electrolyte to the required pH) after the accident, will negate the
effect of the accident.
---
We have agreed to disagree on that point.
---
No, _you_ have.
---
Quote:
Neither of us have provided scientific data to support
our opinions. Sad, but there it is.
our opinions. Sad, but there it is.
---
_I_ have, in the form of a redox equation specifying the starting and
ending substances of a reaction between NaHCO3 and an aqueous solution
of sulfuric acid.
You have not, but continue to proffer opinion and fancied anecdote as
if they were fact.
---
Quote:
You insist on solid statistical data regarding the number
of injuries sustained while running with scissors
before allowing that running with scissors is likely
to be risky under most circumstances for most people.
---
No, before believing that irreversible damage is done by introducing
NaHCO3 into a flooded lead-acid cell, I insist on data regarding the
effects on the performance and life of a flooded lead-acid cell, over
a protracted period of time, by the introduction of NaHCO3 into the
cell, and the possibility of mediation of damage by the prompt
addition of sufficient acid to bring the pH of the cell to its proper
level.
Running with scissors is a totally separate issue.
---
I have no data. I am not interested in gathering the
data. It costs me nothing to walk while holding scissors.
In the absence of several double-blind peer-reviewed studies
conducted at Ivy League schools that find the opposite to
be a more correct finding, I will continue to believe
that everyone is likely to be safer and happier if they
walk carefully while holding any sharp tool.
---
The self-protecting sarcasm after the admission of ignorance is
noted...
---
I meant every word literally at face value.
of injuries sustained while running with scissors
before allowing that running with scissors is likely
to be risky under most circumstances for most people.
---
No, before believing that irreversible damage is done by introducing
NaHCO3 into a flooded lead-acid cell, I insist on data regarding the
effects on the performance and life of a flooded lead-acid cell, over
a protracted period of time, by the introduction of NaHCO3 into the
cell, and the possibility of mediation of damage by the prompt
addition of sufficient acid to bring the pH of the cell to its proper
level.
Running with scissors is a totally separate issue.
---
I have no data. I am not interested in gathering the
data. It costs me nothing to walk while holding scissors.
In the absence of several double-blind peer-reviewed studies
conducted at Ivy League schools that find the opposite to
be a more correct finding, I will continue to believe
that everyone is likely to be safer and happier if they
walk carefully while holding any sharp tool.
---
The self-protecting sarcasm after the admission of ignorance is
noted...
---
I meant every word literally at face value.
---
But you're dealing with a metaphor, so the characteristics you ascribe
to scissors don't map 1:1 to sodium bicarbonate.
---
Quote:
No sarcasm intended.
---
Then you certainly must consider yourself above it all if it would
take:
"several double-blind peer-reviewed studies conducted at Ivy League
schools that find the opposite to be a more correct finding"
This, flying in the face of your admission that you know nothing about
chemistry would certainly lead one to believe that at least the germ
of sarcasm was there.
---
Quote:
---
_We_???
There _is_ no "we".
---
Whoa. You sure rile easy, John. :)
---
That depends on the riler.
You'd grant me that level of control over your emotions?
_We_???
There _is_ no "we".
---
Whoa. You sure rile easy, John. :)
---
That depends on the riler.
You'd grant me that level of control over your emotions?
---
I might let you think that, by responding to your flame with more
incendiary material and, thereby, giving you a chance to stand down.
Eventually, if you choose to escalate, the discussion will get into
the psychological issues which caused you to be disrespectful in the
first place.
---
Quote:
My position is that, at this time, I don't want to consider being
associated with you in other than an adversarial relationship.
---
I don't understand why you feel that way but I accept your
feelings.
associated with you in other than an adversarial relationship.
---
I don't understand why you feel that way but I accept your
feelings.
---
Dumpster the "feelings" crap.
One reason I've chosen the adversarial position is because you've set
yourself up as an authority with respect to the care and feeding of
automotive lead-acid batteries, while admitting ignorance of the
chemistry required to care for and feed them, as well as believing
that their untimely demise, because of accidental sodium bicarbonate
poisoning, is irreversible.
Another is your nonsensical stance that NaHCO3, in contact with even
just the case of the battery, is an invitation to disaster.
As for the former, I've provided a hypothesis that early demise might
not be the case if the accidental addition of the baking soda into the
electrolyte is followed, promptly, by the administration of enough
acid to lower the pH of the affected cell to that required to make it
normal.
You've taken the position that such a cure for the poisoning is likely
to be inefficaceous, but given no reason, other than opinion, to
support that position.
---
Quote:
I continue to agree with your statement "... when baking soda is added
to the electrolyte it reduces the amount af acid in the cell ..".
---
Well, then, "we" agree on that point.
---
Huzzah!
to the electrolyte it reduces the amount af acid in the cell ..".
---
Well, then, "we" agree on that point.
---
Huzzah!
..
..
..
Quote:
Even this afternoon?
---
You don't wear smug very well, especially with egg on your face.
---
I was just asking if we still agreed or not.
Apparently we do. Good! :)
---
You were asking nothing of the sort; what you were trying to do was
put me on the defensive.
---
Do you normally get defensive when confronted with a smug
guy wearing egg on his face?
---
No, I usually get offensive.
---
I'm hip. Why is that?
---
You don't wear smug very well, especially with egg on your face.
---
I was just asking if we still agreed or not.
Apparently we do. Good! :)
---
You were asking nothing of the sort; what you were trying to do was
put me on the defensive.
---
Do you normally get defensive when confronted with a smug
guy wearing egg on his face?
---
No, I usually get offensive.
---
I'm hip. Why is that?
---
A smug guy with egg on his face is also likely to have a chip on his
shoulder, so the best defense is a good offense.
---
Quote:
The cell is compromised and does not perform nearly as well
as it did before.
---
Really?
(Whoops. Spoke too soon.)
Yup. Increasing the pH of the electrolyte in that cell will imbalance
the performance of the cell vis a vis the other cells in series with it.
This will result in accelerated damage and eventually the early failure
of the battery as a whole, as compared to the reliability of a properly
maintained battery.
---
That's what you keep saying, but you offer only opinion, rather than
fact, to back it up.
---
Yup. This is USENET. Nobody needed to prove anything before, so
why start now?
---
Copout.
Regardless of the venue, if you want what you say to be considered
factual, you must prove it.
---
Heh! No. There would be no USENET if we had to support our beliefs
with scientific data. USENET is opinion, mostly. (IMHO)
as it did before.
---
Really?
(Whoops. Spoke too soon.)
Yup. Increasing the pH of the electrolyte in that cell will imbalance
the performance of the cell vis a vis the other cells in series with it.
This will result in accelerated damage and eventually the early failure
of the battery as a whole, as compared to the reliability of a properly
maintained battery.
---
That's what you keep saying, but you offer only opinion, rather than
fact, to back it up.
---
Yup. This is USENET. Nobody needed to prove anything before, so
why start now?
---
Copout.
Regardless of the venue, if you want what you say to be considered
factual, you must prove it.
---
Heh! No. There would be no USENET if we had to support our beliefs
with scientific data. USENET is opinion, mostly. (IMHO)
---
Just because there's a large population of misinformed, opinionated
louts on USENET doesn't change the fact that if you want what you say
to be considered technically factual, you must prove it.
On your thread, subject: "Rental electronics device",
Your answer to:
news:ift576pd9ao20i0lehm5ftdnesip9o7qp7_at_4ax.com
seems to affirm that.
---
Quote:
Instead of pontificating
Have I really been pompous or patronizing John? :)
---
More like condescending.
---
I'm a pontifical, stupid, smug, uneducated, half-baked, condescending,
pompous, persistent, nauseating guy with egg on my face?
---
More or less, yes.
---
Can you cite the double - blind, peer - reviewed studies supporting
that conclusion or is it just another USENET opinion.
Have I really been pompous or patronizing John? :)
---
More like condescending.
---
I'm a pontifical, stupid, smug, uneducated, half-baked, condescending,
pompous, persistent, nauseating guy with egg on my face?
---
More or less, yes.
---
Can you cite the double - blind, peer - reviewed studies supporting
that conclusion or is it just another USENET opinion.
---
I can cite the occurrences where those sorts of behavior became
self-evident, but IO'm afraid we'll have to wait for the peer-reviewed
studies until you become important enough to attract academia's
interest.
---
Quote:
Would you say I'm more pompous than smug or more stupid than
pontifical?
---
More pompous than smug and more pontifical than stupid.
---
More persistent than nauseating?
---
Yes, and annoying as well.
---
Why did I put egg on my face? Lack of education?
---
Probably.
---
I shall put that on my resume.
pontifical?
---
More pompous than smug and more pontifical than stupid.
---
More persistent than nauseating?
---
Yes, and annoying as well.
---
Why did I put egg on my face? Lack of education?
---
Probably.
---
I shall put that on my resume.
---
I suppose it would look better than something with just your name on
it but, when you add it, you should probably phrase it:
"How did I get egg on my face?"
---
Quote:
with some half-baked, uneducated guess, how
about if you define "nearly" and then do a little research and come up
with some numbers to back it up?
---
Because I have other, more important things to do with limited resources
and time.
---
Then I suggest you quit this thread and get on with it.
---
You do as well, I assume.
---
You assume incorrectly.
---
Then I am sad for you.
---
I see, everyone should be like you.
---
Friendly. Curious. Involved. Concerned. Generous. Thoughtful. Gregarious.
Yes, I agree with you.
about if you define "nearly" and then do a little research and come up
with some numbers to back it up?
---
Because I have other, more important things to do with limited resources
and time.
---
Then I suggest you quit this thread and get on with it.
---
You do as well, I assume.
---
You assume incorrectly.
---
Then I am sad for you.
---
I see, everyone should be like you.
---
Friendly. Curious. Involved. Concerned. Generous. Thoughtful. Gregarious.
Yes, I agree with you.
---
And should I wear your brand of rose-colored glasses?
---
Quote:
Whether a cell was "damaged" or not depends on how much NaHCO3 was
allowed to fall into it and how long before the lost acid was
replenished.
Yes. I agree. The effect of a few molecules of baking powder can
probably be overridden by a good equalizing charge.
---
It's not baking powder, it's baking soda,
Got me! Baking soda is the correct term.
Forgive my hyperbole.
---
Hyperbole? Hardly!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperbole
---
"...a rhetorical device in which statements are exaggerated.
It may be used to evoke strong feelings or to create a strong
impression, but is not meant to be taken literally."
My tongue - in - cheek statement about 'a few molecules' is
hyperbole, intended to emphasize my concern about bases and
wet cell lead acid batteries.
---
The point made was that you incorrectly identified the base as baking
powder, which has nothing to do with the amount of base introduced
into the cell.
OTOH, you had baking soda as the only thing left in the cell
after the reaction. We'll call it a draw.
allowed to fall into it and how long before the lost acid was
replenished.
Yes. I agree. The effect of a few molecules of baking powder can
probably be overridden by a good equalizing charge.
---
It's not baking powder, it's baking soda,
Got me! Baking soda is the correct term.
Forgive my hyperbole.
---
Hyperbole? Hardly!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperbole
---
"...a rhetorical device in which statements are exaggerated.
It may be used to evoke strong feelings or to create a strong
impression, but is not meant to be taken literally."
My tongue - in - cheek statement about 'a few molecules' is
hyperbole, intended to emphasize my concern about bases and
wet cell lead acid batteries.
---
The point made was that you incorrectly identified the base as baking
powder, which has nothing to do with the amount of base introduced
into the cell.
OTOH, you had baking soda as the only thing left in the cell
after the reaction. We'll call it a draw.
---
Hmm... there's that arrogant: "I'll take charge of this one and you'll
call it a draw because I say so."
I've explained, more times than I care to think about, that what's
left in the _electrolyte_, after the reaction, is water, sulfuric
acid, and sodium sulfate.
What is there about that that you don't understand?
---
Quote:
Consequently, your smartass "request for forgiveness" had nothing to
do with hyperbole and was merely an attempt to negate the effect of
yoyur error.
---
I forgive your boo - boo, too John.
do with hyperbole and was merely an attempt to negate the effect of
yoyur error.
---
I forgive your boo - boo, too John.
---
My trypo?
Please...
---
Quote:
"..two molecules.." was not intended literally.
---
Where do you see "..two molecules.."???
---
Quote:
The fact remains that bases
and wet cell lead acid batteries don't mix.
---
Oil and water don't mix, but baking soda and sulfuric acid certainly
do, which is part of the reason for the problem.
---
How can we avoid this problem?
---
Education.
---
We agree twice in one day! Good!
Neither of us has the time, resources and inclination to do
the real science,
---
You asked about being pompous earlier; well, there you have it.
---
Pompous?
Ah! in relation to being accused of pontification!
---
No, in relation to your assuming that you know best what I should do
with my time and resources, and that my inclination to do the real
science should be the same as yours in order to make your position
more secure.
---
I still don't have the time, resources or inclination to do the science.
I assumed that this issue was as relatively unimportant to you as
it is to me.
and wet cell lead acid batteries don't mix.
---
Oil and water don't mix, but baking soda and sulfuric acid certainly
do, which is part of the reason for the problem.
---
How can we avoid this problem?
---
Education.
---
We agree twice in one day! Good!
Neither of us has the time, resources and inclination to do
the real science,
---
You asked about being pompous earlier; well, there you have it.
---
Pompous?
Ah! in relation to being accused of pontification!
---
No, in relation to your assuming that you know best what I should do
with my time and resources, and that my inclination to do the real
science should be the same as yours in order to make your position
more secure.
---
I still don't have the time, resources or inclination to do the science.
I assumed that this issue was as relatively unimportant to you as
it is to me.
---
Yes, that should have been evident from the paucity of my posts.
---
Quote:
I merely asked if you were really indicating that you were interested
in scientifically studying the issue.
in scientifically studying the issue.
---
Your: "Neither of us has the time, resources and inclination to do
the real science," belies that.
---
Quote:
You implied that you had the time, resources and inclination to do the
real science; I was merely being supportive of that. I remain so.
real science; I was merely being supportive of that. I remain so.
---
Your: "Neither of us has the time, resources and inclination to do
the real science," belies that.
---
Quote:
(...)
*I* don't have the time, resources and inclination.
Are you saying that you do? That's great news!
Please let me know when your paper exits peer review.
---
Why?
You obviously wouldn't understand it, so what would be the point?
---
We are surrounded by folks who would appreciate a solid
scientific foundation rather than have to listen to more
'hand waving', IMHO.
Besides, I *love* to read stuff that I don't understand!
---
So far so good, apparently.
---
Quote:
And what the fuck is it with you and your persistent and nauseating:
"Let's agree to this" and "Let's agree to that" bleating?
It's part of my pontifical, smug, condescending, pompous personality.
---
Well, there is that, but I think it's more like trying to make
yourself feel less alone by creating synthetic bonds.
"Let's agree to this" and "Let's agree to that" bleating?
It's part of my pontifical, smug, condescending, pompous personality.
---
Well, there is that, but I think it's more like trying to make
yourself feel less alone by creating synthetic bonds.
---
Snipped parting shots...
---
JF
John Fields
Guest
Guest
Thu Sep 09, 2010 2:15 pm
On Wed, 08 Sep 2010 14:23:39 -0700,
"JosephKK"<quiettechblue_at_yahoo.com> wrote:
Quote:
Wow, did i ever screw up on this one.
---
Good man! :-)
---
JF
Winston
Guest
Guest
Thu Sep 09, 2010 5:30 pm
On 9/9/2010 6:08 AM, John Fields wrote:
(...)
Quote:
Sure! Is the battery cracked and leaking?
Is the battery on fire?
I would apply several pounds of baking soda!
---
Cute, but since when is this about post-mortem procedures?
---
"while in some cases it may be necessary or desirable to wash
a battery down with a baking soda-water solution, or even to directly
apply baking soda powder to the battery.
Is the battery on fire?
I would apply several pounds of baking soda!
---
Cute, but since when is this about post-mortem procedures?
---
"while in some cases it may be necessary or desirable to wash
a battery down with a baking soda-water solution, or even to directly
apply baking soda powder to the battery.
Are ya really disagreeing with my agreement with your statement?
Quote:
(Welcome back, John.)
---
You believed my feint, silly boy?
---
---
You believed my feint, silly boy?
---
Just call me "Friendly. Curious. Involved. Concerned. Generous.
Thoughtful. Gregarious and Trusting."
Quote:
You are saying that running with scissors can be
perfectly safe if a simple precaution is taken.
---
Your analogy is still weak, but if we _must_ use it, then yes; the
simple precaution being that of carrying the scissors in a closed
case.
If that simple precaution isn't followed, (that of making certain that
the battery cells remains sealed during the baking soda treatment and
following thorough water rinse), I'm saying that a simple medical
procedure promptly followed (addition of enough acid to bring the
electrolyte to the required pH) after the accident, will negate the
effect of the accident.
---
We have agreed to disagree on that point.
---
No, _you_ have.
---
perfectly safe if a simple precaution is taken.
---
Your analogy is still weak, but if we _must_ use it, then yes; the
simple precaution being that of carrying the scissors in a closed
case.
If that simple precaution isn't followed, (that of making certain that
the battery cells remains sealed during the baking soda treatment and
following thorough water rinse), I'm saying that a simple medical
procedure promptly followed (addition of enough acid to bring the
electrolyte to the required pH) after the accident, will negate the
effect of the accident.
---
We have agreed to disagree on that point.
---
No, _you_ have.
---
So then you agree with me or you are neutral on the subject?
That's what it means when you "don't disagree", yes?
Quote:
Neither of us have provided scientific data to support
our opinions. Sad, but there it is.
---
_I_ have, in the form of a redox equation specifying the starting and
ending substances of a reaction between NaHCO3 and an aqueous solution
of sulfuric acid.
our opinions. Sad, but there it is.
---
_I_ have, in the form of a redox equation specifying the starting and
ending substances of a reaction between NaHCO3 and an aqueous solution
of sulfuric acid.
The redox equation proves my point as far as it goes, John.
Because of that, I continue to contend that it is economically
risky for a person to bring a base into contact with his or her
wet plate lead acid battery, especially since, all else being
equal, that battery can continue to perform acceptably well without
any such introduction.
I've never heard of an individual who rescued a battery simply by
replacing the electrolyte in one cell. (Arguably one could easily
ruin a battery through a specific gravity imbalance of one cell
vis a vis the others, especially by mixing up an insufficiently
acidic batch of electrolyte for that one cell.)
For example, industry practice for lead acid wet cells is to maintain
variation in SG to less than 0.02 (two points) from cell to cell.
(That is an accuracy of less than +- 1%).
See the paragraph "Equalizing Charge" at the bottom of page 14:
http://www.dekabatteries.com/assets/base/0656.pdf
(...)
Quote:
---
No, before believing that irreversible damage is done by introducing
NaHCO3 into a flooded lead-acid cell, I insist on data regarding the
effects on the performance and life of a flooded lead-acid cell, over
a protracted period of time, by the introduction of NaHCO3 into the
cell, and the possibility of mediation of damage by the prompt
addition of sufficient acid to bring the pH of the cell to its proper
level.
No, before believing that irreversible damage is done by introducing
NaHCO3 into a flooded lead-acid cell, I insist on data regarding the
effects on the performance and life of a flooded lead-acid cell, over
a protracted period of time, by the introduction of NaHCO3 into the
cell, and the possibility of mediation of damage by the prompt
addition of sufficient acid to bring the pH of the cell to its proper
level.
That mediation would not likely happen at all,
let alone 'in a timely manner', as a practical matter.
Quote:
Running with scissors is a totally separate issue.
---
I have no data. I am not interested in gathering the
data. It costs me nothing to walk while holding scissors.
In the absence of several double-blind peer-reviewed studies
conducted at Ivy League schools that find the opposite to
be a more correct finding, I will continue to believe
that everyone is likely to be safer and happier if they
walk carefully while holding any sharp tool.
---
The self-protecting sarcasm after the admission of ignorance is
noted...
---
I meant every word literally at face value.
---
But you're dealing with a metaphor, so the characteristics you ascribe
to scissors don't map 1:1 to sodium bicarbonate.
---
100% accurate metaphors are as rare as a budget surplus
but not quite as rare as 'management ethics'. :)
(Both risky behaviors are unnecessary.)
Quote:
No sarcasm intended.
---
Then you certainly must consider yourself above it all if it would
take:
"several double-blind peer-reviewed studies conducted at Ivy League
schools that find the opposite to be a more correct finding"
This, flying in the face of your admission that you know nothing about
chemistry would certainly lead one to believe that at least the germ
of sarcasm was there.
---
Then you certainly must consider yourself above it all if it would
take:
"several double-blind peer-reviewed studies conducted at Ivy League
schools that find the opposite to be a more correct finding"
This, flying in the face of your admission that you know nothing about
chemistry would certainly lead one to believe that at least the germ
of sarcasm was there.
Um. John?
Taken in context the entire statement means that I am content with
a common - sense answer but that I remain open to change, if Science
should produce a different, more correct answer.
That's the way I roll. :)
Is there a problem? I mean that literally. No sarcasm.
Quote:
---
---
_We_???
There _is_ no "we".
---
Whoa. You sure rile easy, John. :)
---
That depends on the riler.
You'd grant me that level of control over your emotions?
---
I might let you think that, by responding to your flame with more
incendiary material and, thereby, giving you a chance to stand down.
---
_We_???
There _is_ no "we".
---
Whoa. You sure rile easy, John. :)
---
That depends on the riler.
You'd grant me that level of control over your emotions?
---
I might let you think that, by responding to your flame with more
incendiary material and, thereby, giving you a chance to stand down.
Flame? What flame?
How good a flame could I have produced being a:
pontifical, stupid, smug, uneducated, half-baked, condescending,
pompous, persistent, nauseating, uppity guy with egg on my face?
Quote:
Eventually, if you choose to escalate, the discussion will get into
the psychological issues which caused you to be disrespectful in the
first place.
---
the psychological issues which caused you to be disrespectful in the
first place.
---
My boss used to call me 'uppity'. (I added that to my description.)
My respect gets earned.
For some, it is earned instantaneously.
For others, well..... :)
Quote:
My position is that, at this time, I don't want to consider being
associated with you in other than an adversarial relationship.
---
I don't understand why you feel that way but I accept your
feelings.
---
Dumpster the "feelings" crap.
associated with you in other than an adversarial relationship.
---
I don't understand why you feel that way but I accept your
feelings.
---
Dumpster the "feelings" crap.
Hee hee. :)
Quote:
One reason I've chosen the adversarial position is because you've set
yourself up as an authority with respect to the care and feeding of
automotive lead-acid batteries, while admitting ignorance of the
chemistry required to care for and feed them, as well as believing
that their untimely demise, because of accidental sodium bicarbonate
poisoning, is irreversible.
yourself up as an authority with respect to the care and feeding of
automotive lead-acid batteries, while admitting ignorance of the
chemistry required to care for and feed them, as well as believing
that their untimely demise, because of accidental sodium bicarbonate
poisoning, is irreversible.
I claimed no authority. Well OK 'informed consumer'.
I've had good - to excellent performance from many car batteries that
have been under my care for many years. I must be doing something
right. :)
As a practical matter, I *do* believe that sodium bicarbonate poisoning
of a wet cell lead acid battery is irreversible.
You got *that* right.
Quote:
Another is your nonsensical stance that NaHCO3, in contact with even
just the case of the battery, is an invitation to disaster.
just the case of the battery, is an invitation to disaster.
'Disaster'? No. Economically risky? Yes.
Quote:
As for the former, I've provided a hypothesis that early demise might
not be the case if the accidental addition of the baking soda into the
electrolyte is followed, promptly, by the administration of enough
acid to lower the pH of the affected cell to that required to make it
normal.
You've taken the position that such a cure for the poisoning is likely
to be inefficaceous, but given no reason, other than opinion, to
support that position.
---
Here's more opinion:
not be the case if the accidental addition of the baking soda into the
electrolyte is followed, promptly, by the administration of enough
acid to lower the pH of the affected cell to that required to make it
normal.
You've taken the position that such a cure for the poisoning is likely
to be inefficaceous, but given no reason, other than opinion, to
support that position.
---
Here's more opinion:
Us consumers are highly unlikely to have the knowledge, tools and
skill necessary to carry out that particular rescue in a sufficiently
timely manner, as a practical matter, even if it did work, IMHO.
Personally, I would much rather spend the odd $100 for a replacement
battery than even attempt to match battery acid concentration to within
less than +- 1%.
Most of us will simply pay someone who possesses a tiny subset of
those resources. *That* person does not attempt to repair the
battery either. They just swap in a new battery and send us on our way.
Let's keep it real, y'all.
(...)
Quote:
---
A smug guy with egg on his face is also likely to have a chip on his
shoulder, so the best defense is a good offense.
---
A smug guy with egg on his face is also likely to have a chip on his
shoulder, so the best defense is a good offense.
---
Can I quote you?
(...)
Quote:
---
Just because there's a large population of misinformed, opinionated
louts on USENET doesn't change the fact that if you want what you say
to be considered technically factual, you must prove it.
Just because there's a large population of misinformed, opinionated
louts on USENET doesn't change the fact that if you want what you say
to be considered technically factual, you must prove it.
If I get out of this just by admitting that I'm a "misinformed,
opinionated lout" can I keep the egg on my face?
(...)
Quote:
---
I can cite the occurrences where those sorts of behavior became
self-evident, but IO'm afraid we'll have to wait for the peer-reviewed
studies until you become important enough to attract academia's
interest.
---
I can cite the occurrences where those sorts of behavior became
self-evident, but IO'm afraid we'll have to wait for the peer-reviewed
studies until you become important enough to attract academia's
interest.
---
No worries mate.
I pride myself on my unimportance.
(One must excel at something, or what is a Heaven for?)
(...)
Quote:
---
I suppose it would look better than something with just your name on
it but, when you add it, you should probably phrase it:
"How did I get egg on my face?"
---
I suppose it would look better than something with just your name on
it but, when you add it, you should probably phrase it:
"How did I get egg on my face?"
---
It's just a cost of being 'sunny side up', I suppose.
(...)
Quote:
---
And should I wear your brand of rose-colored glasses?
---
And should I wear your brand of rose-colored glasses?
---
Why not? You have every right to, in most states.
(...)
Quote:
OTOH, you had baking soda as the only thing left in the cell
after the reaction. We'll call it a draw.
---
Hmm... there's that arrogant: "I'll take charge of this one and you'll
call it a draw because I say so."
after the reaction. We'll call it a draw.
---
Hmm... there's that arrogant: "I'll take charge of this one and you'll
call it a draw because I say so."
Just a suggestion, John.
(Takes deep breath)
An arrogant, pontifical, stupid, smug, uneducated, half-baked,
condescending, pompous, persistent, nauseating, uppity guy
with egg on my face?
I'm not insulting though, am I John?
Quote:
I've explained, more times than I care to think about, that what's
left in the _electrolyte_, after the reaction, is water, sulfuric
acid, and sodium sulfate.
left in the _electrolyte_, after the reaction, is water, sulfuric
acid, and sodium sulfate.
That is what you meant to say. Yes.
Quote:
Consequently, your smartass "request for forgiveness" had nothing to
do with hyperbole and was merely an attempt to negate the effect of
yoyur error.
---
I forgive your boo - boo, too John.
---
My trypo?
Please...
---
do with hyperbole and was merely an attempt to negate the effect of
yoyur error.
---
I forgive your boo - boo, too John.
---
My trypo?
Please...
---
You are welcome.
(A trypo is when you intend to misspell,
but have only a 50% chance of success?)
Quote:
"..two molecules.." was not intended literally.
---
Where do you see "..two molecules.."???
---
Earlier I engaged in a hyperbolic statement about an equalizing
charge being sufficient to balance the cell - to - cell electrolytic
acidity even if as much as two molecules of baking soda were
introduced into one of the cells in an otherwise functional battery.
My mention of the 'two molecules' was merely humor and not intended
to be taken as fact. Perhaps as many as four molecules could be
counteracted if the cell were large enough. <G>
(...)
Quote:
Neither of us has the time, resources and inclination to do
the real science,
---
You asked about being pompous earlier; well, there you have it.
---
Pompous?
Ah! in relation to being accused of pontification!
---
No, in relation to your assuming that you know best what I should do
with my time and resources, and that my inclination to do the real
science should be the same as yours in order to make your position
more secure.
---
I still don't have the time, resources or inclination to do the science.
I assumed that this issue was as relatively unimportant to you as
it is to me.
---
Yes, that should have been evident from the paucity of my posts.
---
the real science,
---
You asked about being pompous earlier; well, there you have it.
---
Pompous?
Ah! in relation to being accused of pontification!
---
No, in relation to your assuming that you know best what I should do
with my time and resources, and that my inclination to do the real
science should be the same as yours in order to make your position
more secure.
---
I still don't have the time, resources or inclination to do the science.
I assumed that this issue was as relatively unimportant to you as
it is to me.
---
Yes, that should have been evident from the paucity of my posts.
---
I do find your posts 'insufficient' but not in terms of quantity
or length.
Quote:
I merely asked if you were really indicating that you were interested
in scientifically studying the issue.
---
Your: "Neither of us has the time, resources and inclination to do
the real science," belies that.
---
in scientifically studying the issue.
---
Your: "Neither of us has the time, resources and inclination to do
the real science," belies that.
---
You disagreed with my characterization.
Are you disagreeing with your disagreement now?
(Please say 'no' because I want to go on record as prompting someone
to disagree disagreeing with their disagreement.)
Quote:
(...)
*I* don't have the time, resources and inclination.
Are you saying that you do? That's great news!
Please let me know when your paper exits peer review.
---
Why?
You obviously wouldn't understand it, so what would be the point?
---
We are surrounded by folks who would appreciate a solid
scientific foundation rather than have to listen to more
'hand waving', IMHO.
Besides, I *love* to read stuff that I don't understand! :)
---
So far so good, apparently.
---
And what the fuck is it with you and your persistent and nauseating:
"Let's agree to this" and "Let's agree to that" bleating?
It's part of my pontifical, smug, condescending, pompous personality.
---
Well, there is that, but I think it's more like trying to make
yourself feel less alone by creating synthetic bonds.
---
Snipped parting shots...
*I* don't have the time, resources and inclination.
Are you saying that you do? That's great news!
Please let me know when your paper exits peer review.
---
Why?
You obviously wouldn't understand it, so what would be the point?
---
We are surrounded by folks who would appreciate a solid
scientific foundation rather than have to listen to more
'hand waving', IMHO.
Besides, I *love* to read stuff that I don't understand! :)
---
So far so good, apparently.
---
And what the fuck is it with you and your persistent and nauseating:
"Let's agree to this" and "Let's agree to that" bleating?
It's part of my pontifical, smug, condescending, pompous personality.
---
Well, there is that, but I think it's more like trying to make
yourself feel less alone by creating synthetic bonds.
---
Snipped parting shots...
'Parting shots'? Why would you say that?
Both of us are much more honest than we are wise, after all.
--Winston <--- Just call me "Honest. Friendly. Curious. Involved.
Concerned. Generous. Thoughtful. Gregarious and Trusting."
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